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[aam0050]

I actually thought about the same scenario the other day! Sorry I don't have an answer, but I look forward to reading what others have to say!

 

[Richard_Hom]

Typically, no. However, most optometrists are required to BCLS provider qualified and if current, you may represent yourself as such (a first aid responder)

 

[blazenmadison]

I actually thought about the same scenario the other day! Sorry I don't have an answer, but I look forward to reading what others have to say!

Unless something is wrong with the person's eyes, you can't touch him/her.
You are a doctor of optometry, not a medical doctor. An EMT/RN would be more qualified than an optometrist to respond to situation like that.

 

[rpames]

In a situation like that, I disagree that you would not be able to "touch that person." As an OD, you have a much greater understanding of the human body and medicine than the general public. You will be trained in CPR/first aid, and be trained how to asses the situation in a logical and calm manor.

I would respond to the train car and represent myself an optometrist who is trained as a first responder, not just by the generic "Doctor X." If you said, "I'm Dr. X," and leave it at that, it would be misleading. If you then help the victim you would be protected under the "Good Samaritan" law.

I do agree, that if an EMT was there also, let them take the lead. I would also argue that if a Psychiatrist was there the EMT should still take the lead. I am friends with a few nurses so I hope this does not come off as offensive, but I don't think any RN would be better to take charge over any OD. If the RN was an ER nurse, or in any other acute care setting, then YES...but if they were a nurse at an allergy clinic...NO.

My whole post is saying, as an OD you are trained in emergency situations to some extent, and you will be more qualified then most people, but know your limits...it is not as if you would know how to intubate.

 

[rpames]

A few months ago I was chaperoning a HS homecoming dance and a girl passed-out and then seizured. I ran over and took charge of the situation. I assessed her and did what needed to be done. The liaison officer was there and he also helped. I assessed her airway/breathing/pulse and checked for trauma. I told the officer to get the schools oxygen tank and I maintained her airway, which I had to clear with the old "finger scoop" if you know what I mean. As I was doing this I asked her friend if she has any allergies, what medications she was on, if she had been drink or doing drugs. I then asked what she ate at dinner and basically took a history. When the EMTs arrived I was able to tell them her known history, pulse, breathing rate.

The short version...I, a simple OD 4th year, was able to help and "touch" this victim. I was the most qualified person in the building to handle the situation.

So, yes, as and OD you will be able to help in an emergency situation.

 

[PBEA]

I think it depends on the good samaritan laws of your state. You may be able to assist under these laws with no liability. You should however never represent yourself as an MD, or as an EMT. As Dr.Hom mentioned, basic CPR pretty much sums it up. If you have the desire to really help in these types of situations then you might want to consider medical school.

 

[rpames]

If you have the desire to really help in these types of situations then you might want to consider medical school.

Helping out in "these types of situations" is not something to only leave to the "real" doctors. As I stated above, an OD is more qualified then the local mechanic to help in a medical emergency. So, if an ER doc happens to be there, great. But if it is only an OD, roofer, lawyer, accountant, and a pastry chef...you can finish the rest of my thought.

An as far as representing yourself as an MD or EMT...no one would dispute what you said.

 

[4Eyes]

In a situation like that, [...]

Well said.

I think it depends on the good samaritan laws of your state. You may be able to assist under these laws with no liability. You should however never represent yourself as an MD, or as an EMT. As Dr.Hom mentioned, basic CPR pretty much sums it up. If you have the desire to really help in these types of situations then you might want to consider medical school.

With this frame of logic, one would need to be an MD or EMT to be certified as a lifeguard. The reason Red Cross has these classes is so more people are trained to handle certain emergency situations when an MD isn't around. No one is trying to misrepresent his/herself. But I'm pretty sure an OD with First Aid/CPR/AED training is better than nothing at all.

I found a listing of Good Samaritan laws by state here.

 

[cpw]

So do optometrists get trained in CPR/First Aid, etc?

Our school required us to sit through the full 8 hour Professional Responder CPR class through the Red Cross. I'm not sure all the schools do that, but they should.

I'd definitely echo what rpames said... if you're the only one there you can definitely perform CPR. But, if someone there's more qualified by all means let them take over and offer to lend them a hand.

 

[r_salis]

Our school required us to sit through the full 8 hour Professional Responder CPR class through the Red Cross. I'm not sure all the schools do that, but they should.

Ditto for my school. We get both adult and child/infant cpr, as well as first aid.

 

[Richard_Hom]

Unless something is wrong with the person's eyes, you can't touch him/her.
You are a doctor of optometry, not a medical doctor. An EMT/RN would be more qualified than an optometrist to respond to situation like that.

I detect a bit of "edge" in your post. Any one trained in BCLS provider or basic can represent themselves as a first aid responder until 911 personnel or other more qualified individual arrives on the scene. No Good Samaritan law will be abrdiged if you present yourself as such. Even in the presence of medical doctors/EMT/RN, first aid responders can provide much assistance when there are "hands" needed in any mass casualty situation.

I've been involved with more than one mass casualty situation and in most circumstances, the on scene person in charge gave the orders and triaged and all first aid persons were the hands for the person in charge.

Let us not forget that for lack of volunteering as a first aid responder you might let some one suffer much greater morbidity or even mortality.

I think people might forget what was taught in first aid first response classes. Activate the emergency medical system immediately, declare that you are first aid trained and ask any around if assistance is available or required. In the absence of any other first aid person, you might become very helpful to someone.

 

[blazenmadison]

I detect a bit of "edge" in your post. Any one trained in BCLS provider or basic can represent themselves as a first aid responder until 911 personnel or other more qualified individual arrives on the scene. QUOTE]

I was going on the lines that an OD should not respond to the calling, "Yes I am a 'doctor', and I can help." They need to properly identify themselves and state their qualifications.
I am not saying an optometrist shouldn't assist if there is no one else more qualified (EMS) available. Sorry if I made it sound like an optometrist wouldn't know how to put a band-aid on.
But do Know your limitations and this isn't the field of work you signed up for. Like PBEA said, if this is your cup of tea, then maybe get a MD?

 

[blazenmadison]

.
I am friends with a few nurses so I hope this does not come off as offensive, but I don't think any RN would be better to take charge over any OD. If the RN was an ER nurse, or in any other acute care setting, then YES...but if they were a nurse at an allergy clinic...NO.

If an OD can pass the NCLEX-RN, then by all means he/she should take over. If you think you're more qualified than an allergy nurse, then go ahead. Afterall, the goal is to help hopefully not hurt the patient.

 

[Richard_Hom]

I am not saying an optometrist shouldn't assist if there is no one else more qualified (EMS) available. Sorry if I made it sound like an optometrist wouldn't know how to put a band-aid on...But do Know your limitations and this isn't the field of work you signed up for. Like PBEA said, if this is your cup of tea, then maybe get a MD?...

There goes that edge again. Everything sounded great until you added that last sentence. No one here is trying to act like an "MD". Cheez! Let up!

Look, I think it was an innocent query from a optometry student. Let's not get weird about territory or jurisdiction. Let's just say that act responsibly. Act when you think you can help someone until the professionals come. That should be as concise as needed without any editorial ad libbing.

 

[kwrugby12]

Yeah I probably would do my best to help. If an EMT/MD or medical malpractice attorney were there I would let them have at it and assist. What if this scenario happens in your office though? Are we not liable to help, even before first responders show?

 

[ProZackMI]

In a situation like that, I disagree that you would not be able to "touch that person." As an OD, you have a much greater understanding of the human body and medicine than the general public. You will be trained in CPR/first aid, and be trained how to asses the situation in a logical and calm manor.

I would respond to the train car and represent myself an optometrist who is trained as a first responder, not just by the generic "Doctor X." If you said, "I'm Dr. X," and leave it at that, it would be misleading. If you then help the victim you would be protected under the "Good Samaritan" law.

I do agree, that if an EMT was there also, let them take the lead. I would also argue that if a Psychiatrist was there the EMT should still take the lead. I am friends with a few nurses so I hope this does not come off as offensive, but I don't think any RN would be better to take charge over any OD. If the RN was an ER nurse, or in any other acute care setting, then YES...but if they were a nurse at an allergy clinic...NO.

My whole post is saying, as an OD you are trained in emergency situations to some extent, and you will be more qualified then most people, but know your limits...it is not as if you would know how to intubate.

Unless you want to (1) loose your license; (2) be liable for civil damages in the event your assistance went bad; and (3) possibly be charged with practicing medicine without a license and/or passing yourself off as a physician or nurse, you should never, ever try to render assistance. Wait for EMS. I'm a psychiatrist with IM training. Depending on what the injury was/is, no way would I intervene unless I was sure I could offer competent assistance without jeopardizing that person's life or worsening the situation (especially w/o adequate equipment).

There are good samaritan statutes that shield first responders from liability, but in this case, there is an element of fraud/misrepresentation and no judge or jury would shield an OD who deliberately/intentionally misled others in an exigent medical crisis to believe he/she was a physician or nurse. If the question is/was "Are there any doctors or nurses here to help this victim?", and you reply, "yes, I'm a doctor and I can help", you will have exceeded the intended purpose of the MFR samaritan statutes in most states and will thus be culpable if you cause any harm to the victim or exacerbate a pre-existing condition.

You could reply, "I'm an optometrist and I have some MFR training...maybe I can help, but I'm not a medical doctor!" Don't be arrogant and say "I'm a doctor!" and then quietly add "of optometry" under your breath. Semantics. Pharmacists, vets, psychologists, audios, EdDs, PhDs, JDs, etc., better shut up too...yeah, you're "doctors", but are you also qualified MFRs? Just be careful of what you get yourself into!

Sorry. Reality hurts.

 

[EyeBaller]

Unless you want to (1) loose your license; (2) be liable for civil damages in the event your assistance went bad; and (3) possibly be charged with practicing medicine without a license and/or passing yourself off as a physician or nurse, you should never, ever try to render assistance. Wait for EMS. I'm a psychiatrist with IM training. Depending on what the injury was/is, no way would I intervene unless I was sure I could offer competent assistance without jeopardizing that person's life or worsening the situation (especially w/o adequate equipment).

There are good samaritan statutes that shield first responders from liability, but in this case, there is an element of fraud/misrepresentation and no judge or jury would shield an OD who deliberately/intentionally misled others in an exigent medical crisis to believe he/she was a physician or nurse. If the question is/was "Are there any doctors or nurses here to help this victim?", and you reply, "yes, I'm a doctor and I can help", you will have exceeded the intended purpose of the MFR samaritan statutes in most states and will thus be culpable if you cause any harm to the victim or exacerbate a pre-existing condition.

You could reply, "I'm an optometrist and I have some MFR training...maybe I can help, but I'm not a medical doctor!" Don't be arrogant and say "I'm a doctor!" and then quietly add "of optometry" under your breath. Semantics. Pharmacists, vets, psychologists, audios, EdDs, PhDs, JDs, etc., better shut up too...yeah, you're "doctors", but are you also qualified MFRs? Just be careful of what you get yourself into!

Sorry. Reality hurts.

I'm not too sure I understand your post. rpames said basically what you did.. As an OD you should be more qualified than the average train passenger to deal with the situation. If an EMT or otherwise more qualified person is there, step back and know your limits. You would not lose your license for helping in an emergency unless you did something that wasn't in the best interests of the patient, or misrepresented yourself. That's what the good Samaritan laws were designed for.

 

[rpames]

It seems as if the trolls of this forum are not reading what we all have been saying. Every post I have given, and the post of others, have all said very, very, very clearly...Don't say you are a "doctor" with out qualifying that you are "just" an optometrist. We are all saying the same thing.

I guess the trolls just want to point out that none of us are real doctors.

 

[Richard_Hom]

The trolls have too much time on their hands raiding other forums for anything to post. I wonder why they need this forum and their posting to...?

 

[itek2OD]

bookmarked for later display.

 

[ProZackMI]

rpames It seems as if the trolls of this forum are not reading what we all have been saying. Every post I have given, and the post of others, have all said very, very, very clearly...Don't say you are a "doctor" with out qualifying that you are "just" an optometrist. We are all saying the same thing.

I guess the trolls just want to point out that none of us are real doctors.

Maybe I misread something as I skimmed only a few of the replies, but why must you assume I was making an attack on optometry? Perhaps your own feelings of insecurity are at play here rather than an attack by a non-OD troll? I read the OP's question and briefly skimmed the replies. As an attorney, I responded to what I felt is an appropriate answer to the student's question.

NO ONE, and I repeat, NO ONE said an OD shouldn't try to assess the situation or conduct a reasonable inquiry in the scenario posed by the OP. What I said was, be careful. If you hold yourself out as a "doctor", you are assuming the risk that others may detrimentally rely on your medical knowledge -- knowledge that you may not possess, and this detrimental reliance may cause an inference that you're an MD/DO, not an OD, PharmD, DVM, JD, EDD, etc.

This question was posed on the vet forum several months back. I cited a case in Ohio (I think it was in OH), where someone on an airplane had a seizure and the flight attendant asked if there was a "doctor" on board. A vet replied, "I'm a doctor and I can help!" and went over to the hapless tonic/clonic patient and tried to render assistance. In the process, he ended up causing more harm than good. I forgot exactly what he did, but I believe his "assistance" rendered the victim paraplegic (maybe quad?). At any rate, jurisdictional issues aside (i.e., they were in a plane and no one knew what state they were over at the exact time of the victim's injury), the court refused to allow the vet to use the good samaritan defense afforded by the statute because he intentionally allowed the flight crew to infer he was a medical doctor and despite his good intentions, his intervention caused more harm than if the the victim had her seizure without assistance.

Not only did the vet get sued for massive punitive and compensatory damages, but he was criminally charged with the unauthorized practice of medicine and the vet board of his state revoked his license.

If the vet had said, "i'm a vet, not a doctor...but I might be able to help!", who knows if his liability would have been cut off. If he had used common sense and realized he couldn't help her, he would have been okay.

No one is saying an OD is incompetent. If the injury in question were ocular in nature, you'd be fine; however, an OD without an MFR or EMT advanced training probably would be no more qualified to help a victim than the lawyer, teacher, or DJ.

Why? Okay, how many ODs carry a comprehensive medical bag with them? How many ODs retain their MFR knowledge from school? How many ODs are practiced in CPR, advanced first aid, delivering babies, stopping bleeding wounds, treating seizures, assessing spinal cord injuries, etc.? No one is saying you're inferior to MDs. How many gynecologists would know what to do if somone is having a stroke? How many OMDs would be able to respond to an MI or CVA? Some would, but how many are carrying the appropriate equipment or know exactly what to do? I'm an MD. If a woman were in labour, I don't think I'd be better qualified to help her than an OB PA or RN. I'm trained in psychiatry, not OB. Whatever OB I knew, I have forgotten over the years. Some knowledge is static, but in reality, if you don't use that type of knowledge and training much, after school, you lose it.

It's like a tax attorney trying to tackle a capital murder case. It would be a "grave" (excuse the pun) mistake to try to handle something outside your area of knowledge and competence.

So, my only point was...if you're an OD and you're ever faced with that type of crisis, be prudent, assess the situation and do what you can based on your comptence. Your medical knowledge in most cases would not be sufficient to render effective aid to a victim in need of serious medical help. Even if you did attend medical school, in most cases, your knowledge might not be helpful -- especially without the proper equipment. If there is something you can do, do it, but don't let others think you're a "doctor".

In most cases, EMS is not that far away and is always preferable than a novice first responder. In most cases, even police officers have more medical first responder training than your average dentist, optometrist, PT, pharmacist, etc. There are exceptions to the case. My good friend Dave is a dentist and an advanced EMT/volunteer firefighter. When he responds to a med emergency, he's acting as a paramedic, not as a DDS. The OD who is trained as a paramedic will be acting as a paramedic, not an OD in a med crisis.

If you hold yourself out as a physician, you may also be held to that standard of care in a civil court and you may be charged with the unauthorized practice of medicine in criminal court. The board of optometry may also view your "intervention" as being significant enough to yank your license. Of course, it depends on the facts.

Based on the OP, I was responding, not attacking. Don't accuse me of being a troll. Your comments say more about you than they do about me.

 

[Opii]

Maybe I misread something as I skimmed only a few of the replies, but why must you assume I was making an attack on optometry?

Because you have a long history of attacking optometry, that's why.

Don't accuse me of being a troll. Your comments say more about you than they do about me.

Your comments say alot about you too. Even your cat dosen't like you...
Bad kitty - behavioural question for vets (litterbox) (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=344397)

First of all in some jurisdictions, Good Samaritan laws only protect those that have had first aid training for health care practitioners and are certified by the American Heart Association, American Red Cross, American Safety and Health Institute or other health organization (ALL OPTOMETRISTS ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE AN ACTIVE CARD). Alot of us already have one before graduation. In other jurisdictions, any rescuer is protected from liability, granted the responder acted rationally. These laws are intended to reduce bystanders' hesitation to assist, for fear of being prosecuted for unintentional injury or wrongful death.

You might want to brush up on your behavioral skills especially with that poor cat of yours AND you JD skills.

Troll Warrior

 

[PBEA]

Prozac is not trying to be a troll he/she answered it in an honest and open fashion. Even if Prozac is biased (maybe/maybe not?), who the fudge cares if you can break out your little red cross card and proclaim your ability to "help". Trust me when I say you should all be studying ocular physiology or pharmacology, and stay the hell away from topics like treatment of acute and severe injuries. Thank you Prozac you took the time and wrote a sincere explanation. I know you have come a long way in trying to understand the "OD", but remember you are talking to hyperkinetic students most of the time on this forum so dont take it personally. Have a drink on me

 

[sco1styear]

I think that two things made people think of this post as being "trollish"...
#1 - it repeated everything already said in other posts - tolls seem to do this often for reasons I can only speculate...
#2 - the ending - "reality hurts" - I knew he probably wasn't trolling but that last little comment rubbed me wrong and made me not want to read anything else he posted. Why would the reality of this topic hurt? If I wanted to do emergency medicine, I would have gone to medical school. I didn't and now I'm doing what I've always dreamed of(and loving it), that's my reality and it doesn't hurt at all

 

[JeffChou]

Last edited by Opii : Today at 10:24 AM. Reason: added meanie face

Musn't forget the emoticons!

 

[Opii]

.... Pharmacists, vets, psychologists, audios, EdDs, PhDs, JDs, etc., better shut up too...yeah, you're "doctors".... Just be careful of what you get yourself into!

Sorry. Reality hurts.

This whole tone is an attempt at denegrating people here.
PBEA I don't see how you can support that.

I used to work at a busy optometrist's office and the optometrist averaged doing CPR once a year inside her own office. So brushing up on CPR between ocular physiology books doesn't hurt.

 

[Opii]

Musn't forget the emoticons!

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

This whole tone is an attempt at denegrating people here.
PBEA I don't see how you can support that.

I used to work at a busy optometrist's office and the optometrist averaged doing CPR once a year inside her own office. So brushing up on CPR between ocular physiology books doesn't hurt.

He was doing nothing of the sort. His point was, I think, this... unless you are trained in emergency medical management, don't say you're a doctor. What I think would be best in these situations would be to approach the scene and announce what you are trained to do (be it CPR or whatever). Leave the doctor part out of it.

 

[Opii]

.... Leave the doctor part out of it.

I agree with that.

 

[IndianaOD]

Most MDs have no idea how well and OD is trained. Half of them think its a 2 year associate degree or something. I guess if someone is choking or in need of CPR and you're not an EMT or ER doc you stand there at let them die. Why do so many people get CPR training. Is it worthless?

I'm not into turf wars and am not insecure. I was #1 in my pre-med class thank you.

The real scary thing is anyone but an OD or OMD treating red-eyes. I've seen what "care" people get from ERs, GPs, other MDs and NPs. Does one week of education make an eye expert? OMD residents are also scary. I'm sorry but I have worked side by side with some. I have great relationships with OMDs and many MD friends who do a fine job. There is way too much bickering out there.

 

[still_confused]

while prozack use to attack optometry, unlike other optometry haters, he did his research and has since then rescinded his view of optometrist as "glorified techs."

he has since contributed to discussion based on his new attorney viewpoint. While i dont think we have won him over, he is definetly not a troll and should be treated with respect.

People determing thier stances based on doing thier homework, its the best we can hope for!

 

[Opii]

Pharmacists, vets, psychologists, audios, EdDs, PhDs, JDs, etc., better shut up too...yeah, you're "doctors", but are you also qualified MFRs? Just be careful of what you get yourself into!

Sorry. Reality hurts.

I can't believe how some people in this forum are so gullible.
He tells all other "doctors" with (quotation marks) to "Shut up," and "Reality Hurts"... this is so condesending.... Perhaps the people in this forum that are honored by the presence of the "Real Doctor" deserve the respect you all are getting from him. If this is the logic, no wonder this profession is going down the toilet.

Has anyone considered showing respect to rpames who has had a consistant polite demeanor about himself? Zack was very disrepectful... and the facts are he doesn't have the Samaritan Laws straight in that strange head of his.

While some of you anxiously hope to win Zack over, my question is: Has he won ME over? The answer is NO.

Over and Out.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I can't believe how some people in this forum are so gullible.
He tells all other "doctors" with (quotation marks) to "Shut up," and "Reality Hurts"... this is so condesending.... Perhaps the people in this forum that are honored by the presence of the "Real Doctor" deserve the respect you all are getting from him. If this is the logic, no wonder this profession is going down the toilet.

Has anyone considered showing respect to rpames who has had a consistant polite demeanor about himself? Zack was very disrepectful... and the facts are he doesn't have the Samaritan Laws straight in that strange head of his.

While some of you anxiously hope to win Zack over, my question is: Has he won ME over? The answer is NO.

Over and Out.

That listing of doctors was to state who, in his legal opinion, could be sued similar to the vet on the airplane that he also posted. Yes, a PhD in physics does deserve to be called "doctor". But if same PhD comes to the scene of a medical emergency and declares themselves to be a doctor... well that's just asking to get sued. Good Samaritan doesn't protect them. Those laws only protect you when working within the scope of your training.

You my friend have a huge chip on your shoulder. Yes, Zack did originally come here with some fairly inflammatory remarks. He's gotten some better, its amazing what a little education can do to people's perceptions. In this case, he is offering his honest legal opinion. I'd listen to him if I were you, might save you some grief.

 

[POJO]

Unless Prozac... identifies himself/herself with his/her bar and medical license numbers, his/her opinion is just an opinion and we might not ever know that he/she is a qualified psychiatrist physician and attorney at the bar. His/her contribution might be correct, but the demeanor still does not show the sophistication or graciousness that someone with 11 years of post graduate education should have. Yes, you can correct someone. And yes you can pimp another like you would in rounds, but this student isn't one of his/her house officers or medical students nor is the student a defendant in one of his/her legal cases.

I would have thought that law school would have sharpened his/her writing skills a bit better.

 

[JeffChou]

I think ProZackMI's "reality hurts" was directed at rpames since his post was a reply to rpames' post (full quote and all). Perhaps that was remark was a bit misplaced. rpames gave no indication of wanting to play doctor and explicitly said that he/she and no one else should misrepresent themselves in an emergency situation.

Aside from that, the rest of ProZackMI's posts in this thread have been "power-struggle neutral." He/she clearly indicates his intent to explain and not offend. His/her post was not denigrating. ProZackMI only gave a roll call down the list of non-medical Doctorate degrees to illustrate a point about misrepresentation I think we all already agree with. He even added in Ed.D, Ph.D, and J.D. to be more neutral.

I suppose it's in my nature to be fun-loving and peaceful, but I really don't see any justified reason for e-hostility.

I've got mine!

 

[Opii]

.... I'd listen to him if I were you, might save you some grief.

Oh Alright then, if sombody is dying right in front of me, I'll just sit there and watch him die.
And if I'm asked why I didn't do anything about it, I can say because Zack told me so.

The fact is recent graduates of optometry are required to graduate with an active CPR certificate (and keep it active throughout your carrier, although some long time Optometrists forget to do so or don't know that is a new requirment). Why would that requirment be? Just to sit there and watch sombody choke to death?

My "friends" that doesn't make sense. To save myself "some grief" I can't afford to listen to the MDs (nor the undergrads for that matter) in this thread because you all don't know the extent of what is expected of us today.

 

[ProZackMI]

Wow, so much for mature discussion. Is this a forum for professional students, or is it a bunch of emo kids crying over some Bright Eyes or Fallout Boy song? No need to make any ad hominem attacks. Yes, in the past, I was critical over optometry's quest for expanded scope of practice. I, like many others, believed ODs were "glorified" techs. I have come to learn otherwise. I have a new found respect for optometry. I was NOT attacking anyONE or any profession.

The original poster posed a question about being an OD on the subway when someone asked if there were any doctors or nurses on board due to some medical emergency. The OP, I believe, wanted to know if he/she should try to help as an optometrist. I replied NOT as a physician, but as an attorney. I think we can all agree that an MD might have an opinion, but that opinion and a nickel won't buy you a piping hot cup of jack squat when it comes to answering the hypothetical question posed. However, an attorney who works in medical licensing and health care law might have a better idea about what to do and what not to do.

The question was opened to all, not just ODs, so I replied. I gave you an honest legal answer. From a purely moral standpoint, of course you, as a person with some medical training, should try to help, IF, and ONLY IF, somone else with medical first responder training is not able to do so. From a legal standpoint, anyone who offers assistance in a time of crisis, especially those with health care training, are shielded from general negligence liability if the vic is somehow injured further in the rescue attempt under basic Good Samaritan laws. HOWEVER, and this is what I was clearly saying, if you, as an OD (or any other person holding a doctorate) intentionally hold yourself out as a "doctor" (the quotation marks are emphasizing the ambiguity of this word and how it is perceived by the general public), you may induce others to incorrectly infer you are a physician, and if your assistance exacerbates the victim's condition, or somehow injures him/her differently, then you are no longer protected under samaritan laws as your act may be interpreted as wanton, willful, intentional, or even malicious.

I never said an MD is more qualified than an OD to render aid. In fact, I fully admitted that as an MD myself, I would not be qualified, nor would I feel comfortable rendering advanced medical aid to others absent special circumstances. I also stated, several times, that most MDs and DOs would fall into the same category as ODs -- specialists who have since forgotten basic MFR. We're not talking about a CPR card. We're talking about helping a victim who is suffering from an acute injury or significant medical crisis.

I stated, many times, it also depends on the nature and degree of the emergency. If you're a vet and someone in your waiting room is seriously cut, and EMS is a long ways away, of course the vet should do something to help. If you're an OD and the same thing happens in your office, of course you should act. If you're a pharmacist, vet, psychologist, lawyer, optometrist, audiologist, chiro, PHD in physics, teacher, beet picker, or mailman, and you come across an injured person and there is no one else around to help, of course you should try to help, but DO NOT sit there and say "I'm a doctor, I can help!!!" All I am saying is, if asked, say "I'm an optomertist and I can see what I can do to help, but I'm not a medical doctor." Why is this inflammatory? Why does this upset some of you? How is this in any way demeaning? Don't risk your license and eveything you worked hard for due to semantics and ego.

NO ONE is saying an OD is not a doctor. However, you all know that doctor typically means physician to the ordinary person. There are many types of doctors out there, but unfortunately, Joe Public thinks doctor means physician. Based on that erroneous perception, one who does not qualify or detrimentally causes another to rely on that confusion, can be asking for problems (criminal and civil).

CLARIFY, QUALIFY, AND THEN HELP. If it's something outside your realm of knowledge, wait for EMS. Unless you're out in some hinterland rural area, EMS is usually not that far away. Same with police help. Most police officers have enough MFR training to save a life and limb until EMS arrives on scene.

But thank you for saying my writing skills are piss poor, I'm an idiot, and I'm a liar. Thank you for using an unrelated post about my cat's inability to adapt to a new litterbox on the DVM forum as proof that I'm a troll! That fact alone was compelling and clearly and convincingly showed that I am truly a reprehensible person and deserve to be terminated. I was exceptionally impressed by that brilliant piece of syllogistic reasoning! I believe a few of you need to grow up and quit being so defensive. I never, ever said you're inferior to an MD. No one said you lack medical training. No one said an OD is not a doctorate. No one said anything deregatory. If you perceived that based on my comments, which I have re-read and left unedited, then I go back to my statement about that reflecting more on your, your individual issues of insecurity and power, and unresolved feelings of inadequacy.

I can understand why some people may view my remarks, which are honest and direct, as being abrasive and attacking, but they truly aren't. I am not flaming anyone. I was making an educated statement based on a hypothetical fact pattern. Lawyers do this all the time. Also, the fact that I don't disclose personal information about myself does not mean my credentials are bogus or puffed up. I'm a cautious and private person. Believe me, if I wanted to puff myself up, I would say I'm a cardiothoracic or neurosurgeon with an MD from Harvard or Hopkins, not a psychiatrist from MSU. I would say I received my JD from Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, not from MSU Law. I drive a Pontiac, wear Hollister,Tommy, and Nautica, not Gucci, Armani, or Brooks Brothers.

Best of luck in school and practice. I only wanted to help and make sure no one got into trouble or made an innocent attempt to help someone (a truly altruistic deed) into a legal crisis.

Peace,
Zack

 

[POJO]

ProZackMI,

Intentions are always evident in a post. Being direct is one thing. For example "...Unless you want to (1) loose your license; (2) be liable for civil damages in the event your assistance went bad; and (3) possibly be charged with practicing medicine without a license and/or passing yourself off as a physician or nurse, you should never, ever try to render assistance...

was never the intention of the original poster, yet this was the level of response. OK, we are sensitive, but that is because all non-optometrists always come with guns blazing. Let's turn the table.

You want to prescribe a medicine that you think you're totally capable. Only your hospital thinks that a lowly psychiatrist shouldn't being doing it. Do you think they would stick it to you? Hmmmm. Probably not the way you came across. They would probably treat the physician a bit more courteously no matter how stupid the other physician acted.

But thanks. We do appreciate being put in our place again. Now enough! Let's say the student got the full 3rd degree from optometrists and non optometrists.

 

[IndianaOD]

Zack, thanks for the reply. I appreciate your thoughts. You have to realize that much of the animosity ODs feel towards medicine is based on the constant and rediculous battle between ODs and OMDs. I recently saw a legislator verbally unload on an OMD at a hearing for their rediculous stance against Optometry. Totally unfounded and the OMD was embarassed. Personally I believe that Ophthalmologists should be residency trained ODs as in dental surgery. There is no bickering there.

Anyways to veer off topic I think you might be going through similar things with PhD and PsyD and Psychiatry. They want meds and are probably trained to do so. I just hope they don't loose their roots. Quite awhile back I had some anxiety issues and was referred to a psychiatrist. I saw him for 5 minutes after a nurse wrote the Rx. I have to admit, I later wished I had the option to go to a PsyD who could start me on a short term of meds then use CBT or something else. I really didn't like being on the Meds but thats all psychiatrists do to my experience. This is probably a misconception but seems true with other family members. I have very high respect for psychiatry and the training you go through, but I think another profession could have also benefitted me. Similar to optometry and ophthalmology. Several OMDs have admitted to me that they hardly remember anything from med-school. Knowing that wouldn't they be better off learning about the eye from the start along with the systemic education we recieve? Anyways I'm rambling now and I have absolutely no problem with other professionals lurking on this forum. I actually applaud you because it helps you learn about the other professions and how they can all work together for the publics best interests.

 

[ProZackMI]

Zack, thanks for the reply. I appreciate your thoughts. You have to realize that much of the animosity ODs feel towards medicine is based on the constant and rediculous battle between ODs and OMDs. I recently saw a legislator verbally unload on an OMD at a hearing for their rediculous stance against Optometry. Totally unfounded and the OMD was embarassed. Personally I believe that Ophthalmologists should be residency trained ODs as in dental surgery. There is no bickering there.

Anyways to veer off topic I think you might be going through similar things with PhD and PsyD and Psychiatry. They want meds and are probably trained to do so. I just hope they don't loose their roots. Quite awhile back I had some anxiety issues and was referred to a psychiatrist. I saw him for 5 minutes after a nurse wrote the Rx. I have to admit, I later wished I had the option to go to a PsyD who could start me on a short term of meds then use CBT or something else. I really didn't like being on the Meds but thats all psychiatrists do to my experience. This is probably a misconception but seems true with other family members. I have very high respect for psychiatry and the training you go through, but I think another profession could have also benefitted me. Similar to optometry and ophthalmology. Several OMDs have admitted to me that they hardly remember anything from med-school. Knowing that wouldn't they be better off learning about the eye from the start along with the systemic education we recieve? Anyways I'm rambling now and I have absolutely no problem with other professionals lurking on this forum. I actually applaud you because it helps you learn about the other professions and how they can all work together for the publics best interests.

Actually, the parallels between psychology and optometry are very strong. Psychologists, like optometrists, started as psychometrists, and measured intellectual acuity much like ODs measured visual acuity and VF and whatnot; they were not clinicians, but over time, evolved into a more clinical role. Same with ODs. Your roots were not in medicine, but evolved into medicine using the medical model. Psychology was the same way. With psycholpharmacological training at the post-doc level, many PhD/PsyDs are gaining RxPs in different states (LA, NM, and I believe HI?). This expansion has been greeted with much hostility by psychiatrists and physicians in general who scream and complain "But they haven't been to medical school!" The highly trained psychologists reply, "neither have NPs, ODs, and dentists...but they kill fewer people each year than MDs do!" And they are right!

With RxPs and med privileges, comes enhanced liability and responsibility. No doubt about that. However, just because you have training to do X does not mean you should do X without fully knowing what you are doing. As an MD, there are things I can do, but won't due to incompetence.

Having said that, I agree with your assessment of psychiatry. I went into medicine with trepidation, but once I started med school, I finished. I went through an IM/Psych residency and once I got into psych, I stayed. I hate to say it, but you're right...most of what I did was med reviews and cursory PEs. No critical medical stuff, mostly med evals and adjustments to be honest.

This is one of the reasons I went through more schooling for my law degree and suffered through that. I hope you have gotten over some of your anxiety issues. Cognitive behavioural therapy is a great way to see the irrationality of your fears/anxieties and seems to be really effective with well educated people like yourself. Good luck and thanks for the feedback.

Zack

 

[Opii]

Actually, the parallels between psychology and optometry are very strong. Psychologists, like optometrists, started as psychometrists, and measured intellectual acuity much like ODs measured visual acuity and VF and whatnot; they were not clinicians, but over time, evolved into a more clinical role. Same with ODs. Your roots were not in medicine, but evolved into medicine using the medical model. Psychology was the same way. With psycholpharmacological training at the post-doc level, many PhD/PsyDs are gaining RxPs in different states (LA, NM, and I believe HI?). This expansion has been greeted with much hostility by psychiatrists and physicians in general who scream and complain "But they haven't been to medical school!" The highly trained psychologists reply, "neither have NPs, ODs, and dentists...but they kill fewer people each year than MDs do!" And they are right!

With RxPs and med privileges, comes enhanced liability and responsibility. No doubt about that. However, just because you have training to do X does not mean you should do X without fully knowing what you are doing. As an MD, there are things I can do, but won't due to incompetence.

Having said that, I agree with your assessment of psychiatry. I went into medicine with trepidation, but once I started med school, I finished. I went through an IM/Psych residency and once I got into psych, I stayed. I hate to say it, but you're right...most of what I did was med reviews and cursory PEs. No critical medical stuff, mostly med evals and adjustments to be honest.

This is one of the reasons I went through more schooling for my law degree and suffered through that. I hope you have gotten over some of your anxiety issues. Cognitive behavioural therapy is a great way to see the irrationality of your fears/anxieties and seems to be really effective with well educated people like yourself. Good luck and thanks for the feedback.

Zack

Maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt after all. I used to really respect psychiatrists or anything related to Neurology until I read all your "hate" in last year's ramblings against Optometrists. Maybe you're learning.

And about Kitty (it was too funny, I had to share...) ...
If you "observe humans for a living," you might try it on animals too, the two are much more similar in "behavior" than one would think...

 

[ProZackMI]

Maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt after all. I used to really respect psychiatrists or anything related to Neurology until I read all your "hate" in last year's ramblings against Optometrists. Maybe you're learning.

And about Kitty (it was too funny, I had to share...) ...
If you "observe humans for a living," you might try it on animals too, the two are much more similar in "behavior" than one would think...

Perhaps, but I have yet to see a patient pinch a loaf on his loved one's bed because of a new toilet. However, I fixed the problem by simply moving a spare litterbox on the guest bed. For now, problem solved. I still wish she'd use the Littermaid box I paid 150 bucks for, though. Meh.