Earning potential in IM lifestyle specialities

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Well it’s just revenue . Still gottta pay the staff of course. But that overheard is unlikely to drop the physicians take home pay too far down unless one is hiring excessively . In Practice some of these 99213 mills see far higher numbers of patients. It’s just a thought exercise . Sure beats the 150K starting academic pcp salary in nyc .
Most clinic overhead I’ve seen (including my old physician owned group) is 50-60%. How low do you think staffing/overhead can get before you negatively impact operations?

I’ve played around with the idea of opening up own shop with very low overhead, but am concerned about being too lean.

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agreed and appreciated

I work 80-90 hours like a resident / fellow still but i rake in much more. but that's not a flex to say "i'm better" far from it.
it just highlights that each doctor should decide what he/she wants to do.
less work less total revenue but better home life/personal life?
or grind pedal to the metal and squeeze every bit of juice out of this golden goose while we still can?

no right answer. one decides for oneself.


fortunately int he current EMR era i can do most of the paperwork at home with my kids nearby

i cannot imagine this would be feasible in a pre-EMR era.

What emr do you use for outpatient?
 
Most clinic overhead I’ve seen (including my old physician owned group) is 50-60%. How low do you think staffing/overhead can get before you negatively impact operations?

I’ve played around with the idea of opening up own shop with very low overhead, but am concerned about being too lean.
depends what subspecialty

if just GIM, doctor himself/herself does the nursing work, janitorial work, prior auths, phlebotomy, vaccine admin, check your own billing and coding (which honestly billing a bunch of basic 99213s is not too bad)
buy the space outright (somee doctosr operate out of a house or apartment in some neighborhoors rather than some fancy office building)

litearlly just have two secretaries and haev your family / spouse check billing finances for you

far from an "academic practice" but just saying this is how many of the 99213 PCP mills operate in NYC.
quality sucks? you betcha. but as long as the subspecialists are nearby (i.e. me for example) to treat the "basics" then everything works out fine for these PCPs.

point is many PP doctors whether through generation of a lot of revenue from office based procedures for certain subspecialists or just running a 99213 mill can generate far more revenue than MGMA salaries. how much salary the physician then takes home for himself herself ultimately depends on the running a lean business model.

these same doctors won't be doing surveys for MGMA.


I would imagine there is no real way to "mill" run a rheumatology practice. there is way too much to do and talk about.
 
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depends what subspecialty

if just GIM, doctor himself/herself does the nursing work, janitorial work, prior auths, phlebotomy, vaccine admin, check your own billing and coding (which honestly billing a bunch of basic 99213s is not too bad)
buy the space outright (somee doctosr operate out of a house or apartment in some neighborhoors rather than some fancy office building)

litearlly just have two secretaries and haev your family / spouse check billing finances for you

far from an "academic practice" but just saying this is how many of the 99213 PCP mills operate in NYC.
quality sucks? you betcha. but as long as the subspecialists are nearby (i.e. me for example) to treat the "basics" then everything works out fine for these PCPs.

point is many PP doctors whether through generation of a lot of revenue from office based procedures for certain subspecialists or just running a 99213 mill can generate far more revenue than MGMA salaries. how much salary the physician then takes home for himself herself ultimately depends on the running a lean business model.

these same doctors won't be doing surveys for MGMA.


I would imagine there is no real way to "mill" run a rheumatology practice. there is way too much to do and talk about.
Only way to do mill for rheum is semi pain clinic. But then again those visits are always level 4, very few level 3.

Even if you see 20 level 4, that’s pretty good income if overhead is low.
 
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depends what subspecialty

if just GIM, doctor himself/herself does the nursing work, janitorial work, prior auths, phlebotomy, vaccine admin, check your own billing and coding (which honestly billing a bunch of basic 99213s is not too bad)
buy the space outright (somee doctosr operate out of a house or apartment in some neighborhoors rather than some fancy office building)

litearlly just have two secretaries and haev your family / spouse check billing finances for you

far from an "academic practice" but just saying this is how many of the 99213 PCP mills operate in NYC.
quality sucks? you betcha. but as long as the subspecialists are nearby (i.e. me for example) to treat the "basics" then everything works out fine for these PCPs.

point is many PP doctors whether through generation of a lot of revenue from office based procedures for certain subspecialists or just running a 99213 mill can generate far more revenue than MGMA salaries. how much salary the physician then takes home for himself herself ultimately depends on the running a lean business model.

these same doctors won't be doing surveys for MGMA.


I would imagine there is no real way to "mill" run a rheumatology practice. there is way too much to do and talk about.

My partner tries to do it (30/day), but his quality of care is frankly abysmal.

20-25/day with ancillaries will still do very well.
 
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one fairly easy ancillary that some of the PCP offices in NYC do is invite third party companies to use office space to perform certain procedures for their patients. they get some fixed amount per month depends on what they negotiate with these third party companies

these third party companies usually involve a mobile radiology company for ultrasound and (cardiology interpreted) echocardiograms, mobile full PFT systems (that use helium dilution technology so its portable), autonomic nervous system sudomotor testing (which quite frankly no clue what this is even for... practically I mean), and allergy skin testing (liability goes to the testing company).

i dont bother with the latter few. but I do have a mobile ultrasound company come the office every day. its more used for the primary care patients I oversee (vague abdominal pain that is not indigestion or GERD, check abdominal and retroperitoneal. High ASCVD risk - check for atherschloeriss in carotid, aorta, follow up those TIRADS4 myself without concern of patient not following up outside radiology etc) .

But having instant access to a TTE (cardiology interprted) and DVT study (the technician will tell me if a DVT or bakerys cyst is there or if "prelim negative" (translation - no DVT but formal radiologist report for the lawyers pending) is very helpful for my pulmonary patients of course.

I mean I can do a POCUS DVT Study myself but... takes way too long to do... and I would not have the formal radiology study.
 
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Well it’s just revenue . Still gottta pay the staff of course. But that overheard is unlikely to drop the physicians take home pay too far down unless one is hiring excessively . In Practice some of these 99213 mills see far higher numbers of patients. It’s just a thought exercise . Sure beats the 150K starting academic pcp salary in nyc .

Overhead can be higher than one might think. I just saw multiple primary care and subspecialty private practices close due to rising costs and decreasing reimbursement. Employment can make more sense in many locations.
 
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Overhead can be higher than one might think. I just saw multiple primary care and subspecialty private practices close due to rising costs and decreasing reimbursement. Employment can make more sense in many locations.
generally true statement and applicable to most doctors

but the "thriving" 99213 mills in NYC cut corners everywhere and the doctor himself herself does a lot more than just doctoring work

just saying that's how these mills operate and generate more money than that MGMA surveys would seem to indicate.
 
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one fairly easy ancillary that some of the PCP offices in NYC do is invite third party companies to use office space to perform certain procedures for their patients. they get some fixed amount per month depends on what they negotiate with these third party companies

these third party companies usually involve a mobile radiology company for ultrasound and (cardiology interpreted) echocardiograms, mobile full PFT systems (that use helium dilution technology so its portable), autonomic nervous system sudomotor testing (which quite frankly no clue what this is even for... practically I mean), and allergy skin testing (liability goes to the testing company).

i dont bother with the latter few. but I do have a mobile ultrasound company come the office every day. its more used for the primary care patients I oversee (vague abdominal pain that is not indigestion or GERD, check abdominal and retroperitoneal. High ASCVD risk - check for atherschloeriss in carotid, aorta, follow up those TIRADS4 myself without concern of patient not following up outside radiology etc) .

But having instant access to a TTE (cardiology interprted) and DVT study (the technician will tell me if a DVT or bakerys cyst is there or if "prelim negative" (translation - no DVT but formal radiologist report for the lawyers pending) is very helpful for my pulmonary patients of course.

I mean I can do a POCUS DVT Study myself but... takes way too long to do... and I would not have the formal radiology study.

Agree that there can be a wide variety of possibilities for ancillaries, depending on what property you own etc.

When I worked in Alabama, one of the biggest ancillaries was from a parking garage that the practice owned…a busy parking garage in an area with little parking can be very profitable.
 
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No its not DO unfriendly but the kicker is most allergy programs are at big academic centers so coming from a community IM or peds program can make it more challenging than being a DO at an academic program. However, coming from a community program does not in any way shape or form preclude you from matching Allergy. I would suggest DOs who want to match Allergy prepare an app in med school that will be competitive enough for an academic program in peds or IM to maximize chances of matching. Allergy is middle competitiveness of all the subspecialties-in order of competitiveness I would say:
1. GI
2. Cards
3. H/O
4. PCCM
5. Allergy
6. Rheum
7. ID
8. Endo
9. Nephro

Regardless, the match rate for Allergy is actually quite high at around 80%
This year allergy was the third most competitive speciality. Even more competitive than heme onc. Guess the word on allergy is out.
 
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This year allergy was the third most competitive speciality. Even more competitive than heme onc. Guess the word on allergy is out.
i know haha allergy has gotten quite competitive. Understanably so with incredible lifestyle/hrs paired with great income (more specifically on avg has the highest income of all the traditional non-procedural IM subspecialties)

Edit: Onc then Allergy
 
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i know haha allergy has gotten quite competitive. Understandably so with incredible lifestyle/hrs paired with great income (more specifically on avg has the highest income of all the traditional non-procedural IM subspecialties)
idk if allergy has the highest, per mgma onc is 540k vs allergy at 360k. agree allergy is #2 of the non-procedural subs though, and likely has somewhat of a better lifestyle
 
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Average income on MGMA honestly isn't as important as the market itself, which isn't a readily available data point. You want a high demand/low supply specialty, even if the "average income" isn't all that high. This means you can amass a huge patient load and bank those RVUs if you're in a non-saturated area.
In a saturated area, it can mean the difference between finding A job versus not.
 
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idk if allergy has the highest, per mgma onc is 540k vs allergy at 360k. agree allergy is #2 of the non-procedural subs though, and likely has somewhat of a better lifestyle
I totally forgot about onc lmao youre 100% correct onc is without question higher paying. I also think that although MGMA is the most accurate of all of the salary reports i still think true salaries are higher than what is reported there for all specialties for obvious reasons haha of course there are so many factors that go into determining salaries (location, physician saturation in said area, academics vs employed vs PP, practice model etc)
 
Average income on MGMA honestly isn't as important as the market itself, which isn't a readily available data point. You want a high demand/low supply specialty, even if the "average income" isn't all that high. This means you can amass a huge patient load and bank those RVUs if you're in a non-saturated area.
In a saturated area, it can mean the difference between finding A job versus not.
I agree with this. One endo makes around 1 million a year just by seeing 70-80 patients a day. 5-10 minutes each with one liner notes. Neuro making 1 million seeing 60-70 patients a day. Heard some rheuma making ~1 million seeing 30-40 a day with infusion profit sharing at a community hospital employed in South East rural area. I guess it's all about volume in outpatient specialities.
 
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I agree with this. One endo makes around 1 million a year just by seeing 70-80 patients a day. 5-10 minutes each with one liner notes. Neuro making 1 million seeing 60-70 patients a day. Heard some rheuma making ~1 million seeing 30-40 a day with infusion profit sharing at a community hospital employed in South East rural area. I guess it's all about volume in outpatient specialities.
I have also seen endos seeing 50/day making close to 7 figures. You can honestly close your eyes, and pick a place on the map for endo due to the shortage.

Allergy on the other hand is a haves and have not game. The guys who got into the hot market before it completely saturated are making bank whereas newer grads have very limited job options. Even in my semi rural locale, there are somehow 3 allergists fighting for business. I see way more pts than the other one employed by the hospital.
The endo wait here is like 6 months minimum.
 
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I have also seen endos seeing 50/day making close to 7 figures. You can honestly close your eyes, and pick a place on the map for endo due to the shortage.

Allergy on the other hand is a haves and have not game. The guys who got into the hot market before it completely saturated are making bank whereas newer grads have very limited job options. Even in my semi rural locale, there are somehow 3 allergists fighting for business. I see way more pts than the other one employed by the hospital.
The endo wait here is like 6 months minimum.

I have a friend who finished allergy fellowship 1-2 years ago. She was looking hard for a job in SoCal. Pretty saturated here and she ended up with a job at Kaiser. Max 370k with benefits included. Not that great
IMG_6882.png
 
I have also seen endos seeing 50/day making close to 7 figures. You can honestly close your eyes, and pick a place on the map for endo due to the shortage.

Allergy on the other hand is a haves and have not game. The guys who got into the hot market before it completely saturated are making bank whereas newer grads have very limited job options. Even in my semi rural locale, there are somehow 3 allergists fighting for business. I see way more pts than the other one employed by the hospital.
The endo wait here is like 6 months minimum.
the private endos around where I am also make 7 but they see GIM/PCP also.
 
I have a friend who finished allergy fellowship 1-2 years ago. She was looking hard for a job in SoCal. Pretty saturated here and she ended up with a job at Kaiser. Max 370k with benefits included. Not that great View attachment 385641
Yeah thats an employed job youre going to make less than PP. I agree that Socal is oversaturated but this is one person
 
I have also seen endos seeing 50/day making close to 7 figures. You can honestly close your eyes, and pick a place on the map for endo due to the shortage.

Allergy on the other hand is a haves and have not game. The guys who got into the hot market before it completely saturated are making bank whereas newer grads have very limited job options. Even in my semi rural locale, there are somehow 3 allergists fighting for business. I see way more pts than the other one employed by the hospital.
The endo wait here is like 6 months minimum.
@hotsaws can you comment on this apparent widespread allergy “saturation” and “very limited job options”?
 
How about a poll of physicians in the specialty
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Endos making that kind of money is exceptionally rare
right because its essentially do PCP mill with endo on the side.
lifestyle - sacrificed at the altar of the "all ighty ollar."


(anyone get that 90s reference?)
 
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I thought all surgical specialties were thriving with awesome job markets.
 
I thought all surgical specialties were thriving with awesome job markets.
Ortho is easily one of the more saturated specialties out there. I have never seen a place - urban, suburban, semi-rural, rural - that wasn’t literally overrun with orthopods.
 
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right because its essentially do PCP mill with endo on the side.
lifestyle - sacrificed at the altar of the "all ighty ollar."


(anyone get that 90s reference?)
So are they working part time as PCP and other part time as an Endo doctor? Is it not possible to do that by only doing Endo since it's in demand and has long wait times?
 
I agree with this. One endo makes around 1 million a year just by seeing 70-80 patients a day. 5-10 minutes each with one liner notes. Neuro making 1 million seeing 60-70 patients a day. Heard some rheuma making ~1 million seeing 30-40 a day with infusion profit sharing at a community hospital employed in South East rural area. I guess it's all about volume in outpatient specialities.
Endo seeing 70-80 patients a day?? HOW?
 
Trainees need to look at this chart and not mgma when they decide what to apply for.
Huh? Id wayyy rather make Plastics ortho or rad onc money than Psych Rheum or Neuro money even though they have far worse job markets. Using job market to pick a specialty sounds pretty silly. Were physicians at the end of the day were all going to eventually find a job that fits
 
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I can tell you right now thats not true. Thats actually impossible whoever the source is is grossly exaggerating
not really. this is how private practice "mills" actually run in the community


hey no one said this is was "good quality care."

think... give the patient whatever they want and do not do full workups or anything "by the book."

If there is a short cut and a proper full way, do the former.


This mill practice is a bit easier as PCP where no one expects you to do a good job
 
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So are they working part time as PCP and other part time as an Endo doctor? Is it not possible to do that by only doing Endo since it's in demand and has long wait times?
this one doc in the same IPA as I does PCP and endo.
He has his own PCP panel. He does not do "patient centered medical home" primary care. he's an older doctor and does that fractured "drive by primary care." AS for endocrine, he takes consultations and sees them as any office visit.
Endocrine synergizes well with a PCP practice as its just talking, diagnosing, order lab tests and imaging, reviewing it, and referring to an appropriate surgeon as needed.
 
not really. this is how private practice "mills" actually run in the community


hey no one said this is was "good quality care."

think... give the patient whatever they want and do not do full workups or anything "by the book."

If there is a short cut and a proper full way, do the former.


This mill practice is a bit easier as PCP where no one expects you to do a good job
I still dont buy it. 80 is legit impossible there arent enough hours in a work day for that. 50-60 is pushing it but probably possible if ur flyinf. Unless youre leveraging with midlevels and MAs and counting the midlevel visits as ur own thats literally impossible
 
Huh? Id wayyy rather make Plastics ortho or rad onc money than Psych Rheum or Neuro money even though they have far worse job markets. Using job market to pick a specialty sounds pretty silly. Were physicians at the end of the day were all going to eventually find a job that fits
For some people location matters a lot. And specialties like rad onc for these people is a really bad pick.
 
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Huh? Id wayyy rather make Plastics ortho or rad onc money than Psych Rheum or Neuro money even though they have far worse job markets. Using job market to pick a specialty sounds pretty silly. Were physicians at the end of the day were all going to eventually find a job that fits
I’m not saying go exactly by this graph. I’m saying if one is thinking surgical specialty then I’d go urology over ortho or plastics due to job market even if mgma is lower. If one is thinking outpatient IM specialty, I would still recommend rheum/endo over allergy due to job market.

Rad onc lol ok.
 
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I’m not saying go exactly by this graph. I’m saying if one is thinking surgical specialty then I’d go urology over ortho or plastics due to job market even if mgma is lower. If one is thinking outpatient IM specialty, I would still recommend rheum/endo over allergy due to job market.

Rad onc lol ok.
That graph is based on a survey of doctors not the actual job market. The better data is from recruiting firms that basically list how many positions they are looking for in each specialty.
 
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That graph is based on a survey of doctors not the actual job market. The better data is from recruiting firms that basically list how many positions they are looking for in each specialty.
True, but I don't know that recruiting firms are making their data public. Would be interesting to see if anyone has access to this.

An alternative but less reliable method would be to just use job sites and see how many listings are there for each specialty, though I suspect it would closely track this graph.
Overall, I would be surprised if the real data deviated substantially from this survey since doctors usually are able to keep a good tab on the pulse of their job market.
 
True, but I don't know that recruiting firms are making their data public. Would be interesting to see if anyone has access to this.

An alternative but less reliable method would be to just use job sites and see how many listings are there for each specialty, though I suspect it would closely track this graph.
Overall, I would be surprised if the real data deviated substantially from this survey since doctors usually are able to keep a good tab on the pulse of their job market.
I’ll say for PM&R this survey is reasonably correct for metros and highly desirable areas.

And if you go to Rad Onc forum, it’s DEFINITELY on the money.
 
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True, but I don't know that recruiting firms are making their data public. Would be interesting to see if anyone has access to this.

An alternative but less reliable method would be to just use job sites and see how many listings are there for each specialty, though I suspect it would closely track this graph.
Overall, I would be surprised if the real data deviated substantially from this survey since doctors usually are able to keep a good tab on the pulse of their job market.
 
Good to know.

However, this data is compiled from active engagements with prospective employers. This will always skew towards larger specialties. A small specialty may have a fantastic job market but won’t be a top 10 most searched.
 
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True, but I don't know that recruiting firms are making their data public. Would be interesting to see if anyone has access to this.

An alternative but less reliable method would be to just use job sites and see how many listings are there for each specialty, though I suspect it would closely track this graph.
Overall, I would be surprised if the real data deviated substantially from this survey since doctors usually are able to keep a good tab on the pulse of their job market.
I’d be really careful using recruiting data to talk about the market. There’s a reason these places need a recruiter. 90% of the emails I get tell me how charming the city is, and then list the nearest small to maybe medium size city 75+ miles away. I’ve been getting emails from at least 5 different recruiters about one job for almost a decade.
 
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I have a friend who finished allergy fellowship 1-2 years ago. She was looking hard for a job in SoCal. Pretty saturated here and she ended up with a job at Kaiser. Max 370k with benefits included. Not that great View attachment 385641
also i think this not really that bad of a deal considering it is in socal and kaiser employed with benefits and retirement options. Also it is for a low stress job like allergy. PP rheuma in socal makes around ~350k. PP allergy think would be def more pay but it is true that pp options specially with partnership track is not as available as rhuema or endo. Most of the allergy pp with partnership tracks are job through mouth and matching at a fellowship in the locale you want to work is highly important
 
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also i think this not really that bad of a deal considering it is in socal and kaiser employed with benefits and retirement options. Also it is for a low stress job like allergy. PP rheuma in socal makes around ~350k. PP allergy think would be def more pay but it is true that pp options specially with partnership track is not as available as rhuema or endo. Most of the allergy pp with partnership tracks are job through mouth and matching at a fellowship in the locale you want to work is highly important

Ya I feel like pp allergy gigs where you could make 500-600k+ after partnership more common years ago
 
Ya I feel like pp allergy gigs where you could make 500-600k+ after partnership more common years ago
This is so untrue lol i think your thinking of rheum infusion centers and nephro dialysis gigs which is a thing of the past. There are plentt of PP partnership track gigs out there how can you even comment on this anyways are you an allergist, A/I fellow or applying allergy? how/why would you know this
 
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Positions in the 2024 match versus advertised jobs on PracticeLink:

Allergy: 169 positions, 70 jobs
Rheum: 276 positions, 364 jobs
Endo: 379 positions, 496 jobs

With 4/5 physicians now employed and private practice in major metros continuing to die due to decreasing reimbursements and exponential inflationary growth in overhead, I would be very cautious about going into allergy. Would especially caution against going into it with the dreams of banking as a partner in a private practice, those days are going away. Plus, encroachment from the ENT/pulmonary types can be very prevalent in major metros (mine is notorious for this). The salary surveys are not 100% accurate due to high prevalence of mommy-track type folks in rheum/endo, so income potential is pretty much the same between the 3. IMO, one is much better off with a specialty thats in demand and allows geographical flexibility than the extra $50k annually on a salary survey.
 
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Positions in the 2024 match versus advertised jobs on PracticeLink:

Allergy: 169 positions, 70 jobs
Rheum: 276 positions, 364 jobs
Endo: 379 positions, 496 jobs

With 4/5 physicians now employed and private practice in major metros continuing to die due to decreasing reimbursements and exponential inflationary growth in overhead, I would be very cautious about going into allergy. Would especially caution against going into it with the dreams of banking as a partner in a private practice, those days are going away. Plus, encroachment from the ENT/pulmonary types can be very prevalent in major metros (mine is notorious for this). The salary surveys are not 100% accurate due to high prevalence of mommy-track type folks in rheum/endo, so income potential is pretty much the same between the 3. IMO, one is much better off with a specialty thats in demand and allows geographical flexibility than the extra $50k annually on a salary survey.
Interesting way to quantify demand, I like it.

Additionally:
Onc: 671 positions, 921 jobs
Cards: 1108 positions, 1066 jobs
GI: 648 positions, 1968 jobs
 
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This is so untrue lol i think your thinking of rheum infusion centers and nephro dialysis gigs which is a thing of the past. There are plentt of PP partnership track gigs out there how can you even comment on this anyways are you an allergist, A/I fellow or applying allergy? how/why would you know this
Current fellow about to enter second year, applying to jobs now. What they’re saying is definitely true. PP in a desirable place to live, with partnership is way less common than before. There are a bunch of these opportunities in areas that are “close to metropolitan areas” but those are usually in rural areas that are “only a short 1.5 hour drive to a metropolitan area!” It’s way more common now to be in an employed position seeing 20 patients a day if you wanna live in a fun place. What ends up happening to most is they get tired of being employed and start their own practice after a few years. At least according to my alumni and seniors. FWIW I’m in the northeast looking at all areas across the U.S.
 
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This is so untrue lol i think your thinking of rheum infusion centers and nephro dialysis gigs which is a thing of the past. There are plentt of PP partnership track gigs out there how can you even comment on this anyways are you an allergist, A/I fellow or applying allergy? how/why would you know this
I just remember as a medical student (2011-2015) A/I was coveted as a specialty that made 100-200k more than hospitalist. Doesn’t seem to be the case anymore in metros.
 
I agree with this. One endo makes around 1 million a year just by seeing 70-80 patients a day. 5-10 minutes each with one liner notes. Neuro making 1 million seeing 60-70 patients a day. Heard some rheuma making ~1 million seeing 30-40 a day with infusion profit sharing at a community hospital employed in South East rural area. I guess it's all about volume in outpatient specialities.

It also depends on how good of a doctor you want to be.

Every locale in which I’ve had a job has a rheumatologist seeing 30/day in an attempt to “make bank” - and every one of these rheumatologists has sucked hard as a doctor. I usually have a stream of patient refugees leaving these clinics to come see me to clean up the mess. There’s only so much corner cutting you can do in medicine before your quality of care turns to complete garbage.

If you want money, focus on specialties where you can make bank while seeing a reasonable volume of patients each day.
 
This is so untrue lol i think your thinking of rheum infusion centers and nephro dialysis gigs which is a thing of the past. There are plentt of PP partnership track gigs out there how can you even comment on this anyways are you an allergist, A/I fellow or applying allergy? how/why would you know this

The rheum infusion center thing isn’t a thing of the past, either.

Happy to post my $540k W2 if you don’t believe me.
 
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