Women in Military Medicine

[CG2010]

Hi,

I'm currently battling over whether I want to take the HPSP with the army. I am an MS2 and my recruiter has told me that I would have to do the OBC after residency. I have already been selected for the HPSP, but have not commissioned yet.

I would only be getting a 3 year scholarship from the army, but as I've been reading in other posts, contracts with the army are 8 years? Does that time include time served in internship/residency/fellowship??

When I had first thought about this, i thought that I could do any residency, but I've now learned that I need to do the army match first. I want to do GI, so would my internal medicine residency and my GI fellowship add to time owed??

I also want to get married and have children, but I can't find anywhere information about maternity leave, how it affects your time served and deployment status.


If there are any female medical officers who have done the HPSP out there, please reply to me ASAP. My commissioning is to be soon.. I'm very worried about this decision as my boyfriend is worried about how this will change our future and our family.

Thanks so much!

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[IgD]

The matching process for internship and residency are separate. There is a decent chance you would be deployed as a GMO after graduating internship. During residency you would have to match again for fellowship. There is a good chance that you would need to complete a "utilization tour" before given a serious look for a fellowship.

As far as children go if you are a single parent or have children with special needs you are expected to have a family care plan. This basically puts in writing who will watch your children while you are deployed. Your spouse would be expected to watch your children in the event of your deployment. If you are a dual military family you also have to have a family care plan.

Hope that helps.

 

[NavyFP]

All good questions to be asking prior to signing. Should you choose to accept the scholarship you would be required to participate in the Army match. If your ultimate goal is GI, you would apply for an IM residency. In the Army these days the vast majority will go straight through training. Residency training does incur an obligation, but this can be served at the same time as your HPSP obligation (concurrent payback). Depending on the number of people applying, some will go directly into fellowship. I would not plan on this, but if it happens, great. Plan to do a 3 year utilization tour as an internist and then apply for fellowship (or get out as your obligation will be complete.) The advantage of doing felloship training in the service is that you are paid as the attending you were. (as an internist this will likely be over $100K per year) Fellowship pay in the service is much better than the civilian community. You would incur an additional obligation of 3 years for a GI fellowship that would be consecutive with all other obligations. So if you go straight from residency to fellowship you would owe an additional 3 year for a total of 6. The 8 years is the total obligation to the service. That clock starts on the day you go on active duty and you are eligible to resign your commission 8 years later. (barring other obligations) This time does not have to be spent on active duty and many complete this time in the IRR (Individual Ready Reserve). Being in the IRR means your name is on the books but you do not do anything with the Army. While in the IRR you are subject to recall to active service and the Army has called members off this list.

As far as the family concerns: Pregnant women are not deployed and you are given at least 6 months post delivery before you can be deployed. (the Navy just changed this to a year.) Maternity leave is 6 weeks and it does not count against your regular leave. There is no impact on obligation/payback with pregnancy/maternity leave.

 

[Galo]

Hi,

I'm currently battling over whether I want to take the HPSP with the army. I am an MS2 and my recruiter has told me that I would have to do the OBC after residency. I have already been selected for the HPSP, but have not commissioned yet.

I would only be getting a 3 year scholarship from the army, but as I've been reading in other posts, contracts with the army are 8 years? Does that time include time served in internship/residency/fellowship??

When I had first thought about this, i thought that I could do any residency, but I've now learned that I need to do the army match first. I want to do GI, so would my internal medicine residency and my GI fellowship add to time owed??

I also want to get married and have children, but I can't find anywhere information about maternity leave, how it affects your time served and deployment status.


If there are any female medical officers who have done the HPSP out there, please reply to me ASAP. My commissioning is to be soon.. I'm very worried about this decision as my boyfriend is worried about how this will change our future and our family.

Thanks so much!

It seems you have a definite plan for your medical career. Joining the military can only change that. Although as others have pointed out, its possible you will get picked for IM right away, its also possible you will not. Its also possible you will not get picked for fellowship training right afterward. You will be given anthrax vaccine if deployed, and there is alot of question of its health effects, especially if you are planning to get pregnant.

A good question is why do you want to go into the Army. If its for money, you will make much more on the outside as a GI specialist than you would in the army. If its another reason, you should really think about it, and continue reading these forums, as well as contacting current AD docs, especially women, to see what their experience has been.

My always biased opinion is you give up too many freedoms for too little in return, especially at the beginning of a career that is not yet determined. You will always have the option to join once you are fellowship trained, but under a little more control than you would have now.

Good luck

 

[IgD]

I think there is stigma about pregnancy in the military that is worse than the civilian world. In the civilian world co-workers get frustrated because they have to cover for you while you are on maternity leave. In the military, people sometimes erroneously assume that you are trying to get pregnant to get out of a deployment.

It makes sense to plan your family around your career but could be taken to extremes in either direction. If you focus 100% on your family you sacrifice your career. If you focus 100% on your career you sacrifice your family. Just like anyone the service member has to try to balance these needs.

 

[Mirror Form]

In the military, people sometimes erroneously assume that you are trying to get pregnant to get out of a deployment.

I hate to sound evil, but it certainly isn't always an erroneous assumption.

 

[Mirror Form]

I also want to get married and have children, but I can't find anywhere information about maternity leave, how it affects your time served and deployment status.

It's good you're thinking about this now. Are you engaged yet? If not, you might want to reconsider military medicine. If you're in the civilian world, you can choose to do your internship/residency/practice in locations where there are lots of other single people, like NYC, DC, LA, etc.

Whereas, if the army sends you to el paso or one of their many other horrendous locations, you'll have to live a life of celibacy until your commitment is up, which will be in your mid 30's at best. Whereas, if you do a GI fellowship, that will be late 30's. I had no idea how horrible certain areas are in regard to meeting significant others until the army sent me to the middle of nowhere in the deep south for residency. Literally every educated female was either married at agoe 18 or moved far away from that location immediately after high school. Thank god that was only for one year, but it could have been much longer.

 

[CG2010]

Maternity leave is 6 weeks and it does not count against your regular leave. There is no impact on obligation/payback with pregnancy/maternity leave.

Is that true with the Army??

My boyfriend and I have decided that when we are married (as soon as I graduate) that we plan on having a large family. It has always been one of our dreams to raise a BIG family (which is going to be hard enough as a female physician)

So if I'm in and I get pregnant the time i take on maternity leave is not added to the time owed?

 

[IgD]

What are you thinking when you say maternity leave? I think the military will give you 40 days and that's it. If you have a baby during internship or residency you would get the time off but then have to extend your training on the back end.

Has anyone seen a service member be deployed soon after having a baby? I think it is possible. Even if you were a single mom you'd have to have a family care plan in place.

 

[colbgw02]

Hi,

I'm currently battling over whether I want to take the HPSP with the army. I am an MS2 and my recruiter has told me that I would have to do the OBC after residency. I have already been selected for the HPSP, but have not commissioned yet.

I would only be getting a 3 year scholarship from the army, but as I've been reading in other posts, contracts with the army are 8 years? Does that time include time served in internship/residency/fellowship??

When I had first thought about this, i thought that I could do any residency, but I've now learned that I need to do the army match first. I want to do GI, so would my internal medicine residency and my GI fellowship add to time owed??

I also want to get married and have children, but I can't find anywhere information about maternity leave, how it affects your time served and deployment status.


If there are any female medical officers who have done the HPSP out there, please reply to me ASAP. My commissioning is to be soon.. I'm very worried about this decision as my boyfriend is worried about how this will change our future and our family.

Thanks so much!

1) First of all, your recruiter is wrong when he/she tells you that you have to do OBC after residency. If you do a residency with the Army, then there is no reason that you should have to go to OBC.

The matching process for internship and residency are separate. There is a decent chance you would be deployed as a GMO after graduating internship.

2) Again, the above is simply not true. For all Army specialties except general surgery, continuous contracts are now in place. If selected for internal medicine, you would complete your residency in its entirety immediately after graduating from medical school. Internal medicine is a relatively easy specialty to match into, so - again - saying that there is a decent chance you would do a GMO is not true. There is a chance, yes, but assuming you are a halfway competitive applicant, then chances are you would not have to do a GMO if vying for IM.

3) I have found the Army to be strangely compliant about things like maternity leave. I'm basing this largely on the fact that I personally know of several physicians who took paternity leave for 6 weeks during internship. If you are pregnant, then you are non-deployable. This is considered a point of contention, since some women use this as a way of getting out of going to the sandbox.

 

[IgD]

2) Again, the above is simply not true. For all Army specialties except general surgery, continuous contracts are now in place. If selected for internal medicine, you would complete your residency in its entirety immediately after graduating from medical school. Internal medicine is a relatively easy specialty to match into, so - again - saying that there is a decent chance you would do a GMO is not true. There is a chance, yes, but assuming you are a halfway competitive applicant, then chances are you would not have to do a GMO if vying for IM.

Could you paste a link to the doctrine stating otherwise? The bottom line is that GMO is still in the doctrine. Maybe this year things look good but how about next year? How about 4 or 5 years from now?

 

[colbgw02]

Doctrine? No, I don't have a link and I'm not going to spend time looking for one. Sorry, but if that's the only way you'll be convinced, then I can't help you.

The fact is, there is only one Army specialty that requires their interns to reapply, and that is general surgery. Everyone else automatically proceeds to PGY-2.

I don't mean to say that the Army still doesn't have GMOs. Every year there are a handful of medical students who apply to and don't match into competitive specialties. The vast majority of those students will match into transitional internship, and when those transitional interns reapply, only a handful will get picked up. The balance will do GMO tours.

Nonetheless, nowadays the vast majority of Army applicants don't do GMOs. This is even more true of internal medicine, since it is not one of the more competitive specialties.

Without knowing anything more about the OP, there is probably about a 85-90% chance the she will match into Army IM without ever having to worry about doing a GMO tour.

 

[Perrotfish]

It's good you're thinking about this now. Are you engaged yet? If not, you might want to reconsider military medicine. If you're in the civilian world, you can choose to do your internship/residency/practice in locations where there are lots of other single people, like NYC, DC, LA, etc.

Whereas, if the army sends you to el paso or one of their many other horrendous locations, you'll have to live a life of celibacy until your commitment is up, which will be in your mid 30's at best. Whereas, if you do a GI fellowship, that will be late 30's. I had no idea how horrible certain areas are in regard to meeting significant others until the army sent me to the middle of nowhere in the deep south for residency. Literally every educated female was either married at agoe 18 or moved far away from that location immediately after high school. Thank god that was only for one year, but it could have been much longer.

Seriously? You want the OP to make this serious a life decision based on the probability of getting a date near an Army base?

 

[alpha62]

We're engaged in a 3 front war right now.

We don't have the luxury of maintaining this social experiment any longer. The very thought this whole thread is even being entertained is proof enough we're doomed.

Our enemies are biding their time.

 

[CG2010]

We're engaged in a 3 front war right now.

We don't have the luxury of maintaining this social experiment any longer. The very thought this whole thread is even being entertained is proof enough we're doomed.

Our enemies are biding their time.

I'm sorry, does this have any relevance to the HPSP? I have the utmost respect for the men and women who serve in the military. I come from a family of devoted service men and women. I was just questioning if the HPSP is worth taking right now, or if it may be better to join after I've completed all of my training.

Thanks to all who have contributed. I have to continue to think about this and talk it over with my family and my boyfriend.

If there are any women who are currently in the HPSP, please post...

 

[alpha62]

I'm sorry, does this have any relevance to the HPSP? I have the utmost respect for the men and women who serve in the military. I come from a family of devoted service men and women. I was just questioning if the HPSP is worth taking right now, or if it may be better to join after I've completed all of my training.

Thanks to all who have contributed. I have to continue to think about this and talk it over with my family and my boyfriend.

If there are any women who are currently in the HPSP, please post...

I was in both the IRR, Regular Reserves, and regular army for over 20 years. If your plan is to be on a regular bi-annual gestational cycle during the extent of your ADSO, you're screwing a lot of other people that will pull your deployments, NTC, JRTC , ect duty for you.

You're right, why in the hell would a three front war have anything to do with a discussion of the military.

Maybe these other posts will dance around that, but they'll be the first one to cry foul when the PROFIS bomb drops in their shop and they take the hit because you're willfully nondeployable.

Yeah, I'm one of the guys you'll run into along the way.

 

[mastamark]

The matching process for internship and residency are separate. There is a decent chance you would be deployed as a GMO after graduating internship. During residency you would have to match again for fellowship. There is a good chance that you would need to complete a "utilization tour" before given a serious look for a fellowship.

As far as children go if you are a single parent or have children with special needs you are expected to have a family care plan. This basically puts in writing who will watch your children while you are deployed. Your spouse would be expected to watch your children in the event of your deployment. If you are a dual military family you also have to have a family care plan.

Hope that helps.

I thought that the ARMY didn't do the GMO thing. At least that is what the recruiter told me. Please enlighten me, cuz this could be a deal breaker for me. I am about 2 weeks from going down to the meps station for my physical.

I am getting some mixed information here and I don't like it. I don't want there to be any chance that I have to do GMO.

 

[narcusprince]

bump

 

[Perrotfish]

I thought that the ARMY didn't do the GMO thing. At least that is what the recruiter told me. Please enlighten me, cuz this could be a deal breaker for me. I am about 2 weeks from going down to the meps station for my physical.

If I've got my information right: they do very, very few, and it's not considered a requirement for a competitive residency. This is in contrast to the Navy, where at least historically a GMO was absolutely necessary for a competitive residency and more than half of Navy doctors have to do a GMO before residency (this is supposedly being phased out). If you insist only applying a competitive specialty that you're not actually qualified for, though, the Army can still make you do a GMO for lack of a better place to put you.

Did I get it right?

EDIT: Oh, to the OP, have you read 'Rule Number two"? It's by a female Navy Psychiatrist, it deals a lot with balancing family with a wartime deployment as a mother. It's a pretty easy read you might find interesting.

 

[Galo]

I thought that the ARMY didn't do the GMO thing. At least that is what the recruiter told me. Please enlighten me, cuz this could be a deal breaker for me. I am about 2 weeks from going down to the meps station for my physical.

I am getting some mixed information here and I don't like it. I don't want there to be any chance that I have to do GMO.

I'm sure I will be rapidly corrected, if I am wrong, but lets say you want to do X specialty. Well, you and 30 others apply. The army has spots for 20 people. If you are not one of the 20 chosen, you will have to do GMO before you apply again. So, the GMO is still a possibility.

 

[Mirror Form]

Seriously? You want the OP to make this serious a life decision based on the probability of getting a date near an Army base?

Yes, location is extremely important to single people who would like to evetually get married.

Haven't you ever looked around the hospital and seen how miserable the single female attendings are? I felt sorry for the women when I was in the middle of nowhere b/c by the time they got out of that hellhole, it would be getting kind of late to start a family. Guys don't have that biological clock. It was also kind of sad to see some people who had "settled" for losers (or just poor matches) have marital issues later. That's what happens when the pickings are slim though.

 

[Mirror Form]

I'm sure I will be rapidly corrected, if I am wrong, but lets say you want to do X specialty. Well, you and 30 others apply. The army has spots for 20 people. If you are not one of the 20 chosen, you will have to do GMO before you apply again. So, the GMO is still a possibility.

Yep, and it always will be.

 

[Perrotfish]

Originally Posted by Galo
I'm sure I will be rapidly corrected, if I am wrong, but lets say you want to do X specialty. Well, you and 30 others apply. The army has spots for 20 people. If you are not one of the 20 chosen, you will have to do GMO before you apply again. So, the GMO is still a possibility.

For the experienced type out there, how does this compare to the civilian world? I mean I know there are civilians out there who want and don't get neurosurgury. What happens to them?

 

[alpha62]

Yes, location is extremely important to single people who would like to evetually get married.

Haven't you ever looked around the hospital and seen how miserable the single female attendings are? I felt sorry for the women when I was in the middle of nowhere b/c by the time they got out of that hellhole, it would be getting kind of late to start a family. Guys don't have that biological clock. It was also kind of sad to see some people who had "settled" for losers (or just poor matches) have marital issues later. That's what happens when the pickings are slim though.

I did El Paso, but I brought my wife with me. She freaken hated it. Even if you get married, the spouse will drive you bananas. Ft. L. Wood, even worse.

It's a no-win situation. That's why there has always been an ample supply of camp followers to keep the troops occupied in their down time. It's a system that worked pretty well the first 200 years, now social engineering is trying to re-invent the wheel.

 

[Galo]

For the experienced type out there, how does this compare to the civilian world? I mean I know there are civilians out there who want and don't get neurosurgury. What happens to them?

You can do a transitional year in surgery, try again the following year, and keep doing that till you realize you are not meant to be a NS, or change your mind to do something else. The important difference is you have CHOICE!!!! You don't automatically then throw down 2 years of your life without training.

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

I thought that the ARMY didn't do the GMO thing. At least that is what the recruiter told me. Please enlighten me, cuz this could be a deal breaker for me. I am about 2 weeks from going down to the meps station for my physical.

I am getting some mixed information here and I don't like it. I don't want there to be any chance that I have to do GMO.

If you match into any specialty (with the exception of General Surgery) you will receive a contract for continuous training (no GMO). The reason GS still has a seperate intern year is due to the high dropout rate for GS. No program wants to select its 5 residents and have 2 quit in two years and screw the program. Thus, GS interns reapply at the end of their intern year for a residency spot.

Every other student signs a continuous conract for their training. The people that go to GMO land are those who do not match to a specialty and end up as a transitional. These tend to be people who overestimate their competetiveness and shoot for ENT or Optho or they tend to be wrong place wrong time people, meaning the least competetive IM applicant when IM has one more applicant than spot. This past year was the first year in the last 5 that Army IM filled all of the available spots.

Thus, a recruiter who tells you that nobody who matches a specialty will do a GMO is correct. What he's not telling you is that nobody is guaranteed to match a spot.

 

[mastamark]

If you match into any specialty (with the exception of General Surgery) you will receive a contract for continuous training (no GMO). The reason GS still has a seperate intern year is due to the high dropout rate for GS. No program wants to select its 5 residents and have 2 quit in two years and screw the program. Thus, GS interns reapply at the end of their intern year for a residency spot.

Every other student signs a continuous conract for their training. The people that go to GMO land are those who do not match to a specialty and end up as a transitional. These tend to be people who overestimate their competetiveness and shoot for ENT or Optho or they tend to be wrong place wrong time people, meaning the least competetive IM applicant when IM has one more applicant than spot. This past year was the first year in the last 5 that Army IM filled all of the available spots.

Thus, a recruiter who tells you that nobody who matches a specialty will do a GMO is correct. What he's not telling you is that nobody is guaranteed to match a spot.

Awesome...very well explained everyone. I guess I got spooked.