Would the PhD to MD route be better if I'm unsure?

[lazymd]

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[QofQuimica]

If you've already read the threads in this forum on PhD-to-MD, then you know that I am a PhD-to-MD, and you know that yes, I'd argue that starting out with the plan of doing PhD-to-MD is an idiot move. That being said, this argument is mainly directed toward those people who know they want both degrees but are thinking that PhD-to-MD would be a good back door way of getting an MD/PhD because their grades or MCAT aren't good enough to get into an MD/PhD program. It doesn't sound like you fall into the category of wanting both degrees. If you don't think you want an MD, then by all means, go to grad school. Medical school is definitely not worth doing just for the heck of it, especially because an MD with no residency afterward is basically useless. If you do commit to doing the four years of med school, you should plan on also committing to 3+ years of residency/fellowship afterward.

 

[lazymd]

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[QofQuimica]

If you don't mind me asking, why is the PhD to MD route not recommended if it will probably take the same amount of time to complete?

Because it almost certainly won't take the same amount of time to complete. MD/PhD programs are integrated. Those students often do their lab rotations and take grad school courses while in medical school, which helps allow them to finish their PhDs in 3-4 years. Straight PhD students tend to take more along the lines of 5-6 years in many bench research fields, or even longer. That is partly because of the lack of a jump start with rotations and classes that the MD/PhD students get, but also because of additional responsibilities that many MD/PhD students do not have, such as being required to teach. Until you've TAed or taught a class of premeds, you cannot even begin to fathom how much time and energy that sucks up.

Other reasons for avoiding PhD-to-MD include the not insignificant additional debt you will almost certainly incur by doing separate degrees, and the greater difficulty of getting accepted to medical school versus grad school. Most MD/PhD programs (and certainly all MSTPs) fully fund their students, including living expenses, during medical school. This obviously does not happen for most people if they go PhD-to-MD. At the point where you're a med student, you're probably going to be taking out six figure loans just like any other med student.

Also, whatever stats problems people who are contemplating PhD-to-MD have right now don't go away or get minimized just because they have a PhD. You should think of a PhD like a really nice EC in terms of regular med school admissions. If you have stellar grades and MCAT, a successful PhD can help you stand out from the sea of trad applicants. But if you have a sub-3.0 UG GPA and/or a sub-25 MCAT, you should expect a long, uphill battle to get into any American medical school, with or without a PhD. A solid applicant should have a 3.5+ UG GPA and a 30+ MCAT to be reasonably competitive for the majority of medical schools. A stellar applicant would be more along the lines of 3.8+ and 35+. But an applicant who has those kinds of stats would already be competitive for MD/PhD programs anyway, so again, PhD-to-MD doesn't make much sense if you go into the app process knowing that you want both degrees.

 

[lazymd]

Because it almost certainly won't take the same amount of time to complete. MD/PhD programs are integrated. Those students often do their lab rotations and take grad school courses while in medical school, which ........

Wow... This definitely shines a new light on everything. Thanks!

 

[randomquestions]

Also, whatever stats problems people who are contemplating PhD-to-MD have right now don't go away or get minimized just because they have a PhD. You should think of a PhD like a really nice EC in terms of regular med school admissions. If you have stellar grades and MCAT, a successful PhD can help you stand out from the sea of trad applicants. But if you have a sub-3.0 UG GPA and/or a sub-25 MCAT, you should expect a long, uphill battle to get into any American medical school, with or without a PhD. A solid applicant should have a 3.5+ UG GPA and a 30+ MCAT to be reasonably competitive for the majority of medical schools. A stellar applicant would be more along the lines of 3.8+ and 35+. But an applicant who has those kinds of stats would already be competitive for MD/PhD programs anyway, so again, PhD-to-MD doesn't make much sense if you go into the app process knowing that you want both degrees.

What about the 26-30 MCAT/3.0-3.3 GPA applicants? What would you suggest for them if they are interested in both degrees? Thanks

 

[QofQuimica]

What about the 26-30 MCAT/3.0-3.3 GPA applicants? What would you suggest for them if they are interested in both degrees? Thanks

Apply for MD (or DO) only programs. It's getting into med school that's the hard part, so that's what you need to focus on. You can add on your research training (with or without a PhD) at any point in the medical training process.

 

[Caprica6]

You should not enter an MD program unless you are sure it's what you want to do. I think in your case, the PhD to MD route would be a valid option. May I suggest another option as well? You do not need to apply to any programs if you are not sure. I do not know if you are currently in school or have already graduated, but you should consider taking time off before you apply. If you went this route, I'd suggest working in a lab, and volunteering/shadowing for the clinical experience. That way you are improving your application no matter what field you end up entering.

 

[randomquestions]

Apply for MD (or DO) only programs. It's getting into med school that's the hard part, so that's what you need to focus on. You can add on your research training (with or without a PhD) at any point in the medical training process.

I'm confused. Are you saying that it's possible to switch to the MD/PhD program while attending medical school?

 

[StilgarMD]

He means that you can do research on the side, or you can do internal acceptance from an MD program, to an MD/PhD program. its allowed within the first 2 years of med school typically, and rarely from graduate school.

If you want to know which programs accept internal applicants from the MD or PhD tracks, check out this Table, but make sure to double check with the school: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62760/data/faqtable.pdf

the 3rd and 4th columns state whether the school accepts internal transfers to the program.

everything i've heard says that if you want to do MD/PhD, its a bad idea to go into the Med school first as a route for acceptance. in some schools, transfering into the program is nearly unheard of, where as at other programs its more common.

 

[ToldYouSo]

He means that you can do research on the side, or you can do internal acceptance from an MD program, to an MD/PhD program. its allowed within the first 2 years of med school typically, and rarely from graduate school.

If you want to know which programs accept internal applicants from the MD or PhD tracks, check out this Table, but make sure to double check with the school: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62760/data/faqtable.pdf

the 3rd and 4th columns state whether the school accepts internal transfers to the program.

everything i've heard says that if you want to do MD/PhD, its a bad idea to go into the Med school first as a route for acceptance. in some schools, transfering into the program is nearly unheard of, where as at other programs its more common.

Wow, all the schools listed except Tufts and Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences accept internal MD students, which is surprising to me. Is it really that easy to transfer into a program this way?

 

[randomquestions]

He means that you can do research on the side, or you can do internal acceptance from an MD program, to an MD/PhD program. its allowed within the first 2 years of med school typically, and rarely from graduate school.

If you want to know which programs accept internal applicants from the MD or PhD tracks, check out this Table, but make sure to double check with the school: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62760/data/faqtable.pdf

the 3rd and 4th columns state whether the school accepts internal transfers to the program.

everything i've heard says that if you want to do MD/PhD, its a bad idea to go into the Med school first as a route for acceptance. in some schools, transfering into the program is nearly unheard of, where as at other programs its more common.

Wow.. I never would've thought that that was possible. Thanks for your help.

 

[Sephiroth]

He means that you can do research on the side, or you can do internal acceptance from an MD program, to an MD/PhD program. its allowed within the first 2 years of med school typically, and rarely from graduate school.

If you want to know which programs accept internal applicants from the MD or PhD tracks, check out this Table, but make sure to double check with the school: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62760/data/faqtable.pdf

the 3rd and 4th columns state whether the school accepts internal transfers to the program.

everything i've heard says that if you want to do MD/PhD, its a bad idea to go into the Med school first as a route for acceptance. in some schools, transfering into the program is nearly unheard of, where as at other programs its more common.

I think there may even be a few research-heavy residencies that offer a PhD

 

[K31]

Wow, all the schools listed except Tufts and Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences accept internal MD students, which is surprising to me. Is it really that easy to transfer into a program this way?

It's common at some schools. I'm in a program that tends to take one or two students into the MD/PhD program from pretty much every MS-1 class.

Acceptance a PhD program is much harder (ie virtually unheard-of at most schools).

 

[StilgarMD]

I would be curious to know what kinds of things they look for in transfers, in particular whether they weigh heavily your undergraduate qualifications, or if its more med school based.

 

[StIGMA]

I would be curious to know what kinds of things they look for in transfers, in particular whether they weigh heavily your undergraduate qualifications, or if its more med school based.

A large part of it is your research background and future commitment to research. Many internal MD applicants also have strong letters from a PI at the university (eg: from the summer between M1 and M2 doing research).

From an MD/PhD program's perspective, they do not have to pay for 1-2 years of your medical school, so you are cheaper than a new student, and they already have an idea of how well you did in your first year of medical school before accepting you.

I do not think undergraduate qualifications- other than research qualifications and PI recommendations- are very important.

 

[K31]

A large part of it is your research background and future commitment to research. Many internal MD applicants also have strong letters from a PI at the university (eg: from the summer between M1 and M2 doing research).

Agreed. There's not that much you can do during your first year of medical school to make yourself more attractive to the MD/PhD program other than do well on your classes. Time to do research is limited, and even if you do find time applications start so early that you are unlikely to have anything to show.

FWIW, I have never seen someone successfully apply to the MD/PhD program as an MS-1 after being turned down the first time around--it is always applicants who didn't apply MD/PhD the first time around for some reason. Therefore I don't think reapplying during medical school should be considered a valid backup if you don't get a MD/PhD offer the first time around.

 

[solitude]

Agreed. There's not that much you can do during your first year of medical school to make yourself more attractive to the MD/PhD program other than do well on your classes. Time to do research is limited, and even if you do find time applications start so early that you are unlikely to have anything to show.

FWIW, I have never seen someone successfully apply to the MD/PhD program as an MS-1 after being turned down the first time around--it is always applicants who didn't apply MD/PhD the first time around for some reason. Therefore I don't think reapplying during medical school should be considered a valid backup if you don't get a MD/PhD offer the first time around.

I agree and disagree. If you can, do lab work the summer before you start MS1, then hit the ground running and MAKE TIME to keep doing it as an MS1. If that year your application fails, keep working in the lab summer after MS1 and reapply. I know multiple people initially rejected MSTP who re-applied and were accepted as an MS1 or MS2. I agree though that it should not be considered a valid backup. It's still usually a long shot (although, in my estimation, higher odds than a regular application from a student who has not yet matriculated).

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm confused. Are you saying that it's possible to switch to the MD/PhD program while attending medical school?

As others have already said, sometimes, depending on the program. Whereas, odds of transferring from a PhD program to an MD/PhD program are slim to none.

He means that you can do research on the side, or you can do internal acceptance from an MD program, to an MD/PhD program. its allowed within the first 2 years of med school typically, and rarely from graduate school.

Ahem. I'm a she.

And while trying to transfer into your med school's MD/PhD program is one option, there are other options, such as taking time off during medical school to do a PhD and then coming back to finish med school. One person I went to med school with did that. You don't get your med school paid for that way, but it's an option. Research fellowships after med school are also an option, and you can apparently even take a LOA from residency to do a PhD in some cases--I have a friend from college who is doing that. He's insane, but here he is doing a PhD in the middle of his surgery residency.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Ahem. I'm a she.

Not according to VC7777 you aren't, and I'm more inclined to believe her about that

Research fellowships after med school are also an option, and you can apparently even take a LOA from residency to do a PhD in some cases--I have a friend from college who is doing that. He's insane, but here he is doing a PhD in the middle of his surgery residency.

God, why!?!

Seriously though there are a few programs I'm familiar with that will let you do a PhD during residency. I know the neurosurgery residency at one of my institutions will let you do a PhD. Now why anyone would want to tack on a PhD during a 7 year residency program is beyond me. (Although it did seem implied that they finish in a decent more predictable time-frame. Heck I think they even get paid their resident salary while progressing up the PGY scale).

 

[QofQuimica]

Seriously though there are a few programs I'm familiar with that will let you do a PhD during residency. I know the neurosurgery residency at one of my institutions will let you do a PhD. Now why anyone would want to tack on a PhD during a 7 year residency program is beyond me. (Although it did seem implied that they finish in a decent more predictable time-frame. Heck I think they even get paid their resident salary while progressing up the PGY scale).

Well, but a residency that long likely already includes a year or two of dedicated research time, so you're not talking about adding on another 6 years on top of what they're already doing. And I think you're right about these folks being paid as a PGY-15 or whatever.