Worst Case of Cheating/Gaming the System You've Seen in Undergrad or Med School

[deleted936268]

Hello!

I'm back with another one of these posts since a couple friends and I were talking about gunners or just in general how people have tried to game the system at our school.

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[deleted1071054]

A girl I know with physician parents helped her form an app that was extremely service oriented since she knew she hated research and wasn’t the most academically gifted. Essentially spent 4 years crafting a service oriented story (helping the underserved, eventual goal of going into primary care), spinning certain activities such as front desk work to reflect much more than what she did. She got into a bunch of great schools this cycle with the ultimate goal of orthopedics. Edit: While disingenuous, this doesn't necessarily reflect cheating lol... carry on.

 

[Means]

Anatomy at my undergrad was notoriously difficult and it was discovered that one of the TA's was giving the exams to over a dozen of his fraternity brothers the entire semester. Not sure of the circumstances on how they got caught, but the TA disappeared before finals week.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

A girl I know with physician parents helped her form an app that was extremely service oriented since she knew she hated research and wasn’t the most academically gifted. Essentially spent 4 years crafting a service oriented story (helping the underserved, primary care). She got into a bunch of great schools this cycle with the ultimate goal of orthopedics.

Did she actually perform the acts of service? If so, I do not see how that constitutes “cheating.”

 

[RJ McReady]

I think I’ve told this story on another thread...
I took a summer physics class as an UG bc I thought it’d be easier. Turns out I failed the first 2 exams so obviously I miscalculated. The drop deadline for this class was really late into the course (it being a concentrated summer curriculum) but I ended up dropping the class the day of the deadline. Then I signed up for the same class in the fall semester, not knowing this but it had the same professor AND THE SAME EXACT CURRICULUM AND EXAMS. So for the first 2 midterms I had all the answers going in. By that time I’d figured things out and aced the final-so ended up getting an A in the class without learning a lick of physics...
Am I ashamed? Yeah, a bit. But is it my fault the prof was too lazy to change his curriculum? I think not.

 

[KnightDoc]

A girl I know with physician parents helped her form an app that was extremely service oriented since she knew she hated research and wasn’t the most academically gifted. Essentially spent 4 years crafting a service oriented story (helping the underserved, primary care). She got into a bunch of great schools this cycle with the ultimate goal of orthopedics.

I dunno whether this is gaming the system or just receiving advice from someone who knows what they are doing, and building a record accordingly. Isn't this exactly what EVERYONE seeks to do, through advising, consultants, SDN, test prep, course selection, ECs that applicants would NEVER participate in if they weren't applying to med school, etc.?

It just seems to me like everyone does this, but some are ultimately far more successful than others. It also sounds like you are hating the player rather than a game that has moved far beyond its origins of strictly GPA and MCAT, as adcoms seek to open the process to a more diverse group of applicants and as the process has become insanely competitive over the years. It's also worth remembering that GPA and MCAT were also historically "gamed" (i.e., prepared for), although much more successfully by people with the knowledge and means to engage in strategic course selection and the purchase of MCAT prep courses and other help.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I dunno whether this is gaming the system or just receiving advice from someone who knows what they are doing, and building a record accordingly. Isn't this exactly what EVERYONE seeks to do, through advising, consultants, SDN, test prep, course selection, ECs that applicants would NEVER participate in if they weren't applying to med school, etc.?

It just seems to me like everyone does this, but some are ultimately far more successful than others. It also sounds like you are hating the player rather than a game that has moved far beyond its origins of strictly GPA and MCAT, as adcoms seek to open the process to a more diverse group of applicants and as the process has become insanely competitive over the years. It's also worth remembering that GPA and MCAT were also historically "gamed" (i.e., prepared for), although much more successfully by people with the knowledge and means to engage in strategic course selection and the purchase of MCAT prep courses and other help.

Yes. Literally everyone tries to maximize their chances of getting in by putting their best foot forward. If my kids decide to do medicine, of course I’m not going to let them flail around wildly when they are applying if i can direct them to the right place.

 

[Goro]

Every now and then a medical or SMP student will do poorly on an exam and then ask if there's extra credit.

I tell them that they're not in UG anymore.

 

[deleted555445]

Every now and then a medical or SMP student will do poorly on an exam and then ask if there's extra credit.

I tell them that they're not in UG anymore.

i've never heard of extra credit in undergrad. actually the only extra credit i've heard of since high school is in my graduate courses.

 

[deleted1071054]

I dunno whether this is gaming the system or just receiving advice from someone who knows what they are doing, and building a record accordingly. Isn't this exactly what EVERYONE seeks to do, through advising, consultants, SDN, test prep, course selection, ECs that applicants would NEVER participate in if they weren't applying to med school, etc.?

It just seems to me like everyone does this, but some are ultimately far more successful than others. It also sounds like you are hating the player rather than a game that has moved far beyond its origins of strictly GPA and MCAT, as adcoms seek to open the process to a more diverse group of applicants and as the process has become insanely competitive over the years. It's also worth remembering that GPA and MCAT were also historically "gamed" (i.e., prepared for), although much more successfully by people with the knowledge and means to engage in strategic course selection and the purchase of MCAT prep courses and other help.

IDK, gaming the system to me sounds like you're specifically lying about your own motivations and tailoring your app in one specific way because you know it will look good to Adcoms. What you're referring to by saying everyone does this, I think refers to constructing your app in a way that fits the narrative of your true interests based on your experiences. There may be some fluff involved here, fair play, but to take it another extreme level up and almostly completely lying because you know exactly what an adcom wants to see I think is gaming a system.

 

[deleted555445]

IDK, gaming the system to me sounds like you're specifically lying about your own motivations and tailoring your app in one specific way because you know it will look good to Adcoms. What you're referring to by saying everyone does this, I think refers to constructing your app in a way that fits the narrative of your true interests based on your experiences. There may be some fluff involved here, fair play, but to take it another extreme level up and almostly completely lying because you know exactly what an adcom wants to see I think is gaming a system.

i agree its sketch, it would be like volunteering exclusively in rural communities for years and framing your whole app around your dedication to rural communities, only to pursue plastics in NYC/LA. not cheating but definitely gaming.

 

[KnightDoc]

IDK, gaming the system to me sounds like you're specifically lying about your own motivations and tailoring your app in one specific way because you know it will look good to Adcoms. What you're referring to by saying everyone does this, I think refers to constructing your app in a way that fits the narrative of your true interests based on your experiences. There may be some fluff involved here, fair play, but to take it another extreme level up and almostly completely lying because you know exactly what an adcom wants to see I think is gaming a system.

Yeah, you're right, but we're really only talking about the degree to which it's done. Lying by saying you did something you didn't is cheating. Doing something you wouldn't organically do because you know it's what they are looking for is what every single applicant does, to a greater or lesser degree, and getting inside someone's head to determine their genuine motives is impossible.

What you call gaming the system others call merely playing the game. And I'm not talking about "fluff," which is a polite term for lying. I'm talking about crafting a narrative to appeal to adcoms. Our job as applicants is to make ourselves as attractive as possible to score the A. Their job is to sniff out insincere BS.

To the extent people are insincere and portray themselves as Mother Theresa when they are really a future Beverly Hills plastic surgeon in disguise, all that means is that the adcoms aren't as good as they want to be, and people who are good at playing the game are going to slip through. Is it unethical? I honestly don't think so.

I'm literally spending hundreds of hours engaging in the expected ECs when I'd really rather be hanging out with my friends or playing video games. Does that mean I don't deserve an A because my application is BS? I really think if there was a way to get inside people's heads and only admit people with high GPAs and MCATs AND who would participate in all the ECs med schools look for even if they thought they weren't getting credit for it, med schools would have a ton of open seats, and people who could meet that standard would have their pick of schools.

What about people who manipulate their GPAs by strategically selecting courses and professors, by retroactively electing P/F, by seeking out grade inflating schools, summer classes, CCs, etc.? What about people who take MCAT classes and mask what their natural abilities are without paid help??? JMHO as a fellow premed dutifully playing the game and giving them what they want.

It's TBD whether I'll ultimately be deemed to be full of crap or worthy of a chance to become a doctor. I want to have an interesting, well paid career involving science where I can help people, but, right now, as a college student, yeah, there are things I'd rather be doing than scribing, being a grunt in a research lab, demonstrating my altruism by volunteering, and then writing a bazillion essays about my experiences and how they have shaped me into someone worthy of entry into the club.

 

[deleted1071054]

Yeah, you're right, but we're really only talking about the degree to which it's done. Lying by saying you did something you didn't is cheating. Doing something you wouldn't organically do because you know it's what they are looking for is what every single applicant does, to a greater or lesser degree, and getting inside someone's head to determine their genuine motives is impossible.

What you call gaming the system others call merely playing the game. And I'm not talking about "fluff," which is a polite term for lying. I'm talking about crafting a narrative to appeal to adcoms. Our job as applicants is to make ourselves as attractive as possible to score the A. Their job is to sniff out insincere BS.

To the extent people are insincere and portray themselves as Mother Theresa when they are really a future Beverly Hills plastic surgeon in disguise, all that means is that the adcoms aren't as good as they want to be, and people who are good at playing the game are going to slip through. Is it unethical? I honestly don't think so.

I'm literally spending hundreds of hours engaging in the expected ECs when I'd really rather be hanging out with my friends or playing video games. Does that mean I don't deserve an A because my application is BS? I really think if there was a way to get inside people's heads and only admit people with high GPAs and MCATs AND who would participate in all the ECs med schools look for even if they thought they weren't getting credit for it, med schools would have a ton of open seats, and people who could meet that standard would have their pick of schools.

What about people who manipulate their GPAs by strategically selecting courses and professors, by retroactively electing P/F, by seeking out grade inflating schools, summer classes, CCs, etc.? What about people who take MCAT classes and mask what their natural abilities are without paid help??? JMHO as a fellow premed dutifully playing the game and giving them what they want.

It's TBD whether I'll ultimately be deemed to be full of crap or worthy of a chance to become a doctor. I want to have an interesting, well paid career involving science where I can help people, but, right now, as a college student, yeah, there are things I'd rather be doing than scribing, being a grunt in a research lab, demonstrating my altruism by volunteering, and then writing a bazillion essays about my experiences and how they have shaped me into someone worthy of entry into the club.

But the degree to which its done is exactly what’s of importance here. We cannot just equate all actions to be the same just because they differ by degree of severity, and I sincerely hope you know why. But don’t get me wrong I totally see what you’re saying and I’m not trying to equate being insincere with cheating, however I do think that gaming the system can exist on the spectrum of “playing the game” albeit a more severe form.

regardless I think we’re getting off track, good luck with your upcoming cycle.

 

[zorcandpals]

A girl I know with physician parents helped her form an app that was extremely service oriented since she knew she hated research and wasn’t the most academically gifted. Essentially spent 4 years crafting a service oriented story (helping the underserved, primary care). She got into a bunch of great schools this cycle with the ultimate goal of orthopedics.

does she not realize she is gonna have to do those things in med school if she wants ortho lol

 

[CricB4Tube]

In my undergrad microbio class (only 30ish students), it went from in-person to online mid semester because of COVID. Since all our exams were now online, things weren't very organized so exams were timed but taken on an integrity system for the most part. The questions required elaborate answers so Goolging them would probably kill your time anyways. The order of the questions were randomized for each student and questions were timed individually, so the time for the next question wouldn't start until you submitted your first question.
I was in a group text with 8 other students in the class that we started early in the semester for studying together. After I got out of work and checked my phone the night a test was due, I saw the 7 other students in the group text were taking pictures of their exam questions and sending them to each other so everyone in the group text could have most of the questions and come up with answers beforehand. I immediately replied in the group text saying this was wrong and I would have to report this to the professor. They all went nuts, cursing me out, some even threatening me. I emailed the professor right away with screenshots of the whole conversation and notified her that I had not begun the test yet and would like her to tell me how to proceed.
In the end, the 7 other students got disciplinary action from the school and they all failed the class. Many of them were premeds with me and were part of the premed club that I was president of. Thankfully school was all online so I didn't have to deal with any of them in person after I blocked all their numbers, but I assume I ruined a lot of their chances at med/grad school for "snitching."
It was tough having to throw my friends under the bus like that but I was not about to risk my entire future for a class that wasn't even that hard. And it sounds cliché but I actually think integrity is one of the most important attributes a person can have and I wouldn't want anyone like them in med school with me.

 

[LaughingGas10]

Let me ask all of you a question:

Rush university has by far the highest number of service hour requirement for admission to their medical school.

Do you REALLY believe that of the students graduating from Rush (who all got in with high service hours as a premed), there are that many more students who go on to serve the underserved as compared to a similar midlevel school which doesn't have a high service hour requirement (and thus matriculating premeds who have not done as many service hours) ?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

One person’s gaming is another person’s strategy.

 

[deleted555445]

One person’s gaming is another person’s strategy.

when i do strategy i plan on someone being the loser, and i'm making damn sure its not me. when i apply to medical school, i'd rather lose myself being honest about my goals than steal a spot from someone who will actually serve underserved communities. it turns out the underserved are not the enemy. call it gaming or strategy, it amounts to unethical behavior.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

when i do strategy i plan on someone being the loser, and i'm making damn sure its not me. when i apply to medical school, i'd rather lose myself being honest about my goals than steal a spot from someone who will actually serve underserved communities. it turns out the underserved are not the enemy. call it gaming or strategy, it amounts to unethical behavior.

But I thought adcoms are good at figuring who is genuine and who is fake.

 

[456432]

I put on AMCAS that I had 1600 research hours, but I actually had only 1599 hours. Sometimes I can't sleep at night because of it.

 

[la flame]

i think anyone who had boomer, lazy professors could have easily made a 4.0 soley using Chegg during the Spring/Summer 2020 semestes lol. I’m sure professors/universities have gotten stricter since but no one was prepared for that semester.

I remember it got so bad that I think it was either Rutgers or Boston College that a professor went thru the hassle of creating a chegg account to answer questions and upload his own exam just to see who was using chegg lol.

 

[dramanaut9518]

In my undergrad microbio class (only 30ish students), it went from in-person to online mid semester because of COVID. Since all our exams were now online, things weren't very organized so exams were timed but taken on an integrity system for the most part. The questions required elaborate answers so Goolging them would probably kill your time anyways. The order of the questions were randomized for each student and questions were timed individually, so the time for the next question wouldn't start until you submitted your first question.
I was in a group text with 8 other students in the class that we started early in the semester for studying together. After I got out of work and checked my phone the night a test was due, I saw the 7 other students in the group text were taking pictures of their exam questions and sending them to each other so everyone in the group text could have most of the questions and come up with answers beforehand. I immediately replied in the group text saying this was wrong and I would have to report this to the professor. They all went nuts, cursing me out, some even threatening me. I emailed the professor right away with screenshots of the whole conversation and notified her that I had not begun the test yet and would like her to tell me how to proceed.
In the end, the 7 other students got disciplinary action from the school and they all failed the class. Many of them were premeds with me and were part of the premed club that I was president of. Thankfully school was all online so I didn't have to deal with any of them in person after I blocked all their numbers, but I assume I ruined a lot of their chances at med/grad school for "snitching."
It was tough having to throw my friends under the bus like that but I was not about to risk my entire future for a class that wasn't even that hard. And it sounds cliché but I actually think integrity is one of the most important attributes a person can have and I wouldn't want anyone like them in med school with me.

So stunning and brave

 

[deleted1065184]

IDK, gaming the system to me sounds like you're specifically lying about your own motivations and tailoring your app in one specific way because you know it will look good to Adcoms. What you're referring to by saying everyone does this, I think refers to constructing your app in a way that fits the narrative of your true interests based on your experiences. There may be some fluff involved here, fair play, but to take it another extreme level up and almostly completely lying because you know exactly what an adcom wants to see I think is gaming a system.

I guess my question here is....do you know that she was lying? Is it farfetched to think she really did care a lot about the communities she was serving? She hated research so she chose not to do it. I can't imagine she'd spend 4 years putting in hella work in the community (enough to craft an application around) if she wasn't actually passionate about it. I guess it's possible, but doesn't seem likely. I also don't think her specialty choice has anything to do with this (my assumption is that you brought it up to point out her perceived inconsistency, but please correct me if I'm wrong). Underserved communities don't only need primary care physicians. I'm from one. They need orthopedic surgeons, they need dermatologists, etc.

 

[RickyRic]

In my undergrad microbio class (only 30ish students), it went from in-person to online mid semester because of COVID. Since all our exams were now online, things weren't very organized so exams were timed but taken on an integrity system for the most part. The questions required elaborate answers so Goolging them would probably kill your time anyways. The order of the questions were randomized for each student and questions were timed individually, so the time for the next question wouldn't start until you submitted your first question.
I was in a group text with 8 other students in the class that we started early in the semester for studying together. After I got out of work and checked my phone the night a test was due, I saw the 7 other students in the group text were taking pictures of their exam questions and sending them to each other so everyone in the group text could have most of the questions and come up with answers beforehand. I immediately replied in the group text saying this was wrong and I would have to report this to the professor. They all went nuts, cursing me out, some even threatening me. I emailed the professor right away with screenshots of the whole conversation and notified her that I had not begun the test yet and would like her to tell me how to proceed.
In the end, the 7 other students got disciplinary action from the school and they all failed the class. Many of them were premeds with me and were part of the premed club that I was president of. Thankfully school was all online so I didn't have to deal with any of them in person after I blocked all their numbers, but I assume I ruined a lot of their chances at med/grad school for "snitching."
It was tough having to throw my friends under the bus like that but I was not about to risk my entire future for a class that wasn't even that hard. And it sounds cliché but I actually think integrity is one of the most important attributes a person can have and I wouldn't want anyone like them in med school with me.

Honestly, I think what you did was really extreme. Cheating is 100% wrong, and I agree with you that integrity is a very important characteristic to have (especially as a physician). But cheating on one online exam does not necessarily mean they would be a bad physician.

Plus you recognized that you ruined your "friends" chances at med school. So it seems to me that you "snitched" on them not out of principle, but to get rid of potential competitors for your spot at med school.

Not condoning cheating, but I think you should have explained to them why cheating is wrong and left the group chat to dissociate yourself from the cheaters.

 

[CricB4Tube]

Honestly, I think what you did was really extreme. Cheating is 100% wrong, and I agree with you that integrity is a very important characteristic to have (especially as a physician). But cheating on one online exam does not necessarily mean they would be a bad physician.

Plus you recognized that you ruined your "friends" chances at med school. So it seems to me that you "snitched" on them not out of principle, but to get rid of potential competitors for your spot at med school.

Not condoning cheating, but I think you should have explained to them why cheating is wrong and left the group chat to dissociate yourself from the cheaters.

You're completely wrong. If the group chat was ever discovered after the fact, my name would have been on it and I would have taken a test with access to answers I should not have had. By not reporting it, I would have been just as guilty of cheating as everyone else.
And you seriously think I'm worried about like 5 potential med school competitors when each school I applied to had like 10k apps? Give me a break. It's not my job to explain to grown adults why cheating is wrong. Welcome to the real world where you have consequences for your actions.

 

[deleted1065184]

You're completely wrong. If the group chat was ever discovered after the fact, my name would have been on it and I would have taken a test with access to answers I should not have had. By not reporting it, I would have been just as guilty of cheating as everyone else.
And you seriously think I'm worried about like 5 potential med school competitors when each school I applied to had like 10k apps? Give me a break. It's not my job to explain to grown adults why cheating is wrong. Welcome to the real world where you have consequences for your actions.

I'm genuinely curious about why you didn't just leave the groupchat?

 

[CricB4Tube]

I'm genuinely curious about why you didn't just leave the groupchat?

Reread what I just wrote...

 

[zeddd78893]

Let me ask all of you a question:

Rush university has by far the highest number of service hour requirement for admission to their medical school.

Do you REALLY believe that of the students graduating from Rush (who all got in with high service hours as a premed), there are that many more students who go on to serve the underserved as compared to a similar midlevel school which doesn't have a high service hour requirement (and thus matriculating premeds who have not done as many service hours) ?

Just one perspective, but Rush is known to be the rich hospital in Chicago while cook county hospitals have always been the other side where the lower income / uninsured population is accepted. I find the "service orientation" at Rush to be so backwards considering how little service they actually provide to those in need. I doubt the students have exposure to many marginalized populations since the school is located in the loop. In my opinion, I don't think students here are better set to be physicians to the underserved, but there's always internal motivation + targeted curriculum that may serve this purpose.

 

[deleted1065184]

Reread what I just wrote...

Wouldn't there also be a record of you telling them that what they were doing was wrong and you subsequently leaving?

Idk dude, I absolutely agree that cheating is bad (although at this stage, more so for them than for anybody else), but I can't get behind your point about them not needing to go into medicine. People make mistakes, people grow and learn from mistakes.

Western medicine itself has an extremely dark past and has caused permanent damage to certain communities that it has not yet reconciled with (and has hardly even tried to, tbh). There's a lot of racism and sexism in the field, there are plenty of arrogant dinguses, there is just so much that needs to be drastically improved in medicine. So to apply this bad decision to their character as a whole and say they shouldn't go into medicine just seems ridiculous.

 

[CricB4Tube]

Wouldn't there also be a record of you telling them that what they were doing was wrong and you subsequently leaving?

Idk dude, I absolutely agree that cheating is bad (although at this stage, more so for them than for anybody else), but I can't get behind your point about them not needing to go into medicine. People make mistakes, people grow and learn from mistakes.

Western medicine itself has an extremely dark past and has caused permanent damage to certain communities that it has not yet reconciled with (and has hardly even tried to, tbh). There's a lot of racism and sexism in the field, there are plenty of arrogant dinguses, there is just so much that needs to be drastically improved in medicine. So to apply this bad decision to their character as a whole and say they shouldn't go into medicine just seems ridiculous.

When my school asks, "Why didn't you report this?" what would I have said? "They're my buddies and I promise I just left the group chat without reading over all the information they wrote and I promise I didn't take a screenshot of all the answers before I took my test."

I never said they shouldn't go into medicine. I said I wouldn't want them in med school with me.

 

[deleted1065184]

When my school asks, "Why didn't you report this?" what would I have said? "They're my buddies and I promise I just left the group chat without reading over all the information they wrote and I promise I didn't take a screenshot of all the answers before I took my test."

I never said they shouldn't go into medicine. I said I wouldn't want them in med school with me.

Can you get in trouble for not reporting cheating at your school? Honest question. If so, then I get it. What you did is fair. And you didn't explicitly say they shouldn't go into medicine, but I can't imagine you not wanting them in med school with you solely means "I totally think you should go into medicine, just not my school" lol

 

[LaughingGas10]

Just one perspective, but Rush is known to be the rich hospital in Chicago while cook county hospitals have always been the other side where the lower income / uninsured population is accepted. I find the "service orientation" at Rush to be so backwards considering how little service they actually provide to those in need. I doubt the students have exposure to many marginalized populations since the school is located in the loop. In my opinion, I don't think students here are better set to be physicians to the underserved, but there's always internal motivation + targeted curriculum that may serve this purpose.

I agree with you. I find this requirement by Rush hard to understand, given their overall corporate stance.

Maybe it is just their ADCOM which has placed this requirement for some unclear reasons.

@Goro do you have any insight into this ?

 

[Flareicus]

Wouldn't there also be a record of you telling them that what they were doing was wrong and you subsequently leaving?

Idk dude, I absolutely agree that cheating is bad (although at this stage, more so for them than for anybody else), but I can't get behind your point about them not needing to go into medicine. People make mistakes, people grow and learn from mistakes.

Western medicine itself has an extremely dark past and has caused permanent damage to certain communities that it has not yet reconciled with (and has hardly even tried to, tbh). There's a lot of racism and sexism in the field, there are plenty of arrogant dinguses, there is just so much that needs to be drastically improved in medicine. So to apply this bad decision to their character as a whole and say they shouldn't go into medicine just seems ridiculous.

Honestly, I have no sympathy for them. If you're going to pursue medicine, you should know what cheating will do to your application. If you're going to cheat, you had better be prepared for the consequences, especially if you do it in such a stupid way with an easily provable trail.

 

[CricB4Tube]

Can you get in trouble for not reporting cheating at your school? Honest question. If so, then I get it. What you did is fair. And you didn't explicitly say they shouldn't go into medicine, but I can't imagine you not wanting them in med school with you solely means "I totally think you should go into medicine, just not my school" lol

Literally any reputable school in the country would have an issue with you not reporting blatant, organized cheating in a group chat you're a part of...
I don't totally think they should go into medicine. I think they showed a huge lapse in judgement and med school admissions should be the judge of if they want these known cheaters attending their schools.
You wouldn't have any issue with people in your med school class outranking you by cheating?

 

[deleted1065184]

Honestly, I have no sympathy for them. If you're going to pursue medicine, you should know what cheating will do to your application. If you're going to cheat, you had better be prepared for the consequences, especially if you do it in such a stupid way with an easily provable trail.

What they did is very stupid, no doubt. I can't say I don't have sympathy for them, though. Young people commonly make stupid mistakes when they're younger...and I just don't believe the vast majority of these foolish decisions should have such a detrimental impact on the trajectory of their lives. I just hope they learn from this, do better in the future, and that any potential career in medicine isn't forever out of the picture for them.

 

[deleted1065184]

Literally any reputable school in the country would have an issue with you not reporting blatant, organized cheating in a group chat you're a part of...
I don't totally think they should go into medicine. I think they showed a huge lapse in judgement and med school admissions should be the judge of if they want these known cheaters attending their schools.
You wouldn't have any issue with people in your med school class outranking you by cheating?

I genuinely couldn't care less what my future classmates choose to do. The thing about medicine is that you can't cheat the board exams and you can't cheat on the wards. The knowledge deficit will be clear as day. If my classmates want to fumble their own bags by not putting in the work, that's on them. I'm just going to be in my own lane minding my business and learning to the best of my abilities.

 

[Goro]

I agree with you. I find this requirement by Rush hard to understand, given their overall corporate stance.

Maybe it is just their ADCOM which has placed this requirement for some unclear reasons.

@Goro do you have any insight into this ?

Haven't a clue. This is a level of granularity that I doubt many people are aware of outside of the Chicago area.

I guess the bigger question is where do Rush graduates end up in thier careers?

 

[viralhiker]

Literally any reputable school in the country would have an issue with you not reporting blatant, organized cheating in a group chat you're a part of...

I don't think you would be punished for not reporting your classmates cheating. Also, I am not 100% sold that what you did was the correct response. Maybe it was.. At the very least, dropping the hammer on your friends/acquaintances like that required some pretty big cajones.

Edit: I think if I were in your position I would have been worried about the potential for retribution. Desperate people do desperate things, and man, you certainly made some enemies in a very clear and spectacular way.

 

[CricB4Tube]

I don't think you would be punished for not reporting your classmates cheating. Also, I am not 100% sold that what you did was the correct response. Maybe it was.. At the very least, dropping the hammer on your friends/acquaintances like that required some pretty big cajones.

Edit: I think if I were in your position I would have been worried about the potential for retribution. Desperate people do desperate things, and man, you certainly made some enemies in a very clear and spectacular way.

You're wrong about not being punished if I didn't report them. What exactly would you have done?

I'm not worried about potential retribution from some classmates. I AM worried about potential judgement from my adcom overlords.

 

[viralhiker]

So what exactly would you have done?

I definitely would have left the chat, but before doing so, sternly warned them of the consequences of their actions if this came to light. I would've also advised them to rethink their decision and not utilize the ill-gotten resources. Maybe that way you're giving someone a chance to realize they were making a mistake and to walk back from the ledge.

If I was told to shove-off and saw that everyone was still cheating, I dunno. A wise man said the hardest choices require the strongest of wills, and I doubt in this particular situation I would have the conviction to act as my friends' executioner.

 

[RickyRic]

You're completely wrong. If the group chat was ever discovered after the fact, my name would have been on it and I would have taken a test with access to answers I should not have had. By not reporting it, I would have been just as guilty of cheating as everyone else.
And you seriously think I'm worried about like 5 potential med school competitors when each school I applied to had like 10k apps? Give me a break. It's not my job to explain to grown adults why cheating is wrong. Welcome to the real world where you have consequences for your actions.

First of all, I do not believe that not reporting it makes you as guilty as the others. I know some, like you, may have that opinion, but not everyone does.

Second, I am not saying you are worried specifically about those 5 other applicants, my comment is about the idea of what you did. You knowingly sabotaged some people that you called "friends" (I think that's the part that really bothers me. How can you do that to your friends?). You willingly threw them under the bus to get a slight advantage (since those people are in your premed club they are probably competitive and applying to similar schools as you).

Obviously, there are consequences (positive and negative) for all actions. But when you become the premed Batman, it's annoying and no one wants to be associated with you.

 

[CricB4Tube]

I definitely would have left the chat, but before doing so, sternly warned them of the consequences of their actions if this came to light. I would've also advised them to rethink their decision and not utilize the ill-gotten resources. Maybe that way you're giving someone a chance to realize they were making a mistake and to walk back from the ledge.

If I was told to shove-off and saw that everyone was still cheating, I dunno. A wise man said the hardest choices require the strongest of wills, and I doubt in this particular situation I would have the conviction to act as my friends' executioner.

And when you're called into your dean's office a month later for not reporting that you had access to answers after acing your exam?

 

[CricB4Tube]

First of all, I do not believe that not reporting it makes you as guilty as the others. I know some, like you, may have that opinion, but not everyone does.

Second, I am not saying you are worried specifically about those 5 other applicants, my comment is about the idea of what you did. You knowingly sabotaged some people that you called "friends" (I think that's the part that really bothers me. How can you do that to your friends?). You willingly threw them under the bus to get a slight advantage (since those people are in your premed club they are probably competitive and applying to similar schools as you).

Obviously, there are consequences (positive and negative) for all actions. But when you become the premed Batman, it's annoying and no one wants to be associated with you.

How did I get any sort of advantage here? I literally protected my reputation so I could have a career in medicine. You must have some awesome friends that you're willing to give up becoming a doctor to protect their dishonesty.

 

[deleted1065184]

You're wrong about not being punished if I didn't report them. What exactly would you have done?

I'm not worried about potential retribution from some classmates. I AM worried about potential judgement from my adcom overlords.

While I don't agree that any "reputable" school would punish students who don't report the cheating of others, it appears that your school does and I definitely understand your decision. I'm not sure if I would have done it, though. But I'd certainly hate to risk having an IA without having done anything wrong, so I get it.

 

[viralhiker]

And when you're called into your dean's office a month later for not reporting that you had access to answers after acing your exam?

"I saw that inappropriate behavior was occurring, and as soon as I was aware, I admonished my colleagues to allow them the chance to rethink their actions. I then removed myself from the situation and took my exam without any outside resources."

IDK dude. I don't think what you did was legally wrong. I just know I would find it extremely difficult to solely and immediately condemn those that I considered to be my friends.

 

[CricB4Tube]

"I saw that inappropriate behavior was occurring, and as soon as I was aware, I admonished my colleagues to allow them the chance to rethink their actions. I then removed myself from the situation and took my exam without any outside resources."

IDK dude. I don't think what you did was legally wrong. I just know I would find it extremely difficult to solely and immediately condemn those that I considered to be my friends.

And now your dean says since you have no way of proving you didn't use that cheater information, you automatically fail your exam with a fat 0. And on top of that, you get an IA on your record so you aren't going to med school any time soon.
Now what's more extremely difficult: reporting your friends for forcing you into a cheating ring, or being the most overqualified EMT in your city for the next 5+ years?

 

[viralhiker]

And now your dean says since you have no way of proving you didn't use that cheater information, you automatically fail your exam with a fat 0. And on top of that, you get an IA on your record so you aren't going to med school any time soon.
Now what's more extremely difficult: reporting your friends for forcing you into a cheating ring, or being the most overqualified EMT in your city for the next 5+ years?

And then the dean turns into a 50 foot tall monster from the Paleolithic era.

I mean, yeah, if we want to keep extending this hypothetical situation into hyperbole that would likely not happen, I am sure you can justify what you did. I am just saying that I don't think I would be as unaffected by this decision as you seem to be. Additionally, I don't think you'd be punished for not reporting your friends. But others who are more experienced should weigh in on that.

Edit: I just noticed you say you were "forced into a cheating ring" bruh come on. You weren't forced into anything.

 

[RickyRic]

How did I get any sort of advantage here? I literally protected my reputation so I could have a career in medicine. You must have some awesome friends that you're willing to give up becoming a doctor to protect their dishonesty.

The advantage (although so small it is probably negligible) was that you removed competitors for a seat at the medical schools you are applying for.
Like others have pointed out, if you left the group chat, with evidence that you disagreed with the cheating, you would not have gotten in trouble. Is there a chance that med schools could have gotten word of this situation, and rescinded your acceptances? of course.

But that probability is pretty much 0%, and if you can't see that I wish you and your future colleagues all the best.

 

[CricB4Tube]

And then the dean turns into a 50 foot tall monster from the Paleolithic era.

I mean, yeah, if we want to keep extending this hypothetical situation into hyperbole that would likely not happen, I am sure you can justify what you did. I am just saying that I don't think I would be as unaffected by this decision as you seem to be. Additionally, I don't think you'd be punished for not reporting your friends. But others who are more experienced should weigh in on that.

Edit: I just noticed you say you were "forced into a cheating ring" bruh come on. You weren't forced into anything.

Straight out of my student handbook:
"Behavior that falls under the heading of academic dishonesty includes the following:
B. The giving and/or receiving of aid on any examinations"
So yes, by not reporting it I would have been violating my school academic dishonesty policy.

 

[CricB4Tube]

The advantage (although so small it is probably negligible) was that you removed competitors for a seat at the medical schools you are applying for.
Like others have pointed out, if you left the group chat, with evidence that you disagreed with the cheating, you would not have gotten in trouble. Is there a chance that med schools could have gotten word of this situation, and rescinded your acceptances? of course.

But that probability is pretty much 0%, and if you can't see that I wish you and your future colleagues all the best.

I'm convinced you're either a troll or you're one of the students I reported (Phil, is that you?)
The fact that you have such an issue with someone reporting obvious, premeditated cheating speaks more about your character than it does mine.