withdrew from medical school, can I be reinstated years from now?

[luck12]

I will try to keep this post as simple as possible.

I completed 2 years at a DO school, passed COMLEX on first attempt (albeit rather low), but failed 2 rotations due to lack of overall clinical skills. I was forced to withdraw. I rushed into applying to pharmacy school, which I had no problem getting into. Circumstances led me to believe that I needed to see a psychiatrist, and I got diagnosed with ADD.

Dilemma: I've been haunted with a daunting decision: do I appeal (which I'd likely win) and return to my DO school? Or do I continue with pharmacy school? The meds do help, but the problem is that I don't know if ADD meds will just magically improve my clinical skills, and it would suck to fail again when I could've just gone on with pharmacy school.

Best possible solution: complete my 3 year pharmacy program with top tier grades, then seek reinstatement into my DO school, proving that I am capable of being a top tier health professional, and starting over at the start of 3rd year rather than first year (I understand I'd have to retake boards, but at that point my pharmacology foundation would be rock solid and would only need to shore up my pathophys and such). Only problem is, it will be well beyond the 6 year limit to finish the medical program.

My question is: what do you think my chances are of being reinstated at any DO institution? Has anyone ever encountered anything similar where exceptions are made for a particular student? I read somewhere of a student who withdrew 7 years ago and the school allowed him to come back.

I appreciate any input, and please let me know if you need any further details from me.

---

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[IslandStyle808]

Why didn't you take an LOA before making this decision? Did the school not allow this option?

 

[Mr Roboto]

Why do you think you'd "likely win" an appeal after being dismissed for a lack of clinical skills?

 

[kenjixshadow]

Why didn't you take an LOA before making this decision? Did the school not allow this option?

Idk anything about OP, but I can tell you that it's uncommon to fail one clerkship, let alone two! OP did not elaborate on what "lack of overall clinical skills" mean in his/her case. Most preceptors think that med students know nothing and don't expect much from us. You can literally show up to most rotations on time, don't speak until being talked to, glorified shadow for most days, and will almost always get pass or high pass.

 

[surfguy84]

Idk anything about OP, but I can tell you that it's uncommon to fail one clerkship, let alone two! OP did not elaborate on what "lack of overall clinical skills" mean in his/her case. Most preceptors think that med students know nothing and don't expect much from us. You can literally show up to most rotations on time, don't speak until being talked to, glorified shadow for most days, and will almost always get pass or high pass.

I was going to post something similar.. I'm only an M2, but from everything I've ever heard/seen posted on here, people don't fail out in years 3/4 like they do in years 1/2. I feel like there's something else going on here.

 

[luck12]

I was going to post something similar.. I'm only an M2, but from everything I've ever heard/seen posted on here, people don't fail out in years 3/4 like they do in years 1/2. I feel like there's something else going on here.

Thank you for your kind response.

What happened during the first failed rotation was that I was trying to study for usmle step 1, so I was hardly there mentally. I had no idea I was going to fail until the very last day. They had me do the next rotation under faculty so they could keep a watchful eye on me. Not until 3 weeks into the rotation did they tell me I was on track to fail, and so sure enough I failed. The option was either withdraw or appeal

I panicked and thought I needed a backup plan, so I decided to do pharmacy. I got a part time job to past the time, and I realized I had some similar unresolved problems. I went to a psychiatrist who diagnosed me with add. I take mess right now, which is good but I haven't been able to test its effectiveness much

I do not think I would have a problem winning an appeal and being reinstated, however my concern is whether the meds will help. If my problems remain unresolved and I fail out again, that will hurt even more than I already do

 

[luck12]

Idk anything about OP, but I can tell you that it's uncommon to fail one clerkship, let alone two! OP did not elaborate on what "lack of overall clinical skills" mean in his/her case. Most preceptors think that med students know nothing and don't expect much from us. You can literally show up to most rotations on time, don't speak until being talked to, glorified shadow for most days, and will almost always get pass or high pass.

By lack of clinical skills I mean , for example, that I don't take a history that is detailed enough or is missing relevant information. I think the problem is that I just spit out a bunch of information, and the doctors weren't happy because it showed a lack of critical thinking skills

 

[luck12]

Why do you think you'd "likely win" an appeal after being dismissed for a lack of clinical skills?

I know that having clinical skills is a part of pharmacy school, although admittedly not as extensive as medical school. I feel like pharmacy school is relevant enough (as opposed to, say I did something completely irrelevant like work in business or something)

Also, I needed presence of new information to win an appeal, and having a new diagnosis of add definitely warrants that

 

[darknecrosforte]

Thank you for your kind response.

What happened during the first failed rotation was that I was trying to study for usmle step 1, so I was hardly there mentally. I had no idea I was going to fail until the very last day. They had me do the next rotation under faculty so they could keep a watchful eye on me. Not until 3 weeks into the rotation did they tell me I was on track to fail, and so sure enough I failed. The option was either withdraw or appeal

I panicked and thought I needed a backup plan, so I decided to do pharmacy. I got a part time job to past the time, and I realized I had some similar unresolved problems. I went to a psychiatrist who diagnosed me with add. I take mess right now, which is good but I haven't been able to test its effectiveness much

I do not think I would have a problem winning an appeal and being reinstated, however my concern is whether the meds will help. If my problems remain unresolved and I fail out again, that will hurt even more than I already do

I missed the part where you sought feedback on how you screwed up and made it clear you were going to take your education seriously. (Hint: The real problem is probably not clinical skills... but the issue definitely contributes to why you are not as clinically competent as you should be)

 

[SOOyC52H1Sof]

OP, whatever you do, I wish you luck!

 

[surfguy84]

Thank you for your kind response.

What happened during the first failed rotation was that I was trying to study for usmle step 1, so I was hardly there mentally. I had no idea I was going to fail until the very last day. They had me do the next rotation under faculty so they could keep a watchful eye on me. Not until 3 weeks into the rotation did they tell me I was on track to fail, and so sure enough I failed. The option was either withdraw or appeal

I panicked and thought I needed a backup plan, so I decided to do pharmacy. I got a part time job to past the time, and I realized I had some similar unresolved problems. I went to a psychiatrist who diagnosed me with add. I take mess right now, which is good but I haven't been able to test its effectiveness much

I do not think I would have a problem winning an appeal and being reinstated, however my concern is whether the meds will help. If my problems remain unresolved and I fail out again, that will hurt even more than I already do

You say you were hardly there mentally. What does this mean exactly?

 

[hallowmann]

I will try to keep this post as simple as possible.

I completed 2 years at a DO school, passed COMLEX on first attempt (albeit rather low), but failed 2 rotations due to lack of overall clinical skills. I was forced to withdraw. I rushed into applying to pharmacy school, which I had no problem getting into. Circumstances led me to believe that I needed to see a psychiatrist, and I got diagnosed with ADD.

Dilemma: I've been haunted with a daunting decision: do I appeal (which I'd likely win) and return to my DO school? Or do I continue with pharmacy school? The meds do help, but the problem is that I don't know if ADD meds will just magically improve my clinical skills, and it would suck to fail again when I could've just gone on with pharmacy school.

Best possible solution: complete my 3 year pharmacy program with top tier grades, then seek reinstatement into my DO school, proving that I am capable of being a top tier health professional, and starting over at the start of 3rd year rather than first year (I understand I'd have to retake boards, but at that point my pharmacology foundation would be rock solid and would only need to shore up my pathophys and such). Only problem is, it will be well beyond the 6 year limit to finish the medical program.

My question is: what do you think my chances are of being reinstated at any DO institution? Has anyone ever encountered anything similar where exceptions are made for a particular student? I read somewhere of a student who withdrew 7 years ago and the school allowed him to come back.

I appreciate any input, and please let me know if you need any further details from me.

OP, if you will be over the 6 year limit, its safe to assume that you will never be able to return. How long ago was that 7 year withdrawn student able to return? Did they actually return after 7 years, or did they redo their whole degree? Short of combined degrees, its pretty much impossible for them to be able to do that now unless they were grandfathered in, as in they started before the 6 year rule was put in place. This is not the case with you.

If you're really curious, you could try and appeal, but honestly, you withdrew. Can you appeal a withdrawal at your school? What's the policy? None of this would be a sure thing, so I wouldn't assume as much. Even though the ADD is a real diagnosis, for right or wrong, people don't really take adult diagnosed ADD seriously, especially if you were able to get through college and 2 years of med school with it. If you want you can attempt now to get reinstated, attempt to transfer to another DO school with credit, or attempt to reapply to medical schools from the beginning again. I would not leave your pharmacy program until you have a clear path/acceptance/reinstatement lined up.

Alternatively, you could just finish out pharmacy and be a pharmacist, which is honestly a pretty good job both financially and lifestyle-wise. Lacking "critical thinking skills", being so preoccupied with studying for Step 1 that you never sought out feedback from your attendings, and being so uninterested in your initial rotations that you seemed to have tried to coast are honestly huge red flags. It also doesn't show the best insight on your part to have done poorly on the COMLEX and turn around and want to take the USMLE.

Only you can decide what is best for you, either way though, I'd keep the pharmacy school on the table. In your situation, I'd cut my losses, pretend I always wanted to be a pharmacist, get through the degree and have a much better life than the majority of people in this country. Good luck with whatever you decide.

I was going to post something similar.. I'm only an M2, but from everything I've ever heard/seen posted on here, people don't fail out in years 3/4 like they do in years 1/2. I feel like there's something else going on here.

Its certainly less common for people to fail out of 3rd/4th year (especially the latter) than it is to fail out of 1st/2nd, but a decent number actually do fail out of 3rd year, because either they fail boards, don't study for shelfs, or they hate or are just not good at the clinical side of medicine. A lot of people also hate rotations, which is a bad sign to me. Its one thing to hate being a 3rd year, especially when you're doing very little and constantly judged/criticized, but the part of actually using your knowledge clinically should be exciting for almost anyone in med school.

 

[Mr Roboto]

I know that having clinical skills is a part of pharmacy school, although admittedly not as extensive as medical school. I feel like pharmacy school is relevant enough (as opposed to, say I did something completely irrelevant like work in business or something)

Also, I needed presence of new information to win an appeal, and having a new diagnosis of add definitely warrants that

By lack of clinical skills I mean , for example, that I don't take a history that is detailed enough or is missing relevant information. I think the problem is that I just spit out a bunch of information, and the doctors weren't happy because it showed a lack of critical thinking skills

How can you not be certain of why you failed two rotations? You can't just "think the problem is..." you need to know what the problem was and then remedy the problem. If you were dismissed for lacking clinical skills, and have done nothing to acquire more/improve your clinical skills, then I wouldn't anticipate your school accepting your appeal this far out.

What were the exact reasons you failed?

 

[bunchesonothing]

I understand where you all are coming from in your assessments of the situation, but I think that there may be a disconnect in an understanding of ADHD. Maybe.

When I read this post, and even, the "think the problem is...," statement, this soooo reminded me of my husband with ADHD.

To say that OP has done nothing to acquire more/improve clinical skills may not necessarily be true, when it is rather possible that the ADHD caused a serious impairment to said skills. And OP is working on it.

ADHD is not necessarily just an impairment of attention to detail and being hyperactive.

Saying that their first two years were relatively fine and may not make a good case for the ADHD affecting the clinical years, I find to be problematic. OP may have had to put in even more effort that other students to reap the minimal result some might hope for. Or, there is a hyperfocus element of ADHD where sufferers can focus on some things intently almost to unpurposefully shutting everything else, any other mental stimulus, out around them... in this case, to reap the minimal result. But this does not translate across anything you want it to. It can't be turned on and off at will.

Plus I'd imagine that clinical years utilize a whole additional skill sets that don't necessarily directly translate to those used the first two years.

Treating the ADHD with a coupled strong attempt at self-awareness, and a strong attempt to work with others on any deficits that others may have reported, may help tremendously. Some with ADHD are not remotely aware of how they come off to others on an interpersonal level. They are sometimes not in touch with their own feelings or concerns, and even if they were, might have a serious problem relaying it to others. Someone with ADHD may be told exactly what a problem is, but might not actually fully "get it" because their perception of the situation they experienced is so very different from that of the others that are assessing them. So, don't come down on OP too hard, if they are showing that they are trying to work and grow. That's huge!

Part of the problem with ADHD is that people are always, for various reasons or another, telling sufferers that they are not working hard enough in a certain guises... because to most it appears that it can't be any other way (how could this person simply not see what I see?).... but living with an ADHD brain is exhausting.

I know by personal experience that some of the issues I've addressed earlier can get better with meds and self-reflection.

However, I can't promise that OP will get the right people to understand or sympathize with their case.

 

[darknecrosforte]

I understand where you all are coming from in your assessments of the situation, but I think that there may be a disconnect in an understanding of ADHD. Maybe.

When I read this post, and even, the "think the problem is...," statement, this soooo reminded me of my husband with ADHD.

To say that OP has done nothing to acquire more/improve clinical skills may not necessarily be true, when it is rather possible that the ADHD caused a serious impairment to said skills. ADHD is not necessarily just an impairment of attention to detail and being hyperactive.

Saying that their first two years were relatively fine and may not make a good case for the ADHD affecting the clinical years, I find to be problematic. OP may have had to put in even more effort that other students to reap the minimal result some might hope for. Or, there is a hyperfocus element of ADHD where sufferers can focus on some things intently almost to unpurposefully shutting everything else, any other mental stimulus, out around them... to reap the minimal result. But this does not translate across anything you want it to. Plus I'd imagine that clinical years utilize a whole additional skill sets that don't necessarily directly translate to those used the first two years.

Treating the ADHD with a coupled strong attempt at self-awareness, and a strong attempt to work with others on any deficits that others may have reported, may help tremendously. Some with ADHD are not remotely aware of how they come off to others on an interpersonal level. They are sometimes not in touch with their own feelings or concerns, and even if they were, might have a serious problem relaying it to others. Someone with ADHD may be told exactly what a problem is, but might not actually fully "get it" because their perception of the situation they experienced is so very different from that of the others that are assessing them. So, don't come down on OP too hard, if they are showing that they are trying to work and grow.

Part of the problem with ADHD is that people are always, for various reasons or another, telling sufferers that they are not working hard enough in a certain guises... because to most it appears that it can't be any other way (how could this person simply not see what I see?).... but living with an ADHD brain is exhausting.

I know by personal experience that some of the issues I've addressed earlier can get better with meds and self-reflection.

I can't promise that OP will get the right people to understand or sympathize with their case.

Where did OP mention hyperactivity? In fact, his description of events make it more likely he is on the high-functioning autism spectrum, but the DSM-5 is largely an arbitrary tome of not-fully-understood symptoms and patterns. It is highly likely that my dear younger brother would have been in a similar situation as OP, since he doesn't pick up on overt social cues to change his behavior like having a listener yawn repeatedly as he speaks. And he would've sought detailed feedback immediately while working with the faculty that watched over him during the second rotation so that he would not find out 3 weeks in that he was "going to fail." However, he would definitely get annoyed at a possible SJW using his plight for moral posturing. OP was a candidate to be granted the privilege of practicing medicine, which is not a right. As many have attested, it is rare to fail out of year 3 without screwing up shelf examinations or having unprofessional behavior repeatedly. Rather than understanding and keyboard heroism, OP would probably benefit the most from seeing a possible perspective of those who flunked him. If OP does have some cognitive/EQ issue, you have to actually go much harder to get the message across via forum post. Presenting the idea that "unprofessional behavior is rude" to my brother might get "IDGAF" as a response, but if you show how it could possibly harm/kill a patient, he'll change really quick.

Humans are problematic. The weaker ones try to externalize the causes of their current state and try to remove as much moral agency as humanly possible so that they can compete with others who may be more present or choose to make 3rd year clinical learning a priority. Whether the external forces are a disease or tragic event is irrelevant, if there is apathy/incompetence/other priorities, the patient could get screwed.

Maybe your empathy is on-point, but you didn't mention that you have ADHD. Even if ADHD minds consume more glucose per hour or process more operations than a "normal" brain, the person would sleep/eat more to compensate. This is more externalization. It is better that OP accepts full culpability for not caring enough about the tasks he was supposed to be working on, rather than working to improve the defense that he was powerless to some (possibly not real) disease that you even say is improved in relatively easy ways. This highlights the real issue, I think, that OP didn't really understand or care enough about becoming a physician.

 

[DokterMom]

What happened during the first failed rotation was that I was trying to study for usmle step 1, so I was hardly there mentally. I had no idea I was going to fail until the very last day.

I panicked and thought I needed a backup plan, so I decided to do pharmacy.

By lack of clinical skills I mean , for example, that I don't take a history that is detailed enough or is missing relevant information. I think the problem is that I just spit out a bunch of information, and the doctors weren't happy because it showed a lack of critical thinking skills

The problems you cite boil down to executive function deficits: ineffective prioritization, organization and clarity of focus. These are all symptomatic of ADD and may very well be helped by your meds. Or not. Your panic response and immediate jump to pharm will not work in your favor. Are you committed to medicine or not?

If I were on your school's re-admissions committee, I would want to see evidence that you clearly understand where you went wrong (not seeing that yet), that you've taken concrete and meaningful steps to remediate your deficiencies (not seeing that yet), that you ARE committed to medicine (not seeing that yet) and that this time through, you will succeed.

 

[bunchesonothing]

Where did OP mention hyperactivity? In fact, his description of events make it more likely he is on the high-functioning autism spectrum, but the DSM-5 is largely an arbitrary tome of not-fully-understood symptoms and patterns. It is highly likely that my dear younger brother would have been in a similar situation as OP, since he doesn't pick up on overt social cues to change his behavior like having a listener yawn repeatedly as he speaks. And he would've sought detailed feedback immediately while working with the faculty that watched over him during the second rotation so that he would not find out 3 weeks in that he was "going to fail." However, he would definitely get annoyed at a possible SJW using his plight for moral posturing. OP was a candidate to be granted the privilege of practicing medicine, which is not a right. As many have attested, it is rare to fail out of year 3 without screwing up shelf examinations or having unprofessional behavior repeatedly. Rather than understanding and keyboard heroism, OP would probably benefit the most from seeing a possible perspective of those who flunked him. If OP does have some cognitive/EQ issue, you have to actually go much harder to get the message across via forum post. Presenting the idea that "unprofessional behavior is rude" to my brother might get "IDGAF" as a response, but if you show how it could possibly harm/kill a patient, he'll change really quick.

Humans are problematic. The weaker ones try to externalize the causes of their current state and try to remove as much moral agency as humanly possible so that they can compete with others who may be more present or choose to make 3rd year clinical learning a priority. Whether the external forces are a disease or tragic event is irrelevant, if there is apathy/incompetence/other priorities, the patient could get screwed.

Maybe your empathy is on-point, but you didn't mention that you have ADHD. Even if ADHD minds consume more glucose per hour or process more operations than a "normal" brain, the person would sleep/eat more to compensate. This is more externalization. It is better that OP accepts full culpability for not caring enough about the tasks he was supposed to be working on, rather than working to improve the defense that he was powerless to some (possibly not real) disease that you even say is improved in relatively easy ways. This highlights the real issue, I think, that OP didn't really understand or care enough about becoming a physician.

Holy hell, man.

I don't have ADHD, but I have a husband with it, and we've been living together for 10 years. If I treated him the tough love way you're suggesting, we would have divorced years ago. Having experience doesn't make me an SJW or participating in moral posturing. It just means I have a perspective.

It's not necessarily as simple as "caring enough."

And I never said that those ways are easy. Not by a long shot. Since when is self reflection easy especially for someone who may have self-reflection impairment easy? Plus having someone readily accept that reality may not often be as they perceive it. I think that's a tall order. Not easy.

That you say "possibly not real disease" is rather telling, to me. So I guess this will be my last post here, unless someone else engages me.

 

[DokterMom]

Where did OP mention hyperactivity? In fact, his description of events make it more likely he is on the high-functioning autism spectrum, but the DSM-5 is largely an arbitrary tome of not-fully-understood symptoms and patterns. It is highly likely that my dear younger brother would have been in a similar situation as OP, since he doesn't pick up on overt social cues to change his behavior like having a listener yawn repeatedly as he speaks. And he would've sought detailed feedback immediately while working with the faculty that watched over him during the second rotation so that he would not find out 3 weeks in that he was "going to fail." However, he would definitely get annoyed at a possible SJW using his plight for moral posturing. OP was a candidate to be granted the privilege of practicing medicine, which is not a right. As many have attested, it is rare to fail out of year 3 without screwing up shelf examinations or having unprofessional behavior repeatedly. Rather than understanding and keyboard heroism, OP would probably benefit the most from seeing a possible perspective of those who flunked him. If OP does have some cognitive/EQ issue, you have to actually go much harder to get the message across via forum post. Presenting the idea that "unprofessional behavior is rude" to my brother might get "IDGAF" as a response, but if you show how it could possibly harm/kill a patient, he'll change really quick.

Humans are problematic. The weaker ones try to externalize the causes of their current state and try to remove as much moral agency as humanly possible so that they can compete with others who may be more present or choose to make 3rd year clinical learning a priority. Whether the external forces are a disease or tragic event is irrelevant, if there is apathy/incompetence/other priorities, the patient could get screwed.

Maybe your empathy is on-point, but you didn't mention that you have ADHD. Even if ADHD minds consume more glucose per hour or process more operations than a "normal" brain, the person would sleep/eat more to compensate. This is more externalization. It is better that OP accepts full culpability for not caring enough about the tasks he was supposed to be working on, rather than working to improve the defense that he was powerless to some (possibly not real) disease that you even say is improved in relatively easy ways. This highlights the real issue, I think, that OP didn't really understand or care enough about becoming a physician.

Very insightful post. Clearly you've spent some time with a person with HFA and have developed insight into what it's like living with it. Please spread the word to your colleagues --

 

[DokterMom]

Holy hell, man.

I don't have ADHD, but I have a husband with it, and we've been living together for 10 years. If I treated him the tough love way you're suggesting, we would have divorced years ago. Having experience doesn't make me an SJW or participating in moral posturing. It just means I have a perspective.

It's not necessarily as simple as "caring enough."

And I never said that those ways are easy. Not by a long shot. Since when is self reflection easy especially for someone who may have self-reflection impairment easy? Plus having someone readily accept that reality may not often be as they perceive it. I think that's a tall order. Not easy.

That you say "possibly not real disease" is rather telling, to me. So I guess this will be my last post here, unless someone else engages me.

You can both be right, and having a "brass tacks / bottom line" perspective on things does not necessarily indicate a lack of empathy. You don't have to "blame" someone with ADD / ASD to acknowledge the deficits and the difficulties those deficits can present in a patient-contact environment.

 

[bunchesonothing]

You can both be right, and having a "brass tacks / bottom line" perspective on things does not necessarily indicate a lack of empathy. You don't have to "blame" someone with ADD / ASD to acknowledge the deficits and the difficulties those deficits can present in a patient-contact environment.

I personally don't have a problem with a brass tacks perspective. There is always room for multiple perspectives. It was the way I was engaged.

 

[Goro]

I hate to say this but the odds are so overwhelming that your medical career is over.

You'd be DOA at my school.

Why would a school reinstate you? How have have you kept up your skills?

I have a little trouble believing that you made it through OMSI and II, and then passed COMLEX with untreated ADD, only to then have the ADD be the cause of your rotation failures.

Also, from being an SDN member for 5+ years, AND from being a dad, I know that there are two sides to every story, and there is more to this one than OP has told us.

I will try to keep this post as simple as possible.

I completed 2 years at a DO school, passed COMLEX on first attempt (albeit rather low), but failed 2 rotations due to lack of overall clinical skills. I was forced to withdraw. I rushed into applying to pharmacy school, which I had no problem getting into. Circumstances led me to believe that I needed to see a psychiatrist, and I got diagnosed with ADD.

Dilemma: I've been haunted with a daunting decision: do I appeal (which I'd likely win) and return to my DO school? Or do I continue with pharmacy school? The meds do help, but the problem is that I don't know if ADD meds will just magically improve my clinical skills, and it would suck to fail again when I could've just gone on with pharmacy school.

Best possible solution: complete my 3 year pharmacy program with top tier grades, then seek reinstatement into my DO school, proving that I am capable of being a top tier health professional, and starting over at the start of 3rd year rather than first year (I understand I'd have to retake boards, but at that point my pharmacology foundation would be rock solid and would only need to shore up my pathophys and such). Only problem is, it will be well beyond the 6 year limit to finish the medical program.

My question is: what do you think my chances are of being reinstated at any DO institution? Has anyone ever encountered anything similar where exceptions are made for a particular student? I read somewhere of a student who withdrew 7 years ago and the school allowed him to come back.

I appreciate any input, and please let me know if you need any further details from me.

 

[darknecrosforte]

Holy hell, man.

I don't have ADHD, but I have a husband with it, and we've been living together for 10 years. If I treated him the tough love way you're suggesting, we would have divorced years ago. Having experience doesn't make me an SJW or participating in moral posturing. It just means I have a perspective.

It's not necessarily as simple as "caring enough."

And I never said that those ways are easy. Not by a long shot. Since when is self reflection easy especially for someone who may have self-reflection impairment easy? Plus having someone readily accept that reality may not often be as they perceive it. I think that's a tall order. Not easy.

That you say "possibly not real disease" is rather telling, to me. So I guess this will be my last post here, unless someone else engages me.

"Problematic" is a common giveaway of SJW conditioning. As is the passive-aggressive "taking the moral, but not logical high ground" that permeates your reasoning. And your line of thinking concerning OP's disease is self-contradicting. OP would have a very, very HIGH ability to self-reflect, but would need to direct it to the correct aspects, if the ADD assumptions are correct. The argument about your husband could easily go the other way. If my wife didn't call me out on my negative behaviors, I would have divorced her years ago. I think it would be valid to interpret your advice and statements as contempt for OP because it assumes that his/her free will makes less of an impact on his/her outcomes than external factors - and in the case of your husband, assumes weakness or inability to take criticism. There's a perspective for you.

But the bolded is the defining factor of SJW culture. My goodness. More externalization. It doesn't help to externalize. No one respects that approach anyways. Might as well assume as much control as possible over your own destiny, even if you actually can't. When people see that a person is trying to take as much responsibility for themselves, even for things that are out of their control, they tend to trust that person more.

I am vaguely aware of how the DSM standards are decided and such standards would 100% not be acceptable by "hard sciences". You rarely can SHOW the disease in any physical way via tests/imaging, most of the diseases are rational adaptations to external stimuli (PTSD ~ ADHD ~ vigilance/survival), and some of the diseases are advantageous in other societies/cultures - indicating the further uselessness of an attempt to justify the existence of a highly profitable industry using the product (DSM manuals). Etiology is a nightmare. Even for Alzheimers, we know about hyper/hypo-phosphorylation of proteins, but that doesn't answer how this starts or why is it mostly white women demographically, etc. And THEN when people try to point out some factors contributing to the adaptations that manifest as ADHD or ASD (parenting styles/practices, infant circumcision, etc.) there is often a fury storm that typically arises from SJWs or one specific sex *cough cough. There is value in exploring how to deal with the challenges, but not in coddling or giving false hope to future readers of SDN threads.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Idk anything about OP, but I can tell you that it's uncommon to fail one clerkship, let alone two! OP did not elaborate on what "lack of overall clinical skills" mean in his/her case. Most preceptors think that med students know nothing and don't expect much from us. You can literally show up to most rotations on time, don't speak until being talked to, glorified shadow for most days, and will almost always get pass or high pass.

Thank you for your kind response.

What happened during the first failed rotation was that I was trying to study for usmle step 1, so I was hardly there mentally. I had no idea I was going to fail until the very last day. They had me do the next rotation under faculty so they could keep a watchful eye on me. Not until 3 weeks into the rotation did they tell me I was on track to fail, and so sure enough I failed. The option was either withdraw or appeal

I panicked and thought I needed a backup plan, so I decided to do pharmacy. I got a part time job to past the time, and I realized I had some similar unresolved problems. I went to a psychiatrist who diagnosed me with add. I take mess right now, which is good but I haven't been able to test its effectiveness much

I do not think I would have a problem winning an appeal and being reinstated, however my concern is whether the meds will help. If my problems remain unresolved and I fail out again, that will hurt even more than I already do

I understand that its rare for student to do poorly in 3rd year. What I want to understand is did the school not allow an LOA as an option?

 

[Goro]

My notion is that OP has more than s/he is letting on, and may have been on very thin ice. Hence, the two failures merited dismissal, not a LOA.

At my school, students with more extreme behavioral issues that bleed into academics tend to get contractually bound to live up to certain standards, else face dismissal. No middle ground.

I understand that its rare for student to do poorly in 3rd year. What I want to understand is did the school not allow an LOA as an option?

 

[IslandStyle808]

My notion is that OP has more than s/he is letting on, and may have been on very thin ice. Hence, the two failures merited dismissal, not a LOA.

At my school, students with more extreme behavioral issues that bleed into academics tend to get contractually bound to live up to certain standards, else face dismissal. No middle ground.

Perfect explanation. Thanks!

 

[hallowmann]

I understand that its rare for student to do poorly in 3rd year. What I want to understand is did the school not allow an LOA as an option?

I know people that have failed multiple rotations and the only real effect is getting "off-schedule" and having to redo the rotations. Most schools try hard to keep people when they get to the 3rd and 4th year, at least from what I've seen, but who knows?

 

[tennischamp822]

.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

Holy student loans batman. I wish you the very best because you are going down a rough path for sure.

 

[073116]

I understand where you all are coming from in your assessments of the situation, but I think that there may be a disconnect in an understanding of ADHD. Maybe.

When I read this post, and even, the "think the problem is...," statement, this soooo reminded me of my husband with ADHD.

To say that OP has done nothing to acquire more/improve clinical skills may not necessarily be true, when it is rather possible that the ADHD caused a serious impairment to said skills. And OP is working on it.

ADHD is not necessarily just an impairment of attention to detail and being hyperactive.

Saying that their first two years were relatively fine and may not make a good case for the ADHD affecting the clinical years, I find to be problematic. OP may have had to put in even more effort that other students to reap the minimal result some might hope for. Or, there is a hyperfocus element of ADHD where sufferers can focus on some things intently almost to unpurposefully shutting everything else, any other mental stimulus, out around them... in this case, to reap the minimal result. But this does not translate across anything you want it to. It can't be turned on and off at will.

Plus I'd imagine that clinical years utilize a whole additional skill sets that don't necessarily directly translate to those used the first two years.

Treating the ADHD with a coupled strong attempt at self-awareness, and a strong attempt to work with others on any deficits that others may have reported, may help tremendously. Some with ADHD are not remotely aware of how they come off to others on an interpersonal level. They are sometimes not in touch with their own feelings or concerns, and even if they were, might have a serious problem relaying it to others. Someone with ADHD may be told exactly what a problem is, but might not actually fully "get it" because their perception of the situation they experienced is so very different from that of the others that are assessing them. So, don't come down on OP too hard, if they are showing that they are trying to work and grow. That's huge!

Part of the problem with ADHD is that people are always, for various reasons or another, telling sufferers that they are not working hard enough in a certain guises... because to most it appears that it can't be any other way (how could this person simply not see what I see?).... but living with an ADHD brain is exhausting.

I know by personal experience that some of the issues I've addressed earlier can get better with meds and self-reflection.

However, I can't promise that OP will get the right people to understand or sympathize with their case.

IMHO medical school is no place for a weak minds or weak bodies - I wonder why is it that we don't see many disabled persons in med.school? For sure it's not due to discrimination, but it's simply because they won't be able to handle the load and treat patients. OP isn't telling the whole story - it is clearly something else going on. I don't believe in that sudden ADD diagnosis out of nowhere. I don't beehive that he had no issues with MS1 and MS2 and now has no issues with Pharmacy school, but he failed clinical skills so badly that got withdrawn. BTW many clinical skills are tested starting from 1st month of MS1 in Clinical Medicine course - if he was to fail - he would have failed long before 3rd year. ADD more likely was brought in to picture by OP to help him win the reinstatement case. Which BTW is a absolutely not guaranteed opposite of what OP thinks. We've seen much harsher cases here on SDN and students couldn't get rats ass from their med.school. So to sum up - we have numerous red.flags that basically scream lot of things are wrong here and tho your husband is a very nice person I'm sure, it has nothing to do with poor ADD student that no one can pity and relate to. I wish him luck and he has to choose if he solved his real issues whatever he is not telling us. There is no middle option here - it's either all in back to medicine or finish pharmacy and learn to be happy with it.

 

[hallowmann]

IMHO medical school is no place for a weak minds or weak bodies - I wonder why is it that we don't see many disabled persons in med.school? For sure it's not due to discrimination, but it's simply because they won't be able to handle the load and treat patients...

What? What exactly gives you that impression?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26796093
http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2015/02/pfor2-1502.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/u...cal-school-draws-focus-of-advocates.html?_r=0 and then the result: https://nad.org/news/2013/9/deaf-medical-student-wins-ada-case-against-creighton
http://nypost.com/2016/05/14/suny-wouldnt-let-me-finish-med-school-after-i-became-paralyzed/ - more than halfway through her residency and despite her ability to perform surgeries with a stand, SUNY claimed their ORs couldn't accommodate it, but worse yet they provided no help in transferring her to another residency program that had such accommodations.

Basically, yeah discrimination for individuals with disabilities exist, even in medicine. You're kind of exhibiting it already, as a med student. There are plenty of medical fields that do not require certain physical capacities, and to be honest, its ridiculous to argue that such people simply can't "handle the load and treat patients" when physicians with disabilities all over the country are doing just that.

EDIT: Yeah I know this is reddit, but there are plenty of posts about people who know individuals in the medical field (some accidents before training, some after). One of the more striking things is that with pretty much all of the cases, the posters cite that the patients love the docs because of their ability to relate to their situation. Its a perk to having a diverse physician population.
https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/36y6gb/can_a_paraplegic_realistically_become_a_doctor_is/

 

[DrMikeP]

I see two main issues. The first is why do you want to go back? Has something truly changed for you to make you think you could now do better? Have you truly fixed what got you booted? The next issue is do you have any shot at getting back in?

The first is imo the biggest issue because those skills are not easily taught. Something to consider is anxiety and depression sometimes gets misdiagnosed as add. If you somehow have fixed things and feel you now would be an exceptional physician then the only thing you have to lose is the time and effort in trying. I wouldn't give up pharm yet though.

I doubt you have a shot but if you in your heart think you now have what it takes I say write a letter and see what the school says. They may say here is the appeals process go for it or tell you here is the process but strongly recommend you don't or just say No. You imo have no shot at getting in elsewhere. Finally, sometimes people need to know for sure a door is closed to be able to move on, if you need that then go for it, but don't imo risk your pharm doing it.

Good luck

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[073116]

What? What exactly gives you that impression?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26796093
http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2015/02/pfor2-1502.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/u...cal-school-draws-focus-of-advocates.html?_r=0 and then the result: https://nad.org/news/2013/9/deaf-medical-student-wins-ada-case-against-creighton
http://nypost.com/2016/05/14/suny-wouldnt-let-me-finish-med-school-after-i-became-paralyzed/ - more than halfway through her residency and despite her ability to perform surgeries with a stand, SUNY claimed their ORs couldn't accommodate it, but worse yet they provided no help in transferring her to another residency program that had such accommodations.

Basically, yeah discrimination for individuals with disabilities exist, even in medicine. You're kind of exhibiting it already, as a med student. There are plenty of medical fields that do not require certain physical capacities, and to be honest, its ridiculous to argue that such people simply can't "handle the load and treat patients" when physicians with disabilities all over the country are doing just that.

EDIT: Yeah I know this is reddit, but there are plenty of posts about people who know individuals in the medical field (some accidents before training, some after). One of the more striking things is that with pretty much all of the cases, the posters cite that the patients love the docs because of their ability to relate to their situation. Its a perk to having a diverse physician population.
https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/36y6gb/can_a_paraplegic_realistically_become_a_doctor_is/

I remember signing an agreement with my school where it clearly stated that I have to be able to be physically and mentally fit in order for me to proceed further during application process. All those links you posted show that there are exceptions to rules. To some degree deaf students can study and finish med.school, I never said it's impossible, but imagine what it will be like for them to treat patients? They will need to have interpreter everytime beside them, who will provide that, our government uncle Sam? Yes, they probably can read lips, but will they read lips in ER or OR? Again, these are cream of the milk cases, but imagine a blind person or a paraplegic - should they be accepted too? According to your links they should be. However, I'm going to be direct here (sorry nothing personal) - this is a focking stupidest idea I've heard. Yes, you will pat on their ego, but make miserable 100x fold more peopel around them - starting from faculty and classmates and ending up with residency and attendings and even patients. Sometimes this politically correctness is over the top. Why not allow then disabled persons to be a pilots? Would you send your family to that nice trip to Bahamas in that plane? I mean this silliness has a point where it begins to harm more than help people in the long run.

 

[hallowmann]

I remember signing an agreement with my school where it clearly stated that I have to be able to be physically and mentally fit in order for me to proceed further during application process. All those links you posted show that there are exceptions to rules. To some degree deaf students can study and finish med.school, I never said it's impossible, but imagine what it will be like for them to treat patients? They will need to have interpreter everytime beside them, who will provide that, our government uncle Sam? Yes, they probably can read lips, but will they read lips in ER or OR? Again, these are cream of the milk cases, but imagine a blind person or a paraplegic - should they be accepted too? According to your links they should be. However, I'm going to be direct here (sorry nothing personal) - this is a focking stupidest idea I've heard. Yes, you will pat on their ego, but make miserable 100x fold more peopel around them - starting from faculty and classmates and ending up with residency and attendings and even patients. Sometimes this politically correctness is over the top. Why not allow then disabled persons to be a pilots? Would you send your family to that nice trip to Bahamas in that plane? I mean this silliness has a point where it begins to harm more than help people in the long run.

Yeah, you know where I said you're exhibiting discrimination towards the disabled, you're doing that again. Yes, schools do have vague technical and physical requirements, that doesn't mean people with certain disabilities aren't capable of fulfilling them. No, I don't expect "Uncle Sam" to provide everything for disabled physicians. Its usually the physicians themselves that pay or provide it (like the student from CUSOM did or like paraplegic surgeons that have wheelchairs that come to a full upright stand).

As far as having an interpreter, welcome to the experience that any non-native English speaker has in healthcare. Has it ever occurred to you that a deaf caregiver might be able to give a level of care to the deaf population that far exceeds your or my level of care? Perhaps their unique ability to relate, or even their ability to communicate in the same way as the patient, can *gasp* actually make them better at their jobs.

There are surgeons that are paraplegic. They do fine. They don't require a ton of accommodations, no more so than a short, tall, big, small, whatever surgeon does. We accommodate all kinds of people, not just for disabilities. Guess what, it doesn't harm the patients.

You keep making all of these assumptions based on your gut or based on whether YOU want care from such individuals. The truth is, many patients want care from good doctors. Sometimes those doctors have disabilities. And if patients don't want care from a disabled physician, its not like they're getting forced to have that care. Trust me, when you step into your first rotations you'll see what patients really care about.

If I were you, I'd get out more, at least before you finish med school. There is a whole wide world out there with plenty examples of why you're wrong. But its OK, keep making blind statements about how harmful physicians with disabilities are and how they don't fit your laughably narrow view of what a doctor is or should be.

 

[073116]

Yeah, you know where I said you're exhibiting discrimination towards the disabled, you're doing that again. Yes, schools do have vague technical and physical requirements, that doesn't mean people with certain disabilities aren't capable of fulfilling them. No, I don't expect "Uncle Sam" to provide everything for disabled physicians. Its usually the physicians themselves that pay or provide it (like the student from CUSOM did or like paraplegic surgeons that have wheelchairs that come to a full upright stand).

As far as having an interpreter, welcome to the experience that any non-native English speaker has in healthcare. Has it ever occurred to you that a deaf caregiver might be able to give a level of care to the deaf population that far exceeds your or my level of care? Perhaps their unique ability to relate, or even their ability to communicate in the same way as the patient, can *gasp* actually make them better at their jobs.

There are surgeons that are paraplegic. They do fine. They don't require a ton of accommodations, no more so than a short, tall, big, small, whatever surgeon does. We accommodate all kinds of people, not just for disabilities. Guess what, it doesn't harm the patients.

You keep making all of these assumptions based on your gut or based on whether YOU want care from such individuals. The truth is, many patients want care from good doctors. Sometimes those doctors have disabilities. And if patients don't want care from a disabled physician, its not like they're getting forced to have that care. Trust me, when you step into your first rotations you'll see what patients really care about.

If I were you, I'd get out more, at least before you finish med school. There is a whole wide world out there with plenty examples of why you're wrong. But its OK, keep making blind statements about how harmful physicians with disabilities are and how they don't fit your laughably narrow view of what a doctor is or should be.

Hey man, I didn't mean to get touchy. Chill out. I have similar views that patients actually like doctors who can relate and who in general have nice personality, have compassion and knowledge - I may change my views when I'll get to actual residency lol. Just couple of points, I'm not against disabled doctors. However, I'm a realistic person and I think you know it somewhere deep too that your argument about: "that a deaf caregiver might be able to give a level of care to the deaf population that far exceeds your or my level of care? Perhaps their unique ability to relate, or even their ability to communicate in the same way as the patient, can *gasp* actually make them better at their jobs..." contributes to what - maybe 0.1% of all patients and cases? Even if it was 10 times more - it basically makes no statistical difference. What about 99.99% of other patients that doc has to see - have you thought about their feelings and how happy would they be seeing disabled doc? Hey, I may be wrong, and maybe I'll see 5 deaf patients out of 10 for example. I'm just a MS1 what do I know? Just my opinion man
P.S. I'm a non-native English speaker too, so I'm almost half disabled basically (at least in my English language skills), that kinda makes me a bit more legit making such horrible statements toward disabled docs no?

 

[hallowmann]

Hey man, I didn't mean to get touchy. Chill out. I have similar views that patients actually like doctors who can relate and who in general have nice personality, have compassion and knowledge - I may change my views when I'll get to actual residency lol. Just couple of points, I'm not against disabled doctors. However, I'm a realistic person and I think you know it somewhere deep too that your argument about: "that a deaf caregiver might be able to give a level of care to the deaf population that far exceeds your or my level of care? Perhaps their unique ability to relate, or even their ability to communicate in the same way as the patient, can *gasp* actually make them better at their jobs..." contributes to what - maybe 0.1% of all patients and cases? Even if it was 10 times more - it basically makes no statistical difference. Hey, I may be wrong, and maybe I'll see 5 deaf patients out of 10 for example. I'm just a MS1 what do I know? Just my opinion man

Do you know how many doctors there are in this country? About 850,000. Even if your estimate was accurate (I don't know that it is), 0.1% would constitute a demand of 850 deaf physicians to accommodate those patients. When you start dealing with statistics on the order of millions, they actually do mean something, even if they don't look like a difference. If you basically say, "welp, you're deaf, can't be a doctor", you're making the physician population more homogeneous for no real reason, and in turn cutting off a patient's opportunity to receive better care, even if its only 1 patient out of 1000 (which is actually a pretty big number across the 320 million people in this country). What's the point?

There's also a question of whether its actually a benefit to us as a society to make blanket statements about a whole population of people that could potentially include amazing medical minds. It eliminates a population that might actually produce some very effective doctors. We would never know if we just never let the ones who want to try.

My point is, you're making this assessment, but its from the perspective of someone who has already made a decision of what a doctor can or can't do. There's no point in it. There is a huge range of what doctors can and can't do, and there's a huge range of doctors with deficiency and skill in one or more areas. You don't really know what people are capable of, don't be so quick to assume the limit.

Some examples of it working out fine:
http://www.thedoctorstv.com/videos/wheelchair-bound-surgeon - I hate the Doctors, but its a good example since injury was before med school
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/paralyzed-surgeon-learns-operate-article-1.1531812 - another surgeon, injury after training, he's a DO by the way!

EDIT: I love this article right here. One quote in it kind of caught me "Wainapel’s ophthalmologist encouraged him to attend medical school—a very enlightened attitude, says Wainapel, 67, who graduated from Boston University School of Medicine in 1970: 'He was thinking about what I could do instead of what I couldn’t do.' "
http://archive.protomag.com/assets/doctors-with-disabilities-tough-job-made-tougher?page=1

 

[073116]

Do you know how many doctors there are in this country? About 850,000. Even if your estimate was accurate (I don't know that it is), 0.1% would constitute a demand of 850 deaf physicians to accommodate those patients. When you start dealing with statistics on the order of millions, they actually do mean something, even if they don't look like a difference. If you basically say, "welp, you're deaf, can't be a doctor", you're making the physician population more homogeneous for no real reason, and in turn cutting off a patient's opportunity to receive better care, even if its only 1 patient out of 1000 (which is actually a pretty big number across the 320 million people in this country). What's the point?

There's also a question of whether its actually a benefit to us as a society to make blanket statements about a whole population of people that could potentially include amazing medical minds. It eliminates a population that might actually produce some very effective doctors. We would never know if we just never let the ones who want to try.

My point is, you're making this assessment, but its from the perspective of someone who has already made a decision of what a doctor can or can't do. There's no point in it. There is a huge range of what doctors can and can't do, and there's a huge range of doctors with deficiency and skill in one or more areas. You don't really know what people are capable of, don't be so quick to assume the limit.

Some examples of it working out fine:
http://www.thedoctorstv.com/videos/wheelchair-bound-surgeon - I hate the Doctors, but its a good example since injury was before med school
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/paralyzed-surgeon-learns-operate-article-1.1531812 - another surgeon, injury after training, he's a DO by the way!

EDIT: I love this article right here. One quote in it kind of caught me "Wainapel’s ophthalmologist encouraged him to attend medical school—a very enlightened attitude, says Wainapel, 67, who graduated from Boston University School of Medicine in 1970: 'He was thinking about what I could do instead of what I couldn’t do.' "
http://archive.protomag.com/assets/doctors-with-disabilities-tough-job-made-tougher?page=1

Ok, ok, your ability to convince and my ability to comply and agree (and limited time due to upcoming anatomy exam) tipped the scales and you win. You should have become a lawyer man

 

[hallowmann]

Ok, ok, your ability to convince and my ability to comply and agree (and limited time due to upcoming anatomy exam) tipped the scales and you win. You should have become a lawyer man

Don't just give up like that man . You don't have to agree with me, I just want you to think more about it. You'll see crazy stuff in med school. Some of it will be inspiring and some of it will be terrifying, if you stay open to possibilities or views you didn't necessarily consider before, you'll be surprised what's actually possible.

Good luck on the Anatomy exam! You'll be so glad when that course is over.

 

[InvoluntarySoul]

You really have to try to fail rotations, two fails back to back sounds like a professionalism problem. Dishonestly is the biggest offender. I know my school has zero tolerance to non-professionalism.

 

[Gastrapathy]

OP, there's a major lack of insight here. An appeal is an uphill climb and likely isn't available anymore. If you want back into medicine, I would recommend asking for a meeting with the med school dean. Go with a letter from your shrink saying that you are now fit to proceed with your training. Ask how to proceed. Go hat in hand and own your mistakes. It's really hard to fail a rotation, let alone two in a row.

If they let you back, try to take a LOA from pharmacy school so you can get back there if you fail again. You will be under a microscope and your chances of not graduating are high.

Overall, I would recommend being a pharmacist.

 

[Goro]

I'd like to follow up my learned colleague's word with something I forgot when I made my post above. It's takes talent to fail a rotation. it takes even more to fail two, and then to get dismissed. Med schools bend over backwards to keep their students and get them to graduation. To dismiss a student strongly implies some major deficits or transactions that OP is not mentioning.

We've see this show before, folks. Look at some of the other "help...dismissed!" posts.

OP, there's a major lack of insight here. An appeal is an uphill climb and likely isn't available anymore. If you want back into medicine, I would recommend asking for a meeting with the med school dean. Go with a letter from your shrink saying that you are now fit to proceed with your training. Ask how to proceed. Go hat in hand and own your mistakes. It's really hard to fail a rotation, let alone two in a row.

If they let you back, try to take a LOA from pharmacy school so you can get back there if you fail again. You will be under a microscope and your chances of not graduating are high.

Overall, I would recommend being a pharmacist.

 

[tennischamp822]

...

 

[Goro]

Patients come first. Not everybody who tries gets to have a trophy. And and people do deserve sanction for some of the things they do.

There are a ton of schools where failing 2 classes in a year = dismissal at both MD/DO schools.

Most admins only care about one thing: match rates.

I highly doubt the admins at OP's school cared about what was going on with the OP. Once they saw the OP wasn't doing well = easy dismissal as per school policies to maintain the match rate.

 

[premedicalstudent]

Yeah, you know where I said you're exhibiting discrimination towards the disabled, you're doing that again. Yes, schools do have vague technical and physical requirements, that doesn't mean people with certain disabilities aren't capable of fulfilling them. No, I don't expect "Uncle Sam" to provide everything for disabled physicians. Its usually the physicians themselves that pay or provide it (like the student from CUSOM did or like paraplegic surgeons that have wheelchairs that come to a full upright stand).

As far as having an interpreter, welcome to the experience that any non-native English speaker has in healthcare. Has it ever occurred to you that a deaf caregiver might be able to give a level of care to the deaf population that far exceeds your or my level of care? Perhaps their unique ability to relate, or even their ability to communicate in the same way as the patient, can *gasp* actually make them better at their jobs.

There are surgeons that are paraplegic. They do fine. They don't require a ton of accommodations, no more so than a short, tall, big, small, whatever surgeon does. We accommodate all kinds of people, not just for disabilities. Guess what, it doesn't harm the patients.

You keep making all of these assumptions based on your gut or based on whether YOU want care from such individuals. The truth is, many patients want care from good doctors. Sometimes those doctors have disabilities. And if patients don't want care from a disabled physician, its not like they're getting forced to have that care. Trust me, when you step into your first rotations you'll see what patients really care about.

If I were you, I'd get out more, at least before you finish med school. There is a whole wide world out there with plenty examples of why you're wrong. But its OK, keep making blind statements about how harmful physicians with disabilities are and how they don't fit your laughably narrow view of what a doctor is or should be.

+1000
This site (and I imagine the medical community) needs more people like you! REAL advocates and fair-minded medical students / doctors.

 

[premedicalstudent]

Do you know how many doctors there are in this country? About 850,000. Even if your estimate was accurate (I don't know that it is), 0.1% would constitute a demand of 850 deaf physicians to accommodate those patients. When you start dealing with statistics on the order of millions, they actually do mean something, even if they don't look like a difference. If you basically say, "welp, you're deaf, can't be a doctor", you're making the physician population more homogeneous for no real reason, and in turn cutting off a patient's opportunity to receive better care, even if its only 1 patient out of 1000 (which is actually a pretty big number across the 320 million people in this country). What's the point?

There's also a question of whether its actually a benefit to us as a society to make blanket statements about a whole population of people that could potentially include amazing medical minds. It eliminates a population that might actually produce some very effective doctors. We would never know if we just never let the ones who want to try.

My point is, you're making this assessment, but its from the perspective of someone who has already made a decision of what a doctor can or can't do. There's no point in it. There is a huge range of what doctors can and can't do, and there's a huge range of doctors with deficiency and skill in one or more areas. You don't really know what people are capable of, don't be so quick to assume the limit.

Some examples of it working out fine:
http://www.thedoctorstv.com/videos/wheelchair-bound-surgeon - I hate the Doctors, but its a good example since injury was before med school
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/paralyzed-surgeon-learns-operate-article-1.1531812 - another surgeon, injury after training, he's a DO by the way!

EDIT: I love this article right here. One quote in it kind of caught me "Wainapel’s ophthalmologist encouraged him to attend medical school—a very enlightened attitude, says Wainapel, 67, who graduated from Boston University School of Medicine in 1970: 'He was thinking about what I could do instead of what I couldn’t do.' "
http://archive.protomag.com/assets/doctors-with-disabilities-tough-job-made-tougher?page=1

+1000
I don't know why your posts don't have more likes.

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[Goro]

I'm sorry you took that personally.

Threatened by mid levels, are we?

The woman fulfilled the role for my wife and I and did it quite well. Thus to us, she WAS our doctor.

Much better than the MD who replaced her. We dumped her pretty quick.

Lol. The "dumbest" medical student has more intelligence and capabilities than 99% of NPs.

But, who am I kidding, I'm debating someone who referred to their NP as a physician. Lol

 

[premedicalstudent]

Lol. The "dumbest" medical student has more intelligence and capabilities than 99% of NPs.

But, who am I kidding, I'm debating someone who referred to their NP as a physician. Lol

What is NP?

 

[Septo Shock]

I know that having clinical skills is a part of pharmacy school, although admittedly not as extensive as medical school. I feel like pharmacy school is relevant enough (as opposed to, say I did something completely irrelevant like work in business or something)

Also, I needed presence of new information to win an appeal, and having a new diagnosis of add definitely warrants that

You should seriously consider sticking with Pharmacy school and getting a career out of that. My wife is a Pharmacist and did the 3 yr program. She makes around $140K, works 4 days a week (10hr days), has weekends off (maybe unique to her current job), has time to work out, low liability/stress, little CMEs to do, while I take call and work 50-80hrs per week x 5 yrs now. She has a nice pension plan x 6 yrs of working and some of her coworkers pick up extra shifts and make even more. She has been finished with school since my MS4 yr and has been supporting my butt from MS4 to my current PGY5 yr. She's the smart one in the relationship!

 

[darknecrosforte]

+1000
This site (and I imagine the medical community) needs more people like you! REAL advocates and fair-minded medical students / doctors.

+1000
I don't know why your posts don't have more likes.

What is NP?

Classic

 

[DrMikeP]

Med school and life isn't about fairness! It isn't fair when a physician screws up and a patient dies but it happens, it isn't fair when someone works really hard but fails out of med school but it happens, it really isn't fair that we all weren't born wealthy. It isn't fair that someone with a below avg IQ can't be a physician and yes it even means that person is discriminated against due to something beyond their control, but certain capabilities are just required and having another person there telling them what to do is just not reasonable.

Life isn't fair, so get over this social idea of fairness is required for a career in medicine. If someone has a disability and CAN perform on par (with reasonable accommodation) then absolutely they should, if they meet the same standards as other premeds, be given a shot. But in reality not every disability can be reasonably overcome, sorry life isn't fair.

Patients deserve a doctor that can provide them with an appropriate level of care and making someone a physician just to make people feel good about themselves is not a strategy for accomplishing that.

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