Will the Ireland Med Degree (MB BCh BAO +/ BMedSci) be useful in Canada like BSc

[BarryK]

Subject: Outside of Clinical Medicine, will the Ireland Medical Degree (MB BCh BAO +/- BMedSci) be useful in Canada like a BSc ?


Saw this article on the CBC's web page from Feb 22, 2010 (a few days ago): http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/02/22/canadian-students-medicine-overseas.html
"Too many Canadians studying medicine overseas, More medical schools opening but no residency positions"

The title and thesis of this article is that there are "too many" Canadian Students studying overseas. Who knows if they'll be more/less right in 5-6 years.

Anyway, for the purposes of this thread, let's assume that they are correct, and that a high school student like myself ends up with a medial degree from Ireland

So I would end up with this degree MB BCh BAO (and maybe a BMedSci if that is done during Medicine).

My question: If I give up on clinical Medicine, because that article is correct and I can't match to a residency, and return to Canada with those degrees, are those degrees going to be recognized in Canada by other Univesities as something equivalent to a BSc, or if it isn't, what type of further academic programs would I be able to get into with that degree in Canada (? public health, ? Medical Research ).

Or would the universities be saying "sorry you need to have an "actual" BSc, time to start again from square one".

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[Handsome88]

Subject: Outside of Clinical Medicine, will the Ireland Medical Degree (MB BCh BAO +/- BMedSci) be useful in Canada like a BSc ?


Saw this article on the CBC's web page from Feb 22, 2010 (a few days ago): http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/02/22/canadian-students-medicine-overseas.html
"Too many Canadians studying medicine overseas, More medical schools opening but no residency positions"

The title and thesis of this article is that there are "too many" Canadian Students studying overseas. Who knows if they'll be more/less right in 5-6 years.

Anyway, for the purposes of this thread, let's assume that they are correct, and that a high school student like myself ends up with a medial degree from Ireland

So I would end up with this degree MB BCh BAO (and maybe a BMedSci if that is done during Medicine).

My question: If I give up on clinical Medicine, because that article is correct and I can't match to a residency, and return to Canada with those degrees, are those degrees going to be recognized in Canada by other Univesities as something equivalent to a BSc, or if it isn't, what type of further academic programs would I be able to get into with that degree in Canada (? public health, ? Medical Research ).

Or would the universities be saying "sorry you need to have an "actual" BSc, time to start again from square one".

Why would you want to work as a BSc? You have far better options!
1) Stay in Ireland and do internship there and apply again
2) Do residency in the US then go back to Canada
3) Just apply to FM and be safe, you should be able to get in it is not impossible. Apply, re-apply, re-re-apply. Wasting 2-3 years of your life doing "nothing" is not like wasting the rest of your life doing something you hate.

You are graduating from a university that is better than many Canadian universities, why should we sound so defeated and give up? You are Canadian and certified from a recognized school, go to the courts if **** hits the fan and you will have your rights of working back in Canada. Fight for your rights, it's a free country (people are doing much more in countries that are not free). Be proud of yourself, your a @%!# Doctor damnit!

 

[BarryK]

>> Just apply to FM and be safe, you should be able to get in it is not impossible

Thanks for the reply. What does FM stand for?

 

[monkeyonthenet]

>> Just apply to FM and be safe, you should be able to get in it is not impossible

Thanks for the reply. What does FM stand for?

Family Medicine

 

[BarryK]

So far no replies to the basic question.... does anyone know any information on this question? (Perhaps someone has looked into it who planned to do research in Canada or go into Public Health or some other non-clinical use etc.)


"Are those degrees ((MB BCh BAO +/- BMedSc) going to be recognized in Canada by other Univesities as something equivalent to a BSc, or if it isn't, what type of further academic programs would I be able to get into with that degree in Canada (? public health, ? Medical Research ).

Or would the universities be saying "sorry you need to have an "actual" BSc, time to start again from square one".

 

[asd979]

Many of the programs are graduate entry only, therefore you will have to have a recognized degree from home to apply. Thus if you are worried about not matching (which you shouldn't be if you are reasonable about your expectations) you will still have a degree to fall back on.

 

[BarryK]

>>Many of the programs are graduate entry only, therefore you will have to have a recognized degree from home to apply. Thus if you are worried about not matching (which you shouldn't be if you are reasonable about your expectations) you will still have a degree to fall back on.

Thanks for the reply,

Please clarify. How would I have a degree to fall back on if you need to have a "recognized degree from home to apply" . Would an Irish Medical Degree be recognized back home in Canada at the bachelor's level when applying to a Master's program at a Canadian University?

 

[BarryK]

>>>Thus if you are worried about not matching (which you shouldn't be if you are reasonable about your expectations)

Lets assume that I (as a CSA in Ireland) would accept any match in Canada (e.g. Family Practice, return of service).

Are you saying that should be a 'worry-free' match if you're a good student, even though the # of graduating CSA students in Ireland and elsewhere is doubling over the next few years?

Not trying to be argumentitive, as a prospective student, I am just wondering what the #s are that you are seeing over there to have made that statement.

 

[rayjay]

Anyone in a medically-related graduate program can tell you that they've seen "MDs" working in labs as research assistants, etc. 9/10 these MDs graduated from a foreign country and are working in the labs to get their credentials up and network. They are listed on faculty members' websites as "Dr. John Doe, MD/MBBS/etc"

No one is going to downplay your degree from an Irish medical school. All it likely means is that you'll have to put in a little more effort on your part when it comes time to apply for residency,etc.

I myself am looking at the Australian route (unless I get positive news from ABP soon).

 

[jnuts]

Anyone in a medically-related graduate program can tell you that they've seen "MDs" working in labs as research assistants, etc. 9/10 these MDs graduated from a foreign country and are working in the labs to get their credentials up and network. They are listed on faculty members' websites as "Dr. John Doe, MD/MBBS/etc"

Seconded

 

[asd979]

>>>Thus if you are worried about not matching (which you shouldn't be if you are reasonable about your expectations)

Lets assume that I (as a CSA in Ireland) would accept any match in Canada (e.g. Family Practice, return of service).

Are you saying that should be a 'worry-free' match if you're a good student, even though the # of graduating CSA students in Ireland and elsewhere is doubling over the next few years?

Not trying to be argumentitive, as a prospective student, I am just wondering what the #s are that you are seeing over there to have made that statement.

The graduate entry programs require you to complete a bachelor's degree from a Canadian or American university in order to apply. Therefore should you not match, you will still have that previous degree in whatever you chose to do. Unfortunately, the degree you obtain from Ireland doesn't get you anything special if you don't match. It will just be another piece of paper to hang on your wall.

As for your second question, I am studying at UCC. The Canadians graduating out of here have not had any problems matching back home or in the US. Remember however, as a Canadian matching at home is MUCH more difficult than matching in the US.

 

[Handsome88]

The graduate entry programs require you to complete a bachelor's degree from a Canadian or American university in order to apply. Therefore should you not match, you will still have that previous degree in whatever you chose to do. Unfortunately, the degree you obtain from Ireland doesn't get you anything special if you don't match. It will just be another piece of paper to hang on your wall.

As for your second question, I am studying at UCC. The Canadians graduating out of here have not had any problems matching back home or in the US. Remember however, as a Canadian matching at home is MUCH more difficult than matching in the US.

UCC had no problem matching back, they were smart enough to go for FM (most of them) and not be ignorant enough to apply for rads or derm or some competitive surgical field that is almost impossible to get. Look up IMG friendly specialties and programs (i.e FM in Canada, FM/IM/Peds in US)...be humble and you should be able to get a spot! ~60% matched back from Ireland, I'm sure many of the 40% were going for some competitive fields and weren't up to par with their apps. I personally wouldn't risk wasting 5 years of my life to get a piece of paper that I can't use anywhere if I don't match!

 

[Arb]

Don't be fooled. FM is not a given and there are applicants who have not matched even going for FM (in 1st round) as it is getting harder and harder overall. What you will find is that to match in Canada, you have to be a strong applicant no matter what specialty you choose and I would say that all specialties (outside of perhaps FM, psych, etc.) are about EQUAL in competitiveness. I know classmates who matched in Gen Surg this year who would not have gotten a single Internal Med interview based purely on EE scores alone as IM has a huge applicant pool compared to surg and essentially 24 IMG spots in all of Canada (8 in gen surg). Some programs will also choose to go unfilled like Plastics this year.

The point is, you have to work hard even if you want to do FM. The success that Irish grads have enjoyed is because they are STRONG applicants. Students/graduates support each other and a common fear that we all develop since day 1 almost ensures a strong application. So go get your 99s on the USMLEs and 400+ MCCEE with 6 research projects under your belt. That is my advice.

 

[bigtymer]

How do you know which specialties they were applying to... does it say or is that a guess?

40% were going for some competitive fields and weren't up to par with their apps.

 

[bigtymer]

agreed...you speak the truth

Don't be fooled. FM is not a given and there are applicants who have not matched even going for FM (in 1st round) as it is getting harder and harder overall. What you will find is that to match in Canada, you have to be a strong applicant no matter what specialty you choose and I would say that all specialties (outside of perhaps FM, psych, etc.) are about EQUAL in competitiveness. I know classmates who matched in Gen Surg this year who would not have gotten a single Internal Med interview based purely on EE scores alone as IM has a huge applicant pool compared to surg and essentially 24 IMG spots in all of Canada (8 in gen surg). Some programs will also choose to go unfilled like Plastics this year.

The point is, you have to work hard even if you want to do FM. The success that Irish grads have enjoyed is because they are STRONG applicants. Students/graduates support each other and a common fear that we all develop since day 1 almost ensures a strong application. So go get your 99s on the USMLEs and 400+ MCCEE with 6 research projects under your belt. That is my advice.

 

[Handsome88]

Don't be fooled. FM is not a given and there are applicants who have not matched even going for FM (in 1st round) as it is getting harder and harder overall. What you will find is that to match in Canada, you have to be a strong applicant no matter what specialty you choose and I would say that all specialties (outside of perhaps FM, psych, etc.) are about EQUAL in competitiveness. I know classmates who matched in Gen Surg this year who would not have gotten a single Internal Med interview based purely on EE scores alone as IM has a huge applicant pool compared to surg and essentially 24 IMG spots in all of Canada (8 in gen surg). Some programs will also choose to go unfilled like Plastics this year.

The point is, you have to work hard even if you want to do FM. The success that Irish grads have enjoyed is because they are STRONG applicants. Students/graduates support each other and a common fear that we all develop since day 1 almost ensures a strong application. So go get your 99s on the USMLEs and 400+ MCCEE with 6 research projects under your belt. That is my advice.

What do you mean equal competitiveness. That is not true, IM =/= Gen Surg in competitiveness... In 2010, 6 matched in Gen Surg out of 48 (who applied for it as first choice), whereas 27 matched out of 144 (also 1st choice). VERY few match in their second choice. If you take the percentage of acceptance in each you would have IM>Surg. Also the applicants to Surg must have a stronger application. For example someone applying to rads needs to have many research experiences (otherwise you cannot match even if you are a CMG), but that's not the case for IM. When you are competing for 5 spots it will definitely be more competitive than if you are competing for 30.

True FM is also hard. But it is still the easiest to get into. I'd say Psych is second easiest followed by Peds...but they are much tougher to get into than FM. Also you have to consider US as a backup, if you are going for Gen Surg then even the US is going to be too tough (in fact tougher than Canada, you can only land a pre-lim).

Also, you are not being realistic...who has 99s and 6 research under their belt? None of the students in my university have that. This is medical school, we are getting MD's not PhDs here. If you want to be a lab rat then don't go to medical school, go do a masters and then a PhD. A UofT adcom said that they DO NOT CARE ABOUT RESEARCH (from PM101) for IM. So why would they want you to have 6 research projects?! You don't even have time to do that unless you take 2 years off after medical school. Don't be ridiculous. You have 4 years in medical school, you will be studying your ***** off during the school year trying to pass, and in second year summer you have to start your electives, write your step 1, in summer of 3rd year you have to write step 2, MCQEE's and take electives, so you are only left with first year summer to do a research project, that is if you can land one. Be more realistic...... Most people applying have NO research projects from medical school.

 

[Handsome88]

I know classmates who matched in Gen Surg this year who would not have gotten a single Internal Med interview based purely on EE scores alone

But their application was for Gen Surg, why would they even be competitive for IM? Their electives were probably all in Gen Surg and LORs form these docs... Are you saying that IM needs higher EE scores than Gen Surg?

 

[Arb]

Those are stats for one year. What you don't know is that IM had probably over 1000 applicants which dwarfs the GS pool to narrow down to the ~150 and ~50 applicants you see. I'm telling you now a good friend this year who matched gen surg would not a get a single IM interview. Not one. Another friend who graduated 2 years ago whose application was geared towards IM and Radiology had more Radiology interviews than IM and matched Rads. Anecdotal yes, but it's the trend you see every year.

Listen, you are in your first year in Ireland so you don't know the whole picture and that's not a knock against you. But, you should really take the words of your predecessors more seriously and learn some humility (a quality important in medicine). Take my advice if you want as it means nothing to me. Also, the double 99s, 400+ EE, 6 research projects are goals everyone should strive for and that's the point I am making. Don't settle for average.

For what it's worth, I got 99 on Step I and Step II, 400+ on MCCEE, and 6 research projects and various publications. I include my MSc projects but worked on 4 projects in med school with a mixture of bench work and more retrospective clinical research. I guess someone forgot to tell me it's not possible. Also, everywhere I interviewed ,and this includes UofT, remarked upon my research experience and said they view research very favourably. I don't know who the PM101 guy is but this included a UofT program director.

 

[Handsome88]

Those are stats for one year. What you don't know is that IM had probably over 1000 applicants which dwarfs the GS pool to narrow down to the ~150 and ~50 applicants you see. I'm telling you now a good friend this year who matched gen surg would not a get a single IM interview. Not one. Another friend who graduated 2 years ago whose application was geared towards IM and Radiology had more Radiology interviews than IM and matched Rads. Anecdotal yes, but it's the trend you see every year.

Listen, you are in your first year in Ireland so you don't know the whole picture and that's not a knock against you. But, you should really take the words of your predecessors more seriously and learn some humility (a quality important in medicine). Take my advice if you want as it means nothing to me. Also, the double 99s, 400+ EE, 6 research projects are goals everyone should strive for and that's the point I am making. Don't settle for average.

For what it's worth, I got 99 on Step I and Step II, 400+ on MCCEE, and 6 research projects and various publications. I include my MSc projects but worked on 4 projects in med school with a mixture of bench work and more retrospective clinical research. I guess someone forgot to tell me it's not possible. Also, everywhere I interviewed ,and this includes UofT, remarked upon my research experience and said they view research very favourably. I don't know who the PM101 guy is but this included a UofT program director.

Of course IM is going to have more applicants (and FM has even more), but most of these 1000 applicants have applied to IM as a second choice and 99% of them do not get it! Fewer will use Gen Surg as a second choice simply because it is too competitive, unless you apply to cardiac/orthopedic surgery as your first choice, and you will still not get Gen Surg if it was your 2nd (only 1 got in last year who listed it as 2nd choice).

You keep comparing people who had their applications geared towards another specialty to IM. These people will not be competitive to IM because their appliciation was not for IM and not because IM is more competitive! They simply did not list it as first choice, and did not have the app for it! You cannot assume that if they applied for it as first choice and had the app for it that they wouldn't get interviews...why would you assume that? How do you know?

 

[Arb]

I'm saying if their applications were geared towards IM but with the same EE and USMLE score, yes they would have a hard time in IM. It seems that IM is much more stats driven and before you ask, programs will consider your USMLE scores if you have them. You'll hear rumours that many places don't even consider the interview in their ranking and many people certainly got that vibe. Gen Surg seems to be interested in the complete picture and if you think about it there is one quality that is very important.

But their application was for Gen Surg, why would they even be competitive for IM? Their electives were probably all in Gen Surg and LORs form these docs... Are you saying that IM needs higher EE scores than Gen Surg?

 

[Handsome88]

ttp://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010R1_MatchResults/Active%20IMG%20Application%20Counts%20by%20Discipline_en.pdf
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010R1_MatchResults/IMG Match Results by Discipline_2nd Iteration_en.pdf

Gen Surg: 237 applicants, 48 as first choice, 6 accepted (from the 48), 1 from second choice (in 2nd iteration)
IM: 679 applicants, 144 first choice, 27 accepted from the 144, 11 in 2nd iteration.

Do the math. 2.95% accepted into Gen surge from overall applicants, 5.6% accepted into IM from overall applicants.

FM: 1415 applicants, 733 first choice, 108 matched from first choice, 59 others.

 

[Handsome88]

For what it's worth, I got 99 on Step I and Step II, 400+ on MCCEE, and 6 research projects and various publications. I include my MSc projects but worked on 4 projects in med school with a mixture of bench work and more retrospective clinical research. I guess someone forgot to tell me it's not possible. Also, everywhere I interviewed ,and this includes UofT, remarked upon my research experience and said they view research very favourably. I don't know who the PM101 guy is but this included a UofT program director.

That is impressive. But for someone who wants to apply to FM or a non-competitive specialty does not have to have these stats, which are not easy to get. Just because you happen to have an MSc and had the opportunity to get that many research projects done (which is amazing to do while keeping up with your academics), doesn't mean everyone can do it. That's why you got so many interviews. And I'm guessing you aren't applying to FM?

 

[Arb]

Of note, I'm only talking about 1st round which is much more selective. 2nd round is wide open and will include CMG spots so I won't attempt to deal with those numbers. Before this whole process started, I thought like everyone else. There is a reason why I wrote what I wrote, which I won't get into but think about it. There is a reason why I know why my friends who matched gen surg and ortho would have a very difficult time in Ontario IM programs. I'll leave it at that.

I'm not saying you have to have those stats for FM or a non-competitive specialty. What I'm trying to so is make sure that the new Irish students don't coast through med school and end up in a difficult situation come residency application time. I'm also trying to warn you guys that it's getting harder every year. Next year especially will be interesting. There, my good deed for today.

 

[Handsome88]

There is a reason why I wrote what I wrote, which I won't get into but think about it. There is a reason why I know why my friends who matched gen surg and ortho would have a very difficult time in Ontario IM programs. I'll leave it at that.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what that secret reason is. Is it something to do with Ontario IM programs?

Next year especially will be interesting. There, my good deed for today.

What's different next year? More applicants? You sound like you know things we don't. Enlighten us if you will.

You encourage us to apply for more competitive programs because they are 'not really more competitive', but at the same time tell us that it will get harder and harder even with FM.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

So far no replies to the basic question.... does anyone know any information on this question? (Perhaps someone has looked into it who planned to do research in Canada or go into Public Health or some other non-clinical use etc.)


"Are those degrees ((MB BCh BAO +/- BMedSc) going to be recognized in Canada by other Univesities as something equivalent to a BSc, or if it isn't, what type of further academic programs would I be able to get into with that degree in Canada (? public health, ? Medical Research ).

Or would the universities be saying "sorry you need to have an "actual" BSc, time to start again from square one".

Can't speak for Canada, but in the US, they are considered valid undergraduate degrees for higher studies. However, most states will not allow you to publicly use the title "Dr." or those credentials unless you are a licensed medical practitioner. High GRE scores would also be essential in pursuing higher education.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

1) Stay in Ireland and do internship there and apply again

Could you please provide some sources which state whether non-EU citizens are eligible for internship in Ireland? I have heard that non-EU citizens are not eligible for internship. I am highly interested in the Irish medical degree because of its extensive international validity (I enjoy traveling to different parts of the world). The Australian medical council requires Irish grads to have completed the intern year in order to qualify for licensure in Oz.

 

[Handsome88]

Could you please provide some sources which state whether non-EU citizens are eligible for internship in Ireland? I have heard that non-EU citizens are not eligible for internship. I am highly interested in the Irish medical degree because of its extensive international validity (I enjoy traveling to different parts of the world). The Australian medical council requires Irish grads to have completed the intern year in order to qualify for licensure in Oz.

They are eligible but not guaranteed an internship position, it was stated in my acceptance letter.

 

[jnuts]

Here's all the info about the intern year, including the eligibility requirements:

http://www.hse.ie/eng/Staff/Jobs/Interns_SHOs_Registrars/Intern_Doctors/

Could you please provide some sources which state whether non-EU citizens are eligible for internship in Ireland? I have heard that non-EU citizens are not eligible for internship. I am highly interested in the Irish medical degree because of its extensive international validity (I enjoy traveling to different parts of the world). The Australian medical council requires Irish grads to have completed the intern year in order to qualify for licensure in Oz.

 

[Arb]

You encourage us to apply for more competitive programs because they are 'not really more competitive', but at the same time tell us that it will get harder and harder even with FM.

If that's the message you take from my posts, I should leave the advising duties to others as I'm obviously not doing a good job. First of all, I never encouraged anyone to apply for a certain specialty. You choose what you can picture yourself doing for the next 35 years. That's it, no big secret.

My whole point is not that competitive programs "are not really more competitive". I'm saying they are ALL competitive. Gen Surg, Ortho, Rads, IM, etc. are all difficult to match (1st round) and it will get harder as the years go on. The idea of an "easy" or sure thing is becoming a fallacy. I have classmates who were shutout of FM and IM (1st round) in terms of interview invites. Another classmate who was shutout from all but 1 FM program but received an EM interview. There are also applicants this year who did not match FM in 1st round. That is the reality but I'm sure they will get something in 2nd round.

You wrote that 99s, 400+, 6 research projects is ridiculous and not realistic...until I told you those were my stats. Yes, that's not typical BUT I will freely admit I was stressed about the match because I met applicants who were as strong or stronger. Just look at bigtymer's credentials and the places he interviewed which are outstanding. Don't be surprised if in 4 years the person sitting next to you on your FM/IM/Surg interview has the exact or better stats.

My advice was and still is to go above and beyond what you think is necessary to make yourself the most competitive applicant that you can be. Aim for the 99s, 10 research projects, 5 electives. Don't settle for being average because average in CaRMS, and to a certain extent, NRMP won't cut it.

 

[jnuts]

You wrote that 99s, 400+, 6 research projects is ridiculous and not realistic...until I told you those were my stats. Yes, that's not typical BUT I will freely admit I was stressed about the match because I met applicants who were as strong or stronger...My advice was and still is to go above and beyond what you think is necessary to make yourself the most competitive applicant that you can be. Aim for the 99s, 10 research projects, 5 electives.

This thread has gotten off topic, but the subject matter is important. New thread moderator?

THE FIRST POINT: I totally agree there are NO walk-on programs!

THE BUT: Make sure that you are allocating your scarce resources properly. Different programs want different strengths and there is no way you can be outstandingly strong in all possible ways of judging applicants. Talk to Program Directors early and often such that you know what YOUR ideal program is looking for and spend your time making yourself the ideal candidate for that specific program by picking up the points IMGs normally miss.

THE EXAMPLES: I was once told that academics were scored out of 10 for one program. Those 10 points were part of a metric out of 50 used to rank the paper application. 5 of those 10 points were a loose estimate comprised of a rough understanding of your transcript if it was graded and understandable to the program. Most Irish ones are NOT and almost everyone got 4/5 by default. The other 5 points comprised all of your available standardized tests and almost every applicant got 4/5 there as well. A 400+ score on the EE is very nice to have; but spending 8 weeks studying to get it would not have given you a single extra point over the applicant who got a 320.

Research scoring had similar quirks; one low quality project, done in medical school, in another discipline, would get you 3/5 points. Six low quality projects would get you 3/5 points. There was an extra point for research relevant to the discipline and the final point was for being a first author on a large reseach project.

I won't say which program this scheme was from because I wasn't given explicit permission to do so. They didn't say to keep it to myself either. Regardless, there's a nice little power point that they'll show you if you're interested in this particular program.

For those of you who take the every point counts approach, I was told the the spread is usually pretty wide. And if you're wondering where the other 40 points come from just look at the CaRMS paper application; almost every section is scored in some way.

THE LESSON: Know what your target program wants before you allocate your resources such that you can maximize your returns. I've heard time-and-again from the people who read these applications that IMGs are often very strong applicants, but they miss the points because they don't know the rules of the game. I'm NOT saying that Arb or bigtymer are wrong; there may be programs that work exactly as they are describing, but not all of them select the same way.

One last thing--just so people don't go jumping off cliffs--lots of people matched to IM with EE scores under 350. And having a conversation about what exactly 'competitive' means is beside the point.

 

[Arb]

1) If you don't mind disclosing, how many ortho interviews did you receive?

2) Not all programs will use such an algorithm. The problem with tailoring your application to one program's algorithm is that other programs may use a completely different one or none at all. If you are interested in the US at all, then this strategy will fail as I have never heard of any program doing what you described. However, if you are set on a particular program, then definitely do what jnuts suggested and do your research on their selection criteria.

3) 99s and 400+ can only help you while a low score can only hurt you. You lose nothing by doing well on the MCCEE. It takes 4 weeks of studying and you don't lose elective time, lecture time, or research time. Only leisure time and surely that's a small sacrifice. I am fairly sure I was able to do more electives than almost anyone studying in Ireland and actively chose not to do more even when I had opportunity. I don't know why everyone thinks strong board scores and multiple electives are mutually exclusive. One of the advantages of studying in Ireland is that time is not a scarce resource (relatively)!

4) As for research, it is always considered. Again, strive for the best projects and as many as you can. 4 research projects and 4 first author publications will be noticed no matter what specialty you are applying for.

5) IM matches in first round: 1 UCD, 0 UCC, 4 RCSI, 0 Trinity (as far as I know and yes there were applicants gunning for IM). Quite a few people did not match IM and FM in 1st round this year unfortunately and will go the NRMP or 2nd round route. I personally did not meet anyone who received an interview with a 350 on the EE let alone match. There may be a couple so if anyone knows of someone, share the info. Certainly there are not lots of people matching in IM as there are only 5 from Irish schools this year. I am assuming you are not speaking for applicants from outside Ireland because that would be a stretch...

In the end, it will be up to you. Are you someone who feels more secure with 20 interviews or are you someone who is ok with 2 interviews at programs that fit your application?

 

[Arb]

From a PM I wrote to someone, this would be my sketch for what to do in each year:

1st Year: Research (summer and during school year).
2nd Year: Step 1 + 3 electives or 1-2 research projects + 2 elective
3-4 Year: 2-4 Electives, Step 2 CS, CK, MCCEE

Year = school year + summer before the next school year
Get published. I would aim for around 2 first author publications.
I should say the most important part of your application are your letters of recommendation. It wasn't my board scores or research that got the most attention during my open file interviews. It was my letters.

 

[Handsome88]

From a PM I wrote to someone, this would be my sketch for what to do in each year:

1st Year: Research (summer and during school year).
2nd Year: Step 1 + 3 electives or 1-2 research projects + 2 elective
3-4 Year: 2-4 Electives, Step 2 CS, CK, MCCEE

Year = school year + summer before the next school year
Get published. I would aim for around 2 first author publications.
I should say the most important part of your application are your letters of recommendation. It wasn't my board scores or research that got the most attention during my open file interviews. It was my letters.

Thanks Arb that's helpful.
How did you divide your electives in US and Canada each year?
Is there enough time to do research and get published in <2 months (while doing electives) during summer?
Did you find it easy to do research in Ireland during the year?
When did you study for and write the USMLE/MCCEE exactly? Was it during your school year or summers? What do you recommend?
Does doing informal observerships/shadowing help at all or is it for your personal knowledge of the fields?

 

[BarryK]

[Arb] 5) IM matches in first round: 1 UCD, 0 UCC, 4 RCSI, 0 Trinity (as far as I know and yes there were applicants gunning for IM). Quite a few people did not match IM and FM in 1st round this year unfortunately and will go the NRMP or 2nd round route. I personally did not meet anyone who received an interview with a 350 on the EE let alone match. There may be a couple so if anyone knows of someone, share the info. Certainly there are not lots of people matching in IM as there are only 5 from Irish schools this year. I am assuming you are not speaking for applicants from outside Ireland because that would be a stretch...

Thanks for the message Arb.

[arb] "Quite a few people did not match IM (Internal Medicine) and FM (Family Medicine) in 1st round this year unfortunately and will go the NRMP or 2nd round route."

That's disappointing news. In another post you mentioned that you expect things to be **worse** next year

[arb] "I'm also trying to warn you guys that it's getting harder every year. Next year especially will be interesting."

… is it expected to be worse because of the increased Irish Med class size - with 4 yr class graduating for first time along with 5/6 year classes graduating? Or is this just because of the overall increase (doubling in next 5 years http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/02/22/canadian-students-medicine-overseas.html ) in the Canadians Students studying in various countries?

 

[jnuts]

I applied to 4 ortho programs and I received 3 interviews. I also applied to 3 gen surg programs I had 2 interviews. My strategy worked; but there's no question that I applied selectively and did not use the US as a back-up.

Telling people to be the best in every aspect of the application is an obvious truism and therefore not useful advice.

Take what you will from my analysis.

I absolutely agree with you that Letters of Recommendation are the most important for post-interview ranking.

 

[Arb]

Apparently not obvious at all if you read this thread and no offense, you advocated against having an overall strong application in a way. What was definitely needed was some type of benchmark on strength. I'm not saying my view is correct as there really is no correct strategy. There are many ways to play the game and the final result is what matters and you have found great success with your's so kudos.

Electives: Do the majority of your electives in the country you would like to hopefully match. I would say 12 weeks of electives is minimum and very easy to do. If you can, a 3 week elective is perfect IMO.

Research: It depends entirely on your interests and skillsets. For those with a research background (MSc, PhD), you will be in demand. Don't expect to finish a research project in a couple of months so be prepared to do some work during the school year. Be creative.

Exams: I would do Step 1 during the school year leaving the summer for electives. Step 2 CS during your American electives. CK and EE in September of final year. Do not take any time off to study for any of these exams if you can. Incorporate your studying into your lectures/elective time.

Observerships are great. You can learn a lot and make important contacts. In your clinical years they should really be full clinical electives. Observerships can turn into electives as well once you start.


My application was more geared towards the American match which emphasizes strong scores and research regardless of the specialty. Before people freak out too much, 2nd round CaRMS this year has ~300 spots the majority open for IMGs. These include Orthopedics, Anesth, IM, and Radiology programs. Lots of IM and FM positions. Ortho and Rads does not seem to be in high demand this year compared to previous years.

 

[BarryK]

And if you're wondering where the other 40 points come from just look at the CaRMS paper application; almost every section is scored in some way.

I can't seem to access that document, perhaps you need to be a registered applicant. For those of us who aren't, perhaps you could summarize what might make up the other 40 points. (EE mark was 5, and research another 5)

 

[jnuts]

I can't seem to access that document, perhaps you need to be a registered applicant. For those of us who aren't, perhaps you could summarize what might make up the other 40 points. (EE mark was 5, and research another 5)

Sorry, I realize now its part of the AWS system so it gets locked this time of year and you do have to register.

But in a nutshell the components are:

• Medical Student Performance Record / Dean's letter
• Transcript
• Examinations
• Personal Letter
• Letters of Reference
• Undergraduate degree
• Post-graduate training
• Electives
• Observerships
• Research
• Publications
• Extra-cirricular activities
• Professional Memberships
• Volunteering

Other things that could be scored: demonstated interest in the specialty, diversity of electives, demonstrated interest in geographical location, rural background.

I think that's it, but I might be forgetting something. The details of how those combine in terms of that exact scoring system are irrelevant unless you're applying to that program in particular. I am completely in agreement with Arb that there are many different strategies and you need to know how your application is going to be scored by your program. If you take nothing else from this little dialogue please take this little piece of advice: talk to program directors (or any other reliable source you can find) to get the best idea you can of how applications are scored for your programs of interest.

What I meant by the truism quip was that it's all well and good to say you will get the best result if you have outstanding scores in every field. And if you're a student who can easily achieve all that in the time frame you'll match well regardless of what you read on these boards. It just goes without saying. But, if you're making decisions about how to allocate your time there may be other things to do that will improve your application that most people don't consider.

I know that IM puts a lot of weight on the EE. I've heard family does too, at least to the point of using it as a cut-off. The only point I'm trying to make is that not every program does. And I disagree with you that as things get more competitive all programs will look for higher and higher EE scores. Look how Canadian schools treat the MCAT. If a school even looks at the MCAT, once you reach the cut-off it doesn't matter if you've got the bare minimum or a 45. And yes I know that GPA is another story but bare with me.

If the EE--which is a pretty crappy test; way to short to be statistically valid--goes the way of the MCAT then people's success might depend on having a more complete application and demonstrating that you're more than a drone medical student. One of the things that may have contributed to my success was that my volunteering and extra-cirricular activities during medical school were as sutantial as my research activites. It all came up in interviews anyway.

All that is conjecture beyond my main point, which is do everything you can to find out how your program will judge your application and do it early enough that you can budget your limited time accordingly.

But if you're like Arb and can do everything at the highest standard with the minimum of effort you've nothing to worry about anyway.

Yes, my "lot's of people matched with scores under 350," was a bit of a stretch; but to be honest I was thinking about last year as well and my main goal was to stop a wave of panic with the idea that you can only match with a 400+ EE because I don't think that's entirely true.

 

[haus]

Hi Collegue

Stay away from Canada.

I learned the hard way.

So I am moving back to Europe in August. for good