VA Mental Health Provider Venting / Problem-solving / Peer Support Thread

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I've heard of looksmaxxing, and obviously have heard of Tate and his ilk, but didn't know there'd been that much of a swing in overt misogyny in younger men.
From what I've read, the majority of Gen-Z and Gen-Alpha are left-left, not just left-leaning, but there are a minority of young males who gravitate towards the Manosphere. Some are black-pillers and others claim they want Trad Wives, but women won't give them the time of day.
 
From what I've read, the majority of Gen-Z and Gen-Alpha are left-left, not just left-leaning, but there are a minority of young males who gravitate towards the Manosphere. Some are black-pillers and others claim they want Trad Wives, but women won't give them the time of day.

And a portion of those become violent incels.
 
Unfortunately, this is becoming a larger societal concern. I work in peds and it's getting worse over here too. Pop Science article to further elaborate:
When people become more and more isolated and the economic conditions start being less and less favorable, people retreat inward and start looking for someone to blame. I'm not saying it's OK or appropriate. But this is a signal we're losing young men and it's going to and already has had large consequences on our society.
 
Yes, but that is a symptom not a cause. You don't fall into that hole if you are happy and successful in all areas.

I don't 100% agree, the more you run into stuff like that the more it can seem like it's normal. And they sort of do the "boiling frog" thing where they start off reasonable and then get more and more deranged.

The King of the Hill revival actually has a great episode about this.
 
I think the algorithm is delaying a lot of these young men being exposed to better, more effective ways of finding jobs, partners, etc. For example, back in the "olden days" of the PUAs, young men would go out and try these new (but dumb) techniques to approach women. The crucial aspect was the actual approach. By interacting with people in real life who could offer real-time feedback, they gradually became less awkward.

This current version of learning extreme masculine roles and values doesn't really have an off-ramp. It's designed to keep men heavily engaged in ineffective strategies. I keep seeing attempts at counter movements, but very little is as appealing as hearing any personal issues are actually someone else's fault.
 
Veteran today said he has been frustrated with long wait times for specialist appointments but is glad our president is doing everything he can to fix this, especially for rural communities...
If by "fix it," he means cut funding and privatize care (at likely to be poor rates) to community providers with equal backlogs who also can fire patients, then yep.
 
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I don't 100% agree, the more you run into stuff like that the more it can seem like it's normal. And they sort of do the "boiling frog" thing where they start off reasonable and then get more and more deranged.

The King of the Hill revival actually has a great episode about this.

That may be true. My thinking is that the content has to resonate with you in some way first. Now, some may be it does by focusing on some societal issues that are universal. However, my guess is that those folks that fall deep into the manosphere had issues that went unaddressed before the content. I have listened to some of that stuff and never went off the deep end.
 
If by "fix it," he means cut funding and privatize care (at likely to be poor rates) to community providers with equal backlogs who also can fire patients, then yep.

Equal backlogs? I'm in a region that probably has better access than most of the US, and our specialist wait times are usually months more than what Vets can get in the VA. Add in only being able to access specialists who will take their insurance and it's even longer.
 
Is anyone else noticing recent VA job postings for “intermittent” psychologist and psychiatrist positions? The summary states “ This position is intermittent, which means there are no set hours or days scheduled on a regular basis.”

Uhhh…what?
 
Is anyone else noticing recent VA job postings for “intermittent” psychologist and psychiatrist positions? The summary states “ This position is intermittent, which means there are no set hours or days scheduled on a regular basis.”

Uhhh…what?

Cannot say that I have seen that. Why would that not be called per diem?
 
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Cannot say that I have seen thag. Why would that not be called per diem?

That’s what it sounds like. With how short-staffed MH is right now, I cannot imagine VA utilizing any additional psychologists or psychiatrists anything less than FT. This seems like a work-around of the recently instituted employee “caps.”
 
I had a lot of non-white patients express interest in joining ICE, which was baffling to me.

Getting a first row seat to ICE's disregard of constitutional rights, it was a good mix of ethnicity and gender in the going out of their way to assault and pepper spray civilians who had the audacity to film them from 50 feet away.
 
This current version of learning extreme masculine roles and values doesn't really have an off-ramp. It's designed to keep men heavily engaged in ineffective strategies. I keep seeing attempts at counter movements, but very little is as appealing as hearing any personal issues are actually someone else's fault.
Grifters need to keep growing their flocks to leach off of, so they are disinclined to provide actual help, but they have plenty of gasoline to throw on other fires!
 
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My favorite trainings involve a person just competently going over their materials via powerpoint slides. I don't want to be involved. I don't want actors or animations. Just...talk at me for an hour.

Spoken like someone who didn't get to see the VA trainings that were set in a Western theme. Those were epic.
 
Spoken like someone who didn't get to see the VA trainings that were set in a Western theme. Those were epic.
I must've completely blocked those from memory. The only ones I can think of right now are the birthday cake debacle (inappropriate gifts) and the therapist who apparently likes to start her sessions by saying how much she enjoys talking about different types of IEDs in group.
 
I must've completely blocked those from memory. The only ones I can think of right now are the birthday cake debacle (inappropriate gifts) and the therapist who apparently likes to start her sessions by saying how much she enjoys talking about different types of IEDs in group.

I remember seeing these at least in one of my orientations, definitely in 2011. Our cohort made parodies of it.
 
I must've completely blocked those from memory. The only ones I can think of right now are the birthday cake debacle (inappropriate gifts) and the therapist who apparently likes to start her sessions by saying how much she enjoys talking about different types of IEDs in group.

Yeah, apparently her groups always run over because of that. Maybe it's a psychoeducational group about IEDs. I'd like to think it's called "IEDs 101."
 
An oldie VA MH complaint but a goodie: Two calls and a letter was bad enough! Three calls and a letter for NSes is ridiculous.
And if they STILL don't respond, you should go all "Game of Thrones" on them and 'send a raven.'

Whatever you do, never cease in your efforts to track down a reluctant to engage client to the ends of the Earth and stalk them into recovery.

Doing The Lord's Work, lol.

Out of 8 initial VVC intake/orientation appointments the last couple days, ONE was in the VVC room at appointment start time. ONE.

This place kills me.
 
Spoken like someone who didn't get to see the VA trainings that were set in a Western theme. Those were epic.
The most memorable "academic" movie I've seen as part of training was a 70s documentary from researchers studying orgasms in my human sexuality class. It was just...a lot. Of everything.
 
And if they STILL don't respond, you should go all "Game of Thrones" on them and 'send a raven.'

Whatever you do, never cease in your efforts to track down a reluctant to engage client to the ends of the Earth and stalk them into recovery.

Doing The Lord's Work, lol.

Out of 8 initial VVC intake/orientation appointments the last couple days, ONE was in the VVC room at appointment start time. ONE.

This place kills me.
What's interesting about this is it's possible all these attempts might actually put the patient off instead of help get them into wanting to actively participate in treatment. And we know it creates a behavioral pattern of no accountability for them.
 
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What's interesting about this is it's possible all these attempts might actually put the patient off instead of help get them into wanting to actively participate in treatment. And we know it creates a behavioral pattern of no accountability for them.
100%. The motivational interviewing theory/literature explicitly warns against doing such things because it creates 'psychological reactance.'
It's also basic common sense and the reason that most people understand that telemarketers who cold call them don't really have a 'great deal' to offer them.
 
It's always an interesting experience when I get someone in my office for a consult who clearly has dementia. Like, not in control of their finances, unable to drive themselves, and can't live alone dementia.
 
It's always an interesting experience when I get someone in my office for a consult who clearly has dementia. Like, not in control of their finances, unable to drive themselves, and can't live alone dementia.

One of the reasons we require a screener and the score before scheduling. I don't need to waste a testing spot for someone with a legitimate MoCA in very low teens or single digits.
 
The most memorable "academic" movie I've seen as part of training was a 70s documentary from researchers studying orgasms in my human sexuality class. It was just...a lot. Of everything.
I think I may have seen this too or something similar. Many years ago in masters program (before decided to go back for doctorate), we had a class on sexuality and the professor had these 60s/70s era "educational" videos of various couples engaged in various sexual acts Rumor was that multiple students complained over the years and the school (which was run by a religious order of nuns ) , he was an adjunct, told him he could keep working there if he cut out the videos or leave. His counter argument the story goes was that it WAS educational because it helped decrease one's discomfort and thus "innoculated" students to all the different things that may come up when working with patients.
 
One of the reasons we require a screener and the score before scheduling. I don't need to waste a testing spot for someone with a legitimate MoCA in very low teens or single digits.
Yeah, there is a line in our consult that we can't see folks with dementia in MHC. That stops most of them. With the new RCI process, more weird stuff lands here. Fiduciary removals, FMLA paperwork with no prior hx, etc. All these efforts to make us more efficient don't seem to be helping much.
 
Yeah, there is a line in our consult that we can't see folks with dementia in MHC. That stops most of them. With the new RCI process, more weird stuff lands here. Fiduciary removals, FMLA paperwork with no prior hx, etc. All these efforts to make us more efficient don't seem to be helping much.

Was this an MHC or testing consult? Sounds like you are turning into a convenient dump site for complex cases. Way too much of my life already...and then the productivity police roll around...
 
Yeah, there is a line in our consult that we can't see folks with dementia in MHC. That stops most of them. With the new RCI process, more weird stuff lands here. Fiduciary removals, FMLA paperwork with no prior hx, etc. All these efforts to make us more efficient don't seem to be helping much.
That's because a coherent system of triaging referrals doesn't seem to exist and with less people everyone is just trying to get through each day. In all of these efforts at efficiency they ignore or more possibly don't care that the issues are systemic and not at an individual level. But that won't stop them from driving the few that keep going into the ground.
 
That's because a coherent system of triaging referrals doesn't seem to exist and with less people everyone is just trying to get through each day. In all of these efforts at efficiency they ignore or more possibly don't care that the issues are systemic and not at an individual level. But that won't stop them from driving the few that keep going into the ground.

Idk, our triage system does a great job. But I'm sure that's because we have some fantastic individuals doing that work.
 
Idk, our triage system does a great job. But I'm sure that's because we have some fantastic individuals doing that work.
We had a great system. Leadership wanted to streamline things and made a huge mess instead. The consults land faster, but they're often in the wrong place. We have one person in our clinic who keeps the consults getting through from being too wild. If they're ever out of the office, RCI wreaks havoc.

Our immediate leadership is encouraging us to "give good customer service," which means seeing anyone who makes it to our office even if it's inappropriate.
 
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Was this an MHC or testing consult? Sounds like you are turning into a convenient dump site for complex cases. Way too much of my life already...and then the productivity police roll around...
It's MHC. Our hospital is small enough that all the mental health clinics are dumping grounds. I have seen PCMHI get the most random stuff. They're also drowning over there, so I'm okay taking things on. I have gotten really efficient with getting people off my caseload if they don't have any goals and they're not actually interested in doing traditional therapy. With the really weird stuff, I hold them for a couple of sessions just to make sure they get to the right place. It has been an interesting time.
 
We had a great system. Leadership wanted to streamline things and made a huge mess instead. The consults land faster, but they're often in the wrong place. We have one person in our clinic who keeps the consults getting through from being too wild. If thei're ever out of the office, RCI wreaks havoc.

Our immediate leadership is encouraging us to "give good customer service," which means seeing anyone who makes it to our office even if it's inappropriate.
If there's one thing I've learned about the VA, there is no good process or strategy that someone from leadership won't come in and "improve." Ours also has the same idea, that getting someone in quickly supersedes any other indication. But I know they also are indebted to numbers on "access" from who knows who.
 
Was this an MHC or testing consult? Sounds like you are turning into a convenient dump site for complex cases. Way too much of my life already...and then the productivity police roll around...
"Dump site for complex cases." This definitely happens in VA mental health settings in the chaos of no leadership and the ubiquitous availability of hitting the consult button as a 'solution' to patients nobody wants to treat or manage. LOL. The most VA thing ever.
 
Applying for jobs within the VA is so random. I haven't even gotten to the interview process and they wanted me to explain why my name doesn't match my transcript and why there is not a "degree conferred" line on my transcript. I am literally working as a psychologist right now. I have had three background checks within the VA. I know none of the systems talk to each other, but it's so inefficient. I was compliant until they started asking for things that would cost money.

Taking a picture of the degree hanging on the wall in my VA office and along with my postdoc certificate received from the place I'm applying to didn't count. I applied to the same location a few weeks ago and received zero pushback.
 
I had supervision with a student who didn’t like behavioral and cognitive therapies because it doesn’t get to the “root” of things like…you guessed it…trauma. I asked him to explain what is the “root”of trauma and how you can treat something that happened months, years, or decades ago. He didn’t have an answer but I think I got him to agree that we can only treat the consequences of trauma like specific thoughts and behaviors that are a product of learning. Slowly I got him to admit that changing how you think about yourself and the world can be a “root cause” treatment and eventually I even got him to admit that doing things you’re afraid of doing or thought you couldn’t do or handle was another great way to change how you think about yourself and the world that was once heavily influenced by their trauma.

I’m so tired of students, established professionals, etc just not having a basic understanding of the clinical application of cognitive, behavioral, learning and social science. Or even how to articulate a treatment plan for something like PTSD, let alone identify what maintains most psychiatric problems in the long run. It’s all woo woo stuff about “depth” and going “deep” and “exploring” but there is no real substance to their approach, nothing to ground these poor patients that are unmoored. I feel like 2/3 of all Our students and licensed psychologists are like this smh. This year was rough, I’m not sure I want to supervise anymore but it kills me that if I leave then that’s one less person who isn’t teaching “keep your patient forever therapy and never expect anything to change for you or them” therapy.
 
I had supervision with a student who didn’t like behavioral and cognitive therapies because it doesn’t get to the “root” of things like…you guessed it…trauma. I asked him to explain what is the “root”of trauma and how you can treat something that happened months, years, or decades ago. He didn’t have an answer but I think I got him to agree that we can only treat the consequences of trauma like specific thoughts and behaviors that are a product of learning. Slowly I got him to admit that changing how you think about yourself and the world can be a “root cause” treatment and eventually I even got him to admit that doing things you’re afraid of doing or thought you couldn’t do or handle was another great way to change how you think about yourself and the world that was once heavily influenced by their trauma.

I’m so tired of students, established professionals, etc just not having a basic understanding of the clinical application of cognitive, behavioral, learning and social science. Or even how to articulate a treatment plan for something like PTSD, let alone identify what maintains most psychiatric problems in the long run. It’s all woo woo stuff about “depth” and going “deep” and “exploring” but there is no real substance to their approach, nothing to ground these poor patients that are unmoored. I feel like 2/3 of all Our students and licensed psychologists are like this smh. This year was rough, I’m not sure I want to supervise anymore but it kills me that if I leave then that’s one less person who isn’t teaching “keep your patient forever therapy and never expect anything to change for you or them” therapy.
It isn't the whole story but I have, over my decades in psychology, noticed that there appears to be a direct correlation between what you're describing (attraction to the 'woo woo') and lack of competence/knowledge + Cluster B type personality traits (especially Narcissistic and/or Histrionic traits).

I have also found that it is pretty damn futile to attempt to engage these types (once they get their degree/license) in any serious conversations aimed at influencing them toward the mainstream scientist-practitioner perspective.

Hopefully, you may be able to positively influence a student/intern, though, if you can catch them after these types have tried to 'wow' them with their confidence and showmanship.
 
I had supervision with a student who didn’t like behavioral and cognitive therapies because it doesn’t get to the “root” of things like…you guessed it…trauma. I asked him to explain what is the “root”of trauma and how you can treat something that happened months, years, or decades ago. He didn’t have an answer but I think I got him to agree that we can only treat the consequences of trauma like specific thoughts and behaviors that are a product of learning. Slowly I got him to admit that changing how you think about yourself and the world can be a “root cause” treatment and eventually I even got him to admit that doing things you’re afraid of doing or thought you couldn’t do or handle was another great way to change how you think about yourself and the world that was once heavily influenced by their trauma.

I’m so tired of students, established professionals, etc just not having a basic understanding of the clinical application of cognitive, behavioral, learning and social science. Or even how to articulate a treatment plan for something like PTSD, let alone identify what maintains most psychiatric problems in the long run. It’s all woo woo stuff about “depth” and going “deep” and “exploring” but there is no real substance to their approach, nothing to ground these poor patients that are unmoored. I feel like 2/3 of all Our students and licensed psychologists are like this smh. This year was rough, I’m not sure I want to supervise anymore but it kills me that if I leave then that’s one less person who isn’t teaching “keep your patient forever therapy and never expect anything to change for you or them” therapy.
Behavioral and cognitive therapy does go directly at the root of the problem. Classical conditioning, learning, and the fear response are some of the most basic aspects of our science. There is no magical way to treat it other than exposure. People naturally want to avoid that, as that is an adaptive aspect of the fear response to avoid scary things, but avoidance can increase the response so by intentionally exposing in a careful and systematic way we decrease the response. As far as the cognitive therapy part, I tend to think that it is most effective when it is done with some thinking. I would even argue that the ability to think about our difficult and come up with rational strategies to address them might even be a good goal for all humans.

Anyone who is criticizing from the stance of behaviorism and CBT is not helpful for x, y, and z doesn’t even realize that it is the core of all that we do. This is coming from someone who conceptually is a psychodynamic and object relations kind of guy which interestingly enough doesn’t have to be separated from or replace basic science.
 
Behavioral and cognitive therapy does go directly at the root of the problem. Classical conditioning, learning, and the fear response are some of the most basic aspects of our science. There is no magical way to treat it other than exposure. People naturally want to avoid that, as that is an adaptive aspect of the fear response to avoid scary things, but avoidance can increase the response so by intentionally exposing in a careful and systematic way we decrease the response. As far as the cognitive therapy part, I tend to think that it is most effective when it is done with some thinking. I would even argue that the ability to think about our difficult and come up with rational strategies to address them might even be a good goal for all humans.

Anyone who is criticizing from the stance of behaviorism and CBT is not helpful for x, y, and z doesn’t even realize that it is the core of all that we do. This is coming from someone who conceptually is a psychodynamic and object relations kind of guy which interestingly enough doesn’t have to be separated from or replace basic science.
Agreed.

And all competent Cognitive Therapy and CBT practitioners are supposed to collaborate with the client to develop an individualized cognitive-behavioral case formulation with varying levels of generality of 'problematic patterns of thinking' including the automatic thought (surface, event-specific) level, the intermediate belief (rules/attitudes/assumptoms) level and the core belief or schema level.

It doesn't really get much 'deeper' than a schema (core belief) of 'I'm unlovable' or 'I'm incompetent.'

Of course, a comprehensive biopsychosocial case formulation takes in a lot of types of data for consideration including biological variables, developmental variables, hell, even an existential perspective/ variables at times.

But calling CBT, on its face, 'not 'deep' enough' as an approach is really betraying one's ignorance about the approach to begin with. And the older books/ articles on cognitive therapy and CBT were a helluva lot more 'theory rich' than most recent approaches and the field has come to over-represent manualized approaches to courses of therapy and worksheets and under-emphasize flexibility, individualized case formulation, the primacy of the working relationship, collaboration, etc. to the detriment of the entire field. There is some recent push-back against the 'protocol-for-syndrome' approach, but I don't see it being appreciated by most practitioners, currently.
 
Agreed.

And all competent Cognitive Therapy and CBT practitioners are supposed to collaborate with the client to develop an individualized cognitive-behavioral case formulation with varying levels of generality of 'problematic patterns of thinking' including the automatic thought (surface, event-specific) level, the intermediate belief (rules/attitudes/assumptoms) level and the core belief or schema level.

It doesn't really get much 'deeper' than a schema (core belief) of 'I'm unlovable' or 'I'm incompetent.'

Of course, a comprehensive biopsychosocial case formulation takes in a lot of types of data for consideration including biological variables, developmental variables, hell, even an existential perspective/ variables at times.

But calling CBT, on its face, 'not 'deep' enough' as an approach is really betraying one's ignorance about the approach to begin with. And the older books/ articles on cognitive therapy and CBT were a helluva lot more 'theory rich' than most recent approaches and the field has come to over-represent manualized approaches to courses of therapy and worksheets and under-emphasize flexibility, individualized case formulation, the primacy of the working relationship, collaboration, etc. to the detriment of the entire field. There is some recent push-back against the 'protocol-for-syndrome' approach, but I don't see it being appreciated by most practitioners, currently.
As someone who just went through 20 hours of a state/Magellan required training to implement a manualized approach to care coordination I can see why there is a problem. It isn’t CBT or even structured treatments. It’s mind numbing bureaucracy that is implementing lowest common denominator strategies that demean and devalue our entire field.

…and I don’t even work at the VA. It’s just Monday morning and I tend to start the week with a negative outlook. 😜
 
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