PhD/PsyD Working 80 hour weeks in academia - Is this how it's going to be forever?

[fallen625]

Ever since 2nd year of grad school, I have been consistently working 80 hour weeks - no exaggeration (~8 AM - 6 PM, and then 8 PM - 12 PM M-F) and then 5 hours or so Saturday morning and Sunday night!

I love what I do but it's getting emotionally and physically difficulty to keep up this schedule, not to mention it is hard to keep up with other responsibilities well (like family, friends, and health)... although I think the worst part is the constant thinking about work all the time and feeling like there's something that I should be doing (because there's always something on my to do list, no matter how much work I do - it's almost like work generates more work in academia)

Question for those of you that are out of grad school and academia:
1. Does it ever get better?
2. Is this what you need to get a tenure-track job and eventually tenure? Because as much as I love what I do, I think if I have to keep working these hours it will come with a lot of sacrifices that may not be worth it until the end.
3. How many hours did you work in grad school, post-doc, and then tenure-track or AMC jobs?
4. Any tips on managing the "constantly having to be working" feeling - I feel like if this continues it will wreck my personal life (my husband is already sick of this attitude, he's totally fine with long hours but not the stress that they cause) and health

I am curious about these questions because all of this constant work and stress (publish! publish! get lots of hours!) is making me seriously question a research career, despite the fact that there's no work that I love more than the research that I do. I am totally fine with it if I have to put in my dues for a couple of years to set me on the right track, but I do not think this is worth if it will be this way in the long term.

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[Therapist4Chnge]

1. Yes.

2. It depends on the dept/university, your efficiency, and your funding. If you want to be tenure track at an R1 (AMC), then I think 55-65+ hr/wk is typical. There will probably be times that you put in a legit 70hr wk (up against a grant deadline), but hopefully there are also 50hr wks.

3. Grad school: 55-70, Internship: 45-55, Fellowship: 55-70+. I chose a clinical (tenure) track job, so it is 35-55+. My hours are more flexible than most of my friends, so I think 45-55+ is more realistic. I started out 50-60+hr/wk bc I didn't know any different, but then became more efficient and frankly got tired of 60+hr/wk bc I had ~15yr of them (including my prior career).

Research TT I'd put at 55-65+. @Jon Snow would be a good person to ask for Reseach TT at an AMC.

4. You need to find some work life balance, senior mentorship (not just one mentor and hopefully outside of your dept or at least not in your chain of command), and opportunities to collaborate.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

In my case, I've pretty consistently stuck with 50 hours or less/week on internship, postdoc, and now at work.

I haven't been as prolific or productive as some of my peers, but that's the trade-off I was and am willing to make.

I should note that my career is a clinical one, with research and participation in training being done on my own time. I really don't know if sticking to 40- or 50-hour weeks would be realistic or possible while in an academic position and working toward tenure. Probably depends in part on how efficiently those hours are spent.

 

[PsychPhDone]

I'm on postdoc, so I can only speak to what I've experienced so far, but maybe this will be helpful:

The 80 hour workweek became non-sustainable for me during grad school. Getting older, gaining perspective, personal situations all dictated this. I started to work on prioritizing, becoming more realistic with my goals, and getting more efficient. I researched practica and chose wisely based on my other demands. Also...saying "no" helped. and it's easier when you're done with coursework for sure.

I currently work a 40 hour week with an occasional few evening or weekend hours. I churn stuff out much faster because I'm well-rested and happier. I collaborate wisely and make sure we're all clear on expectations for who's doing what and what date we're trying to do it by. I'm not afraid to ask for help. The faculty where I'm at endorse a similar lifestyle. So...consider this an existence proof. I think it's highly dependent on your goals, personality, and environment. . I hope you (and hopefully your mentors) will support and help you achieve the best balance for you.

 

[Pragma]

Depends on where you end up. My academic R2 job is only 40 a week but I've built in a lot of efficiency. 50-60 is not abnormal.

I too did 80 hour weeks in grad school but not since getting done with postdoc. You'll get more efficient. I think there is some data about this, I'll see if I can find and post it.

 

[MCParent]

1. I'm a pretty productive researcher, teach, do some service, and supervise students. I don't do nearly as many hours as you are describing. I have a ton of time to play with my animals, work out, cook, see friends, etc. I have a hard time accepting you're being maximally efficient in that time--it kinda sounds like you're letting yourself get pulled all over. e.g., "writing" but also constantly checking email or whatever. When I write, I turn off my email program so I don't get distracted and feel like I need to respond to emails that come in. They'll live if you don't get back to them in 10 min.

2. Your uni must have the tenure evaluation reqs on file somewhere, readily accessible, so you should be able to know exactly what you will be evaluated on in terms of # of pubs, etc.

3. Grad school - 70-80 most weeks. TT - I'd say 40-60, depending.

4. "Any tips on managing the "constantly having to be working" feeling" Stop telling yourself you should feel it. I turned off my phone's email notification bing. I don't check it when I'm doing my stuff (cooking/eating, working out, doing social things).

 

[Pragma]

I found the data!

 

[Ollie123]

1) 80 sounds extreme as an average. I know very few faculty pulling those kinds of hours on a regular basis. There may be exceptions others have noted (e.g. grant deadline coming up), but I certainly don't see it on a day-to-day basis. Research/academia (at least the upper echelons of it) is not the route to go if you want a 9-5 job. The same could be said of most high-level professions though. I've been fortunate to have good role models throughout my career. Individuals who struck a balance and yes - work very hard - but still have lives outside of work (despite being folks juggling multiple R01s at any given time). If I didn't know it was possible, I wouldn't be pursuing it myself.

2) There are many paths to tenure and tenure-track jobs, so its hard to say. Want to make tenure at Harvard? Maybe. That said, I think at that level its much more about efficiency, collaborations, leadership, etc. than about # of hours per se. At your local state teaching college? Probably not necessary, though you still won't be working 30 hours/week.

I've always been aiming for something more like the former. I'm currently in a weird hybrid post-doc/faculty position at a brand name institution and will get promoted to a traditional assistant professor gig as soon as I land substantive extramural funding to fully cover my own salary. They work us hard here. Tenure may or may not happen for me here. Its also not necessarily an "up or out" model - instead you are just relegated to assistant/associate professor purgatory indefinitely. Which isn't necessarily as bad as it might sound and many people are perfectly fine with that (particularly on the clinical side). The flip side is that if I can even be middle-of-the-pack here, I'd have zero problems getting tenure most other places. So I can always leave. People here tend to be VERY successful on the job market and most folks I've heard of leaving tend to be tenured shortly upon their arrival. I mention all this because I have found it super-helpful for setting boundaries. Its no longer that black-and-white "Work 100% of the time or have nothing to show for it." I'll work hard, I may or may not make tenure, if I don't it is VERY unlikely I'll be stuck unemployed for the rest of my life.

3) Grad School: ~60; Internship - 70-90 (terrible year..in part because I was still finalizing my dissertation); Currently 50-60. These are all averages. Grad school there were definitely weeks I worked less than 40 (primarily early on) and more than 70 (getting my F31 together). The other thing to keep in mind is efficiency. I was never the sort to go to lab and watch movies all day, but I certainly wasn't as efficient early on as I am now. I've long been a believer that "Work expands to fill the time that you have to do it." So find ways to reduce that time. Setting regular commitments for things you can't really cancel is a good way to do that. Part of this is just learning curve. Figuring out what "good enough" is, figuring out what activities you CAN say that too vs. ones you should spend a lot of time on, etc. For instance, my very first IRB application I tried to make perfect. Now I slap something and generally don't give a crap. I'm not proposing anything crazy or unethical so they aren't going to deny it outright. If they take issue with something, they're just going to ask me for more information which I'm happy to provide. I always expect to put in at least one amendment before I even start recruiting since there will inevitably something I forgot or want to change. This is a great example of something that ultimately doesn't matter...so things like spell-checking, grammar-checking, making sure my objectives and project description are very thorough and well-written....pshh. Not worth it for the IRB. Manuscripts are another matter.

4) I think my main piece of advice is what I already said above. Work expands to fill time. So set non-optional activities into your schedule, things you would feel bad cancelling. Invite people over a week in advance...you'll probably feel like too much of a jerk to cancel at the last minute. Remember that gradations of "Tenure-track academia" exist and its not an all-or-nothing endeavor. Also remember that there are a great many other options for a research-oriented psychologist. This is helpful for if you are someone like me, who has little-to-no interest in a primarily clinical position, to keep in mind since its easy to get caught up in the "If I don't get TT job, I don't get to do research" fallacy.


Finally, all of these things were a learning process so don't feel bad about having rough patches like the current one. Finding an appropriate work-life balance is a struggle for everyone aiming high. I know very few highly successful people who never had these problems. What matters is continuing to refine and figure out what works for you.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I can't comment on this specific career path, but looking at this thread it seems like you are working quite a bit more than the rest. One of the core competencies of a psychologist is effective self-care. I am sure that you are kickin' my butt on the research productivity aspect of this profession, but you might be a bit behind on the taking care of yourself part. I imagine if you were a little better at that aspect you would be more efficient and maybe even more productive. There might be a few irrational core beliefs that are getting in your way too. A little self-application of solid CBT never hurts. For example, I have an irrational core belief that no matter how hard I work, it won't be recognized so why bother? Definitely had to challenge that one to get through grad school.

 

[EmotRegulation]

1. Depends on how you prioritize! It can get better, sure, but it could get worse.
2. Not 80 hours a week, hell no. I work a lot, and my colleagues apparently think I never sleep (I've been asked that twice this year), but I get at least 7.5 hours of sleep a night and watch quite a bit of TV. As others have said, it's about working efficiently and managing the emotional side of the process.
3. How many hours did you work in grad school, post-doc, and then tenure-track or AMC jobs? Grad school? 70ish, internship, like 35 hours at internship and another 10/week on job apps/dissertation, tenure track now I work about 45 hours week on campus, 5 or so hours on the weekends and more when I have something major due. Was probably closer to 60 my first few years, but then I had a baby and refuse to let my work creep into already limited family time.
4. Acceptance! Accept that you might always have something else to do. My to-do list is a mile long, but that didn't stop me from taking 4 days off at ABCT to hang out with friends. It doesn't stop me from setting down my typing hands every evening to play with my baby and watch TV with my husband. Remember, feelings are not facts. They are valid pieces of data about how we are responding to our environment, but we don't have to listen to every feeling we have. That's what we tell clients ("Oh, you're too sad to get out of bed? Really? Do your legs still work? Because you COULD actually get out of bed!") and we can tell ourselves those things too. Once I accepted that there is always more work to do, then it was about learning to prioritize, learning to say no, and really trying to enjoy the time with my friends and family so that I can be more productive when I'm actually working.