Will mediocre science prof. LoRs damage otherwise good references?

[dnyal]

Hello!

I have posted about this question here on Reddit (there is a lot more detail there), but I wanted to crosspost my question on SDN, since I know there are some adcoms here somewhere, and I'd value their input. Basically, I transferred from a CC to a big public uni with an AA degree. I'm a senior now, applying next year. With 200+ students in every class and dozens during office hours, I found it difficult to establish relationships with professors at my uni. So, I have asked some science prof. for LoRs, but the two with whom I had the most recent classes have declined. I don't think because of red flags. I've actually participated in class and gotten good grades. I am just an older non-trad and have responsibilities outside school that keep me from being a campus social butterfly, especially after having moved to such an expensive city to finish my BS.

Now, I have otherwise good and also great references from non-science professors at my previous CC (check my Reddit post for details) and one non-science professor who used to work at my uni. Thanks to my experience in patient care, I also have a very good reference from a former supervisor from my previous job. However, I have no references from science professors. I could maybe ask some from science professors at my CC, but I took classes with them over the pandemic with pre-recorded lectures and didn't keep contact with them, and I fear they'll just be able to write really generic references, perhaps out of pity.

What should I do? I don't have to take any more science classes for my major and can't afford to take more. Will generic LoRs from the science professors trump all other good references? Will med schools find it odd if I got most references from my CC? Should I include an LoR from my former supervisor at all? Thank you!

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[deleted1140269]

Some medical schools require LORs from one or two science professors, so I would look through your school list and see what each school's requirements are. I personally had LORs from 2 science professors (this is what is required at most Texas schools) who did not know me well due to the pandemic, and I have received interviews. I can't say how high or low quality any of my letters were because I don't know. I think a letter from your supervisor would be a great addition if they know you well and I think letters from employers can provide different insight to an adcom vs. another professor. Some schools only allow X amount of letters as well, so compile all your letters and make sure you meet the requirements of each school and pick the ones you believe will best display you as a candidate! Good luck.

 

[dnyal]

The fact that you have gotten interviews is encouraging! So, thanks for your reply. I was actually thinking that a letter from my former supervisor would be looked over, since it isn't academic, but you got a good point there. As for the amount of letters, my uni does a letter package of five letters, which counts as one letter for AMCAS purposes. So, I think I could technically add more than five letters on AMCAS. I have a list of about 20+ med schools with wildly different prerequisites and LoR requirements, but my university's letter packet service requires a minimum of two science LoRs, anyway 🤷‍♂️

 

[deleted1140269]

If you are required to submit them for your school then you will have to get the two science LORs regardless and I wouldn't worry too much about how it'll affect you since you don't have a choice anyway. Most schools cater the letter packet to make sure it'll be accepted at most schools, but again I would make sure your letters in the packet fulfill the LOR requirements at each individual school. If they don't then you'll need to have extra letters uploaded to AMCAS and sent to those specific schools.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I had to think about your question. Letters don't damage other LETTERS presuming they are written independently of each other, and a committee letter will rarely "damage" an applicant who is otherwise worthy and qualified.

What advice does your prehealth office give you about getting science professor letters, given that you have already had two people say no? (You should be happy they told you so... did they say why not? It may not have anything to do with you.) I'm sure the general advice I would give is to keep trying to ask other science professors from whom you took classes. If not, if you took classes at your CC, you can go back and ask professors there.

As for admissions decisions, there are many schools whose screeners and faculty will read the science letters. If they are required, I would hope there is a reason why they want the science letters in the first place. In your networking with schools, you should hopefully get assurance that as a non-trad applicant and given your journey to date (responsibilities outside school), and your (hypothetical/lack of strong) science letters will not adversely influence the overall holistic review of your application.

 

[dnyal]

What advice does your prehealth office give you about getting science professor letters, given that you have already had two people say no?

I haven't really talked to the advisors at our pre-health office yet. Unfortunately, they're booked out for the semester and won't advise via emails, only by appointment. However, I'll keep that in mind.

You should be happy they told you so... did they say why not?

No, they did not. Well, one said they were just visiting faculty and they didn't do LoRs. I'm not sure if they were just trying to brush me off politely. This one was a mostly online class with limited student interaction (we only had 10 lectures the entire semester). The other prof. was kind of rude and simply replied to my thoughtfully written email with "I decline, wish you luck."

I had to think about your question. Letters don't damage other LETTERS presuming they are written independently of each other, and a committee letter will rarely "damage" an applicant who is otherwise worthy and qualified.

I appreciate your reassuring advice! I can say I don't remember any of the schools in my list explicitly requiring science prof. letters; they all just mention they want a reference from someone who knew me well. I didn't even know I needed those science LoRs specifically until I read about the packet service my pre health office offers, and they are the ones requiring at least two. I went online and found posts of premeds who say they messed up by not having science LoRs, then I freaked out when my professors started declining.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Visiting professors and adjuncts are challenging to get strong letters because the lecturer is not committed in the same way more tenure-track or administrative faculty are. However they also tend to teach most of the introductory lecture and lab classes at a university. They usually sign yearly contracts with few benefits so they aren't perceived to be as helpful because there is no reward to do this service.

Ask the department chair to see if that person had any thoughts or suggestions. That could spark a conversation with him/her/them and your prehealth office about what to do. You won't be the first or last person to have this come up. Don't ask for a letter from the chair unless that person knows you well. Do ask for help to break the logjam and get you an appointment. If the requirement for 2 science letters is this challenging to fulfill, they need to figure out a solution for you or else you can just compile your own letters without them.

 

[dnyal]

Thank you! I hadn't thought of that.

 

[eigen]

I'm surprised even your upper level classes have that many students / are taught by adjuncts.

Have you not taken any smaller upper-division science courses at your current school?

 

[dnyal]

Yeah, but I should emphasize how big this school is: almost 70K students. The most famous major is the one I'm taking. The adjunct professor was for a (normally second year) general physics class, though. All my other 3000- and 4000-level classes have had around 200 students, even over the summer. The lines after class to ask questions to the professor are usually between 15-20 students.

I deeply and sincerely regret not having gone to this small, 4-year "honors" state college. The only reason I didn't choose it was because they don't use traditional grades there because they have very, VERY small classes akin to independent study led by a professor. The "grades" at the end of the semester are a written report from the professor. It's very unconventional but sounded amazing to me. However, I feared how med schools would take the no traditional grading part. I was later told by a professor at my CC that he inquired and was told by the state honors college that they give you grades if you need them for med school I wanted to explode because I had already started at my current uni.

 

[eigen]

It's a bit unclear to me, but I'm assuming you're majoring outside of the sciences?

If you have strong letters from professors in your major, then having "did well in class" letters from science faculty probably won't hugely negatively impact your application.

What about your chemistry and biology class series, maybe upper level labs? Have you done research?

 

[dnyal]

No, I’m majoring in science. What you mentioned is my concern: I’m majoring in science and my science professor might just give me “did well in class” letters. I love science, but I’m also passionate about other subjects outside sciences in which I get to be creative and express myself. My non-science professors picked up on that. For instance, I did research in linguistics because it’s something I’ve been into since I was a teenager. I understand that’s unconventional for a science major, but I have been taking so many science classes, I wanted to do something outside the field. I took chemistry and biology at my CC, but it was during the pandemic and never really interacted with any of the professors outside Zoom classes. And I’m also concerned about not having any letters from university professors.

 

[eigen]

Your situation is pretty unusual, from my experience. Even at a 70k undergrad school, I'd expect there to be opportunities for a major to get to know their faculty (clubs, research, conversations in office hours, your major advisor, etc.).

If you weren't majoring in the field, I think it would be more expected that your science letters might be more on the "DWIC" type. But majoring in the field and not having substantive letters from any major professors is a bit different.

As long as you have really strong letters from non-science faculty (i.e., the person you did linguistics research with) I don't think a DWIC letter will sink your application, but I think not having a good letter from your major faculty may stand out.