Why you want a paramedic in the field and not a doc

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igcgnerd

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I was recently on a call where we had a doc doing a ridealong. This doc was apparently in a family practice residency doing an ems rotation or something. The patient was a person found unconscious by their child coming home from school. We had no witnesses to tell us what had happened. So we walk into the room and see the patient there. This doc walks past me approaches the patient and picks them up by the head and tries to rose them by moving their head. My jaw hit the floor. Never in my life have I seen such a total disreguard for c spine imobilization when trauma hasn't been ruled out. :eek:

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igcgnerd said:
I was recently on a call where we had a doc doing a ridealong. This doc was apparently in a family practice residency doing an ems rotation or something. The patient was a person found unconscious by their child coming home from school. We had no witnesses to tell us what had happened. So we walk into the room and see the patient there. This doc walks past me approaches the patient and picks them up by the head and tries to rose them by moving their head. My jaw hit the floor. Never in my life have I seen such a total disreguard for c spine imobilization when trauma hasn't been ruled out. :eek:

Please don't start a flame war. I've recently gotten into with other people on this forum and have no desire to on this issue. I have no defense for the physician in this issue, but we ALL have anectodal stories where people have done the wrong thing, paramedics and docs alike.

Understand the following, as you say you should not have a doc in the field but a paramedic I could have just as easily started a post that said "why docs should be in the field and not paramedics." But the difference is my post would have had scientific evidence behind it.

For example, I think I'd rather have a physician intubate me. Just be careful, physicians go through a lot of training to be able to make clinical decisions that you cannot make as an EMT-B.

How about being a patient in florida:

Ann Emerg Med. 2001 Jan;37(1):32-7. Related Articles, Links

Misplaced endotracheal tubes by paramedics in an urban emergency medical services system.

Katz SH, Falk JL.

Department of Emergency Medicine, JFK Medical Center, Atlantis, FL, USA.

STUDY OBJECTIVE: To determine the incidence of unrecognized, misplaced endotracheal tubes inserted by paramedics in a large urban, decentralized emergency medical services (EMS) system. METHODS: We conducted a prospective, observational study of patients intubated in the field by paramedics before emergency department arrival. During an 8-month period, emergency physicians assessed tube position at ED arrival using a combination of auscultation, end-tidal carbon dioxide (ETCO(2)) monitoring, and direct laryngoscopy. RESULTS: A total of 108 intubated patients were studied. On arrival in the ED, 25% (27/108) of patients were found to have improperly placed endotracheal tubes. Of the misplaced tubes, 67% (18/27) were found to be in the esophagus, whereas in 33% (9/27), the tip of the tube was found to be in the hypopharynx, above the vocal cords. Of the patients with misplaced tubes noted in the hypopharynx, 33% (3/9) died while in the ED. For the patients found to have tubes in the hypopharynx, 56% (5/9) had evidence of ETCO(2) on ED arrival. For the patients found to have esophageal tube placement on ED arrival, 56% (10/18) died in the ED. Esophageal intubation was associated with an absence of expired CO(2) (17/18, 94%) on ED arrival. The single patient in this subset with a recordable ETCO(2) had been nasotracheally intubated with the tip of the endotracheal tube noted in the esophagus while spontaneous respirations were present. On patient arrival to the ED, 63% (68/108) of the patients had direct laryngoscopy in addition to ETCO(2) determination. All patients had ETCO(2) evaluation performed on arrival. All patients in whom an absence of ETCO(2) was demonstrated on patient arrival underwent direct laryngoscopy. In cases in which direct laryngoscopy was not performed, the attending physician documented the ETCO(2) in conjunction with the presence of bilateral breath sounds. CONCLUSION: The incidence of out-of-hospital, unrecognized, misplaced endotracheal tubes in our community is excessively high and may be reflective of the incidence occurring in other communities. Data from other communities are needed to clarify the scope of this alarming issue.

PMID: 11145768 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
sorry wasn't trying to generalize for all docs just trying to vent some frustration over this one particular person
 
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viostorm said:
Please don't start a flame war. I've recently gotten into with other people on this forum and have no desire to on this issue. I have no defense for the physician in this issue, but we ALL have anectodal stories where people have done the wrong thing, paramedics and docs alike.

Understand the following, as you say you should not have a doc in the field but a paramedic I could have just as easily started a post that said "why docs should be in the field and not paramedics." But the difference is my post would have had scientific evidence behind it.

For example, I think I'd rather have a physician intubate me. Just be careful, physicians go through a lot of training to be able to make clinical decisions that you cannot make as an EMT-B.

How about being a patient in florida:

Ann Emerg Med. 2001 Jan;37(1):32-7. Related Articles, Links

Misplaced endotracheal tubes by paramedics in an urban emergency medical services system.

Katz SH, Falk JL.

Department of Emergency Medicine, JFK Medical Center, Atlantis, FL, USA.

STUDY OBJECTIVE: To determine the incidence of unrecognized, misplaced endotracheal tubes inserted by paramedics in a large urban, decentralized emergency medical services (EMS) system. METHODS: We conducted a prospective, observational study of patients intubated in the field by paramedics before emergency department arrival. During an 8-month period, emergency physicians assessed tube position at ED arrival using a combination of auscultation, end-tidal carbon dioxide (ETCO(2)) monitoring, and direct laryngoscopy. RESULTS: A total of 108 intubated patients were studied. On arrival in the ED, 25% (27/108) of patients were found to have improperly placed endotracheal tubes. Of the misplaced tubes, 67% (18/27) were found to be in the esophagus, whereas in 33% (9/27), the tip of the tube was found to be in the hypopharynx, above the vocal cords. Of the patients with misplaced tubes noted in the hypopharynx, 33% (3/9) died while in the ED. For the patients found to have tubes in the hypopharynx, 56% (5/9) had evidence of ETCO(2) on ED arrival. For the patients found to have esophageal tube placement on ED arrival, 56% (10/18) died in the ED. Esophageal intubation was associated with an absence of expired CO(2) (17/18, 94%) on ED arrival. The single patient in this subset with a recordable ETCO(2) had been nasotracheally intubated with the tip of the endotracheal tube noted in the esophagus while spontaneous respirations were present. On patient arrival to the ED, 63% (68/108) of the patients had direct laryngoscopy in addition to ETCO(2) determination. All patients had ETCO(2) evaluation performed on arrival. All patients in whom an absence of ETCO(2) was demonstrated on patient arrival underwent direct laryngoscopy. In cases in which direct laryngoscopy was not performed, the attending physician documented the ETCO(2) in conjunction with the presence of bilateral breath sounds. CONCLUSION: The incidence of out-of-hospital, unrecognized, misplaced endotracheal tubes in our community is excessively high and may be reflective of the incidence occurring in other communities. Data from other communities are needed to clarify the scope of this alarming issue.

PMID: 11145768 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


You mean you'd rather have a properly trained physician intubate you. i.e. emergency physician, anesthesiologist, pulmonogist, or intensivist. I wouldn't want just about any other physician intubating me personally. Proper endotracheal tube placement is about experience with laryngoscopy--mostly sheer numbers, not advanced education. It's just like PIV insertion, lac repair, pushing an IV drug, etc...you could train a monkey to do it. I don't think most paramedics will ever be expert at intubation...you just don't get to do very many in the field, and the ones you do are in very uncontrolled, insanely chaotic environments.
 
I agree that many (not all) docs are not competent in the field. The biggest problem is that many who aren't think that the are. I'd say that if this guy was doing a ride along for some reason he should have known what his boundaries were, ie. he should have been told not to touch the patient until the scene is secure, etc. before he got on the rig.
There are some things that almost no doc without EMS experiece will know about such as Cspine (no doc will know how to appy a KED or do a standing CSP takedown), working a field gurney, scene safety, switching a regulator on an O2 tank and so on. If you really want them out of your way hand them someting they won't recognize like a Halligan bar, tell them it's a backup airway device and tell them to stand in the corner and have it ready to go.
And as for the flame war I'll just recount my interaction with a medic from a few years back:
Medic: She's a 40's yo F sp high speed MVA, Starred windshield, GCS5 with an unstable midface.
Me: (Pulling on the mandible and watching it slide like a drawer) Yeah, it's unstable. Why did you do a nasal intubation?
Medic: Oh she's just gonna die anyway.
Not making it up. Fortunatley pt didn't have a nasal ventriculostomy. She did live but was brain damaged from the head injury. ;)
 
"Emergency Medicine - Saving the world from seeing its primary care doctor."

Oh dear God that's ever so true
 
I would like to note that in the absence of evidence of a mechanism in the home (gunshot wound, pt lying at the bottom of the stairs) it strikes me as highly unlikely that the patient suffered significant truama. What could they have fallen from if they are lying in their bedroom? Unless the patient is elderly, or there is some reason to suspect some sort of chronic osteoporosis it is unlikly that they have a c-spine injury from a fall from standing height. The most likly reason that someone is lying on the floor of their house unresponsive in the absence of signs of truama is a medical emergency.

I agree that moving the head around more than nesseceray should be avoided, and is a bad way to try to wake people up. But I also wouldn't c-spine everyone I found unresponsive in their house. (unless it was to put them on the board for compressions, or place a c-collar to prevent ET tube dislocation)
 
jbar said:
Unless the patient is elderly, or there is some reason to suspect some sort of chronic osteoporosis it is unlikly that they have a c-spine injury from a fall from standing height.


Its a CYA thing though, and theres no way to know whether the pt really did have that chronic osteoporosis (or some other hx) that predisposed him/her to a spinal injury. Its a saftey thing for the patient, but mostly a saftey thing for the provider. With people as sue-happy as they are these days, I wouldnt take the chance.

Thats from the BLS perspective though. In my system they let medics clear c-spine with a few quick checks for pain. Thats another option.
 
fiznat said:
Its a CYA thing though, and theres no way to know whether the pt really did have that chronic osteoporosis (or some other hx) t
That's true, though you have to draw the line at some point. We could start IVs on every patient we see just in case they have some bleeding disorder and are about to die even though they deny any history.
My point was that give the age of the patient, which I don't know from the OPs senario, you have differnt chances of such a degenerative bone disorder. A 20 year old male lying on his floor has a very very low chance of such problems. While no history does make diagnosis more diffecult, that doesn't mean we have to assume that any random medical problem is likely in the patient. There should be something that rasises your index of suspicion for c-spine injury. In some cases this could just be age, unresponsive 85 year olds are going to get back boarded.

In my system EMTs can "clear" spines, but that protocol only comes into play if there is a mechanism or suspected mechanism. Again, the absence of knowing exactly what happened isn't the same as there being a mechanism. While it is good to cover your butt, c-spine precations aren't benign. They cause backpain, skin breakdowns, expose the patient to xrays, tie up backboards, and increase healthcare costs. If in doubt, definatly backboard. But I don't agree with backboarding just beucase you haven't done enough of an assesment to decide that there likely isn't a mechanism.
 
I just re-read the OP, and I agree with it. The OP is quite right that the head shouldn't get moved until trauma has been ruled out, though that can be done manually until one sorts out the situation.
 
igcgnerd said:
I was recently on a call where we had a doc doing a ridealong. This doc was apparently in a family practice residency doing an ems rotation or something. The patient was a person found unconscious by their child coming home from school. We had no witnesses to tell us what had happened. So we walk into the room and see the patient there. This doc walks past me approaches the patient and picks them up by the head and tries to rose them by moving their head. My jaw hit the floor. Never in my life have I seen such a total disreguard for c spine imobilization when trauma hasn't been ruled out. :eek:

Why would a family practitioner know anything about emergency medicine?

Let's not generalize, however. I'm sure an emergency medicine physician would have handled the patient appropriately.

The obvious concern, then, is that many emergeny departments are employing family physicians instead of emergency physicians.
 
jbar said:
I just re-read the OP, and I agree with it. The OP is quite right that the head shouldn't get moved until trauma has been ruled out, though that can be done manually until one sorts out the situation.

I think this is where both the "art" and "science" of medicine come into play.

I certainly don't immobilze all unconscious patients I find.

The longer I spend in medicine the more I realize it is best not to be too extreme about anything. As in, don't be someone immobilizes everything, and don't be someone who immobilizes nothing. I think the best care is found when treating "shades of grey."

If you do say the pt is at risk for spinal trauma, then I don't think there are any criteria/protocols that will rule out injury on an unconscious patient.
 
We had a FP resident who was "assigned" to our ambulance for a rotation because he pissed off our medical director (who is still a NREMT-P in addition to being a boarded EM doc) by bitching about how incompetent the medics (actually EMT-I's) at our service were....well, seeing as our MD trained probably 3/4 of us directly, this resident opened his mouth and inserted his foot.

He was told (and I quote) "You disrespect them you disrespect me, and if you get in their way or try to pull whatever *expletive deleted* rank you think you have and so help me God I will do everything in my considerable power at this hospital to make sure you find the door for unprofessional conduct." He then turns to me and tells me, "If he smarts off put him in his place."

God that was a fun shift....the kid just didn't seem to grasp that I was in charge regardless of the letters after his name. It took a cop pointing out it's a felony to interfere with my doing my job to get him to shut up.
 
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"If you really want them out of your way hand them someting they won't recognize like a Halligan bar, tell them it's a backup airway device and tell them to stand in the corner and have it ready to go."

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I am so going to do that to someone....
 
igcgnerd said:
I was recently on a call where we had a doc doing a ridealong. This doc was apparently in a family practice residency doing an ems rotation or something. The patient was a person found unconscious by their child coming home from school. We had no witnesses to tell us what had happened. So we walk into the room and see the patient there. This doc walks past me approaches the patient and picks them up by the head and tries to rose them by moving their head. My jaw hit the floor. Never in my life have I seen such a total disreguard for c spine imobilization when trauma hasn't been ruled out. :eek:


Why is he on this rotation? Is he learning about EMS? If so, teach him.
 
Being a medic and now a doc, I find it comical when I hear EMT's and medics cry out their pie holes about how crappy Dr. X is. 99% of the time it is an ego thing and the medic doesn't possibly have the background and experience to even begin to rationalize the decisions a doctor makes. Sure Mr. medic, you have a finite spectrum of knowledge for which you are a so called expert, but lets see you apply that knowledge outside your area of expertise. The MD and the DO degree are the universal "Jacks of all Trades" degrees. And above that, an FM doc is highly knowledgable about EM. I would say except for EM docs, they are the next most highly trained doc to work in the ED. Many a medic has dropped off a patient to an FM doc and never known it. Some of the best EM docs are in fact not EM boarded. The profession is younger than the medic profession.

Word to the wise medics...walk a mile in a docs shoes before you begin to question the things they do on a daily basis. We all do it, and I am certainly guilty of it in my former life. But I know better now. And don't kid yourselves medics, you think because a Doc doesn't know how to operate a KED that he is an idiot. But I can show you about a hundred pieces of medical equipment we use in the ED that you wouldn't have a clue how to use. Start with a triple lumen central line perhaps. Don't forget that you are still technicians, without even the longitude to truly think in a critical fashion. Everything you do is protocol driven whether you want to admit it or not. And who do you think writes and signs off on those protocols giving you the authority to do the stuff you do? I know places where they don't even let their medics intubate because they routinely make things worse. Your livlihood would not exist without us docs.
 
corpsmanUP said:
Being a medic and now a doc, I find it comical when I hear EMT's and medics cry out their pie holes about how crappy Dr. X is. 99% of the time it is an ego thing and the medic doesn't possibly have the background and experience to even begin to rationalize the decisions a doctor makes. Sure Mr. medic, you have a finite spectrum of knowledge for which you are a so called expert, but lets see you apply that knowledge outside your area of expertise. The MD and the DO degree are the universal "Jacks of all Trades" degrees. And above that, an FM doc is highly knowledgable about EM. I would say except for EM docs, they are the next most highly trained doc to work in the ED. Many a medic has dropped off a patient to an FM doc and never known it. Some of the best EM docs are in fact not EM boarded. The profession is younger than the medic profession.

Word to the wise medics...walk a mile in a docs shoes before you begin to question the things they do on a daily basis. We all do it, and I am certainly guilty of it in my former life. But I know better now. And don't kid yourselves medics, you think because a Doc doesn't know how to operate a KED that he is an idiot. But I can show you about a hundred pieces of medical equipment we use in the ED that you wouldn't have a clue how to use. Start with a triple lumen central line perhaps. Don't forget that you are still technicians, without even the longitude to truly think in a critical fashion. Everything you do is protocol driven whether you want to admit it or not. And who do you think writes and signs off on those protocols giving you the authority to do the stuff you do? I know places where they don't even let their medics intubate because they routinely make things worse. Your livlihood would not exist without us docs.

It's unfortunate that you're using some blanket statements there. If all you expect is protocol-following robots---that's all you'll ever get. There are many medics that are perfectly capable, even expert, critical thinkers...hopefully they don't work under the medical direction of someone who only wants 'technicians' that follow protocol. Hopefully they work in places that encourage thinking outside the box, and continued learning.

As for places that don't let the medics intubate because they're no good at it...that is absolutely 110% the fault of their medical direction. Laryngoscopy is a technical skill that can be taught to a child. Get their butts in the OR with an anesthesiologist or CRNA and let 'em have at it. Most medics simply don't get enough 'practice' doing intubations, I think that we should have to do a certain # per year on real patients with an airway expert (anesthesia) to stay up to speed.

I think that the natural progression for medics is towards more of a clinician role, and away from the technician role. If that's not what you want, hopefully you stay away from EMS as a physician. I hope your future attitude is to improve field medicine, instead of just reminding EMS that 'Your livlihood [sic] would not exist without us docs'. Set the bar high and encourage medics who thirst for knowledge and I think that you'll find that many of us are more capable than you think. Obviously, you must believe that intelligent medics like you who move up the food chain are aberrant. I simply don't believe that to be true.
 
Two days in a row this week...having been a paramedic in a robust system, it's somewhere between breaking my heart and pissing me off with how much some of these municipal medics suck.

Wednesday - I'm doing some charts - not even working clinically - when I hear EMS call in with a report of a guy with SVT that broke with adenosine 6 then 12. He then had ectopy - "couplets and bigeminy" - so the paramedic gives him 100mg of lidocaine. When I heard that on the radio, I got on and told them not to give any more. Thta'ts bad on two fronts - if it was a senior medic, they should know that lidocaine for PVCs is LONG gone, and they should know better. If it was a junior medic, they should have never heard about lidocaine for PVCs - period.

Thursday, I'm on the nonacute side. I walk over to acute looking for the ultrasound, and there's a trauma, and I see a colleague about to put a chest tube in. Seems that the patient had a complaint of some SOB post MVC - normal O2 sat, no tachypnea, no tracheal deviation - and the thought was that he was diminished on the right. So, what does overeager medic do to the patient that is NOT in extremis? Yep - 1. needles the chest - no whoosh, no change in patient status then 2. pulls the needle out. Patient gradually does become symptomatic now, until he hits the ED, where he is noted to NOW have a pneumothorax, and buys the chest tube.

I've needle decompressed 3 times in my career - once bilateral on a trauma code (as per protocol) and once in the ED (with success). Paragods that think that, since the drug box has whatever in it, they must use every single thing, or that any procedure they've been trained to do, damn it, they WILL do it, are accidents waiting to happen. If LA County - which does more calls in a day than the municipal service here does in a month - pulls the plug on tubing kids because medics are not just not good, but actually BAD at it, I think our guys need to be reined in more.

As far as docs on the ambulance, as said above, it depends on the type of doc. If they're not EM, they're not the best fit.
 
canjosh said:
As for places that don't let the medics intubate because they're no good at it...that is absolutely 110% the fault of their medical direction. Laryngoscopy is a technical skill that can be taught to a child. Get their butts in the OR with an anesthesiologist or CRNA and let 'em have at it. Most medics simply don't get enough 'practice' doing intubations, I think that we should have to do a certain # per year on real patients with an airway expert (anesthesia) to stay up to speed.

There is evidence that you need about 10-15 intubations to get accustomed to the anatomy, and then at least 100 to become decently proficient at inbuation. Perhaps our anesthesiology colleague can comment on this, but this is what I've been told by one of our anesthesiology attendings.

The problem is (1) most paramedic programs do poor jobs of getting enough intubations in real patients during training, (2) there aren't enough pre-hospital intubations to keep skills proficient, and (3) there are too many paramedics in most systems that further dilute the available procedures.

Even in busy systems, the average paramedic probably intubates less than 5 times per year. In systems where there is an overabundance of paramedics (i.e., ALS first response, double paramedic transport units, all ALS units and no BLS transport units, etc.), then the procedures available per paramedic is even lower.

There are several ways to address this: (1) lower the number of paramedics in a system (i.e., limit ALS first response procedures; eliminate all ALS units), (2) substitute field intubations with OR intubations, or (3) limit intubations done by paramedics.

Nobody will probably limit intubations on adult cardiac and respiratory arrest patients unless there is a high incidence of unrecognized esophageal intubations (see the Orlando data). However, pediatric intubations are few and far between, and the study by Gausche, et al., demonstrates no change in survival with pre-hospital intubation of pediatric patients. Therefore, this skill should probably be limited to systems that maintain high pediatric intubation rates (i.e., pediatric transport units) and not be routinely performed in all paramedic systems.

RSI seems to be associated with increased mortality rates, which has mainly been studied in the head injury population. Is it the fact that patients desaturate during "easy" intubation attempts? Or is it related to the procedure itself, even without desaturations and bradycardia? Nobody knows. For all we know, RSI in head injured patients might worsen outcome even if performed in the ED! This needs to be studied, but because it's so routinely practiced and pretty much a standard of care to intubate patients with a GCS <9, it's doubtful that an institution review board would approve such a study.

In summary, I support pre-hospital intubation of adult cardiac and respiratory arrest patients. I do not support pre-hospital intubation of pediatric patients or rapid sequence induction of trauma or medical patients. Yes, both can be performed safely in some systems, but it is not associated with improvements in survival.

There should be an active QA process whereby paramedics should obtain at least 5 intubations every six months. This can be supplemented by OR experience, but might be limited in certain areas due to students competing with practicing paramedics for practice/learning. Systems with high unrecognized esophageal intubation rates should NOT perform endotracheal intubation as this is a legal nightmare.

As always, this is just my two cents.
 
Being a medic and now a doc, I find it comical when I hear EMT's and medics cry out their pie holes about how crappy Dr. X is. 99% of the time it is an ego thing and the medic doesn't possibly have the background and experience to even begin to rationalize the decisions a doctor makes. Sure Mr. medic, you have a finite spectrum of knowledge for which you are a so called expert, but lets see you apply that knowledge outside your area of expertise. The MD and the DO degree are the universal "Jacks of all Trades" degrees. And above that, an FM doc is highly knowledgable about EM. I would say except for EM docs, they are the next most highly trained doc to work in the ED.

"I would say...", being the operative words in that statement. Yes many of them are competent, and I've known several FP's who are damn good in the ER, but blanket statements are a bad idea either way you apply them due to the exceptions that do occur.

Personally the doc in question was very sharp, clinically competent, but out of his element (according to a dual-boarded EM/IM doc, although I agree) and therefore he needs to remember his place. I don't walk into the doc in the box and tell him how to manage runny noses and well child checkups, then he needs to have the same courtesy when it comes to my doing my job.

I've needle decompressed 3 times in my career - once bilateral on a trauma code (as per protocol) and once in the ED (with success). Paragods that think that, since the drug box has whatever in it, they must use every single thing, or that any procedure they've been trained to do, damn it, they WILL do it, are accidents waiting to happen. If LA County - which does more calls in a day than the municipal service here does in a month - pulls the plug on tubing kids because medics are not just not good, but actually BAD at it, I think our guys need to be reined in more.

It is one of my personal pet peeves- both as an EMS provider and as a former EMS supervisor and educator- when people go overzealous with procedures. I have done needle decompressions on two occasions in 7 years of being an ILS/ALS provider- one being a last ditch effort to try to resuscitate my best friend. That notwithstanding, I agree that most medics need to be reined in somewhat.

As far as docs on the ambulance, as said above, it depends on the type of doc. If they're not EM, they're not the best fit.
Bingo.
 
canjosh said:
Laryngoscopy is a technical skill that can be taught to a child.

Exactly why paramedics shouldn't intubate.

I have no idea why we send our anesthesiologists through 4 years of medical school and 4 years of residency. We should just start using kindergarteners off the street.
 
The point is that it isn't so much a matter of learning a skill, but developing the discretion and judgement to know when to apply those skills, when to go with a simpler approach, and when to go with the most aggressive option available. That is the problem (well, one of the problems) with the current rote method of EMS education- it turns out (if done properly) technically competent, but educationally deficient medics and EMT's for the most part. Now there are those of us who have better knowledge or skill but admittedly we are the exception rather than the rule.
 
viostorm said:
Exactly why paramedics shouldn't intubate.

I have no idea why we send our anesthesiologists through 4 years of medical school and 4 years of residency. We should just start using kindergarteners off the street.

Laryngocopy is a technical skill. Comprehensive airway management is not!

Are anesthesiologists expert at intubation because they're smarter than the radiologist or cardiologist down the hall? No, they're the best because they manage airways all day, every day. They know all the tricks because they've seen the difficult airways, and they've figured out the best way to manage those types.

You have to make sure medics are competent enough to recognize esophageal intubation (that's the REAL problem with attempted field intubations!!!!), and to know the next step. I had fewer than 15 intubations while in paramedic school, and those were accompanied with VERY POOR teaching from the anesthesia folks I did my clinicals with. They had absolutely ZERO desire to get me up to speed-I was just a pain in the butt to them. People get upset when medics have poor intubation success rates, but nobody wants to fix the problem with proper training and adequate numbers of procedures.

I stand by my statement that laryngocopy is a technical skill--you position the head, get the epiglottis out of the way, and put the tube between the cords. If you can't do that, then the medic must recognize the next appropriate adjunct and utilize it. An anesthesiologist of course has a much bigger bag of tricks, and is deft at all techniques known to medicine, a medic might have only a couple other tricks in the bag--and that's a good thing. Like I said, laryngoscopy itself is a technical skill learned by doing...recognizing failure, knowing the next step, etc. requires assessment and critical thinking skills that many folks don't want medics to have.

I'd just like to finish by saying that we wouldn't even be having this conversation if medics were better at recognizing esophageal intubation. I'm personally wondering why LMAs haven't made the move into emergency medicine in a widespread manner...any thoughts on that?
 
canjosh said:
I'd just like to finish by saying that we wouldn't even be having this conversation if medics were better at recognizing esophageal intubation. I'm personally wondering why LMAs haven't made the move into emergency medicine in a widespread manner...any thoughts on that?

Isn't that because field intubations are Rapid Sequence Intubations (RSI) and and LMA doesn't provide the same degree of airway protection as an ET tube?


Wook
 
canjosh said:
Laryngocopy is a technical skill. Comprehensive airway management is not!

Are anesthesiologists expert at intubation because they're smarter than the radiologist or cardiologist down the hall? No, they're the best because they manage airways all day, every day. They know all the tricks because they've seen the difficult airways, and they've figured out the best way to manage those types.

You have to make sure medics are competent enough to recognize esophageal intubation (that's the REAL problem with attempted field intubations!!!!), and to know the next step. I had fewer than 15 intubations while in paramedic school, and those were accompanied with VERY POOR teaching from the anesthesia folks I did my clinicals with. They had absolutely ZERO desire to get me up to speed-I was just a pain in the butt to them. People get upset when medics have poor intubation success rates, but nobody wants to fix the problem with proper training and adequate numbers of procedures.

I stand by my statement that laryngocopy is a technical skill--you position the head, get the epiglottis out of the way, and put the tube between the cords. If you can't do that, then the medic must recognize the next appropriate adjunct and utilize it. An anesthesiologist of course has a much bigger bag of tricks, and is deft at all techniques known to medicine, a medic might have only a couple other tricks in the bag--and that's a good thing. Like I said, laryngoscopy itself is a technical skill learned by doing...recognizing failure, knowing the next step, etc. requires assessment and critical thinking skills that many folks don't want medics to have.

I'd just like to finish by saying that we wouldn't even be having this conversation if medics were better at recognizing esophageal intubation. I'm personally wondering why LMAs haven't made the move into emergency medicine in a widespread manner...any thoughts on that?

A contraindication to using an LMA is presence gastric contents. It is rare to find an emergency patient who has been NPO.

LMA's are a high risk for aspiration.
 
wook said:
Isn't that because field intubations are Rapid Sequence Intubations (RSI) and and LMA doesn't provide the same degree of airway protection as an ET tube?


Wook

In EM, most intubations are done on unconscious patients. RSI is only done on conscious patients.

Yes, LMA's do not protect the airway like an ET tube.
 
canjosh said:
You have to make sure medics are competent enough to recognize esophageal intubation (that's the REAL problem with attempted field intubations!!!!), and to know the next step.

My personal opinion is that this is the real problem behind why RSI's are going so badly for paramedics. This mantra of "it is only bad if you don't recognize it" was taught to me as well. It simply isn't true.

All to often have I seen a patient not intubated for 2-3 minutes with periods of hypoxia with multiple attempts. We have all run that code or been on that RSI. A vast majority of intubations should be gotten on the 1st attempt.

canjosh said:
I stand by my statement that laryngocopy is a technical skill--you position the head, get the epiglottis out of the way, and put the tube between the cords.

So is heart surgery, that doesn't mean you don't need dexerity and years of training to perform it well.

canjosh said:
critical thinking skills that many folks don't want medics to have.

I think you are mistaken here ... the fact that medics DO intubate means physicians want paramedics to have that skill. The irresponsible thing is that physicians are allowing it to continue despite significant research showing they are not capable of performing it.

I would love for paramedics to have a broad scope of practice. But what I would prefer more is that patients actually benefit from prehospital care. I am more concerned with the health of the patient then what paramedics do or don't do.

canjosh said:
wondering why LMAs haven't made the move into emergency medicine in a widespread manner...any thoughts on that?

My service has used LMA's or "modified" LMA's for a couple of years and anectodally I can say they are no more effective then the combitube. We have used the PAX and the Cobra. The people with *bad* airways they don't work well on, and those are the people that tend ot have problems with intubation as well.

I recently updated my ACLS and I was taught although I don't have it in writing that now for adult cardiac arrest combitube is preferred over intubation. I hope EMS services will look at these guidelines and make changes.

I think people are far too concerned with 100% *protection* of the airway ... I just don't think we are at a point in the county where we can make this happen. I'm almost certain from reading many of the Baltimore studies on nosocomial pneumonia that paramedic intubation really doesn't *protect* the airway. An ETT should keep stuff out of the lungs, but with the multiple attempts and crud in the airway of prehospital patients ... it ends up getting in the lungs.

I think the most important thing we could do for our prehospital patients at this point is provide a mechanism for significant oxygenation/ventilation and hopefully some reasonable airway protection. I think LMA or combitube is probably a good compromise. If you never make it to the hospital because of the hypoxia you can't die in the ICU of pneumonia.
 
I am consistantly astounded by some of the attitudes on this thread. I know many of you started out in EMS, although with varying reasons and lengths of service. It certainly makes me question your motivations and whether or not your partners hated riding with you.

Viostorm, I have to say, you seem to be the most disparaging of the EMS profession and a valiant defender of physicians everywhere. I am sure you are eager and excited about your newly realized medical training, but don't defend physicians so hastily. In fact, one of the primary reasons I decided to enter medical school was because a physician refused to listen to me regarding a patient and simply allowed, for lack of a better description, the patient to die. God forbid that a medic might question a physicians judgement, even if it is in a tactful and sincere way. I often wonder if it was his pride that cost that young man his life. Although I was only a "Medic", I had years of experience seeing patients, their illnesses, and their presentations.

I have worked with many amazing physicians and extraordinary medics. Mixed in these groups were medics that made me ashamed to share the same profession and physicians that made me fear for my patients.

You assume that because a person took gross anatomy, and placed a few tubes during residency, he is somehow superior to his less educated counterparts. I do not believe this to be the case. Most of the patients physicians wll intubate are clean intubations in an anethesthetized patient. How many have they ever performed after spooning a chunky meal out of the oropharynx, in a dimly lit bathroom, with limited space? How many have they done crammed in crumpled car? On occasion, I would have ED nurses call me, and another of my coworkers, to respond to the ED to intubate a difficult patient for a physician. It was not a slap in the face for the physician. I knew most of the physicians well and they were all the happier that the patient had a patent airway. Pride often does not help anyone. I you continue to condescend medics, one day, in some ED, you are going to have a medic question you concerning a patient. And, in your infinite wisdom, you are going to simply let the patient die.

CorpsmanUP, I am not even sure where to start with your remarks. I assume that you feel slighted by some of the comments on this thread, thus the reason for your caustic comments. I generally respect you commentary on SDN, but you seem to think that somehow the transition to being a physician is the only thing that allows a person to truly "think". Well, although I am not yet a physician, I cannot say that I "think" any better since medical school. After three years I do have much more knowledge than I started with, but this should not be meant to imply that my reasoning skills have improved. I, like you, have seen some comments on this thread that are exceptionally short sighted, mostly by people with few experiences in EMS. But to blanket all medics as being mechanistic technicians without the ability to think for themselves is disparaging. And while EMS may not be able maintain livlihood without physicians, I certainly don't see physicians lining up to pick up drunks and derelicts during all times of the night. Without nurses and medics, you too, would be lost. Anyway, I doubt physicians would do it for the pathetic salary medics get paid. And while EMS is by necessity protocol driven, so too are many aspects of medicine.

I know that there are many under-education prehospital providers roaming the streets. But it is unnecessary to apply blanket statements to all of them and to generally discredit everyone in the profession. Many bright people bust their ass everyday for very few rewards simply because they love the work.
 
ditchdoc--thanks for the support.

Viostorm--The studies that indicate poor outcomes with paramedic intubations should tell the physicians that something is wrong with training. Nothing is wrong with the paramedic's brain, except maybe lack of confidence in attempting maybe his/her 3rd intubation in the last 6 months in a narrow, dark hallway with the family screaming in his/her ear. Why does it seem that certain people just want to 'give up' on improving care in the field? Just because it's not great now, doesn't mean it can't be in the future. Taking intubation away from paramedics might improve outcomes in one study population, but decrease survival in another. It doesn't address the root problem--it's a knee-jerk reaction you're proposing.

Starting with better education--and PAY--might help attract and retain bright people
who insist on improving field care, instead of continuance of the status quo (or even digression from it in some cases). I currently make less than my younger brother who operates a chicken rotisserie @ Costco. I've been doing this for 8 years...obviously not for the money.

I see the Combitube used successfully often, although I have seen 1 case of presumable tracheal rupture, and 1 case of gastric rupture with Combitube patients.
 
a_ditchdoc said:
And while EMS is by necessity protocol driven, so too are many aspects of medicine.
I think it's important to understand that often times, in spite of what a certain concept in physiology or pathology would make you think is the appropriate action for a patient, sometimes this diverts from what is actually the experimentally proven correct action for a patient. Evidence based medicine does not always correspond with what you have learned in medical school or paramedic school, and having protocols allows us to follow a guideline of actions that have been proven to work. The important thing is to understand under which conditions these protocols apply, and when deviating from the protocol is actually warranted to maximize the health benefit of the patient.
 
Originally Posted by canjosh
wondering why LMAs haven't made the move into emergency medicine in a widespread manner...any thoughts on that?

Because they flat out suck in 95% of the patients you are suggesting they be considered for. They considered them here- actually had a meeting about it with the medics, EMT's, and docs. You could very clearly tell who was out for the best interest of the patients (meaning they could defend their stance with evidence) and who was just wanting a new toy. I was one of two EMS professionals who spoke up AGAINST the use of LMA's and advocated for remedial training on the basics of airway management. Thankfully the docs agreed that LMA's were a horrible idea and vetoed their use in our area.

Simply put: If you are going with a non-visualized airway, go with a Combitube.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
Because they flat out suck in 95% of the patients you are suggesting they be considered for. They considered them here- actually had a meeting about it with the medics, EMT's, and docs. You could very clearly tell who was out for the best interest of the patients (meaning they could defend their stance with evidence) and who was just wanting a new toy. I was one of two EMS professionals who spoke up AGAINST the use of LMA's and advocated for remedial training on the basics of airway management. Thankfully the docs agreed that LMA's were a horrible idea and vetoed their use in our area.

Simply put: If you are going with a non-visualized airway, go with a Combitube.

I didn't suggest they be used in any specific patients...I was looking for evidence for or against their use. I used to work for/with a PICU medical director that strongly advocated LMAs as a bridge to a more definitive airway. That's been the extent of my experience with them. They're very simple, even more so than the Combitube...that's why I'm interested in them. I assume they're much less likely to cause trauma as well.
 
Perhaps my previous comments were a bit due to being pissed off with the know-it-all medic always talking crap about "the doc". I'll consider that. I love the EMS profession, but there are a considerable number of medics who have no business in the field. And they always seem to be the one to question the doc's and talk shi$ about them away from the ED.

I plan to remain involved with EMS and actually plan to create my own pseudo EMS fellowship in residency. After being a physician it is my 2nd love. I really do hate to say it, because it will upset so many, but there are only a minority of paramedics in this country who are capable of thinking outside the box, which is why the field will never be anything more than a bunch of protocol following technicians. Sure there may be a handful that go on to bigger and better things, and these were probably the ones capable of critical thinking. But you and I and everyone else knows and remembers the vast majority of medics they worked with before med school and you fully believe that most of them had max'd their educational potential. With basic medical knowledge a paramedic is given, there is no room for critical thinking. Critical thinking is based upon having multiple echelons of knowledge from which to tap into in order to get to a goal in an atypical fashion. My knowledge of DKA versus Insulin OD was so limited as a medic that I had little idea why we treated the patient the way we did. My knowledge of COPD versus CHF was also very limited and they often ran together in my mind when someone had dyspnea. I was NOT capable of critical thinking back then and thank God for protocols is all I can say! Protocols gave me the confidence to know I could control a situation with virtually no real medical knowledge regarding the underlying problem.

Paramedics will never be clinicians because no paramedic is going to allow themself to endure 2-3 years of post grad training to continue to get paid squat!! And no agency is going to increase the pay of a paramedic when there are always 10 unemployed new medics ready to take their place and work for beans. I've heard that argument about paramedic clinicians for years, and I used to believe it was possible when PA training was only 2 years and a BS degree. But now nearly every PA and NP program in the country has gone to a master's degree, which means to compete with that level of training a paramedic clinician would need about 4 more years of school than they already do. It would be like starting from scratch to be a PA. I am a PA, and I know what it takes to become a mid-level provider. I doubt you will find one person on this forum that has been a medic, a midlevel, and a doc. I can wholeheartedly tell you that my medic knowledge was so unbelievably limited that even my midlevel training and pre-reqs for such were probably 400% more time comsuming and difficult than medic training.

There is no role for the paramedic/clinician, and in fact more and more studies are starting to prove that we can damn near live without paramedics. I like the idea of having more basics and intermediates while having only a handful of highly trained paramedics in order to keep their skill levels up. I can't even tell you the number of medics I know who worked for months before they ever had to do a tube, and then I know some that still stink at it years later. Its not as easy as "get the medic in the OR" because there are med students, CRNA students, anesthesia residents, all wanting and needing tubes as well.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
Because they flat out suck in 95% of the patients you are suggesting they be considered for. They considered them here- actually had a meeting about it with the medics, EMT's, and docs. You could very clearly tell who was out for the best interest of the patients (meaning they could defend their stance with evidence) and who was just wanting a new toy. I was one of two EMS professionals who spoke up AGAINST the use of LMA's and advocated for remedial training on the basics of airway management. Thankfully the docs agreed that LMA's were a horrible idea and vetoed their use in our area.

Simply put: If you are going with a non-visualized airway, go with a Combitube.

Hey dropkick, if you have any links to the pubmed articles about LMA I'd be interested. If it is not easy to get don't worry about it.

There are a lot of people that are behind the LMAish devices and they really aren't that bad in my experience. I think the nice thing about them is that they seem much more humane then combitube. The combitube just a ton of plastic in the mouth.
 
canjosh said:
I didn't suggest they be used in any specific patients...I was looking for evidence for or against their use. I used to work for/with a PICU medical director that strongly advocated LMAs as a bridge to a more definitive airway. That's been the extent of my experience with them. They're very simple, even more so than the Combitube...that's why I'm interested in them. I assume they're much less likely to cause trauma as well.
Yes, and there is a much higher change of them becoming misplaced when moving the patient and they don't protect the airway. So why not just bag the patient?

VIOSTORM I am not at home, so I don't have the benefit of my library of PDF files. But a quick search of PubMed reveals:

A small study showing that EMT's can successfully insert LMA's in controlled settings:
Kurola et al: A comparison of the laryngeal tube and bag-valve mask ventilation by emergency medical technicians: a feasibility study in anesthetized patients. Anesth Analg. 2005 Nov;101(5):1477-81.


Airway management is of major importance in emergency care. The basic technique for all health care providers is bag-valve mask (BVM) ventilation, which requires skill and may be difficult to perform. Endotracheal intubation, which is the advanced method for securing the airway, is a demanding technique that has been shown to be associated with infrequent success, even when used by experienced paramedical personnel. Therefore, alternative airway devices have been sought. The use of the laryngeal tube (LT) by experienced anesthesia personnel had been studied in anesthetized patients and manikins in emergency medical training. We decided to evaluate the ability of inexperienced firefighter-emergency medical technician students (fire-EMT) to insert the LT or perform BVM in anesthetized patients. Thirty fire-EMTs randomly inserted the LT (n = 15) and performed 1 min of ventilation or used the BVM (n = 15). We found that all students successfully (100%) inserted the LT. Those who inserted the LT on the first attempt (73%) required 48.2 +/- 14.7 s for the insertion. Both the LT and BVM provided adequate oxygenation and ventilation. In this study, we found that inexperienced fire-EMT students inserted LT and performed 1-min ventilation with a reasonable success rate and insertion time in anesthetized patients.


LMA's produce the same (or higher levels) of mucosal pressure as a Combitube:
Comparison of Mucosal Pressures Induced by Cuffs of Different Airway Devices. Anesthesiology. 2006 May;104(5):933-938.

BACKGROUND:: High pressures exerted by balloons and cuffs of conventional endotracheal tubes, the Combitube(R) (Tyco Healthcare Nellcor Mallinckrodt, Pleasanton, CA), the EasyTube(R) (Teleflex Ruesch, Kernen, Germany), the Laryngeal Mask Airway trade mark (LMA North America, San Diego, CA), the Intubating Laryngeal Mask Airway trade mark (Fastrach(R); LMA North America), the ProSeal trade mark (LMA North America), and the Laryngeal Tube (LT; VBM Medizintechnik, Sulz, Germany) may traumatize the pharyngeal mucosa. The aim of this study was to compare pressures exerted on the pharyngeal, tracheal, and esophageal mucosa by different devices designed for securing the patient's airways. METHODS:: Nineteen fresh cadavers were included. To measure mucosal pressures, microchip sensors were fixed on the anterior, lateral, and posterior surfaces of the proximal balloon and the distal cuff of the investigated devices. Depending on the respective airway device, the cuff volume was increased in 10-ml increments at the proximal balloon starting from 0 to a maximum of 100 ml, and in 2-ml increments at the distal cuff starting from 0 up to 12 ml. RESULTS:: Tracheal mucosal pressures were significantly higher using the Combitube(R) compared with the endotracheal tube and the EasyTube(R). Maximal esophageal pressures were significantly higher using the EasyTube(R) compared with the Combitube(R). Using cuff volumes according to the manufacturers' guidelines, we found the highest pharyngeal pressures with the Intubating Laryngeal Mask Airway trade mark versus all other devices. At maximal volumes, the Laryngeal Mask Airway trade mark, the Intubating Laryngeal Mask Airway trade mark, and the ProSeal trade mark induced significantly higher pharyngeal pressures compared with all other devices. Using a pharyngeal cuff volume of 40 ml, the Intubating Laryngeal Mask Airway trade mark followed by the Laryngeal Mask Airway trade mark exerted significantly higher pressures compared with the other devices. CONCLUSIONS:: Although some devices exhibit a somewhat higher mucosal pressure when compared with others, the authors believe that the observed differences of the cuff pressures do not suggest a clinically relevant danger, because the investigated devices, except the endotracheal tubes, are not intended for prolonged use.

For those who don't believe the risk of mobility of LMA's:
Ofoegbu VA, Mato CN. Mechanical airway obstruction from the laryngeal mask airway cuff. Niger J Med. 2006 Jan-Mar;15(1):89-90.

BACKGROUND: The laryngeal mask airway (LMA) classic has been found useful in airway management of both routine and emergency unexpected failed intubations. We report a case of mechanical airway obstruction from anterior in folding of the laryngeal mask airway classical cuff. METHOD: The anaesthetic record of a 55-year-old 70 kg female patient fora left sided total hip replacement that had a failed spinal and was augmented with the laryngeal mask airway. RESULT: Near complete airway obstruction developed after the size 4 laryngeal mask airway classic was inserted and the cuff inflated with 30 ml of air. The reduced reservoir volume and the desaturation that ensued as detected by the portable handheld pulse oximeter alerted the anesthesiologist and called for a check which was not corrected by any head and neck manoeuvre. On withdrawal of the laryngeal mask airway, the cuff was noted to have folded unto the fresh gas aperture thereby obstructing ventilation and oxygenation of the patient. CONCLUSION: Monitoring the monitors and quick reassessment of laryngeal cuff placement guaranties the evasion of anaesethetic catastrophes.

That means that the ease of insertion could very well lead to disastrous outcomes especially given the other evidence that most EMS personnel are ineffective at airway troubleshooting.
 
Thanks dropkick ....

We used the CobraPLA, then switched to "pharyngeal airway express" or the PAX airway. It is nice because you can intubate through it.

http://www.engmedsys.com/ems_website_cobra.html

The flight service here in lubbock swears by the PAX. It has saved them on a couple of patients including a burn patient I know of.

I looked around and couldn't find any reasonable studies in the prehospital setting for PAX or CobraPLA. I don't think these supraglottic devices have been sufficiently studied ... and my experience with it ... 1 giant obese patient it didn't work on at all ... but the combitube wouldn't work on him either.

As far as concerns about securing it, I think if you put a neck collar on and use a normal ETT 'tube tamer' it should stay in place.
 
Nice post Corpsman. That was, although undoubtedly painful for many, one of the best posts I've read on SDN.

Seriously guys, stop embarrassing yourselves by trying to put down the docs. It only causes more problems for everyone.

I've been involved in EMS for a long time in many capacities. In order to maintain some anonymity I will not detail my CV but I have about as much EMS experience as 99.99% of the medics in this country.

I used to believe that Paramedics should develop the paramedic practitioner model and increase our scope of practice. I've lectured about this and pursued it on a state and national level. I eventually decided to go to medical school and now that I'm almost done, my opinions have changed drastically. BTW, this is a similar argument as the midlevels but that’s a different forum.

I still love EMS and plan on continuing my involvement in the field, but the reality is that Paramedics, no matter how good or how smart, are still technicians. I used to think I knew a lot more than I did. Looking back on my previous life, I chuckle to myself when I think about how little I knew but how much I thought I did. Honestly, I've probably forgotten ten times as much now as I knew as a paramedic.

All that said, I still think EMS performs a vital role and I'm glad somebody is there to answer the calls at two in the morning. I think the Walt Stoy model of the advanced paramedic and the "new" paramedic curriculum are way too ambitious. We should be ensuring that basic ABCs are being met and do a better job of ensuring that advanced skills and drugs are providing any measurable benefit and eliminate them if they are not. Having moved all around the country I've been amazed with how poor many EMS systems are. I have no doubt that things like intubation have probably killed many more people than they saved.

One last comment. One of the hardest things that I still struggle with is unlearning the type of thinking that is still ingrained in my brain from being a Paramedic for so many years. Like a previous poster said, medicine is not at all black and white. The "always do this" and "never do this" thinking of EMS really doesn't apply to a physician. Medicine is still very much an art. It's an art that is borne out of a deep complex understanding of how the body works in both health and disease and how to alter things from a molecular to an organismal level. This is the difference between a technician and a physician.

No hate guys, I'm still on your side. Just think for a minute before you as an EMT-B go on "studentDOCTOR.net" and imply that we're clueless.
 
Sinnman said:
I still love EMS and plan on continuing my involvement in the field, but the reality is that Paramedics, no matter how good or how smart, are still technicians. I used to think I knew a lot more than I did. Looking back on my previous life, I chuckle to myself when I think about how little I knew but how much I thought I did. Honestly, I've probably forgotten ten times as much now as I knew as a paramedic.

I agree with Sinnman. It really amazes me how I treated patients without a full understanding of what was going on. 20 years from now with more experience, I may be reflecting on this same statement and repeating it.
 
I should clarify my previous statement about paramedics moving toward the 'clinician' end of the spectrum...I should have chosen a different word.

I really meant to say I support medics moving towards more of an RN frame of mind; i.e. primary emphasis on a broad base of knowledge, critical thinking skills, and a more demanding didactic education overall. I believe that making someone jump through the hoops forces out the slugs to a great extent. Of course we all know that EMS education currently revolves around performance of certain skills, and I know that's a huge problem.

I most definitely do NOT advocate medics moving into an MLP role. There's just not a current need for that, nor will there ever be. Of course graduate level medics could certainly be useful in administrative and lobbying levels (something the nursing profession is frighteningly good at).

I don't know that we could ever make this happen, because it's a long way from where we're at right now. But, I think it's something to shoot for in the future. I think that everybody would be more pleased with pt care if EMS provided a quality of care on par with the average care provided by RNs. In other words, I'd say that nursing quality in the US is 'good' on average, but that EMS care is currently fair to poor when taken as a whole.

We all know that working in the medical field involves lifelong learning. As southerndoc said, he may realize in 20 years how little he knows today. That doesn't mean we neuter him as a physician in the meantime.
 
viostorm said:
Thanks dropkick ....

We used the CobraPLA, then switched to "pharyngeal airway express" or the PAX airway. It is nice because you can intubate through it.

http://www.engmedsys.com/ems_website_cobra.html

The flight service here in lubbock swears by the PAX. It has saved them on a couple of patients including a burn patient I know of.

I looked around and couldn't find any reasonable studies in the prehospital setting for PAX or CobraPLA. I don't think these supraglottic devices have been sufficiently studied ... and my experience with it ... 1 giant obese patient it didn't work on at all ... but the combitube wouldn't work on him either.

As far as concerns about securing it, I think if you put a neck collar on and use a normal ETT 'tube tamer' it should stay in place.
I still think if they are used, they should only be used in cases where you can't effectively manage the airway in any other fashion. And honestly, speaking both as an RT and a veteran EMS provider, I can speak of maybe 2 dozen airway cases in 10 years that were truly unmanagable given what I had at my disposal at the given time (I'm talking about patients with no lower faces from GSW's, the mortally obese, etc). It is an extreme circumstance where invasive airway devices are truly needed to keep a patient alive. While intubation is ideal, it is seldom the only recourse and more often than not I think part of the problem is that we get in way to big of a rush to put in a tube of some fashion when something less invasive, less fraught with risk and less flashy would suffice. That's just my two cents....I could be wrong.
 
canjosh said:
I really meant to say I support medics moving towards more of an RN frame of mind; i.e. primary emphasis on a broad base of knowledge, critical thinking skills, and a more demanding didactic education overall.

Have you ever really looked at an RN's education? There is virtually no critical thinking taught in RN programs, and in fact I would argue that medics get more of this than RN's get. RN training is littered with nursing care plans and a whole lot of complete BS that most nurses will tell you helped them zero! I can tell you that docs NEVER read the nursing care plans in the chart because they are complete trash. There are some places in the hospital where the nurses routinely save our a$$, like the ICU, the ED, but on regular floors, most nurses are about as far away from critical thinking as you can get. If you get down to it, remove all the BS pre-reqs (science for nursing majors courses, English, History, etc..etc...), all the nursing theory and care plan courses, and focus on the pathophys and true medical stuff, RN training is little more than what paramedics go through. It obviously has more useless stuff like how to properly roll a patient when bathing them, and stuff like that, but the true degree of medical knowledge is not that much greater at the RN level. It just isn't. They simply spend more time in clinicals than medics, and that is the real difference. Sure you can teach nurses to think critically, and some work well on air medivac units etc..., but the RN education is not the education to shoot for if you want to improve medic knowledge and training. They are completely different fields of medicine. You could instead dissect out of a PA curriculum the nuts and bolts and have a one year paramedic course that was way more intense and useful than any RN education. The Navy has something similar, called Independent Duty Corpsmen who spend a year becoming a hybrid PA, paramedic to some degree without enough training to be called either, but they are highly useful. They provide completely independent healthcare on subs and small ships where it is not cost effective to send a doctor or PA.
 
fiznat said:
In my system they let medics clear c-spine with a few quick checks for pain. Thats another option.

You've got to be kidding. Is this pretty standard across the country?
 
jwk said:
You've got to be kidding. Is this pretty standard across the country?

Actually it IS standard, as long as you are on the phone with the medical director when you do it, and he signs off on it.
 
bstone said:
I just graduated from an EMT-Intermediate program. I am trained and certified in ETT. I am glad I am not a Paramedic, becuase if you had your way they wouldn't be allowed to intubate. Because I am an Intermediate I still can! Yay!!!
If it weren't for the dripping sarcasm in that post, I would be very very afraid for your patients.
 
OSUdoc08 said:
Actually it IS standard, as long as you are on the phone with the medical director when you do it, and he signs off on it.

I think there is a significant difference between "clearing c-spine" and deciding who needs to a backboard ... although subtle.

I look at BTLS criteria (no distracting injury, good neuro, minor MOI) as deciding the necessity to immobilize, not ruling in or out injury.

Clearing c-spine to me is done by ER physician with the exams that may include radiographic evaluation and other protocols.

I think it is pretty standard to follow BTLS criteria, but actually taking a collar off someone with injury to head, neck, back or face I don't see being standard in EMS.

That being said ... in my system ... everyone with a mechanism of injury gets a board ... I mean, we can RSI but can't decide who needs a board. Oh, and we can't get a refusal without supervisors or medical command. Some things in West Texas are very progressive, but some things are just bass ackwards. But ... you gotta do what the boss says.
 
viostorm said:
That being said ... in my system ... everyone with a mechanism of injury gets a board ... I mean, we can RSI but can't decide who needs a board. Oh, and we can't get a refusal without supervisors or medical command. Some things in West Texas are very progressive, but some things are just bass ackwards. But ... you gotta do what the boss says.

We have a "selective spinal immobilization" protocol that allows paramedics to not immobilize patients if they have a normal mental status, no neurologic findings (parasthesias, weakness), not intoxicated or high on other drugs, no distracting injury, and no midline tenderness. If you fit the protocol, then a paramedic can elect to not immoblize you, regardless of the mechanism.

I think mechanism is overly rated with regards to trauma status. Yes, there are associations with higher injury with certain mechanisms. However, those patients usually have physiologic signs of compromise and would rule in for trauma protocols by their physiologic derangements. Just because somebody rolled a car over doesn't mean they need a trauma alert. I've discharged plenty of these patients. The ones who are seriously injured usually have physiologic signs of their injury.
 
bstone said:
Thank goodness for dripping sarcasm!

In reality, our training in ETT was not simple. Mannequin, ambulance, ER and OR attempted required. In addition, we don't just drop the tube and pray it's in the right place. It must be confirmed by two additional methods. The best are End Tidal CO2 detectors and the "turkey baster" esophageal detection device. Unless both are confirmed, you don't keep the tube in.
End tidal and LISTEN TO BREATH SOUNDS!!!!!
 
As a Wilderness Medic (or WEMT or WFR) we have protocol and training to clear a suspected C spine injury. We take a good history, check neurological functions and give a physical exam.
If you have a choice of packing someone out of the wilderness on a backboard, or taking the time to learn how to clear a spine, I would opt for having the patient walk out on his own if he could.
People do this all the time with only a nine day medical course under their belt (WFR).

It is not rocket science, folks.
 
There are a couple things I wanted to say. Yes, I'm an EMT(intermediate)...and yes I'm in medical school(second year DO student). I have seen every aspect of medicine both fall to pieces and also rise up and above the rest. I worked (and still do when I go back) for a volunteer service in a small town in which we had to go on the call no matter what time of day or year it was. We were it. There were many times in which I know the care I provided was sub-par at best. One of the amazing things that happened though was in the ED and after the call. Learning. We would be asked to stay in the ED many times to help with a call due to the insufficient staff of our small rural hospital. Most of what I learned and applied came from what the PA or Doc would teach me in the ED. It was always encouraging, honest yet always geared to help me become a better EMT. There were other times in which I was asked to attempt an IV because the nurses were unable to access a vein that was needed. My father, also an EMT, was asked to put a tube in on a pt the physician was unable to get it in on. It was not uncommon for the physician to turn to us and the nurses and ask us what we thought should be done. They wanted everyone's opinion and all the information to make an informed decision.

I truly hope that one day I can become a physician that seeks to teach and learn from those around me. I hope to run on the ambulance to not only keep my field skills up to par but also to teach, encourage and perhaps even learn from my pre-hospital colleagues. I know that an EMS can only do as much as is expected and trained to do. There have been many hospitals started in other countries where the physicians trained the personel (many of which had no prior training) to do things by themselves. When they were kicked out of the country from war, the hospital was able to maintain itself because those physicians had taken the time to train the locals.

I would hope that physicians who go on an ambulance (having no prior training in EMS) would seek to learn what they were never taught. I would also hope that EMTs and medics would also seek to learn from the knowledge that many physicians take for granted. We do learn a lot of invaluable things about the body and medicine that could only enhance an EMS service.

As to the C-spine. After evaluating a pt post-MVA, there were no palpatory/visual/symptomatic findings at all that would warrent a C-spine. The pt. was also up and walking around and was wanting to sign a refusal to transport. We strapped him down anyway and found out he had a fx of C2-4. This happened two other times. One pt. eventually died. Though in most cases it should be ok to rule out C-spine, X-ray vision we don't have. I know it's rare, but I always try to error on the side of caution when a MOI suggests a potential risk.

That's my 2 cents and now i'm broke! (the other 200 grand goes to my school!) :rolleyes:
 
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