Will a MS degree help me get in?

[entropybrain]

Hello,

I am interested in a MD/PhD degree. I have a low gpa 3.2 (for both the science and overall gpa), 38 MCAT. My low gpa was due to serious illness my father had during my undergraduate career (he had an aneurism + stroke), so it was an extremely stressful time for me, and I had to commute across states frequently throughout college. He is fine now so its all good . Unfortunately, its still a sore spot in my application! Which is why I'm looking for advice. A little about me-Graduated in 2013. I have done an array of different things post-grad. Originally, I decided that due to my low gpa it would be impossible to get into a Md/PhD program or even a MD program with my GPA. Then I took my MCAT and it gave me some hope. I am currently taking biochemistry at a local college to upgrade that prerequisite and "stay" in the academic loop.

What I have done since graduating:
Working full time in a pharmaceutical company as a scientist. I worked in academic research before this for about a year, and it was there that I fell in love with research once again. Previously to that, upon graduation I was in the Peace Corps, and after working in the health sector, I knew medicine was my calling. I am certain that I want to do both things, and I know I can do research as a doctor, but I am sure that this track is right for me through my experiences. I have great LORs from professors, PI's and the Peace Corps as well as doctors.

Now, I have been admitted to a Masters program in Neuroscience in the fall. I want to do this Masters to show the schools that I am serious about this career path, and that I can get good grades in higher level course offerings. I feel like it would impress the PhD side more because I feel that my research experience is lacking because I have no published papers. Starting to compile my schools for the 2016 round.

I am 23, female, not URM-unless being 1/4 Afghani counts (lol)?
Any advice?? Looking forward to hearing anything you guys can impart on me!

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[Neuronix]

How many years of research do you have at this point? You should be in an academic lab where you have the opportunity to present at national meetings and publish. That's not mandatory, but the opportunity for independent work and presentation should be there.

Now, I have been admitted to a Masters program in Neuroscience in the fall. I want to do this Masters to show the schools that I am serious about this career path, and that I can get good grades in higher level course offerings. I feel like it would impress the PhD side more because I feel that my research experience is lacking because I have no published papers. Starting to compile my schools for the 2016 round.

My advice for those in your position is generally not to do a masters. Masters programs are either costly or they require things that won't help you like teaching and thesis writing. We all know that graduate programs have easy grading. Undergraduate course work is much more rigorous and representative of medical school work. The coursework you want is either in advanced undergraduate science courses or in re-taking any major pre-med courses that you bombed. You want all As. SMPs are one way to achieve that, but again they are costly and they tend to be highly competitive, so I typically recommend getting the coursework the way you already are (local college).

I am 23, female, not URM-unless being 1/4 Afghani counts (lol)?

No you are not URM. You could potentially be disadvantaged as a war refugee or something similar, but I see nothing in your post to suggest that history. The benefit of disadvantaged status is questionable.

 

[entropybrain]

I have about 2 years of research full time. I was doing independent projects in the academic lab, but unfortunately, I have never been to any national meetings. I was thinking of doing an SMP as well, but I also want to learn more about Neuroscience in depth-its a relatively short program 1-year, but it also has the potential to be useless, like you stated. I guess I should include more information on the Masters program-I think it is supposed to help get into medical school or a PhD, but also grants a MS. Which is one of the reasons I was interested in it. But an SMP is something to think about.

PS- Was semi-joking about the URM thing, I know that Afghani doesn't count

 

[Neuronix]

I was thinking of doing an SMP as well, but I also want to learn more about Neuroscience in depth-its a relatively short program 1-year, but it also has the potential to be useless, like you stated. I guess I should include more information on the Masters program-I think it is supposed to help get into medical school or a PhD, but also grants a MS. Which is one of the reasons I was interested in it. But an SMP is something to think about.

Well you've heard my opinion. The only thing I meant to impress upon you is to take on as little debt as possible. Working in a lab and taking a some course load is usually the cheapest and most effective way to do things. You have a potentially long time before you can start paying debt back, and if you go to medical school, there will be A LOT more debt to pay back.

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

Well you've heard my opinion. The only thing I meant to impress upon you is to take on as little debt as possible. Working in a lab and taking a some course load is usually the cheapest and most effective way to do things. You have a potentially long time before you can start paying debt back, and if you go to medical school, there will be A LOT more debt to pay back.

Seconded, MS will not be much value added and would be another source of debt. Getting hired as a research assistant in a high power lab would be the ideal thing to do with your time.

 

[bd4727]

Why not just apply and see what happens? 38 MCAT is great, you obviously are mature / have real world experience if you work for big pharma now and have done those other things, and that will be apparent during your interviews. Plus being a female and maybe URM is a big boost in MD/PhD.

So just have a solid answer for why the low GPA and how that is not reflective of you know and see what happens right? If they say no at least you will know why? Masters is definitely a waste just stay at pharma and take the money at this point, research is research at pre-PhD level...

 

[Garritano]

I personally did an MS before applying, and there are several cases where I would recommend one.
I think my experience will be relevant to you, as I also had a low GPA + high MCAT. I also had a death in my family which caused me to withdraw from undergrad for 2 years. I applied this cycle and was admitted to Yale's MSTP.

However, I think you probably shouldn't do this MS. In general, an MS can occasionally be really powerful.

Before I go too deep in writing about the MS + MSTP application, I would like to ask you what your degree was in. It's very relevant to the decision to do an MS in Neuro.

If you are considering an MS to get into MD-PhD programs, you need to consider the following
1) Am I missing strong letters of recommendation?
2) Am I missing publications?
3) Am I missing a science degree?
4) Am I missing clinical research experience?
5) Does my transcript have a problem?
6) Is the MS at a tier 1 institution AND my BS is from a low rank institution?

In your case, it sounds like an MS in neuroscience will only help with #5.

An MS in Neuroscience might actually hurt you with PhDs. Nationally, there isn't a standard terminal MS degree in almost any of the sciences (exception for degrees like Statistics). There is a bias from the last century that science MS degrees are degrees are awarded to PhD dropouts.

A few other posters recommended that you join a laboratory as a research assistant. This seems like sound advice.
I think the thing your application needs is publications + conferences.
If you have publications + a high MCAT, you'll get into a bunch of MSTP programs despite your GPA.

If you enroll in an MS, I expect you'll have trouble finding a mentor who will support you all the way to the MD-PhD application. PIs generally won't invest time and resources into premeds in this scenario, unless you already have a strong relationship. The best way to build a strong relationship is to join the lab and produce high quality work and be well liked by your colleagues. Master's coursework will interfere with both of these.
If you do decide to join a lab, make sure you do a lot of research about it ahead of time. Be certain you will actually be listed as an author for research you contribute to, and be certain you will be given the opportunity to lead your own research and present it / publish it.

Lastly, I want to give you a few thoughts:
1) I am very sorry to hear of your father's illness and I realize this is likely a deeply personal and painful subject for you.
However, you MUST MUST MUST write about it in you personal statement.
I cannot emphasize this enough. I will warn you that this will likely be an exceptionally difficult thing to write about, so begin writing now.
You will also have to talk about it about twice per interview trip, so prepare ahead of it time.
Tell some of your close friends that you're applying, and explain to them how your father's case influences your decision to pursue an MD-PhD. You need to get practice thinking about this and articulating it now, as it'll dictate who well you can write about it and how you can speak about it in interviews.
Remember, this is fundamental to who you are, meaning that your letter of recommendation writers should know it. This means you should write your personal statement before you get your letters.

2) If you had a publication, I think you could be very competitive for MSTP, despite the GPA.
I also had a lower GPA due to a family death, and unlike you, I actually withdrew from school for 2 years after my family member passed away. I assumed that this "hole in my record" would mean I might get auto-rejected from everywhere, but that didn't happen (going to Yale MSTP next fall).
Note that I said "competitive for MSTP" - I think that MSTP is a really different animal when it comes to stuff like GPA. Obviously I know very little about you, but from what I've read, I get the impression that you're bright and are likely interested in MSTP for the right reasons.

3) You are still VERY young.
It might feel that 23 + 8 + residency = big number, so you need to start your MD-PhD now. However, if you really feel that way, you might need to do some more research about what the MD-PhD career is like!
Don't do an MD-PhD unless you LOVE doing research. If you love doing research, then taking two years to do research in a lab should be fun!

4) Going into debt for a Master's in Neuroscience is really bad
An MS in Neuroscience won't open up new careers to you, and unless you use it to churn out a publication / some conferences it isn't going to make or break your MD-PhD application. As it is, if the MS was free, it's unclear to me that it would be superior to joining a lab. Note that in my case, my MS actually was pretty much free. (I was hired as a GSR by my undergrad PI, which covered my tuition + gave small stipend). If I had to pay for my MS, I might not have done it, and unlike your case, my MS let me fix my publications, clinical exposure, and letters of recommendation.

5) Afghani doesn't qualify for URM, but being a woman does help a little bit with MSTP. Are you the first in your family to pursue higher ed?

 

[entropybrain]

I personally did an MS before applying, and there are several cases where I would recommend one.
I think my experience will be relevant to you, as I also had a low GPA + high MCAT. I also had a death in my family which caused me to withdraw from undergrad for 2 years. I applied this cycle and was admitted to Yale's MSTP.

However, I think you probably shouldn't do this MS. In general, an MS can occasionally be really powerful.

Before I go too deep in writing about the MS + MSTP application, I would like to ask you what your degree was in. It's very relevant to the decision to do an MS in Neuro.

If you are considering an MS to get into MD-PhD programs, you need to consider the following
1) Am I missing strong letters of recommendation?
2) Am I missing publications?
3) Am I missing a science degree?
4) Am I missing clinical research experience?
5) Does my transcript have a problem?
6) Is the MS at a tier 1 institution AND my BS is from a low rank institution?

In your case, it sounds like an MS in neuroscience will only help with #5.

An MS in Neuroscience might actually hurt you with PhDs. Nationally, there isn't a standard terminal MS degree in almost any of the sciences (exception for degrees like Statistics). There is a bias from the last century that science MS degrees are degrees are awarded to PhD dropouts.

A few other posters recommended that you join a laboratory as a research assistant. This seems like sound advice.
I think the thing your application needs is publications + conferences.
If you have publications + a high MCAT, you'll get into a bunch of MSTP programs despite your GPA.

If you enroll in an MS, I expect you'll have trouble finding a mentor who will support you all the way to the MD-PhD application. PIs generally won't invest time and resources into premeds in this scenario, unless you already have a strong relationship. The best way to build a strong relationship is to join the lab and produce high quality work and be well liked by your colleagues. Master's coursework will interfere with both of these.
If you do decide to join a lab, make sure you do a lot of research about it ahead of time. Be certain you will actually be listed as an author for research you contribute to, and be certain you will be given the opportunity to lead your own research and present it / publish it.

Lastly, I want to give you a few thoughts:
1) I am very sorry to hear of your father's illness and I realize this is likely a deeply personal and painful subject for you.
However, you MUST MUST MUST write about it in you personal statement.
I cannot emphasize this enough. I will warn you that this will likely be an exceptionally difficult thing to write about, so begin writing now.
You will also have to talk about it about twice per interview trip, so prepare ahead of it time.
Tell some of your close friends that you're applying, and explain to them how your father's case influences your decision to pursue an MD-PhD. You need to get practice thinking about this and articulating it now, as it'll dictate who well you can write about it and how you can speak about it in interviews.
Remember, this is fundamental to who you are, meaning that your letter of recommendation writers should know it. This means you should write your personal statement before you get your letters.

2) If you had a publication, I think you could be very competitive for MSTP, despite the GPA.
I also had a lower GPA due to a family death, and unlike you, I actually withdrew from school for 2 years after my family member passed away. I assumed that this "hole in my record" would mean I might get auto-rejected from everywhere, but that didn't happen (going to Yale MSTP next fall).
Note that I said "competitive for MSTP" - I think that MSTP is a really different animal when it comes to stuff like GPA. Obviously I know very little about you, but from what I've read, I get the impression that you're bright and are likely interested in MSTP for the right reasons.

3) You are still VERY young.
It might feel that 23 + 8 + residency = big number, so you need to start your MD-PhD now. However, if you really feel that way, you might need to do some more research about what the MD-PhD career is like!
Don't do an MD-PhD unless you LOVE doing research. If you love doing research, then taking two years to do research in a lab should be fun!

4) Going into debt for a Master's in Neuroscience is really bad
An MS in Neuroscience won't open up new careers to you, and unless you use it to churn out a publication / some conferences it isn't going to make or break your MD-PhD application. As it is, if the MS was free, it's unclear to me that it would be superior to joining a lab. Note that in my case, my MS actually was pretty much free. (I was hired as a GSR by my undergrad PI, which covered my tuition + gave small stipend). If I had to pay for my MS, I might not have done it, and unlike your case, my MS let me fix my publications, clinical exposure, and letters of recommendation.

5) Afghani doesn't qualify for URM, but being a woman does help a little bit with MSTP. Are you the first in your family to pursue higher ed?

Wow thank you for your insight, I am really grateful for your post given your circumstances are very similar to mine (congrats on Yale by the way!).

I got my BS in biology and psychology with a behavioral neuroscience concentration. I wrote my ug thesis on a neuroscience topic as well (if that helps at all). I also worked in a neuroscience lab when I was a research assistant in academia. I am very passionate about neuroscience.

From your list I personally think I am missing #2 and #5 and maybe #6, I went to a small liberal arts school it is in the top 100 for only liberal arts, but not sure how it compares overall ranking, but the MS is at a tier 1 school.

I was working in an academic lab before I converted to pharma, but I had no publications, however I was allowed to pursue independent projects as well. I went to pharma because I thought that it would be the same as academia, but I was very wrong about that! I am considering going back to my old lab (versus the masters) but it is a big decision (moving,pay reduction,etc) but I really loved their research. As you said it has also been recommended by previous posters as well.

I am actually very surprised that you said that I should write about my father in my personal statement for applications. I thought that the directors of admissions would be tired of hearing all the stories by now. But, in a weird way my father is responsible for keeping medicine in the object of my interest. I will keep this advice is mind.

My MS degree is not free and I will have to take out large loans, but it is tuition reduced-but that is still a debt, but there is a lot of opportunity for research-but not as great as a research assistant full time of course.

I am the first child in my family pursuing education here, as well as higher education as well.

Thanks again to everyone, you have given me a lot of advice and a lot of things to think about. I will have to make my decision relatively soon because applications are coming right up!

 

[Garritano]

I am actually very surprised that you said that I should write about my father in my personal statement for applications. I thought that the directors of admissions would be tired of hearing all the stories by now. But, in a weird way my father is responsible for keeping medicine in the object of my interest. I will keep this advice is mind.

If you can, have a conversation with a close friend about your reason for wanting to be a doctor.
Don't try to give a rational explanation of "I want to save lives" etc. Numerically, you probably will be able to save more lives pursuing engineering / pure science, or possibly even pursuing finance and donating your money to worthy causes. Figure out the reason you want to directly work with sick people and their families. That reason should be the basis of your personal statement.
Based on what you wrote, I suspect your father's passing will be key to explaining your motivation for pursuing medicine.

The reason I'm suggesting you speak with a friend about your motivations is because this is how I wrote my personal statement. I tried writing some non-personal personal statement (without mentioning my family), and they came out terribly. When I discussed my essay structure / motivations with my PI / colleagues, they all frowned and said "why do you want to be a doctor and not a pure-scientist?" When I answered, I spoke about my family. Thankfully, my PI simply said "ah. There's your personal statement. Write that."
I argued with him and he gave me some solid advice:
"This is why they call it a personal statement. It's personal. You need to get over it."

I personally felt guilty writing about my family, as I felt I was dishonoring my family member by using her death in my essay. Thankfully, my PI and the people I work with convinced me that I was wrong.

Now, onto the "tired of hearing the same old story" bit.
I was convinced of this too! However, I think this isn't the case. I think a lot of interviewers are checking that you understand what the career entails and are verifying that you are doing it for the right reason. You need to be genuine when you talk about your motivation, and the best way to do that is to make your personal statement truly personal.

Keep in mind that you are going to answer "why do you want to be a doctor" repeatedly during interviews.
If it is too difficult to talk about, either learn to talk about it or write about something else.

Now, to cancel out everything I wrote. I'm a huge nerd (I never volunteered for anything medical), so showing the compassionate side of my character in my personal statement was probably a little more important than for the average applicant. However, this is the MD-PhD forum, right?

 

[bd4727]

My MS degree is not free and I will have to take out large loans, but it is tuition reduced-but that is still a debt, but there is a lot of opportunity for research-but not as great as a research assistant full time of course.

Then definitely do NOT do this.

 

[Neuronix]

From your list I personally think I am missing #2 and #5 and maybe #6, I went to a small liberal arts school it is in the top 100 for only liberal arts, but not sure how it compares overall ranking, but the MS is at a tier 1 school.

@Garritano writes long posts that I just don't have time to respond to. That said, nobody cares about the tier of your undergrad or your masters. Even for those who do, a master's program at a "prestigious" program isn't going to change anything meaningfully in your application versus a non-prestigious one.

As you said it has also been recommended by previous posters as well.

Going back to your old lab is probably your best move as far as I can tell.

My MS degree is not free and I will have to take out large loans, but it is tuition reduced-but that is still a debt, but there is a lot of opportunity for research-but not as great as a research assistant full time of course.

@bd4727 is right. Don't do that.

I am the first child in my family pursuing education here, as well as higher education as well.

That doesn't matter much, if at all.

I also do not for one second believe that you getting publications is a magic fix for the rest of your application. Pre-meds on this forum overvalue publications (and a number of other factors) in this process. It would help to have publications and presentations, and you should be aiming for them, but it doesn't erase your low GPA.

So there is a lot of discussion here about things that matter minimally or simply do not matter. Your personal statement will only matter if it's terrible. Your GPA is still terribly low. You need to take some classes to raise it. Consider repeating some of the major pre-med courses you did poorly in and think you could improve. You need to get straight As from here on out. Your undergrad GPA is the one that matters--everyone knows that grad school level classes are very easy and almost everyone gets As.

 

[entropybrain]

Thank you everyone for your opinions. I now have a clearer ideas about my options.

 

[Annaleise]

Go for the Masters. It can only help, it can't hurt. And it's better than working as an RA somewhere, as long as the program is funded. Why people work in a lab and do the EXACT same work as someone who is also getting paid and advancing their education is beyond me.

I remember during interviews someone asked why I did grad school instead of a post bacc. I said my GPA/MCAT weren't even bad, I didn't need a "booster" - I did it because I wanted to, AND I never saw the point in post baccs. Why repeat classes you've already taken towards a degree no one will care about outside of adcoms? If med school doesn't work out or if you change your mind, at least an MS is something you can use!

 

[wholeheartedly]

Go for the Masters. It can only help, it can't hurt. And it's better than working as an RA somewhere, as long as the program is funded. Why people work in a lab and do the EXACT same work as someone who is also getting paid and advancing their education is beyond me.

I remember during interviews someone asked why I did grad school instead of a post bacc. I said my GPA/MCAT weren't even bad, I didn't need a "booster" - I did it because I wanted to, AND I never saw the point in post baccs. Why repeat classes you've already taken towards a degree no one will care about outside of adcoms? If med school doesn't work out or if you change your mind, at least an MS is something you can use!

Because admissions committees consider graduate grades to be largely inflated, so doing well in a masters program that isn't an SMP doesn't help demonstrate that someone can handle the rigors of medical school. That's a common refrain on here from admissions committee members.

 

[Annaleise]

I'm sincerely curious - why do adcoms think that 4.0s are just handed out during graduate school?
In my experience in masters and PhD programs, and even in teaching, it takes a lot of hard work and a fair amount of students struggle with the rigor of the coursework. The "average" at my engineering grad school was around a 3.5 or 3.6. Quals were 3-day long exams testing everything from Biochem mech to device design to diff eq and quantum chemistry. Professors didn't feel bad handing out B's because they'd say "this is grad school, GPA doesn't matter anyway - no one will ask you what your GPA was for your PhD." I found it harder to get good grades because undergrad profs know your GPA matters, grad school professors don't care.

Are biomedical programs graded more "generously?" Is that the norm in biosciences and my experiences are just outliers? I've always been curious.

Masters are academic and adcoms are looking for clinical, I get that. But I still advocate for getting a Masters instead of just working in the lab and doing the exact same work as the grad student next to you for for $12 an hour, while they get a degree at the end and you don't (This is only if it would be a funded program of course - I would never pay for any type research degree, especially $60-70k!).

 

[Neuronix]

I'm sincerely curious - why do adcoms think that 4.0s are just handed out during graduate school?

In my grad school courses, anyone who showed up to every class got at least a B. Minimum of effort got you an A-. Our lab put on a quantum physics course every year. One guy showed up to the class on the first day, never came back, and never handed in an assignment. We gave him a C. This was the general culture of grad school coursework in my department. As an undergrad, it was similar. I took some courses in the grad department and took them quite seriously. The lowest grades anyone ever got were Bs in very impressive and complicated sounding courses. The exams were a joke.

There are exceptions, but this is the stereotype among adcoms. From my experience it's with good reason. Undergrad pre-med courses and SMPs are very intense and more on par with medical school. It's a lot of rote memorization and regurgitation, for better or for worse.

Quals are a different story. I agree there. But those weren't graded.

Masters are academic and adcoms are looking for clinical, I get that. But I still advocate for getting a Masters instead of just working in the lab and doing the exact same work as the grad student next to you for for $12 an hour, while they get a degree at the end and you don't (This is only if it would be a funded program of course - I would never pay for any type research degree, especially $60-70k!).

I can see the logic in this. However, most of the grad programs I see people talking about on SDN are not subsidized. The ones that are subsidized are usually 2+ years and include a year of coursework, teaching, and thesis writing. These things don't help you get into an MD/PhD program. If anything, now the bar is higher on the master's graduate to have published, when 2 years focused in the lab full-time outside of a master's is more likely to get you published.

 

[LAtoDavis]

I remember during interviews someone asked why I did grad school instead of a post bacc. I said my GPA/MCAT weren't even bad, I didn't need a "booster" - I did it because I wanted to, AND I never saw the point in post baccs. Why repeat classes you've already taken towards a degree no one will care about outside of adcoms? If med school doesn't work out or if you change your mind, at least an MS is something you can use!

I agree. I had the opportunity to do Georgetown's SMP and a few others, but elected to do an MS in Pharmacology for the same reasons you mentioned. During my MD-only interviews this year some of the "adcoms" were impressed that I'd done an MS, too.

After reflecting on the pros/cons of what I've done as compared to people I've known that have done post-baccalaureate programs, being able to understand/do research >> whatever advantage there is in taking 1st year medical school coursework.