Sick of these "lifestyle" questions.

kinetic · Apr 14, 2004

Any of you guys actually care about what you're doing, rather than how little you'll have to do it? This is what pisses me off about medicine (small 'm'). All of you lame-o people who tell residency directors and fellowship directors, "ever since I was two-and-a-half I have always wanted to be a [plug the high paying specialty here] ...I would give my left nut-sack to be a [plug the high paying specialty here] and have ritually killed my spouse and sacrificed him/her in the name of [that specialty]." When all you really want to know is "how much can I make for working as little as possible and seeing no patients while I impress the guys/gals with my flashy M.D."

doc05 · Apr 14, 2004

dude, lighten up. There's a ton of crap to put up with in medicine and noone wants to deal with it all the time.

hookaman · Apr 14, 2004

Lifestyle is an important thing to consider when making a decision about specialities. If you want to spend the rest of your life at the hospital go ahead, but I'd like to see some daylight every once in a while.

irish79 · Apr 15, 2004

I like that they are all worried about lifestyle. That means that they are less likely to go into invasive cardiology--a horrible lifestyle--and that only means better chance for me!

kinetic · Apr 15, 2004

Boomer said:
Anyone have details on lifestyle of people who die young because they're so damned uptight that there arse won't allow expulsion of wastes?

I guess Boomer is so loose that he has anal leakage (hence the nick).

In my experience, the people who always talk behind closed doors about wanting Allergy & Immunology, Cardiology, or GI because "I'm gonna make mad amounts of cash!" are the very same ones who drone on in public about "putting patients first and having medicine as your first and only love to the exclusion of friends and family if you really are serious." You're really going to pretend that you don't see this?

If Family Practice, Psychology, or Pediatrics suddenly became highly-reimbursed specialties, I wonder how many personal statements would overnight change from "I have always been fascinated with treating acne and curing baldness" to "I have always held primary care to be one of the most noble callings and something that I have dedicated myself to since birth."

kinetic · Apr 15, 2004

P.S. Note nobody posts questions on "what is the lifestyle of Endocrinology" or "what is the lifestyle of Rheumatology" - two of the lowest-paying subspecialties in IM. I wonder why? Hmmm ....I wonder why people only ask about lifestyles for high-paying and prestigious subspecialties ....hmmmm ......I know there's a reason, but I can't quite put my finger on it ....

sanfilippo · Apr 15, 2004

i also wish people would stop asking about lifestyle...sure, people want lives out of medicine, but if people are pursuing only gi or cards because they earn more money but may have to put in more hours, that's sad. i

i'm still trying to convert many people to consider rheumatology! it's a great field and i could care less about taking a cut in my pay-check after subspecializing...it should be what you enjoy doing and what piques your curiosity. then again, some folks choose medical school/medicine out of avarice.

-s.

kinetic · Apr 15, 2004

I also like the conversations that go, "Allergy would rock, because you get paid for EVERYTHING, but it's way too competitive so I'm gonna try for GI". That's an actual conversation. You can hear the love of GI and the dedication to medicine almost bleeding through every word! And there obviously was also a lot of love of Allergy, too! I, too, have spent many a waking hour thinking, 'if only I could somehow ...SOMEHOW decrease the incidence of rhinorrhea - then I know that my medical training would not have been in vain!' :laugh:

dharmabum7 · Apr 15, 2004

kinetic,

when it all comes down to it...you want to be happy in what you want to be interested in what you do, you want to enjoy life to some degree because up to this point, you have already given up a lot...

i mean, i meet people who are set on interventional cardiology without thinking about the sacrifice involved...

finally our generation was the divorce generation...many of us had parents who split up and well it sucked...so whats wrong with trying to balance family, career and life outside medicine?

i understand your cynicism but you have to realize that most happy people in medicine are usually the most well balanced.

we all need to find that line between being interested and excited by what you as a career while also having time to spend with family and enjoying life once in a while...

i have met so many doctors who spend all their time in the hospital and i have decided that as much i care about patients, i'm not going to be one of them....

-dharmabum

kinetic · Apr 15, 2004

There's nothing wrong with wanting to balance work and life. I think you misunderstand what I'm getting at. It's hypocrisy that I find distasteful. Find me someone who will openly admit that they chose their field because they want some free time ...hell, that's why a lot of physicians rip on the "punch in-punch out" ED physicians. You talk to people and you get this canned ten-minute spiel about how "I want to improve people's lives and I have always had an interest in blah blah blah". Right. All I want to do is point out that this "interest" evaporates as soon as you hear that the salaries are going down or the hours are going up - what a coincidence!

If we could somehow blind people to salary or work hours, you think the same distribution of specialty choice would occur? And you really buy all the applicants who say they have "loved" their specialties forever? You mean you've always felt highly about knocking someone out and watching their vital signs (anesthesia) or treating their alopecia (dermatology) or triaging people (ED)? Or do you mean that you fell in love with it once you heard how sweet a deal it was? Because I think you really mean the latter.

Cynical? Yep. The truth? Yep.

Da Vinci2 · Apr 15, 2004

This topic has been raised before. I personally have more respect for those who are going into a "harder" specialty than someone who is going into a "lifestyle" specialty. However, it doesn't matter too much to me what field other people are going into, as we need people in all specialties for this health care system to work. But even with that said, I despise those people who, once got into a "lifestyle specialty," behave with total disrespect for other specialties. Total A$$es.

drsmash · Apr 15, 2004

where's my derm spot???!!!!????!!!!
I never got an interview...those bastards. I guess they weren't too impressed with my personal statement, which basically read like this: "I thought I wanted to go into primary care, but when I noticed that my attendings were miserable (most had been divorced at least once and their workload sucked), I decided against it. Then to top it off, I got myself married and decided that maybe family was more important to me than my work. After considering all the specialties, I decided that derm was the most conducive to my future plans.

And oh, btw...I think acne is WAAAYYY cool dude!!!

I also think it's cool you can make a lot of money treating it.
ummmm, I also like to play a lot of golf because golf is cool too. I have found that derm is conducive to that also.

Well anyways,
please consider me for your residency position.

Thanks!"

I think maybe I might have to go back to the drawing board and come up with something better.

powermd · Apr 15, 2004

Since there are no good dissenting views expressed so far, I will offer mine: For the work you do, the primary care specialties all promise to be wonderfully fulfilling fields-- they offer what most of us entered medicine to experience (meaningful doctor-patient relationships, problem-solving using medical science, and hands-on procedures). For that reason, I believe if they were better compensated, or offered a better lifestyle, they would be a bit more popular than they are now. The fact is our country's payment system has ruined these specialties by eroding the doctor-patient relationship and doctor autonomy. The doctor-patient relationship suffers when doctors are given financial incentives not to treat, and from the greater numbers of patients doctors must squeeze into each hour. Doctor autonomy suffers from the many restrictions on what doctors can and can't do with different patients based on their insurance coverage. The legal system hasn't helped either. From what I understand doctor's hospital notes are subject to scrutiny by investigators from Medicare, and if they aren't long enough, Medicare can retroactively deny payments and fine the doctor. Knowing all of this, new medical school graduates feel much less duty to serve their patients than physicians of the past, when doctors were rewarded for their personal sacrifices. My generation is saying "hey, you can take away the doctor-patient relationship, and my practice autonomy, but I'm taking back my salary and free time by pursuing a lifestyle specialty." Sooner or later, there won't be enough primary care doctors to meet the market demand for their services-- and the payment system will have to respond. There is nothing wrong with what today's new physicians are telling us about the health care system. From studying human resource management I learned that people tend to put back into a job what they get out of it, and are unsatisfied if they give or get in an unbalanced way. Today's physicians are not saying they want to be paid too much for too little work, they are saying that for the work they do, and the investment made in their education, they want better compensation and a better lifestyle than the primary care specialties currently offer. I don't believe rejecting primary care as a career possibility for these reasons makes new doctors hypocritical, just because their true (or stated) reasons for entering medicine were likely more idealistic.

cbc · Apr 15, 2004

Kinetic, I agree with you. Dont let these infidels who criticize you pull you down. Stay true to yourself.

I too am sick of the multiple threads called "I want to do Cards or GI how do I get the fellowship?" Is it strange how these competitive fellowships *coincidentally* happen to also be the highest paying IM subspecs? If one likes Cards, that's cool. If one likes GI, that's cool too. But if you are interested in doing either or, you're obviously in it for the money. Of course, money and lifestyle are important. We all deserve monetary compensation for the amount of work/sacrifice/education we put in, and our families who love us dearly deserve our time with them. But no matter what IM subspecialty is chosen, you're going to be rich/well-off. The question then is rich or more rich? Obviously most threads here stray towards *more rich.* We should let those who are truly passionate about the practice of cards or GI go into these fields. Yet, people have to compete for these spots just to add a couple more Gs to their paycheck.

Hey, you are entitled not to respect uptight people, and I am entitled not to respect greedy people. Like I said, if one truly likes GI, then do it. But those who are in it because of the money, well, you are greedy, and I dislike you. I think I and Kinetic are rightfully entitled to having that opinion.

(smiley icon no apparent reason, i just think it looks funny)

dharmabum7 · Apr 16, 2004

while i think i agree with you guys that people should not base life decisions on compensation...

but here's my arguement...gi, cards are lucrative fields...therefore they are hard to get into...therefore, only the best of the best will get in...therefore, by offering a high economic reward, you will be getting some of the best and brightest in GI/Cards eventually...in a sense these fields are getting stronger...sure its a bunch of greedy people, but they know their ****, they are willing to work long hours, and ultimately the profit motive has lead to better services for the patient populace....

now i admit, some of these folks may have no bedside manner but at least the patients are getting the right pathway in their heart ablated....and the right end of gi tract scoped

cbc · Apr 16, 2004

We are assuming of course, that these docs were actually compassionately abiding by the decisions and wishes of the patients to do the heart ablation, and these patients have had the highest catering/attention of preventive care of heart disease prior and subsequent to this procedure. At least that is my "right" pathway.

People who work hard because they want money, and people who work hard because they enjoy that line of work, are two different things, the latter of which I would prefer if I were a patient. When you use the word "best" in this regard in your post, this term refers either to strong test-taking, adept at doing quality research during med school/residency, and/or have connections. My perception of best in medicine is knowing enough of your stuff because you feel a true passion about the stuff, and knowing how to tenderly care for the patient.

You are correct though. I too find a strong correlation between greed and selfishness. Most greedy people are self-centered, more concerned for their own purpose and wellbeing. It has been difficult for me to see much true altruism in greedy individuals. And that is the problem, because I would wish to see more altruistic doctors. That is the corrupt aspect of this world, and that is apparently what I must live with until my death.

dharmabum7 said:
while i think i agree with you guys that people should not base life decisions on compensation...

but here's my arguement...gi, cards are lucrative fields...therefore they are hard to get into...therefore, only the best of the best will get in...therefore, by offering a high economic reward, you will be getting some of the best and brightest in GI/Cards eventually...in a sense these fields are getting stronger...sure its a bunch of greedy people, but they know their ****, they are willing to work long hours, and ultimately the profit motive has lead to better services for the patient populace....

now i admit, some of these folks may have no bedside manner but at least the patients are getting the right pathway in their heart ablated....and the right end of gi tract scoped

kinetic · Apr 16, 2004

I don't mind people wanting compensation for their work. I mean - without trying to be a jacka$$ - step back and look at all of the work we have put into this road: MCAT, med school, USMLE I-III, Boards, recertification, working 80 hrs/wk and BEING HAPPY BECAUSE IT'S LESS THAN USUAL (versus non-medical people who work 55 hrs/wk and are mad because it's MORE than usual). Plus, all the B.S. we put up with: getting woken up by idiots who want to tell us that the BP is 120/60, getting yelled at by patients who are drug-users or low-life bums, non-compliant patients, doing social work and transport. (Yeah, I know you all are horrified and aghast right about now.)

My problem is that it seems like 90% of the people also want to PRETEND that they are these noble, selfless guys/gals who "have always wanted to be a doctor in order to improve the lives of mankind" and would "work naked and homelessly, just because I care THAT much about my patients ...I'd do it even if I got paid NOTHING!" And then (like I've said in other posts) apply to Dermatology while high-fiving each other that they "will be rolling in the cash working four days a week while you losers are working your butts off!" Did they work hard to get into these cush places? Yes. Are they smarter/more qualified than me? Undoubtedly. Are they brown-nosing hypocrites? Usually.

I don't care if you want to be Donald Trump or Mother Teresa. But if you're going to be hypocritical about it, then you're going to hear about it from me. (Will you care? Probably not.)

powermd · Apr 16, 2004

kinetic said:
My problem is that it seems like 90% of the people also want to PRETEND that they are these noble, selfless guys/gals who "have always wanted to be a doctor in order to improve the lives of mankind" and would "work naked and homelessly, just because I care THAT much about my patients ...I'd do it even if I got paid NOTHING!" And then (like I've said in other posts) apply to Dermatology while high-fiving each other that they "will be rolling in the cash working four days a week while you losers are working your butts off!" Did they work hard to get into these cush places? Yes. Are they smarter/more qualified than me? Undoubtedly. Are they brown-nosing hypocrites? Usually.

I disagree. Of course, we aren't being very scientific here, but most of the people I know going into "lifestyle" fields openly acknowledge they prioritize the lifestyle component over the work it's self. Most people seem to go into medicine for the idealistic reasons, but are very happy with the possibility for high compensation or a good lifestyle. By the end of med school it doesn't surprise me that many look at what's out there and decide the misery of certain fields outweighs whatever altruistic feelings they have left. There may be a few true hyprocrites out there, but it's not most people going into these fields. Like I said before, we're not being very scientific here.

cbc · Apr 16, 2004

Yes, I do have to agree with powermd over kinetic that most of my classmates openly admit it's the lifestyle of being a doc that is more important than caring for their patients.

kinetic · Apr 16, 2004

Then I must have had one aberrant medical school class. Yeah, of course, people laughed about going into lifestyle careers - that's how I can recount them doing the high-fiving. But - and I'm sure this has been noted by all of you, as well - these people also throw on a facade of defense when people point out that these are "lifestyle" choices. They all make like they are doing it "for the good of mankind".

"What?," demand the plastic surgery people, "I am going into plastics so that I can help burn victims recuperate and perhaps lead a more meaningful life ...that is my gift to mankind." Then they giggle about throwing in some "DD"s into some chick - but in private, where you won't see it.

"I just want to help people lead productive lives in comfort," say the Allergists. "They shouldn't have to suffer through their allergies and allergic reactions can also lead to anaphylaxis, so if you think about it, I am preventing a major medical emergency!" Right, but they also looooove that they can bill for every injection on a skin allergy test - which they only say in private.

"I keep the patient stable and am the right hand of a surgeon," say the Anesthesiologists. "We are essential to a safe and proper surgery. I am here because I want to sacrifice for the wellbeing of the patient." Meanwhile, they sip coffee and read magazines while the "beeping" goes on in the background ...and of course chart the vitals.

Face it, all these people you say are up front about their lifestyle choices will DENY that if you confront them ...because they know it makes them sound like losers (in a relative sense). They just talk up their field and how "intense" and "important" it is. (ED is the best on this ..."we are the first line of defense! We stabilize the patient and make the crack diagnoses that you guys take weeks to confirm!" Thanks, you walking page directories. Call me as you take off for a weekend of hiking and swimming.)

powermd · Apr 16, 2004

kinetic said:
Face it, all these people you say are up front about their lifestyle choices will DENY that if you confront them ...because they know it makes them sound like losers (in a relative sense). They just talk up their field and how "intense" and "important" it is. (ED is the best on this ..."we are the first line of defense! We stabilize the patient and make the crack diagnoses that you guys take weeks to confirm!" Thanks, you walking page directories. Call me as you take off for a weekend of hiking and swimming.)

I don't believe you. I can't prove it, but I'd bet you are overgeneralizing based on a few people in your class who made a few comments you didn't like, and your own biases about what you think a doctor's motivations 'should' be. You must face the fact that we need physicians in every specialty, even the ones with lifestyle benefits. Who cares what their motivation is? Just like those who came before them, they will do the job and serve their patients. Most will do it well, and love what they do. As far as their "acting like they are saving humanity" (or whatever you said), some of this may be realistic- as doctors save lives in every field - and some may be denial or disingenuousness over their real (what you would consider dishonorable) reasons for entering their field. I sincerely doubt you know your classmates well enough to generalize about all medical students entering lifestyle fields. I know a lot of my classmates very well, but I really can't speculate on their deeper reasoning for choosing their field. Remember, just because the future radiologist jokes about 'rolling a Lambo', or the future anesthesiologist crows about how amazing his hours will be as an attending, doesn't mean deep down s/he doesn't love helping patients and doing the work of their field. In private I make these jokes all the time, and I LOVE patients, I LOVE medicine, I LOVE teaching, and I LOVE anesthesiology.

mcataz · Apr 17, 2004

EDIT

I edited my post because I was simply emitting what many others have already said. I think the biggest fallacy facing physicians is the assumption that if a doctor cares about his salary and lifestyle, then it is assumed he doesn't care about his patients. That's funny because we never hear of dentists or chiropracters accused of this? Why is it that we can accept that certain businesses do care about their clients as well as making a profit. I don't know of one physician who genuinely doesn't care about patients on some level. Yeah, I know many physicians who aren't bleeding hearts who will work for free and never complain about any facet of their job. But to automatically assume that a physician who is happy earning a large salary doesn't care about patients is simply generalizing. Where does it say that a person who cares about lifestyle doesn't care about patients? It's this oversimplified notion that causes doctors to provide trite explanations when asked about his reasons for entering medicine. In my opinion, it's the Mother Theresa-like physicians who scare me the most. I just don't trust those physicians because in most cases they tend to be hypocrites if not down right annoying.

cbc · Apr 17, 2004

Mcataz. Please read the entire thread before posting. The thread is not about lifestyle, actually it is about the hypocrisy of lying why you want to go into a specialty.

Kinetic, every ED is going to be biased for an understandable reason. First, they probably love their field more than others. Second, it is their job to sell their specialty constantly so people will apply to their residency program.

But I believe most in my class outwardly say they are interested in opthamology or derm so they can spend more time with their kids. Yeah, I agree that students should not lie about why they want a specialty, but let's face it, people lie everyday to maintain an impression. Asian chicks always pretend like they never have sex (my own politically incorrect generalization here). So are we going to start a thread like "Let's cut the bullcrap I know you Asian girls like sex, so admit it I hate you for your hypocrisy!" Just got to live with it. NCAA players always *say* on tv they're in it for their love of the game/coach/team/city, that's what drives them, never saying it's all about the money. But let's face it, when it's time to declare their nba draft candidacy early, no game/team/city is going to keep this same player from going for the million dollar signing bonus. It's the type of bull that happens daily that we must live with, so much so it's not even bull anymore, but it's just a normal aspect of people.

punjabiMD · Apr 17, 2004

Kinetic, I really do agree with you on some level. But a question in my mind still remains: why the hell do you care so much to have started a thread on this?

DR · Apr 17, 2004

There's such a combination of factors that go into the reasons why people say what they say. If you sit down and talk with the older docs out there, they will tell you that these types of discussions didn't occur back in the day because, first of all most were ashamed to admit they even thought about lifestyle, period. Medicine was very macho then, and everyone was gonna get paid well either way. Nowadays, the older docs will tell you that they don't blame the new generation for considering it, because of what has happened to medicine. It is just as important to consider lifestyle as it is anything else. If you choose a career path based on what you like or find interesting, but find out in the end the lifestyle is making you dislike it, then your patients will suffer. You will find some people that will come right out and say they want to make a lot of money and work very little, and some will keep it to themselves, and then there are others who don't feel this way at all. I don't think this is a new phenomenon, and I don't think we can kid ourselves into thinking that people are somehow different now than they were years ago. I believe there are the same amount of people feeling this way now as before, but you just didn't hear about it then...it wasn't ok to talk about it. I can tell you I work with people who love medicine, who truly are fascinated by the cases and the patients, but now are being slapped in the face with the reality of how many patients they need to carry, the amount of time they need to spend filling out paperwork and haggling with social workers and insurance companies, and how little time they actually get to spend delving into their patients' medical conditions. These are docs that would normally be excellent clinicians, and wonderful caregivers, but have become chickens running around with their heads cut off, trying desperately to be able to read a little bit about what their patient has, but not really having enough time to completely contemplate their condition. They talk of dreams of being able to take as long as they like with each patient, and to address every concern the patient has (in a medical Utopia); this tells me they really care and really want to be in it for the right reasons. However, these are also the same docs who will tell us younger MD's that we really need to consider lifestyle, because the ills the healthcare system suffers now won't really turn around in any timely fashion, so in the mean time instead of sacrificing time away from your family and your life (which isn't fair, let's face it...I don't care how committed you are) you should consider practicing the medicine you like/love, and consider which path will allow you to do what you want without becoming bitter and jaded. I think the students you guys speak of are byproducts of the current state of affairs of the health care system; they are hearing the older docs talk about their situation on a daily basis. It may sound immoral, but let's face it...the truth is that if everyone were guaranteed a great living in medicine, more people would choose based on what they love and less on lifestyle. But the reality is, some specialties are working harder than ever before, losing more autonomy, getting sued more often, getting less respect from patients, getting reimbursed less and less from insurance companies, and spending more hours a day figuring out how to run a practice when the rules are changing month to month (by HMO's, Medicare/Medicaid, etc.). After a while, the medicine part of it all starts to become very difficult to keep in the foreground.
I think there will always be the liars out there who feel guilty about ther motivations, but tell everyone something different...that will always be the case (and always has been). I wouldn't stress it, and I'd just try to make choices based on what you like, but consider the lifestyle as well. You can love something, but be made to dislike it if the circumstances allow.

kinetic · Apr 17, 2004

sardarg89 said:
why the hell do you care so much to have started a thread on this?

This is something I'm pretty passionate about for a number of reasons. When you apply to medical school, you have to prove to some admissions board that "I have no interest in monetary gain ...I am here solely for my love of humanity". If you even raise the SPECTRE of money, you get the old boot. Why? Because (assume hypnotic drone here) everyone knows that medicine is about love of people, not money.

Going through medical school, I had to hear bull about "if you don't love medicine more than anything else in your life, you're not a real doctor (or you won't be able to make it)" from LOTS of attendings. Not in a "I am so great" way, but just matter-of-fact. And you constantly hear the "if you are in it to make money, you're in the wrong field ...go into business or something".

During residency, I had to sit in silence while clawing at my brain every time some jacka$$ wanted to lecture me about "love and compassion and understanding for all patients ...the non-compliant patients are non-compliant because WE don't properly educate them ...the people who treat you like crap are just acting out because they are in a hospital - would YOU like to be in a hospital ..." etc.

Everyone beats themselves bloody to show that they care about people. Face it, probably 80% of you are saying "damn, how did this bastard get to be a physician?" at this point in my post.

Well, I got pissed at my ED because the "physicians" down there were jacking off. They didn't evaluate patients, they left charts blank, they even LIED about information (said tests had been performed that weren't, made up histories and physicals, etc.). I saw LOTS of patients have unnecessary complications as a result. Well, I didn't handle the situation well - I won't lie to you ...in fact, I was a royal a--hole. But I can tell you that it wasn't just me; every other resident saw the same crap go on and complained about it (but they didn't act out like me).

Well, guess what? I was told to basically shut up and cover by my administration. And when I didn't, I got the boot. Am I bitter? Yep. Why? Because these people who have preached to me for the past 6 years about caring for the patient above all else obviously don't give a rat's a$$ about the patient - they care about having people be a "team player" and "go with the flow" and "accept the status quo". Which is fine ...just tell the truth, don't try to act like a saint.

And before you give me the "it's just that one ED" line, think again. I went on the interview trail this year in Surgery (different specialty) and got rejected by EVERYONE. Why? Lots of PDs told me to my face "we just want someone who will follow what we say PERIOD". And ALL of them said "our ED is exactly like that - what are you gonna do?"

Now, I have to face the prospect of not practicing in the medical field ever again (which I actually DO care about more than the money) because I stood up for what I thought was right and for patient care (albeit, as I said, in a jacka$$ way).

That answer your question?

tofurious · Apr 17, 2004

That's a rather unfortuante story, kinetic. I have had disagreements with you in other threads, but I think you were right in the ED. The same story pretty much happened to the medicine resident at Hopkins who filed a letter of complaint to the ACGME on their 80hr work week violation. While we have always been taught in formal education to right the wrongs and be holier than those around you, I think the truth of the matter is hospitals do want team players and it's never worth it to lose your job over your idealism (as you at least have a CHANCE of changing things if you're still in the system, but you're blacklisted if you really burn your system). That said, there are many types of team players. If you look at Star Trek alone, there are four types of team players: Will Riker, who can be a captain himself but takes orders from Picard (and also challenges him from time to time); Spock, who is not a leader per se due to his excessive logical reasoning but is the most competent person to hold down the fort while Kirk fools around; Bones, who will never be a leader but who is an essential mother figure; and the anonymous guy in red who always gets killed in an away assignment. So it's up to you (and the field you want to be in) to determine which type of team player you need to be. In surgery, I imagine they all want Spocks. In medicine, Rikers are probably ideal.

powermd · Apr 17, 2004

Kinetic, I wish to congratulate you on doing something few people have the balls to do around here- admit your own (fairly horrific) personal biases, even if they detract from your own argument. There's another poster called MacGuyver who has continuously assaulted these forums for years with garbage about mid-level practitioners taking over medicine. S/he posts with the passion and committment of a well-paid lobbyist, yet whenever anyone asks why s/he cares SO MUCH, Macguyver ignores the post. Anyway, I just wanted to say I respect what you did.

kinetic said:
This is something I'm pretty passionate about for a number of reasons. When you apply to medical school, you have to prove to some admissions board that "I have no interest in monetary gain ...I am here solely for my love of humanity". If you even raise the SPECTRE of money, you get the old boot. Why? Because (assume hypnotic drone here) everyone knows that medicine is about love of people, not money.

You sound like you wanted to freely admit you care about the money. Bringing up the motivation of money in an interview just looks bad and offends some people. Why? PC bull****-- it's just not gentlemanly. Since you don't want to offend ANYONE on an admissions committee-- you shouldn't bring it up. Having said all this, I think admissions interviewers should cut interviewees some slack and bring the issue up themselves, it may even help to flush out the folks whose behavior suggests money is the top priority.

Going through medical school, I had to hear bull about "if you don't love medicine more than anything else in your life, you're not a real doctor (or you won't be able to make it)" from LOTS of attendings. Not in a "I am so great" way, but just matter-of-fact. And you constantly hear the "if you are in it to make money, you're in the wrong field ...go into business or something".

So what? Just because people say that stuff doesn't mean it's true. Take it with a grain of salt. I did. Of course, I never heard anyone say anything so blatant as what you quote above.

During residency, I had to sit in silence while clawing at my brain every time some jacka$$ wanted to lecture me about "love and compassion and understanding for all patients ...the non-compliant patients are non-compliant because WE don't properly educate them ...the people who treat you like crap are just acting out because they are in a hospital - would YOU like to be in a hospital ..." etc.

Again, just because authority figures say that stuff doesn't mean it's true. You know, it's okay to do your own thinking. You can listen to that stuff and disagree with it, either privately, or by making your thoughts known. Maybe you should have had a conversation with one of these doctors to discuss your feelings about non-compliant patients, etc.

Everyone beats themselves bloody to show that they care about people. Face it, probably 80% of you are saying "damn, how did this bastard get to be a physician?" at this point in my post.

No they don't. Most just go about their business treating patients, trying to do a good job, and look good in front of those evaluating them. Right now I'm not wondering how you got to be a physician, but I am starting to see how you became so cynical. I think you may have a personality disorder. Lots of people experience what you did, but don't have a maladaptive response to it. Your responses to all this are definitely maladaptive.

Well, I got pissed at my ED because the "physicians" down there were jacking off. They didn't evaluate patients, they left charts blank, they even LIED about information (said tests had been performed that weren't, made up histories and physicals, etc.). I saw LOTS of patients have unnecessary complications as a result. Well, I didn't handle the situation well - I won't lie to you ...in fact, I was a royal a--hole. But I can tell you that it wasn't just me; every other resident saw the same crap go on and complained about it (but they didn't act out like me).

I'm becomming more convinced of the personality disorder theory. I don't believe what you thought you saw actually happend to a significant degree. Those docs would be sued to death by now if any of that were true over a significant period of time. Doctors get away with lots of mistakes, but you are suggesting some kind of conspiracy to practice bad medicine. That's a pretty extraordinary claim, and in all two EDs I worked in, I never saw anything like it. I've never heard another med student complaining about the kinds of problems you claim to have seen.

Well, guess what? I was told to basically shut up and cover by my administration. And when I didn't, I got the boot.

What does that mean exactly?

Am I bitter? Yep. Why? Because these people who have preached to me for the past 6 years about caring for the patient above all else obviously don't give a rat's a$$ about the patient - they care about having people be a "team player" and "go with the flow" and "accept the status quo". Which is fine ...just tell the truth, don't try to act like a saint.

I'm getting really curious where all this nonsense apparently went down.

And before you give me the "it's just that one ED" line, think again. I went on the interview trail this year in Surgery (different specialty) and got rejected by EVERYONE. Why? Lots of PDs told me to my face "we just want someone who will follow what we say PERIOD". And ALL of them said "our ED is exactly like that - what are you gonna do?"

Don't you think it's about time you started asking "is the world crazy, or is it just me?" I think it's just you. Having said that, surgery was competitive this year, so don't blame yourself too much.

Now, I have to face the prospect of not practicing in the medical field ever again (which I actually DO care about more than the money) because I stood up for what I thought was right and for patient care (albeit, as I said, in a jacka$$ way).

You should really consider seeing a psychiatrist, if you don't already. I'm not trying to be mean or disrespectful, I just see a lot of pathology in your writing. Good luck.

kinetic · Apr 17, 2004

The answers to your questions, powermd (except where this all went down). By the way, I knew that this conversation was going to go this way with my reply post - it was inevitable, but I'm tired of hiding this story.

powermd said:
You sound like you wanted to freely admit you care about the money.

No. Look, this is NOT a money issue. What it IS and always HAS BEEN is a hypocrisy issue. People don't want the truth - they want you to tell them what they want to hear. And whoever is best at it wins. You've seen it in college, you've seen it in medical school, you've seen it in residency, and you'll see it everywhere. I know that, so don't bother telling me "that's life". The point is that people in medicine PRETEND that they don't do that stuff. They all dance around pretending that money is anathema to them and that people who money matters to are heathens and jerkos.

powermd said:
Maybe you should have had a conversation with one of these doctors to discuss your feelings about non-compliant patients, etc.

Are you out of your mind? No way. I've talked about it with attendings a few times, but as soon as I even INTIMATE that I think patients are being silly for not being compliant and landing back in the hospital for the seventeenth admission, I get frowning looks of disapproval. I took care of an end-stage COPD patient on home O2 who was admitted for COPD exacerbation. We found out that she was still smoking in the hospital (on oxygen) and that her KIDS - who cared sooo much about her and were demanding that we "cure her" - were giving her the smokes because "we just can't refuse her! We're not animals, after all!" Hey, pay for the admission because society shouldn't foot your bill, kids. The attending for her was sympathetic to my viewpoint, but also reprimanded me for "not understanding" her.

powermd said:
I don't believe what you thought you saw actually happend to a significant degree. Those docs would be sued to death by now if any of that were true over a significant period of time.

Wrong. First of all, I don't have a personality disorder ...more on that in a moment. Yes, I can see how you would just say, oh, it's crazy ol' kinetic and his wacky hallucinations. I understand. But many attendings and residents concurred with my assessment even AFTER I was fired - BUT they said that there was no way to change the system. "What, you want us to fire the whole ED? Shut down the hospital? People get their patients from the ED, so you'll never get that done." Why were there no lawsuits? Two reasons.

1) AFTER we would come and evaluate the patient, ED attendings would dictate their stuff off that, so it showed that their "thinking" was along the lines of the consultants - and who can be faulted for that? I got to the point where I wrote my assessment and then carried it around with me as LONG as possible before placing it on the chart. If I knew a patient was being admitted, I'd wait until they hit the floor to do that. Was I being antagonistic? Yes - I told you that I admit I was being a jacka$$. But the point is that what I was doing should IN THEORY not have disturbed anyone. The ED docs IN THEORY don't need the assessment, just the admission orders.

2) They butts were covered by the other services. I literally heard an attending say (regarding a patient with "abdominal pain"), "OK, we need to call Surgery and if they don't want it call GI and if they don't want it call Medicine." Meanwhile, he had NO clue what was going on with the patient and he didn't care. Nothing happened to the patient IN THIS INSTANCE because someone came to evaluate them. When something DID happen, either it was corrected or played off as a complication of the disease process. I saw a patient come in ACTIVELY infarcting, with EKG changes that EVOLVED and positive markers. They sat in the ED and they WATCHED him infarct with no intervention. He ended up in the ICU. Were the Cardiologists mad? You bet. Did they raise an OFFICIAL stink? Nope. They just shook their heads and laughed in derision.

powermd said:
Don't you think it's about time you started asking "is the world crazy, or is it just me?"

I wouldn't be a sane person if I didn't question EVERY DAY and TO THIS DAY whether I was in the right or in the wrong. I have doubts about EVERYTHING I experienced and did and witnessed. I talked about it with friends, colleagues, attendings ...everyone. The question raised at interviews and that I have raised with myself is "well, why isn't everyone else mad?" Oh, they bitch - that's all the chiefs do is field complaints about the ED. During our bi-monthly residents meeting, all we would do is bitch about it for an hour, stopping only because we had to return to work. One resident even used his VACATION time to organize all of the blank ED charts we had photocopied (that's what we're told to do when they don't document anything, including vitals and labs - Xerox it "for evidence" that is never used). We have literally hundreds of charts. But nothing will ever be done with them because, as I learned, the ED has a lot of political clout and my department had none. But the exercise helped residents FEEL like something would be done, which appeased them. And a lot of people had the opinion, "hey, we're only here for x years and then f--- this place. Who cares if it falls to s---?" I couldn't do that. My dad died because of a medical error that could have been avoided. I'm not going to say f--- someone just because I'M moving on. If that's a personality disorder to you, then fine. We're supposed to give two craps about taking care of patients, but apparently to a lot of people (and I'm not implying powermd), that comes second to covering for the medical profession because "we all gotta get paid".

kinetic · Apr 17, 2004

P.S. tofurious, I agree. A close attending to me (who wrote me a kick-ass LOR) said "you want to change things, you have to stay in the game". It just sucks to feel like you're a part of something that you detest. Like you're watching a woman getting raped or something and you just keep walking. Because you'll deal with it in the future. I know that's not how you mean it, but that's just how I feel about it. Thanks for the support, though.

P.P.S. powermd, I also agree that - like I said two or three times already - I handled the situation poorly and immaturely. I was a jerk and an idiot. I was yelling and screaming and acting out all the time at the ED. I'm not trying to hide it. OK? Is that clear enough for you? But I STILL feel that, while my actions were wrong, my motivation was still something I stand for. That won't change. What I saw TO ME at least was wrong.

Converse · Apr 18, 2004

It's okay if people want to be compensated according to their skill, experience, and level of responsibility.

mcataz · Apr 18, 2004

cbc said:
Mcataz. Please read the entire thread before posting. The thread is not about lifestyle, actually it is about the hypocrisy of lying why you want to go into a specialty.

CBC,

Please read my post more carefully before replying. My post wasn't about lifestyle. Instead, it questioned the very assumption that you and others are making. It's a huge generalization to assert that people choose cardiology and GI for the income potential alone. Cards and GI aren't the only fields that pay large salaries. If someone is capable enough to acquire a cards or GI fellowship then he or she is certainly capable enough to pursue other income fields. If someone only cared about money and lifestyle, I'm sure there are other fields of medicine they could have pursued that would have allowed far less competition like anesthesiology or physiatry. They chose cards and GI over those other fields for a reason and that's because many of those people are passionate about cards and GI. What you haven't bothered to address is the notion that people can be passionate and money driven at the same time. There is no rule that states that people who seek to earn a high income are less passionate about a field. Why can't people be both? Is that so impossible to believe?

cbc · Apr 18, 2004

I did make the claim that it is *possible* for one to *incidentally* have a true interest in both cards and GI. It appears to me, however, that this possibility is not high. It is also possible for one to incidentally have a true interest in orthopedics, plastics, and derm. I don't judge any individual for having these interests, but I do find in general these people are more in for the money than the fields. Yes this is a huge generalization I wish to uphold, at least unless I am proven otherwise from future experience.

Of course, you are correct, people who do aim for cards and GI gave up other fields, such as derm, plastics. These people probably *hate* skin and/or working in an OR 12 hrs straight with scrubs all over them. Since they dont hate IM, heck, mind as well go into it and choose the highest paying subspecialties from there.

Yes, I'm making huge generalizations here. I also made huge generalizations regarding asian females and NCAA players that do not hold true for every single individual. But from my experience, on average this generalization is true, but like I said not for every individual. I think I did address that notion. One can like a field and money. There will always be a few who really like both cards and GI, or a few who really like all three derm orthopedics and plastic. But when this happens, where one only likes several high paying specialties, *chances* are money is much more important than the fields.

Unfortunately, this is not an objective, but a subjective topic. That's my subjective opinion based on my own experiences, which probably don't correspond with yours. Just wanted to explain my opinion that's all.

mcataz said:
CBC,

Please read my post more carefully before replying. My post wasn't about lifestyle. Instead, it questioned the very assumption that you and others are making. It's a huge generalization to assert that people choose cardiology and GI for the income potential alone. Cards and GI aren't the only fields that pay large salaries. If someone is capable enough to acquire a cards or GI fellowship then he or she is certainly capable enough to pursue other income fields. If someone only cared about money and lifestyle, I'm sure there are other fields of medicine they could have pursued that would have allowed far less competition like anesthesiology or physiatry. They chose cards and GI over those other fields for a reason and that's because many of those people are passionate about cards and GI. What you haven't bothered to address is the notion that people can be passionate and money driven at the same time. There is no rule that states that people who seek to earn a high income are less passionate about a field. Why can't people be both? Is that so impossible to believe?

kinetic · Apr 18, 2004

It's so frustrating to be on SDN sometimes. There are so many people who - no matter HOW many times you write something or how explicitly you write it - can't seem to grasp a point. They just read half the post or one sentence and ASSUME they know what the post is about. Then they go off on their half-cocked response.

converse said:
It may surprise people, but having a life and living it with style is important to some people. How can lifestyle and money NOT be important? ...If a teacher was paid $100,000/y and worked 40hr/wk, and a physician worked 80/wk for $40,000/y, I would be a teacher. I would convince myself being a teacher was my calling and hi-five myself as the money rolled in. I don't think it makes me a bad person ...

I'm just going to respond by quoting my OWN prior post. *sigh*

kinetic said:
I don't mind people wanting compensation for their work ...My problem is that it seems like 90% of the people also want to PRETEND that they are these noble, selfless guys/gals ...I don't care if you want to be Donald Trump or Mother Teresa.

kinetic · Apr 18, 2004

mcatz, nobody said these people weren't qualified. Of course they are intelligent people - much more so than me. And nobody is insinuating that anyone should NOT be allowed to go into something they are qualified to do. Got that? Not me, not anyone. You worked hard to get into Derm or Ortho or Allergy, etc. - THAT'S GREAT. I applaud you.

BUT to say that these people chose their profession based solely on being passionate about it is just plain wrong. I have known many people who chose their specialty based on lifestyle FIRST AND FOREMOST. Then, AFTER picking that lifestyle specialty, they did the whole research, score well, etc. thing to get into it. And they said, "I'm working hard now so that I can relax in a few years." That sound like passion for work or for play to you?

Does that make them bad people? NO. Does that mean that ALL people in lifestyle specialties had that viewpoint? NO - but I have heard MANY that do. So what is my beef? People who in their OWN lives can make that choice and then turn around and lecture OTHERS about "you need to only care about patients and ignore money if you want to really be a doctor", etc. That's hypocrisy, do-what-I-say-not-what-I-do ...whatever you want to call it.

kinetic · Apr 18, 2004

Nobody has any more comments about my personality disorder? Might as well pile on, guys - this moment of weakness won't come around again.

kinetic · Apr 18, 2004

P.S. If you still think I'm just "crazy", as powermd put it, go see my ED poll on the Surgery forum:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=110312

Read scutking's reply (near the bottom) and you'll also see another anecdote of mine which demonstrates ED stupidity. Feel free to vote, even if you want to support the ED - that's your right. If you have any good stories of your own, drop them there.

cbc · Apr 18, 2004

Kinetic, I think you need to calm down for a sec. There are many things in this world that one cannot immediately fix. You need to work your way up, gain some power and recognition, then make your rules for others to follow. Everyone has their own idiosyncratic opinions about everything. Not a single person will share the exact opinion about any circumstance. If some high school student saw something wrong, and wanted things changed, are YOU going to follow? You might agree to most of the rules, but there's no way you will follow everything unless it's spectacular.

At UCB a couple years back, some nudists fought for their right to be nude. I agree with them, that it is not offensive or hurtful to others to be nude. Freedom of speech is conditional upon the not infringing on life liberty and pursuit of happiness of others. I don't see how being nude would interfere with another's liberty of persuit of happiness. However, the judge ruled nudism is illegal. What is one to do? Continue to complain, post threads, and go out nude and get arrested? What good would that do? How about, strive to become the Supreme Court Justice, and change the rules?

Jesus Christ did not begin his mission until he was 36. One must gain experience, trust, and training to become a prominent figure, thereby gaining trusting followers to obey your change of rules. Until then, we just have to accept some rules and suck it up, until they are changed. You think Jesus didnt want to heal the blind or rebuke pharisees at age 22? He probably did, but it wasnt his time. Kinetic, this is not your time yet. Be patient, toil your way up, and change the system when the time is ripe. No one said making a difference was easy.

kinetic said:
P.S. If you still think I'm just "crazy", as powermd put it, go see my ED poll on the Surgery forum:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=110312

Read scutking's reply (near the bottom) and you'll also see another anecdote of mine which demonstrates ED stupidity. Feel free to vote, even if you want to support the ED - that's your right. If you have any good stories of your own, drop them there.

kinetic · Apr 18, 2004

cbc, although I don't agree with you about the nudist issue I get your general drift. I haven't given up or anything - I'm going to do some research and try to get into Surgery again.

I'll say one thing. After I got fired, I actually felt a LOT better - although I've got a LOT to worry about now (including the possibility that I'll end up being a homeless bum with a useless 'M.D.' degree), I still feel good that I'm out of that situation. (And if you think I'm out of control now, you should have seen me before I got fired. Your head would have been spinning.

)

But that doesn't change the fact that my blood boils when I hear these ED bums bitching that, "it's 5:05 and my shift ended at 5:00! I can't believe I'm still here, damnit!" Or give a masterful "there's something going on here ...I can't put my finger on it, but I'm concerned." Great training; did you pick that up from 'ER' or 'Scrubs'?

Catfish John · Apr 18, 2004

While kinetic is very much taking it to the extreme, I must say there is a piece of truth to what he is taking about re: the ED in some places. I HAVE notived a certain attitude in some EDs that is too lax...though I have also been in EDs where the docs are on the ball the majority of the time .
A while ago I was on call for my IM clerkship and came down to the ED at 1am to see a HIV+ pt. with LLQ pain. We were admitting him, and I did my H and P, talked with the surg. resident who was on consult and had already seen the pt and was seeing someone else. We turned to the ED attending, who was one of several attending in this particular ED who can be seen in his cargo pants and his scrub top sipping coffee and BSing all night, and asked him what he thought of the pt. His response was that he hadn't seenthe patient yet...

It happens. You can generalize and say that all ER docs are lazy doofuses who don't really care deep down, or you can remind yourself of the other interactions you've had with ED docs who were dedicated and caring and knew their stuff. This was a hospital that had an excellent trauma surg team to handle the big stuff, and a weaker set of ER docs. People go into different fields for different reasons. Most people I know who want to do ER are people who do want to be the first line of defense and will do an exellent job at it. I love a lot of things about ER, but I dont want to do it because irregular shift flip flopping to me is worse than being on call Q4.

My advice to you kinetic is to relax a little. I'm sorry about what happened in your family, but doctors are human, not perfect, and they respond to the grind of a career in medicine differently. Some people want to have a more lifestyle oriented career after 10 years of training and mounting $250,000 of debt. Doesn't mean that they don't care about patients, and why start a crusade against them if they wish to highlight the positives in how they feel about patient care.

Good luck to you kinetic...if you cannot get back into med school there's always law. It sounds to me like you may be more suited to be a malpractice attorney than an MD.

Catfish John · Apr 18, 2004

BTW hee is the 2nd part of the lifestyle question that no one seems to be asking:

Who is a more deciated to the honor of the medical profession:

Someone whose parents paid for their college education and funded a good chunk of their medical schooling, got average to below avergage grades while maintaining a very healthy social life, then graduated med school virtually debt free to pursue FP or peds

OR

Someone who worked through college and took out loans, put themselves 200,000 K in debt to finance their medical eduation, busted hump to be a top student and was always as sharp as could be, and went into Rads, Ortho, Gas, or EMed.

There's really no answer of course, it depends on the individual. Generalizations may be therapeutic to some, but they are pointless.

kinetic · Apr 18, 2004

I'd rather get shot, mugged, and man-raped than to demean myself as a malpractice lawyer. I'll see you at Micky D's and ask you if you want fries with that first.

kinetic · Apr 18, 2004

Can you tell I hate lawyers?

Kalel · Apr 19, 2004

kinetic said:
Can you tell I hate lawyers?

Don't we all. Anyways, regarding the lifestyle issues, I think that everbody should just try to do whatever specialty they enjoy doing and then hope to get paid as much as possible for doing that specialty. I think that JAMA recently published a study that suggested that specialty income didn't correlate very highly or at all with satisfaction with one's job. That being said, I do find it amusing how when you poll med students about whether or not income is important in picking a specialty to them, and many will say no; but then the specialties that are the most competetive specialties are things like derm and radiology, where you get a lot of money for hours that are oftentimes much more favorable then other specialties. I don't think that that there's anything wrong with that either, as another user mentioned, we worked hard in med school and residency and we do sacrifice a lot to get to the attending level. I don't think that it's unreasonable for us to want to be able to pay back our ridiculously high student loans and be able to afford to send our kids to college for all of our work. The new generation of physician definitely has a different attitude then the older generation regarding lifestyle issues (ie salary and hours), but I don't think that's unreasonable either. Wanting a good salary and reasonable hours is not mutually exclusive with providing good patient care.

Hudson · Apr 19, 2004

Medicine is the only profession that makes you feel like you should apologize for wanting a good lifestyle. Medicine is great, but so is being financially stable, taking vacations with your family, god forbid having a few hobbies outside of medicine, and having enough time to sit back and enjoy life a little. I think it used to be much easier to justify busting your butt as say a general surgeon when you got paid twice as much, had more control over your practice, did not get sued for frivolous reasons, and paid a resonable malpractice premium. There is nothing wrong for wanting to get compensated well for 7-11 years of post-graduate education. Just my 2 cents... balance is the key.

NaeBlis · Apr 19, 2004

kinetic said:
Any of you guys actually care about what you're doing, rather than how little you'll have to do it? This is what pisses me off about medicine (small 'm'). All of you lame-o people who tell residency directors and fellowship directors, "ever since I was two-and-a-half I have always wanted to be a [plug the high paying specialty here] ...I would give my left nut-sack to be a [plug the high paying specialty here] and have ritually killed my spouse and sacrificed him/her in the name of [that specialty]." When all you really want to know is "how much can I make for working as little as possible and seeing no patients while I impress the guys/gals with my flashy M.D."

You have two nut-sacks!?
Both of my nuts are in the same sack. Lucky bastard. :laugh:

Seaglass · Apr 19, 2004

Both of my nuts are in the same sack. Lucky bastard.

Technically, they're not. Unless you suffer from some bizzare birth defect.

C

kinetic · Apr 20, 2004

Kalel said:
I think that everbody should just try to do whatever specialty they enjoy doing and then hope to get paid as much as possible for doing that specialty.

Ah, but we all know that's not what happens, don't we? Anyone here gonna pretend that many (not ALL) of the people in lifestyle professions didn't pick them BASED ON lifestyle and not on love of the profession? You've seen it: they whittle down their choices to Derm/Optho/Radiology/ED/Anesthesiology/PM&R and then decide from there which to go into based on how qualified (i.e., competitive) they are. Those are quite diverse specialties and it's quite odd that all the "lifestylers" always happen to have "love" for the same specialties. What do they all have in common? Less time, more money, or both (the "jackpot").

Again, if you got the spot, you earned it and you deserve it. You're smarter than me (or more rarely just have better connections, but that's another subject) and I'm not saying I deserve your spot. But telling me you're in it because you love the specialty? Puh-leeeze! You may be selling, but I ain't buying.

Kalel said:
I think that JAMA recently published a study that suggested that specialty income didn't correlate very highly or at all with satisfaction with one's job.

I think that just backs up what I said. If these people all loved their work, they would be in happy fun land. Doing what you love, making lots of dough, having prestige as a doctor, AND working relatively few hours? If that doesn't make you do cartwheels, what would? UNLESS you really aren't doing what you ostensibly love.

Kalel said:
I do find it amusing how when you poll med students about whether or not income is important in picking a specialty to them, and many will say no; but then the specialties that are the most competetive specialties are things like derm and radiology, where you get a lot of money for hours that are oftentimes much more favorable then other specialties.

Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. 90% of us feel like we have to mouth the old "I am in it solely for the love of helping patients and bettering humanity; growing up I always saw men with alopecia and felt the urge - no, the NEED - to reach out and help them overcome this debilitating disease." Pure hypocrisy. And even better is the fact that these people will defend it to the death. "That may be true of one or two people, but the rest of us really DID go to medical school so that we could knock people out and watch their vital signs for four hours straight while sitting behind a blue sheet listening to beeps". It's funny how, once the money starts going downhill, your "love" suddenly dries up. (And this is also true of all the losers who cause the waxing and waning of medical school applications based on current reimbursement rates.)

mcataz · Apr 22, 2004

kinetic said:
mcatz, nobody said these people weren't qualified. Of course they are intelligent people - much more so than me. And nobody is insinuating that anyone should NOT be allowed to go into something they are qualified to do. Got that? Not me, not anyone. You worked hard to get into Derm or Ortho or Allergy, etc. - THAT'S GREAT. I applaud you.

BUT to say that these people chose their profession based solely on being passionate about it is just plain wrong. I have known many people who chose their specialty based on lifestyle FIRST AND FOREMOST. Then, AFTER picking that lifestyle specialty, they did the whole research, score well, etc. thing to get into it. And they said, "I'm working hard now so that I can relax in a few years." That sound like passion for work or for play to you?

Does that make them bad people? NO. Does that mean that ALL people in lifestyle specialties had that viewpoint? NO - but I have heard MANY that do. So what is my beef? People who in their OWN lives can make that choice and then turn around and lecture OTHERS about "you need to only care about patients and ignore money if you want to really be a doctor", etc. That's hypocrisy, do-what-I-say-not-what-I-do ...whatever you want to call it.

Kinetic

Good post, I see what you are getting at and I don't really disagree with what you are saying.

Sick of these "lifestyle" questions.

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