California SMP

Are there any SMP's in southern California that are only 1 year? If so which ones? Also does it have any direct affliations with meds school in the surrounding areas?

thanks a bunch.

Mr_Doc said:

Are there any SMP's in southern California that are only 1 year? If so which ones? Also does it have any direct affliations with meds school in the surrounding areas?

thanks a bunch.

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There aren't any in California unless you're an under-represented minority. If you are an URM's, several of the UC's have a program.

hmm well im indian (Hindu) but i dont that think is considered URM.

Mr_Doc said:

hmm well im indian (Hindu) but i dont that think is considered URM.

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Nope. Definitely not for medical school anyway. 🙂

tacrum43 said:

There aren't any in California unless you're an under-represented minority. If you are an URM's, several of the UC's have a program.

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This is incorrect. There are no SMPs in CA. They are only post-bacc programs. All UC's that have a med school have a structured post-bacc program which allow students to take undergraduate courses. Some may have MCAT prep and pre-med advisory programs coupled to the academic component as well. UCSF's program is combined with SF State. You take classes at SF State like any other undergrad, and then get pre-med advising and academic oversight through UCSF. UCD, UCI, UCLA, and UCSD provide classes through their campus. The commonality among all these programs is hte fact that you take undergrad classes, not med school or graduate level classes. Conversely SMPs, by definition is a masters program which has you taking classe with med students (e.g., Georgetown).

However I do agree that most if not all of the UC's are selective in terms of ones background. They don't neccessarily prefer URM's though, but prefer applicants who are from socio- or economically challenged backgrounds as defined by AAMC.

Unofficially, I'm sure you can do a masters and take med school courses in a similar fashion as an SMP. However it does not come with the noteriety of doing an SMP at say Georgetown. Most likely the sister UC med schools will recognize that you took these med school classes and that may help. However such "traditional" graduate programs have other requirements such as your degree-requirements which will minimize the time you have to focus on elective courses. To answer the OP's final question, if you take any of these SMPs, or do any post-baccs--aslong as you do well in them, it can only help you at ANY school. However doing UCSF's post-bacc program does not improve your chances of getting into UCSF in terms of preference.

Check out the one year SMP at the Keck School of Medicine of USC called the Master of Science in Global Medicine Program: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=861168

MSGM said:

Check out the one year SMP at the Keck School of Medicine of USC called the Master of Science in Global Medicine Program: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=861168

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Almost a 5yr old thread...

MSGM said:

Check out the one year SMP at the Keck School of Medicine of USC called the Master of Science in Global Medicine Program: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=861168

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I suggest that you should review the legitimate SMPs that have been discussed in this forum for the last 10 years, compare your program, and decide whether that's what you're after.

Is MSGM a program that exists for the sole purpose of getting low-GPA med school candidates into US MD schools?

Can you compete with Tulane ACP, which puts 90%+ of its program's grads directly into Tulane med school, no gap year?

Can you compete with EVMS and Cincinnati, which put 70 to 85% of their programs' grads directly into US MD schools, dominated by the program host med school, no gap year?

When your program puts low-GPA students into USC or UCs, then the responsible old-timers around here will be delighted to call it an SMP, and recommend it. Until then, you might as well be Barry - a terminal masters that has no linkage with a med school and promises promises promises.

Let us know when you're ready to make a claim about getting low-GPA students straight into US MD schools with USC and UC results highlighted. Stop posting until then. This isn't an advertising forum.

DrMidlife said:

I suggest that you should review the legitimate SMPs that have been discussed in this forum for the last 10 years, compare your program, and decide whether that's what you're after.

Is MSGM a program that exists for the sole purpose of getting low-GPA med school candidates into US MD schools?

Can you compete with Tulane ACP, which puts 90%+ of its program's grads directly into Tulane med school, no gap year?

Can you compete with EVMS and Cincinnati, which put 70 to 85% of their programs' grads directly into US MD schools, dominated by the program host med school, no gap year?

When your program puts low-GPA students into USC or UCs, then the responsible old-timers around here will be delighted to call it an SMP, and recommend it. Until then, you might as well be Barry - a terminal masters that has no linkage with a med school and promises promises promises.

Let us know when you're ready to make a claim about getting low-GPA students straight into US MD schools with USC and UC results highlighted. Stop posting until then. This isn't an advertising forum.

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I've spoken to admissions at several SMPs, now, as well as in person with another (Keck Graduate Institute), concerning the nature of the Student Doctor Network as it relates to their willingness to have a presence here, insofar as it relates to outreach, answering questions, etc.

Georgetown claimed that SDN has crazy people on it, Keck thought that there are loose cannons here, and others refuse to post here because of the types of reactions that they imagine they'll get because of inflammatory posts like this jewel from Dr. Midlife.

Ironically enough, through my own research, I've found out what the benefits of the USC MGM program are for California applicants, and I've done so by emailing the USC MGM program, talking to admissions reps at California medical schools (UC Davis, UC Irvine), and also through correspondence with current, and former USC MGM students. I even went so far as to have a friend (an MD that attended Georgetown's SMP, who is writing me a letter of rec) review USC's MGM program curriculum, so as to comment on the worthiness of their SMPness, so to speak.

And, I responded to Dr. Midlife in another USC MGM related thread concerning the nature of California low GPA applicants trying to go through the USC MGM program to gain admission to UC medical schools, where I said the following:

MDforMee said:

Well said.

I might be one of the California residents you're alluding to in your post, since I'm trying to get into a UC medical school, and may be attending the USC MS in Global Health program.

However, I contacted one of the program advisers for the USC MS in Global Health program concerning its similarity to a "true" SMP, and received this reply:

"I do want to mention that, while many of our students have successfully
matriculated into medical school, we emphasize the importance of your
passion for Global Medicine before applying for this program. This program
is highly specialized in Global Medicine and is not like the special
master's programs like Georgetown because of this."

Personally, I'm in a tight spot because I get free tuition at all public California universities, medical school included, and attending a UC medical school could potentially save me hundreds of thousands of dollars.

So, I might be forced into taking a gamble on an SMP solely to increase my chances at gaining acceptance to a UC medical school. In that way, I'm probably an ideal candidate for your comments, above, Dr. Midlife.

My GPA is a 3.7 since 2006, but I had some scuffs on my record before that due to extenuating circumstances that brought my cumulative GPA down to around a 3.4.

In all other respects, I believe that I'm a good candidate for medical school, and you can judge that for yourself if you want to look at my mdapps. My MCAT score should be over 30, and I'll get my score in the next few weeks.

Maybe I should be a guinea pig for the USC MS in Global Health program? lol

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Interestingly enough, after this post from Dr. Midlife that I quoted in the beginning of this thread, she goes on to state on 9/12/12 at http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13058033&postcount=6

DrMidlife said:

IMHO the USC program could become a great option, easy to recommend, if we start seeing a large number of 3.0-3.4 California residents get into UC's from there. That would make USC a reasonable alternative to Gtown, Boston, EVMS, Cincinnati, Loyola et al, which is where the vast hordes of low GPA Californians are now forced to go. We need to start seeing contributions on SDN from people who got into UCs, despite a low GPA, after doing the USC program, for any excitement to get generated. Whether the USC program makes any sense for a non-Californian is yet to be determined.

Basically we need USC to do for California what Mississippi College does for MS/AL/LA.

Best of luck to you.

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As you might have put together, by now, I'd like to see USC's MGM representative not get the wrong impression of SDN, and not be scared off by Dr. Midlife. I've called Dr. Midlife out a few times on her less than amicable behavior, since I believe it doesn't promote the right type of environment, here, as you can see here:

MDforMee said:

Your tone is negative, and you assume that your own research mandates that others should follow your lead.

If you acted a wee bit more friendly toward people, you'd be doing a service to this board, instead of developing hostile working relationships with people.

Best of luck to you.

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I think that Dr. Midlife and USC MGM should join forces, with me as their toadie, to help get the word out on this program, in my esteemed opinion. I'm enough of an embittered jerk, myself, to ward off other jerks, and if we all put this together, we could potentially help out a lot of Californians that get stuck in this quagmire of being forced to go back East for SMPs.

As of now, this program at USC has the ability to outcompete the SMPs back East that are currently flooded by California residents like me. Further, when the reputation of the USC MGM grows, so too will its renown with UC admissions committees.

Here's some bait: the UC Davis admissions coordinator, Ed Dadang, whom I know personally, albeit not as much as I'd like, had the wrong impression about the USC MGM program.

He didn't know that there are hard science options in it, more or less, that are on par with what we see back East at Tufts, BU, Georgetown, etc.

Like I said, I'm willing to be a guinea pig. I'd really not rather pack up my stuff and drive 3000 miles to the bitter cold of Boston or Philadelphia, so let's get down and dirty. Come at me, bro.

MDforMee said:

Come at me, bro.

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I think we have our new post-bac forum resident toolbag. Excellent

robflanker said:

I think we have our new post-bac forum resident toolbag. Excellent

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How is it that you can make posts like this regarding California students and the California SMP situation,

robflanker said:

Cali doesn't have many SMPs to begin with and fewer vetted established ones.
A lot of Cali kids come east to Georgetown (a friend who finished up there and is now in med school with me said about 50% of his class was from cali)

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and not see the larger point of what it is that I'm trying to do in this thread?

Is it false to assume that private California universities stand to make millions by filling unused seats in their medical schools with otherwise qualified low GPA California residents?

If you look at class size trends for USC's program, it's grown substantially. I want you to think about that for a minute.

If trends continue, which, rest assured, they will, we're going to have thousands of grads from USC's MGM program trying to make their way into the UC system. The admissions dean I know has already seen them. I didn't even have to say much for him to know that I was talking about the USC MGM program, the other day, when I called. All I said was SMP + California, since I was trying to be intentionally vague to shake down some info out of him.

The way I see it, Dr. Midlife torpedoed the best chance that California students have for contact with a new SMP here on SDN, as it relates to the larger issue of poor in state options for California residents. Sure, California residents may be accepted out of state, but we should have in state public options that save us 100's of thousands of dollars on tuition. The system in California (public) isn't serving the state properly, here. "Inequity" doesn't come close to describing it.

Further, and possibly most damaging of all, the USC MGM program will miss feedback from us regarding their ability to structure a program that competes with the hard science SMPs back East. That's my opinion. I already emailed them about tailoring a mostly science courseload in their program, and they didn't seem too keen on it. If they knew what I know, I suspect that they'd encourage more sciences and relatively few global medicine classes. Feedback from this place would help them develop their curriculum. People like the dean of admissions at UCD SOM wouldn't have been telling me that the USC MGM program is soft on the sciences, and not as accurate of a predictor of med school success as the SMPs back East. Think about it.

I think that you need someone like me, as much as you don't like me calling out the postbac honcho Dr. Midlife for scaring away school administrations.

MDforMee said:

How is it that you can make posts like this regarding California students and the California SMP situation,


and not see the larger point of what it is that I'm trying to do in this thread?

Is it false to assume that private California universities stand to make millions by filling unused seats in their medical schools with otherwise qualified low GPA California residents?

If you look at class size trends for USC's program, it's grown substantially. I want you to think about that for a minute.

If trends continue, which, rest assured, they will, we're going to have thousands of grads from USC's MGM program trying to make their way into the UC system. The admissions dean I know has already seen them. I didn't even have to say much for him to know that I was talking about the USC MGM program, the other day, when I called. All I said was SMP + California, since I was trying to be intentionally vague to shake down some info out of him.

The way I see it, Dr. Midlife torpedoed the best chance that California students have for contact with a new SMP here on SDN, as it relates to the larger issue of poor in state options for California residents. Sure, California residents may be accepted out of state, but we should have in state public options that save us 100's of thousands of dollars on tuition. The system in California (public) isn't serving the state properly, here. "Inequity" doesn't come close to describing it.

Further, and possibly most damaging of all, the USC MGM program will miss feedback from us regarding their ability to structure a program that competes with the hard science SMPs back East. That's my opinion. I already emailed them about tailoring a mostly science courseload in their program, and they didn't seem too keen on it. If they knew what I know, I suspect that they'd encourage more sciences and relatively few global medicine classes. Feedback from this place would help them develop their curriculum. People like the dean of admissions at UCD SOM wouldn't have been telling me that the USC MGM program is soft on the sciences, and not as accurate of a predictor of med school success as the SMPs back East. Think about it.

I think that you need someone like me, as much as you don't like me calling out the postbac honcho Dr. Midlife for scaring away school administrations.

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I think your view on how much SDN affects people's decisions are a little skewed. Admissions know how mis-representative online forums and sites can be, and thus they do not regard them with much grain of salt. It isn't the job of admissions to know every school's curriculum unless they have a potential student with which they want to find out more about.

If people are steered away from programs because of random comments by people who haven't even gone through the program nor haven't done their own research, they obviously were not very interested in the program in the first place. All in all, you are making grandiose statements without factoring in other implications. Or you're just butt-hurt because Dr. Midlife got under your skin.

chayo234 said:

I think your view on how much SDN affects people's decisions are a little skewed. Admissions know how mis-representative online forums and sites can be, and thus they do not regard them with much grain of salt. It isn't the job of admissions to know every school's curriculum unless they have a potential student with which they want to find out more about.

If people are steered away from programs because of random comments by people who haven't even gone through the program nor haven't done their own research, they obviously were not very interested in the program in the first place. All in all, you are making grandiose statements without factoring in other implications. Or you're just butt-hurt because Dr. Midlife got under your skin.

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This is a premedical forum, and it's rare to have an admissions representative come here to discuss their program.

When Dr. Midlife tells an admissions rep to stop posting here, accuses them of advertising, and condescends, she's taking it upon herself to speak not only on behalf of SDN, but on behalf of other SDN members. She's making quite a few assumptions on behalf of herself to make the allegations that she did. What she said can even be construed as libel.

Attorneys, or a dictionary, will tell you that "libel" is:

"libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation a negative or inferior image."

This junk that Dr. Midlife posted to the USC rep DOES NOT BELONG ON SDN.

I, for one, WILL SPEAK UP when I see that type of behavior, here.

As a California applicant, I'm trying to do everything that I can to make the correct decision as far as postbaccalaureate programs (SMPs) go, and welcome the presence of a new, California SMP on this board.

You can call it whatever you want, but I call it progress towards opening the airwaves of communication between students and admissions. We all have a common goal, and this isn't the 80's. We should be respectfully using the internet to discuss all of this.

If you have anything important to say about this topic, please add to it. If not, be my guest, but I won't respond to you. I know that I'd appreciate it, and others would, too, if you stay on topic within this thread and not swerve it towards something else. Thanks.

lol "libel". At most Dr. Midlife's post was tough questioning, and as SMP shoppers, anybody reading this thread should welcome it. I for one would welcome USC as a GPA-repair program if they were to publish success rates and complete alumni results. After all, if I'm carrying a 3.0GPA and looking for a program to plop down $50+k and work my ass off, I'd want to know that the majority of people in my position who went through the program had succeeded in the past. A reasonable expectation.

The bigger problem than a perceived lack of SMP programs in California is the sheer number of qualified premeds; the state produces enough high-stat students to fill all its medical schools three times over. No amount of GPA repair will reliably overcome this sheer competition; sure there are always a few who get in, but if you think there will ever be a pipeline where a large majority of SMP grads get into a UC medical school without a gap year, you're not being realistic.

QQm said:

I for one would welcome USC as a GPA-repair program if they were to publish success rates and complete alumni results. After all, if I'm carrying a 3.0GPA and looking for a program to plop down $50+k and work my ass off, I'd want to know that the majority of people in my position who went through the program had succeeded in the past. A reasonable expectation.

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I hear that.

QQm said:

The bigger problem than a perceived lack of SMP programs in California is the sheer number of qualified premeds; the state produces enough high-stat students to fill all its medical schools three times over. No amount of GPA repair will reliably overcome this sheer competition; sure there are always a few who get in, but if you think there will ever be a pipeline where a large majority of SMP grads get into a UC medical school without a gap year, you're not being realistic.

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I hear that, too.

The problem with what Dr. Midlife said to the admissions rep of the USC MGM is this:
there will never be a guaranteed pipeline to the UC medical schools. There isn't even a decent percentage of California SMP grads from the big programs like Georgetown, Tufts, and Boston, getting back into UC medical schools.

Sure, we'd like it if there was a pathway to the UCs through a California SMP, but that's magical thinking.

The USC higher ups know this. They probably didn't spend too long in Arnold's Schwarzenegger's think tank coming up with their plan for differentiating their Global Medicine program from "true" SMPs for this very reason.

My 2 cents is this: USC intentionally avoided calling their program a "Special Masters Program" since there will never be a guaranteed pipeline to the UC medical schools, and there are already established SMPs elsewhere. They tried to counter this by making their degree useful in some way, and by offering the track system, where there are clinical, management, certificate, and international physician tracks.

Do you think that USC would deliberately make it clear to prospective students that their program is not like the SMPs back East for any other reason than program appeal, and revenue? Like it or not, USC is for profit.

What we need them here on SDN for, however, is to get feedback from students like us. Who's to say that they wouldn't eventually create a separate "track" that ostensibly labels itself as a "premedical" track? USC admissions reps presence on this forum isn't just coincidental. They didn't decide to up and join a random forum, and start talking about their program. No, they came HERE. They came to THE place of places for Special Masters Programs that has students on it trying to get into medical school. They know what we're up to, here, and they're trying to get some of us into their program for the expressed purpose of getting into medical school, whether they care to phrase it that way, or not. Therefore, OUR goals are THEIR goals, and since we have the same goals, there is a motive for THEM to offer the type of program to US that WE want.

The market demand dictates the market.

I believe that if USC structured its Global Medicine program correctly, that it could out-compete the SMPs back East for UC admissions, while still allowing its alumni to compete on the same level as the SMPs back East for admissions to out of state schools. USC should be aiming for a slight margin of better probability for UC admissions, and equal out of state admissions, as compared to Tufts, Georgetown, Boston, etc. The problem is what I said, before; UC admissions reps think that the USC program is soft on science. That's why I'm posting all of this. I hope that USC is reading it.

the UC Davis admissions coordinator, Ed Dadang, whom I know personally, albeit not as much as I'd like, had the wrong impression about the USC MGM program.

He didn't know that there are hard science options in it...

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Personally, I wouldn't spend the big bucks to attend USC's master's program if the med schools up the road have the "wrong impression of it..."

As of now, this program at USC has the ability to outcompete the SMPs back East that are currently flooded by California residents like me. Further, when the reputation of the USC MGM grows, so too will its renown with UC admissions committees.

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Perhaps so, but in which year/decade? In time for your apps to UC?

Big Dog said:

Personally, I wouldn't spend the big bucks to attend USC's master's program if the med schools up the road have the "wrong impression of it..."
Perhaps so, but in which year/decade? In time for your apps to UC?

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I've tried telling myself that going to USC's program will work, but the more I think about it, the more I think you're right, unless USC can label one of their tracks as an SMP track, or something like it.

I think that I've just been scratching my head over why USC would create a program like this, that has a lot of potential, but label it as a global program; it has classes with the med students, and a lot of science options, but won't hold its own against Georgetown, Boston University, Tufts, etc. So, why did they create it, and name it the way that they did? They're not fooling anybody by requiring an MCAT of 28 to get in. That's the same cutoff that they use back East, and it's higher than all of the DO school entrance averages in the country.

Maybe USC just doesn't feel comfortable in dealing with low GPA medical school applicants?

There doesn't seem like enough of an incentive to attend the USC MGM for non medical school application purposes, IMO. That's where my conspiracy theories come in... Their deal now does just enough to let them get their foot in the door, and test the waters, which may be what they wanted all along.

USC really is our only option here in California for an SMP. They'll never make an SMP at a public California medical school in a thousand years, and the only other private school in this state with a medical school that isn't black/hispanic only or religious only is Stanford. Stanford is an ivy league school, and they don't want anything to do with academic renewal or low GPA people. That's just a faux pas. Like I said, maybe USC doesn't want to be branded with academic enhancement?

Then, out of nowhere, the USC admissions rep shows up here, but gets chased off my Dr. Midlife. Whatever. I'll make an anonymous call to the USC MGM with my program suggestions, and what little insider info I have. Maybe I'll even pretend to be Dr. Midlife when I do.

I suppose that I'll apply to all the SMP programs, to make sure I get in, somewhere, but in the off chance that I'm accepted nowhere, I wonder if going to USC's MGM program would be worth the $? There's a guy on here with similar stats to me that got a 4.0 in the USC program, and didn't get any allopathic acceptances, as far as I know. He doesn't have free tuition at the UCs like I do, so he might not have as much of an incentive as I do to get into a UC for med school, but still, a 4.0 in the USC program and no allopathic acceptances...

If nothing changes, by this Spring when I apply to all the SMPs, I'll do this: I know where Arnold Schwarzenegger lives in Brentwood, and I mountain bike through his back yard all the time. I'm serious. I'll just yell over the fence the next time I'm over there, "Hey, you want to put your donor $ to work? Get this SMP deal straightened out with the USC MGM. They're wheezin' my gig."

I'm pretty sure sure schools promote their school at fairs and SDN to get spots filled (for tuition dollars) with the best applicants possible. If they're interested in helping the current and future students of the program, they should promote the strengths of their program and their students to adcoms, as well.

I think that I've just been scratching my head over why USC would create a program like this, that has a lot of potential, but label it as a global program; it has classes with the med students, and a lot of science options, but won't hold its own against Georgetown, Boston University, Tufts, etc. So, why did they create it, and name it the way that they did?

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You answered your own question earlier: it's all about the money! (And branding.)

These types of grad programs are huge money makers, since all are full pay students. Moreover, USC has been particularly effective in recruiting internationals to their undergrad and other grad programs, and this new program may be attractive to them. But regardless, there are thousands of premeds in California who need gpa-enhancers, and since UC only offers ad hoc classes through its extension program, USC's program does fill a need instate.

fwiw: I think Dr. Midlife is one of the more valuable posters on SDN. She s/he maybe a little harsh at times, but a lot of gpa-enhancers need a kick in the butt to see reality.


Just my $0.02.

victoriah said:

Precisely, Big Dog. I have disagreed with some of Dr. Mid life's views, even quite recently, but she stimulates a lot of useful discussion here. I think holding a grudge for days like this says more about MDformee.

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California needs an SMP, and one at USC would do amazing things for California residents. If you hadn't made the connection between the California situation and my tiff with Dr. Midlife, you've got bigger things to worry about than forum behavior.

In other news, here in the adult world, my university is hosting a grad school event on Halloween, and USC's MGM reps will be there.

I'll post what I find out about their program, on here, for others to see.

Since the lines of communication with USC's MGM and us here on SDN have been irreparably damaged, thanks to Dr. Midlife, if any of you have any questions you'd like to ask the USC MGM program directors, I'd be happy to ask them, for you. Just send me a PM or post in this thread.

California needs an SMP..

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Personally, I think California needs more med schools. But your opinion is just as good as mine.

The issue with a true SMP, is that it has to be attached to a med school, and the choices are two: USC and Loma Linda. (Stanford would never do an SMP because it would lower their brand. The UCs won't do an SMP because it doesn't meet what they consider their mission.)

And clearly USC has purposefully chosen to not offer an SMP. They have plenty of really smart folks on campus, and I'm sure it was a consideration, and was discarded.

Since the lines of communication with USC's MGM and us here on SDN have been irreparably damaged, thanks to Dr. Midlife...

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Do you really believe that an adult college rep would be scared off by an anonymous poster on an anonymous forum? Seriously? (As Harry T used to say, 'if you can't stand the heat...')

Drexel's IMS program is also available in Sacramento. The class size is much smaller - around 15-25 students. The program is the exact same as the one in Philly.

It doesn't have a link to a Med school in the area which was probably what you were looking for, but I think there are plans with Sac Kaiser for possible rotations in year 3-4 if you wanted to get back into the area.

tomz1385 said:

Drexel's IMS program is also available in Sacramento. The class size is much smaller - around 15-25 students. The program is the exact same as the one in Philly.

It doesn't have a link to a Med school in the area which was probably what you were looking for, but I think there are plans with Sac Kaiser for possible rotations in year 3-4 if you wanted to get back into the area.

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Interesting. I talked to an admissions rep from Drexel last week. The admissions dean of UC Davis SOM mentioned Drexel, too. I'm also from Sacramento, where this program is located. It's a really nice little spot that they've got in the Western part of downtown.

To hear the Drexel rep tell it, about 1/2 get into an allopathic school, 1/2 get into osteopathic schools, several leave after the program starts, and the rest come back for a second year to do a masters. Tuition is about 25 grand.

Approximately 25 seats are reserved in the Drexel College of Medicine for all Drexel masters program graduates, but there are quite a few different masters programs that they have. Still, that's a good number.

Thanks for the info about placement into the Kaiser Sacramento system. I've been to Kaiser Roseville (suburb) quite a bit; lots of people I know work there, and it's a great hospital system.

Lots of pluses for this program; it's been around for a long time (over 20 years), is specifically for med school entrance, is known, is in a great area, 20k less than lots of other programs, and has somewhat of a linkage. The negatives are that it doesn't have the best grad resume, and all the lectures are basically pod casted (which may be a good thing, depending on how you look at it).

The Sac Kaiser that will probably be involved will be the one in Elk Grove.

There are 25 seats that are guaranteed, but it will probably go up higher once they get to their wait list. I think there have been as many as 35+ in previous years from what I've heard.

The lectures are all recorded, so you can watch them at 2x speed (huge plus). You watch them at your own pace and time, so you won't be tired. I think a majority of med students don't even attend lectures (lots of empty seats). You'll attend labs and video conferences when you have cases though. It is typically the course director that you will video conference with. And since you are a smaller program (20 students or so), they'll probably remember you. My friend asked one of our physio professors to write him an additional letter of rec (usually we have 1 letter writer assigned from Sacramento). She also asked to video conference with him to interview him to get to know him a bit better. Even if you aren't in physical contact with the professors, you still have as much access to them as someone in Philly.

I think your success will be defined by what you put in. If you do well in the program it can really help you, depending on what weaknesses you have in your app. However if you do poorly, like any SMP, it will hurt your chances. The Drexel SMP has as much semester hours as any of the other rigorous programs, so you need to work hard and make sure you clear your calendar for 7 months.

Also, there will probably be an online information session this Friday - Dr. Tamse from the Sac program probably has more information on the specifics if you wanted to know more, but I'm guessing you can probably find everything on this forum if you browsed through the posts.

Another positive is the staff at Drexel-Sac - they are all very helpful and friendly!

MDforMee:

since you are local, check out the archives of the SacBee re: Drexel. I seem to remember an article in the WSJ that indicated that Drexel's foray into NorCal is not going too well, and they were considering scaling it back. How/if that affects their local SMP, I dunno, but worth researching.

tomz1385 said:

The Sac Kaiser that will probably be involved will be the one in Elk Grove.

There are 25 seats that are guaranteed, but it will probably go up higher once they get to their wait list. I think there have been as many as 35+ in previous years from what I've heard.

The lectures are all recorded, so you can watch them at 2x speed (huge plus). You watch them at your own pace and time, so you won't be tired. I think a majority of med students don't even attend lectures (lots of empty seats). You'll attend labs and video conferences when you have cases though. It is typically the course director that you will video conference with. And since you are a smaller program (20 students or so), they'll probably remember you. My friend asked one of our physio professors to write him an additional letter of rec (usually we have 1 letter writer assigned from Sacramento). She also asked to video conference with him to interview him to get to know him a bit better. Even if you aren't in physical contact with the professors, you still have as much access to them as someone in Philly.

I think your success will be defined by what you put in. If you do well in the program it can really help you, depending on what weaknesses you have in your app. However if you do poorly, like any SMP, it will hurt your chances. The Drexel SMP has as much semester hours as any of the other rigorous programs, so you need to work hard and make sure you clear your calendar for 7 months.

Also, there will probably be an online information session this Friday - Dr. Tamse from the Sac program probably has more information on the specifics if you wanted to know more, but I'm guessing you can probably find everything on this forum if you browsed through the posts.

Another positive is the staff at Drexel-Sac - they are all very helpful and friendly!

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Thanks for the info. I appreciate it. I'm from Elk Grove, originally. I went to Elk Grove high, etc etc. That's a pretty big incentive for me.

There's also a new medical school being built in Elk Grove. It's an MD granting, for profit, research university called California Northstate University, that should be accepting its first class to start in Fall of 2014. I don't know how far along in the application process you are, but maybe this will help you. They seem to have an emphasis on admitting people with ties to the area.

I've spoken with them a few times, now, about how it is that I can be part of their inaugural class; I told them about the USC MGM program, since their dean, Robert Suskind, has a lot of international experience, and I figured that going to USC's Global Medicine program might help. He doesn't talk to prospective students, though, unfortunately. Still, I think I need a more strict SMP than the USC MGM program. Drexel may become my first choice. Anyhow...

Check out the Cal Northstate College of Medicine website, here: http://cnucom.org/

Thanks again for the info on Drexel. I'll be talking to them shortly.

Big Dog said:

Personally, I think California needs more med schools. But your opinion is just as good as mine.

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It's funny that we're all complaining about lack of SMPs and medical schools in California, when 4 schools of medicine plan to open in the same year. Not too surprising. Anyhow, they scrapped the Scripps Research Institute School of Medicine, but the others are going ahead as planned; except, Cal Northstate is seeking accreditation, still, and won't be applying for it until next year, to start in 2014.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States#Developing_medical_schools
California University of California, Merced School of Medicine[53] Merced MD 2013 California University of California, Riverside School of Medicine[54] Riverside MD 2013 California The Scripps Research Institute School of Medicine La Jolla MD 2013[55] California California Northstate University College of Medicine[56] Elk Grove MD 2013

Ah same here, I went to Elk Grove High and Sheldon High. My parents still live in the area, so I lived with them during the IMS year. Though it might have been easier to live close by the school so I could just roll out of bed and go to the exams instead of driving in traffic in the mornings.

I did hear about the new MD school, but hopefully I'll get into a school this year.

I'll be helping with the information session on Friday, so I'll be around if you want to ask anything else.

Regarding the Sac-Drexel - they have recently had a lot of international students from China join the program. I'm not sure on their finances or their budget problems (if they have any?). I know the IMS class has actually gotten larger though. 10 more students compared to the previous year. However the IMS budget is part of the philly program's budget and I don't think it has anything to do with the Sac-Drexel Budget. I'm not entirely sure though... We just stay in our rooms and study all year!

tomz1385 said:

Ah same here, I went to Elk Grove High and Sheldon High. My parents still live in the area, so I lived with them during the IMS year. Though it might have been easier to live close by the school so I could just roll out of bed and go to the exams instead of driving in traffic in the mornings.

I did hear about the new MD school, but hopefully I'll get into a school this year.

I'll be helping with the information session on Friday, so I'll be around if you want to ask anything else.

Regarding the Sac-Drexel - they have recently had a lot of international students from China join the program. I'm not sure on their finances or their budget problems (if they have any?). I know the IMS class has actually gotten larger though. 10 more students compared to the previous year. However the IMS budget is part of the philly program's budget and I don't think it has anything to do with the Sac-Drexel Budget. I'm not entirely sure though... We just stay in our rooms and study all year!

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Hey there, Elk Grovian. Small world.

I used to make the commute from Elk Grove to Sac City college, and going north on 99 in the morning was a pain. That seems like a long time ago, now.

It just sounds too good to be true, in a way, that Drexel has the IMS program in Sacramento. If they accept me, which I hope they do, they can probably put my name on a seat in the program and not worry about me going somewhere back East. I don't know about you, but I love California weather, and don't think I'd get along well with humidity, half as much sunshine as we get here, and freezing cold.

But, I have a few questions about the program, mainly about the difficulty of its classes, and what's involved with their classes; I see quite a bit of biochem on the program website, and after going through the a biochem BS down here at UCLA, I'm hoping that I can apply a lot of what I know already to medical biochemistry. I can also choose some electives in upper division sciences, this year, and want to prep for the SMP. Some questions like that.

Speaking of biochem, I'm doing central metabolic pathways, atm, but will PM you in a bit, after I get some studying in. Thanks again for the info.

Some of you may -- or may not -- want to hear this, but after speaking with the Dean of Admissions at UCD SOM, he shed some light on the Drexel IMS Sacramento program in terms of how established it is.

He said that it's not an established SMP, meaning, it doesn't have a roster of successful matriculants to UCD SOM. He said that the other SMPs back East, such as Georgetown, Tufts, and BU have had successful matriculants to UCD and other UCs, and that those are probably better for me. He said that it's not impossible to attend the Drexel IMS Sacramento SMP, and then get into UCD SOM, but that it hasn't happened yet with other applicants (and there have been quite a few, apparently), and their reputation among their, and other med schools, isn't what it could be, or should be, perhaps.

You can read into that all you want, but the admissions dean knows my situation (GPA, MCAT, EC's), and this may not apply for everyone. He also said that I should be aiming for >3.75 in the SMPs back East for favorable consideration.

Further, I also spoke with another admissions rep from the Keck Graduate Institute, concerning whether they'll be setting up a masters program as an addendum to their postbaccalaureate premedical certificate program; he said that they have created a masters program that is capable of being completed over the glide year, as opposed to their more traditional biotech masters that would probably take most people more than the glide year to complete. Still, this isn't a true SMP, yet, and the program is still in its infancy, and the UCD SOM Dean of Admissions hadn't heard of it, either.

If the Claremont Colleges became involved in creating a true SMP, through the Keck Graduate Institute, and didn't gear it towards bio-industry, as they've been doing, then perhaps that may be the only feasible SMP option on the table in California, given that the Drexel IMS Sacramento's is an extension school, even though it's capable of some good things, and USC is apparently set on masquerading as an International program that targets SMP applicants, possibly to avoid being associated with academic repair, or for some other vague, and nebulous reason.

If it helps anyone reading this, I hope that it does.

While the Sac IMS program is new, it still has the exact curriculum and exams that the Philly IMS program has. We even take it at the same time (so we west coasters have to get there earlier).

During the two years of the Sac program, every student that I have talked with that has done very well and have taken all the classes have gotten into MD schools by the MMS year. Maybe they don't get into their first choice schools, but that was because some of us come into the program with our biggest weakness being undergraduate grades. Most of the students that got into MD programs got into Drexel, but some have gotten into other programs as well. Maybe when applying to certain programs, some schools don't overlook it because they might not want to damage their stats.

In a previous post, I have noted that my undergrad adviser telling me some adcoms consider a 3.5+ for an SMP very good for MD applications. That doesn't mean it will help you with every school, other stats influence the decision as well. Even if you weren't in the high range for grades, I think almost every student got into a DO program if they had a 3.0, even some with less. Regardless, I'm sure both sets of students will do very well when they take the USMLE after having been exposed to everything and having an extra year to learn it.

In terms of preparedness for med school there isn't any way to prove it though, unless we just happen to take a bunch of USMLE scores vs SMP gpa and compare statistics or something.

I have a <3.1 ugpa and I have two MD interviews right now after doing the first year of the program. I wasn't a part of the elite 3.75+ students, but I did fairly well. In fact the difference between the higher letter grades might not be more than a few questions for some courses, so if I got a few more problems in some courses, I probably would have been there. My fault for missing some easy gimmes. The letters of rec that are written do explain the grading scales and curves, so it will help programs make a decision.

I don't have a top-tier MCAT score either, I have a 30. I have plenty of shadowing experience, research and volunteer experience. I don't know if I'll be accepted, but the program put me in a better position than what I would have been in.

He said that the other SMPs back East, such as Georgetown, Tufts, and BU have had successful matriculants to UCD and other UCs, and that those are probably better for me.

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Isn't that exactly what Dr. Midlife tried to tell you many posts ago? 😉

Big Dog said:

Isn't that exactly what Dr. Midlife tried to tell you many posts ago? 😉

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Yup but said it in a really mean and hurtful way, and MDforMee was very sad....

But yes, after a week of huffing and puffing and saying we are all wrong; MDforMee has realized the info was accurate. Oh well

You two little monkeys.

Before I respond, I just want to say that I'll be listening to this song while typing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVjITlgqlHo

Anyhow, there's been a lot of good that's come out of this week's worth of research. Since you're both following my progress with all of this, you might want to know that I've been speaking to other Californians having near mirror image stats to mine, who have attended and been successful at the big SMPs back East, and also at USC's MGM, that unsurprisingly, have all been unsuccessful in getting into allopathic schools, let alone allopathic schools in California.

Check this out:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoroforever
That 70-80% includes US MD, DO and Caribbean MD and have confirmed this with multiple people at BU. You're right, there are no SMPs programs out there that guarantee their students get into medical school. However, it's just unfortunate because there are a good amount of us that come out of the program with no good lead on what to do.

I graduated from UCLA (bio). I took the MCAT before the program, and once more after the first year of BU MAMS. My most recent score was 10s across. I volunteered at a hospital all 4 years throughout college, I am published and have plenty of non-clinical experiences. I completed 25 applications. I wouldn't say I was a super early applicant (complete at most schools mid August) but BU is not rolling so it doesn't really matter. I know someone with the same GPA and a 32 MCAT who has also did not interview at BU so it's just a scary situation in my opinion.

There are HUGE rewards if you do extremely well and have that winning MCAT but for those of us on the border who don't want to do DO and are from California, it's a very tough situation. Ultimately, its a personal decision but I just ask you all do your research into every school before making a choice because there are schools out there that have much higher linkage rates than BU.

MDforMee said:

Heya there zorro, I'm at UCLA now, finishing a biochem degree with a 3.4-3.5 (only at UCLA) by the time I'm done, with a 30R MCAT. A lot like you.

I appreciate your post, but now face a big decision on what to do next. It's disheartening to see someone like you, with a good GPA and MCAT, plus exemplary performance in a tough SMP, not get anywhere with allopathic schools. It seems like the writing is on the wall, to me.

And, I've thought about going to Boston University and doing the MAMS, then, during the second year, getting into the MBS dual degree program. Or, going to Tufts, and doing basically the same thing.

I've thought to myself, "How could any medical school in the country not want someone that has a MA/MBS, a biochem degree from UCLA, and a decent MCAT, tons of ECs and clinical experience, and as handsome as me?" Apparently, not many allopathic medical schools do.

So, I'm considering going to one of the linkage schools, like Rosalind Franklin, or East Virginia Medical School...

... or, sucking it up and becoming a DO. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but we all know that MD residencies are being limited to MDs, due to recent AMA stuff. That's my primary reason for not considering the DO option.

I'm posting this because I'm hoping that some other Californians with stats similar to ours will post, here, and possibly explain why they've been willing to take the gamble that they did with Boston University's MAMS program.

All I know is that attending an SMP without a decent linkage to its affiliated medical school is more of a gamble for Californians without a homestate advantage, and it seems like most SMPs are FULL of Californians like us. IMO, I think that we should create a sticky for Californians showing a risk vs reward chart of some kind, and a listing of best possible choices, to make things easier. There is too much at stake for us to dive into 70 thousand dollars worth of debt and no guarantees of acceptance to gamble on programs like this. I don't want to be 2 years older in basically the same place I'm at now, with a pretty decent shot at getting into a decent DO program at Western, AZCOM, or wherever else, with the baggage of student loans following me around.

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This is just one conversation I've had. I've been finding all sorts of California students just like this poor shmoe that went back East from a UC with a 3.4 and a 30 MCAT that didn't get jack. Point being, the East Coast SMP route is a gamble.

As you might suspect, since I'm usually up to something, and trying to make progress with this in my off time, as usual, my plan is to start compiling my research as it relates to Californians and the dismal SMP situation/lack of home state advantage that we have, similar to one of the stickied threads in this forum. I'll turn it into a choose your own adventure type of a post, with success percentages from actual students at each juncture. I think that would help other people, here.

This really doesn't have much to do with Dr. Midlife at all, either. I don't know why people here keep bringing her up, but rest assured, I'm not getting emotional about her. Someone as negative as her probably needs help, and I've tried to help her several times now, by stating that she contributes here, but does it in a very poor interpersonal fashion. I'm not sure what she's expecting as far as friendships and acquaintances go, on here, but she's doing it wrong.

Here's a start at my preference list, in order:

1. SMP with linkage -- 40 grand, 1 year. Rosalind Franklin, EVMS, or maybe U of Cincinnati. No U of Toledo or NYMC thanks, but no thanks.
Pros: I get an MD after my name. Not much else.
Cons: Eastern Virginia. Cincinatti. Bumville. North Chicago might be alright. Might. These programs aren't guaranteed.

2. USC MGM. Apply DO beforehand, and MD at the end of the program. 40 grand, 1-2 years.
Pros: It's California, and "USC" does have a ring to it.
Cons: Global Medicine? Really? That sounds great, and I'd love to help, but I need to get into medical school first, guys. Don't scoff at me for wanting to take all your science electives. No one really knows if this is a real SMP, or not.

3. Tufts University MBS/MBA, or Boston University MAMS/MBA -- 60 grand, 2 years.
Pros: The degree is worth something, and might justify the extra time and money involved. It's Boston. Tufts is a good name, as is Boston University. Known programs.
Cons: It's Boston, and it ain't cheap. There are no guarantees, no linkages, and plenty of failure stories from California students that did well in these programs having 3.4/30's from University of California undergrads that didn't get any allopathic acceptances.

3. Tied for 3rd place is Drexel IMS Sacramento -- 30 grand, 2 years.
Pros: I'm from Sacramento, and it's cheap.
Cons: Some admissions reps think that video casting sucks. Others think the drexel name doesn't carry much weight.

4. Georgetown -- 45 grand, 2 years.
Pros: The name, program history, etc. It can get you into medical school... but who knows which one?
Cons: Just about everything else. It's a gamble, and it's the most expensive of them all. Did I mention that it's a gamble? The degree is worthless.


Anyhow, you might also be surprised that there are new trends in DO schools here in California, with higher then ever MCAT scores, and entrants (20-25%) having master's degrees. If you haven't put it together, yet, these new students causing a rise in average MCAT scores having masters degrees are, guess who? People that went through SMPs that are now at schools like Touro COM, California. I think that Touro has a masters program itself, too, and it's probably feeding into that pool, as well.

Here are the stats from Touro's newest class:

• The Average MCAT score for the Class of 2016 is 29.5, which is the highest average MCAT score in the history of the college.
• 23 students from the Class of 2016 earned a Master's degree or higher prior to matriculation.

I haven't been sitting on my hands, here. I've got other things in the works, too, that I don't want to talk about, just yet. But, let's just say that I'm getting up early tomorrow to talk to someone back East.

MDforMee,

Have you thought of Loyola's MAMS?

By the way, I wonder how many of those people with a high MCAT entering as a DO actually wanted to become MD? I'm sort of in that position. I wonder if, after the initial thrill of getting a DO medical acceptance would die down, would I have any feelings of regret or get that "What if?" I think I would feel this way if my MCAT score was high and an MD wasn't completely out of reach for me. A lot of people brought this up in the Ask DocEspana Anything thread, so it seems to be a common theme for pre-DOs.

By the way, I attend the UCD AMSA conference a few weeks ago, and there was a professor from the Touro in CA. She was enthusiastic, well-spoken, and charismatic, but when she demonstrated OMT with a pelvic manipulation, it was almost cringe-worthy. I got turned off to OMM big time, but got a very good impression of Touro CA.

Sorry for the break, guys. Someone reported a joke that I made in the MCAT forum about scores, so SDN put me on sabbatical.

Anyhow, as far as the California SMP situation, here's my new plan, if it interests you:

I'll be applying to Master's degree programs in sciences (eg biochemistry, biotechnology, MCDB with pharmacology emphasis, biomedical imaging, etc), all in California.

Reasons:
1. I get free tuition at public UC schools
2. SMPs are a gamble
3. SMPs aren't guaranteed
4. I save 40 thousand dollars
5. I can get into DO schools now with my current GPA
6. I'll have another summer to study for and retake the MCAT (I'm sitting at a 30 now, and I didn't study for the verbal section AT ALL and got an 8. I'll outdo it guaranteed next time).
7. By the time I'm done at UCLA, I'll have over a 3.5. My GPA would be closer to 3.65 if I didn't have a medical problem in one of my classes, that I have documentation from the professor, TA, and disability office, as well as proof of my exam score being affected (I scored over 1 standard deviation higher than the rest of the class, then tanked on the final because of it, and got a C+ in a class).
8. A master's degree in a hard science or other useful field is actually worth something, as opposed to an SMP master's.
9. Did I mention that I'll save 40 grand?


And on that note, with the change in residency accreditation by the ACGME and AOA, the differences between DO's and MD's is lessening all the time. With a master's in a hard science in a field related to what I want to practice in, I'll have that much better of a shot at landing a more competitive residency, anyways.



So with that, I say adieu, Postbaccalaureate forum. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. When you want to come see me, call 1 800 I'm Rick James, B***h.

MDforMee said:

With a master's in a hard science in a field related to what I want to practice in, I'll have that much better of a shot at landing a more competitive residency, anyways.

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A masters count for zero in residency apps

MDforMee said:

So with that, I say adieu, Postbaccalaureate forum.

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Thank the lord