I could really use some advice...

Hi, guys, thanks for reading (and responding?). I'm in the process of getting myself ready to apply (not this year, though), but I'm looking for any insight or opinion you might have.

I recently graduated from an Ivy League university with a degree in the physical sciences. However, my GPA just isn't where it needs to be (~3.1). I know it needs work, and I'm willing to do what it takes, but I wonder how I should go about doing it. I've been looking at the different post-bacc programs, and while the formal ones seems really helpful, my state universities (I'm in California) seem to have a lot of resources, too.

My main concern is how it would look to an adcom to see an Ivy League graduate take upper level science courses at a state university. I feel like people put so much stock in names, so I am somehow going "backwards" if I go the state university route? Would it be more beneficial if I went for a Master's instead?

Again, I appreciate your responses.

No going to a state school is not going to be a downgrade. Your GPA is not terrible, but you need some other impressive things to make up for it.

Also, doing something during your post-bac that would actually show some contribution to society or science or whatever would be great. Reseach, charity work abroad for a significant period of time, starting a usefull organization. These types of things along with a solid resume will get you into more competitive medical schools with a mediocre GPA. (score well on your MCAT too).

You are going to have to get over the "big fish/little pond" problem. If you do very, very well at a second tier (or lower) school after having a B average at an Ivy, it looks as if you can do well if the competition is academically weak but not do well in a school where the students are selected for their academic prowess. Master's programs have the "grade inflation" problem... no one gets less than a 3.0 in a master's program (it would be grounds for dismissal in many programs) and therefore even good grades are pretty much meaningless. Do take some courses at the most competitive school you can manage, do well and rock the MCAT.

Make sure the rest of your application is dead-on: extra-curriculars of some kind during college (what were you doing when you weren't studying? include it even if it doesn't seem relevant, even if you haven't "contact names and phone numbers"), clinical exposure, research experience, some evidence of concern for the needs of others (service to society in some form), great letters of recommendation, excellent essays (AMCAS and supplementals) that speak to a change in you, a maturing, that results in better academic performance and a description of your career goals and why you have chosen medicine.

Thank you so much, LizzyM and DrNick. I will take everything you've said into consideration as I plan my next steps.

Lizzy M, is that really what admissions committees (would) think of lesser-known state universities? I know Ivies are Ivies (and even they can be overrated), but that sort of puts people who can't go to well-known schools at a greater disadvantage. I feel like a lot of the state schools are great.

deplane said:

Thank you so much, LizzyM and DrNick. I will take everything you've said into consideration as I plan my next steps.

Lizzy M, is that really what admissions committees (would) think of lesser-known state universities? I know Ivies are Ivies (and even they can be overrated), but that sort of puts people who can't go to well-known schools at a greater disadvantage. I feel like a lot of the state schools are great.

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There are state schools that are academic powerhouses (aka "the public Ivies") . When you say "well-known" school what you may mean is a school that is difficult to get into. There are also some relatively unknown schools that are hard to get into. They might not be household names (Williams is one that comes to mind) but they are known in adcom circles as expeptionally good schools. Then there are those "well-known" schools that are known best not for their academics but for sports (see how many get NCAA bids this afternoon...)

If what you mean by "people who can't go to well-known schools" you mean those who go to schools that are easy to get into and schools that are known for not being very academically demanding (these can be state schools or private), we look for someone who has an excellent gpa (bright fish in a pond without much competition) and an MCAT that is equal or better to the class average. Having an excellent MCAT shows that there isn't a "big fish" thing going on but that head to head with the students from the "big-name" schools, this student is in the same league.

You *will* be compared with other Ivy grads. The 3.x from the Ivy is the first thing an adcom member will notice. The second thing is the MCAT. Then the post-bach courses. Your essay will need to address how you overcame whatever was going on during your undergrad years (or what you were doing that made academics a low priority --- sports, musical performance, journalism etc) that left you with a sub-par gpa.

LizzyM said:

You are going to have to get over the "big fish/little pond" problem. If you do very, very well at a second tier (or lower) school after having a B average at an Ivy, it looks as if you can do well if the competition is academically weak but not do well in a school where the students are selected for their academic prowess. Master's programs have the "grade inflation" problem... no one gets less than a 3.0 in a master's program (it would be grounds for dismissal in many programs) and therefore even good grades are pretty much meaningless. Do take some courses at the most competitive school you can manage, do well and rock the MCAT.

Make sure the rest of your application is dead-on: extra-curriculars of some kind during college (what were you doing when you weren't studying? include it even if it doesn't seem relevant, even if you haven't "contact names and phone numbers"), clinical exposure, research experience, some evidence of concern for the needs of others (service to society in some form), great letters of recommendation, excellent essays (AMCAS and supplementals) that speak to a change in you, a maturing, that results in better academic performance and a description of your career goals and why you have chosen medicine.

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What if the situation was that he took a special masters program???? Wouldn't that be a good route because you are competing with med students and taking their same classes??? Or would it still be better to do another year of undergrad postbac?????? Just curious for your take on that issue. Thanks LizzyM. You are soooo helpful.

Are you just taking Post-Bacc/Masters because you think you need to or should?

I don't necessarily think it would be necessary for you. My feeling is that you aren't really that excited about a Post-Bacc thing.

Maybe taking a year off, getting a job in a hospital, doing some serious community volunteer stuff (Habitat for Humanity, Mentoring, or something you are really interested in that helps other people), and studying your cheeks off for the MCAT would be a better way to spend your time (and money for that matter).

Some adcoms will think that a year getting ready to be a doctor would be more impressive than a year or two of graduate school.

Lizzy M had good advice about Master's grade inflation. I have found many people who rocked their Masters course work but were still hampered by their undergrad grades. Those two years you are making good grades in a Masters program might not mean all that much. Post-bacc, on the other hand, may give you a good chance to retake the pre-med-pre-req's that you need to show everyone you can master. They would also help with MCAT prep.

On a final note. I don't think your grades are irreconcilable. (1) a 3.1 at an Ivy is different than a 3.1 at another school, and (2) an MCAT score in the mid-30s will make your 3.1 less important. Just make the rest of your application out-'shine' your undergrad GPA.

i can only use my own experience on this one:
i graduated from an ivy with a sub-par GPA (well for med school anyway) similar to you, however, i majored in a social science--so i only have BCPM gpa from the pre-reqs and not much from other sci scourses. with that said, i decided to take a microbio class at my state U and fell in LOVE with biology! and i mean LOVE. man, i wish i had experienced this during undergrad, woulda had great opportunities! anyway, from that, i enrolled in their informal and unknown post-bac program (very flexible in the bio and chem courses you could take) so i got to learn in a year what most bio majors learn in four. post-bacs are great-as long as you did not already take those classes in undergrad. obviosuly my GPA jumped way up, and the post-bac GPA is included in the undergrad GPA with AMCAS-so it helps you out a lot. the grad GPA is kept separate. i also kept on going for my master's after the post-bac, cuz hey, i already took some classes, what's 22 more credits anyway, and did i mention i love bio? (cell signalling rocks 🙂 anyway, i would suggest in doing the post-bac and taking a lot of classes in it and doing well to boost up that GPA. i did ok on the MCATs (i did retake them during grad school though and scored higher). i also got involved in ECs and showed long-term committment. i don't regret my decision and during interviews, it was brought up what i did, , but it was more like how you direct the convo--why i chose to do it, what i got from it, how it helped in my self-development--all relevant to becoming a physician.
wow, sorry for the long post, but i hope i helped.

LizzyM,

If you get a chance to read this, would you respond to my question above about SMP programs vs. postbac??? Thanks in advance.

gujuDoc said:

LizzyM,

If you get a chance to read this, would you respond to my question above about SMP programs vs. postbac??? Thanks in advance.

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post bac programs are usually designed for people who havent done the premed requirements so if youve already taken them, then its not for you. the SMP is for people who have taken them but didnt do too well and want to show the adcoms that they can handle science classes and who can do well in medical school.

DrHuang said:

post bac programs are usually designed for people who havent done the premed requirements so if youve already taken them, then its not for you. the SMP is for people who have taken them but didnt do too well and want to show the adcoms that they can handle science classes and who can do well in medical school.

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Well stated. A mid-30s MCAT and a couple years of excellent experience will mitigate the "below average" gpa. For experience, either in a lab (NIH & Harvard are two that I often see) or clinical coordinator position (human subjects research with patients) with perhaps a science course or two taken in the evening (again, very common, particularly with those working at Harvard affiliates) or a stint in some service organization (I've seen some very impressive candidates who have done "Teach for America") are good choices.

LizzyM said:

Well stated. A mid-30s MCAT and a couple years of excellent experience will mitigate the "below average" gpa. For experience, either in a lab (NIH & Harvard are two that I often see) or clinical coordinator position (human subjects research with patients) with perhaps a science course or two taken in the evening (again, very common, particularly with those working at Harvard affiliates) or a stint in some service organization (I've seen some very impressive candidates who have done "Teach for America") are good choices.

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Lizzy and Dr.Huang,

Thanks for the reply. It was helpful.

deplane said:

Hi, guys, thanks for reading (and responding?). I'm in the process of getting myself ready to apply (not this year, though), but I'm looking for any insight or opinion you might have.

I recently graduated from an Ivy League university with a degree in the physical sciences. However, my GPA just isn't where it needs to be (~3.1). I know it needs work, and I'm willing to do what it takes, but I wonder how I should go about doing it. I've been looking at the different post-bacc programs, and while the formal ones seems really helpful, my state universities (I'm in California) seem to have a lot of resources, too.

My main concern is how it would look to an adcom to see an Ivy League graduate take upper level science courses at a state university. I feel like people put so much stock in names, so I am somehow going "backwards" if I go the state university route? Would it be more beneficial if I went for a Master's instead?

Again, I appreciate your responses.

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Do you have any ECs at the moment???? It seems like you don't have any but maybe you just haven't posted if you do have them.

Other good volunteer opportunities include medical mission trips abroad, joining the Peace corps, mentoring at local schools, Reading to children in waiting rooms, etc. Clinical Research IRTA program through NIH is a good program if that is your thing.

Hey Deplane,
I was in your situation, with a BS in chemistry from Yale. I took my biology prereqs at UC Berkeley over the summer and at CSU Hayward over the year.
If I were you, I wouldn't sweat diluting the value of an ivy league, but be sure to get really great grades. I've been doing okay with my application this year:

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=4650

But that said, it would have been nice to be in a formal postbac program with peers and such. Also, it can be challenging to get into the intro science courses at the CSUs.

Good luck & feel free to contact me if you've got more questions!

Wow, thank you all for your replies. It's been really helpful.

To MN81: In reality, I do feel that I need to take courses. At my state schools, a 3.1 is a 3.1 is a 3.1, and just in case I can't put my MCAT score through the roof, I want to at least have a higher UGPA that will allow me to get my foot in the door before they weed me out for other reasons. Believe that I will do everything in my power to make the grade when it comes to the MCAT, but sometimes things just don't go our way. I at least want my application to get a look-see before it gets tossed, though.

I didn't mean to make it sound that way, but I have no problem with doing a post-bacc/taking extra courses. I've been out of school for about 10 months now, and what's surprising to me, is that I'm itching to get back in the classroom. Most of the post-baccs offered in California are either for those who haven't had all of the premed work, or who are re-applying...none of these are me. And I really wanted to stay in California because I've been away for over 7 years (I also did high school out of state), and I was hoping to get "reacquainted." It's a silly reason, maybe even a selfish one. But I figured there is the high possibility of going to medical school out of state should I be so fortunate to gain an acceptance, and I wanted to make the most of whatever time I could have here. I'm willing to do what it takes, though, and if that means leaving, then so be it.

To gujuDoc: I do have ECs under my belt; I just didn't think they were pertinent to the academic side of this situation, which is what I was concerned with. I'll be the first to admit that I could stand to have more, but I didn't want to start anything up if I would have to be leaving anyway. But there are some great opportunities near me that I would love to have a hand in, so I may just have to suck it up and go for them.

To LizzyM: When I wrote "well-known schools," I meant those schools that admissions committees know the academic rigor of, which I guess could include all of your definitions. I feel there could be schools that could be easier to get into than the extremely competitive schools, but still offer coursework similar to what you'd find at those same schools. A California State University could provide instruction at the same level of a place like U Chicago or BU (if not better), but admissions committees might not know that because these same schools are not producing many premed students or don't have connections at those schools so that they can make an assessment of the academic rigor of that school. Or maybe I just underestimate the knowledge of your average adcom. I know the Ivy name carries a bit of weight, as do the names of those schools that have put themselves in the spotlight for various reasons, but if you're going to give weight to a name, then I feel like a student from Hoosaw State University is automatically put at an unfair advantage, and that I (should I choose to take classes at Hoosaw) am seen as taking "the easy way out" when in reality I could be going somewhere that gave me even better instruction than I received at my Ivy League.

By the way, what is an "excellent MCAT?"

Again, thanks so much for the responses. I hope this makes sense; this is my third time trying to write this, but I keep getting logged out. I hope it's coherent enough.

the following is a true story:

i did research with a lovely girl who was in her ENT residency at UCLA after having graduated from UCLA med. she had gone to Harvard but at the time didn't take any of her pre-med reqs cuz she didn't know she wanted to be a doctor. when she realized she did, she took ALL of her prereq classes in ONE year at a state university, then took her MCAT the following summer (got a 36 or 37) and then applied. and went to UCLA. so...ya. it shouldn't matter

-mota

Hmmm I'd say doing the postbac and strengthening both academic and ECs would probably be the best route for you then.

If you were a Chem major, you shouls have the 2 sets of chem taken care of such as ochem and gchem.

If that is the case, take biochem if you haven't, and take the physics and bio in one year and you'll be fine. Oh and by excellent MCAT this is my take.....

25 is the average people do on the MCAT, 29-30 is the average for acceptance, and 33 is 88th percentile 34 is 92nd percentile, and 35+ is about 95+ percentile. So 34 or 35+ is most likely what she's referring to.

gujuDoc said:

Hmmm I'd say doing the postbac and strengthening both academic and ECs would probably be the best route for you then.

If you were a Chem major, you shouls have the 2 sets of chem taken care of such as ochem and gchem.

If that is the case, take biochem if you haven't, and take the physics and bio in one year and you'll be fine. Oh and by excellent MCAT this is my take.....

25 is the average people do on the MCAT, 29-30 is the average for acceptance, and 33 is 88th percentile 34 is 92nd percentile, and 35+ is about 95+ percentile. So 34 or 35+ is most likely what she's referring to.

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Yeah, I have all of the physics and chem that's needed, and some upper level bio (just two classes). If I didn't do well in a class (grade of C), should I retake it? Or just focus on classes I've never taken?

deplane said:

Yeah, I have all of the physics and chem that's needed, and some upper level bio (just two classes). If I didn't do well in a class (grade of C), should I retake it? Or just focus on classes I've never taken?

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depends on which admissions committee member you talk to. I keep in touch with one of the adcom members at USF who is also an MD in fam. practice. I also keep in touch with the program director for diversity initiatives and the admissions director at USF. Those are 3 people involved in admissions in some capacity or another, and they have varying opinions.

Some say that retaking a class with a C will show that you have perserverence(sp??) and others say to take the next level up. Like if you got a C in ochem to take biochem and do well in it.

My advice to you is to talk to admissions committees of the schools you are interested in and see what their opinion is if they are willing to talk to you. In that way USF students are fortunate because the adcoms here will do anything to help us out and are even trying to fight for us to get a proper premed office which we don't have at the moment.

LizzyM said:

You are going to have to get over the "big fish/little pond" problem. If you do very, very well at a second tier (or lower) school after having a B average at an Ivy, it looks as if you can do well if the competition is academically weak but not do well in a school where the students are selected for their academic prowess. Master's programs have the "grade inflation" problem... no one gets less than a 3.0 in a master's program (it would be grounds for dismissal in many programs) and therefore even good grades are pretty much meaningless. Do take some courses at the most competitive school you can manage, do well and rock the MCAT.

Make sure the rest of your application is dead-on: extra-curriculars of some kind during college (what were you doing when you weren't studying? include it even if it doesn't seem relevant, even if you haven't "contact names and phone numbers"), clinical exposure, research experience, some evidence of concern for the needs of others (service to society in some form), great letters of recommendation, excellent essays (AMCAS and supplementals) that speak to a change in you, a maturing, that results in better academic performance and a description of your career goals and why you have chosen medicine.

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My personal experience was actually quite different than how you describe. I also graduated from an Ivy league school with about average GPA and below average science GPA. I didnt get in the first time I applied two years ago and decided to do a masters in Bio at a state school. With a 4.0 from there, I got two MD acceptances and 5 MD interviews this cycle. So I dont really feel that a masters (even from a state school) is useless. I actually think it really helped my application.

thought i'd throw my two cents in...i'm applying this cycle with decent success, and a fairly similar record. i graduated cornell in 2004 with a degree in engineering and a pretty low gpa by med school standards (3.16). a friend of mine, from the same major, with a similar gpa, has also applied this cycle and had 11 interviews (not including ones he's turned down) with multiple acceptances. even went so far as a top ten MSTP program. the difference? well, among other things, he took classes at hunter college in manhattan while working this last year. he didn't even do a complete post-bacc, but it was enough to demonstrate that the upward trend on his transcript was real. if you're not familiar with hunter, it is not, in any way, a prestigous institution on the order of an ivy.

mjc48 said:

thought i'd throw my two cents in...i'm applying this cycle with decent success, and a fairly similar record. i graduated cornell in 2004 with a degree in engineering and a pretty low gpa by med school standards (3.16). a friend of mine, from the same major, with a similar gpa, has also applied this cycle and had 11 interviews (not including ones he's turned down) with multiple acceptances. even went so far as a top ten MSTP program. the difference? well, among other things, he took classes at hunter college in manhattan while working this last year. he didn't even do a complete post-bacc, but it was enough to demonstrate that the upward trend on his transcript was real. if you're not familiar with hunter, it is not, in any way, a prestigous institution on the order of an ivy.

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Interesting. Hunter is actually the place where I am doing my masters in.

beponychick said:

Interesting. Hunter is actually the place where I am doing my masters in.

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for what it's worth, he spoke very highly of the classes he took there, especially immunology. are you enrolled now?

mjc48 said:

for what it's worth, he spoke very highly of the classes he took there, especially immunology. are you enrolled now?

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Yes I am. I have one class left to take to finish the masters and take the final comprehensive exam in June.

Hunter is a CUNY (City University of New York) school and it is rather well regarded. It accepts only 29% of those who apply for admission in the freshman class. Contrast this with some community colleges that accept EVERYONE who applies if they hold a GED or HS diploma. I don't have much experience with the California schools so I can't speak to them and would have to look up the particulars about a given school before making a judgment.

While you can have anecdotal information about a single personal experience, in the aggregate, looking at hundreds of applications per year for many years, and looking at how other adcom members "read", a sub-optimal gpa at a well-regarded school and good grades at a low-level school, I can tell you that getting an A in Organic Chem at a community college that takes all comers and opens O-Chem to anyone with a C or higher in community college chemistry, is not going to impress us very much when we compare it to the person who earned an A in O-Chem at a very tough school.

Sometimes a masters degree goes along with some "aging and seasoning". The LOR may be better, the essays may show more maturity, there has been time for additional leadership opportunities, etc. This can translate into more interviews and offers but I wouldn't chalk it up to the M.S. alone.

LizzyM said:

Hunter is a CUNY (City University of New York) school and it is rather well regarded. It accepts only 29% of those who apply for admission in the freshman class. Contrast this with some community colleges that accept EVERYONE who applies if they hold a GED or HS diploma. I don't have much experience with the California schools so I can't speak to them and would have to look up the particulars about a given school before making a judgment.

While you can have anecdotal information about a single personal experience, in the aggregate, looking at hundreds of applications per year for many years, and looking at how other adcom members "read", a sub-optimal gpa at a well-regarded school and good grades at a low-level school, I can tell you that getting an A in Organic Chem at a community college that takes all comers and opens O-Chem to anyone with a C or higher in community college chemistry, is not going to impress us very much when we compare it to the person who earned an A in O-Chem at a very tough school.

Sometimes a masters degree goes along with some "aging and seasoning". The LOR may be better, the essays may show more maturity, there has been time for additional leadership opportunities, etc. This can translate into more interviews and offers but I wouldn't chalk it up to the M.S. alone.

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Although I feel that some community colleges do have great professors that offer rigorous coursework and challenge students, I'm not thinking of community college. I know community college=bad in medical school language, so I won't even try to contest it.

I do, however, want to attend a state university, that does not accept every freshman application that comes in. Sure you'll find some professors who could give a rat's arse about teaching anything significant (or teaching in general), but I've found the same even at top institutions.

In the end, I guess when it comes to medical school it's who you know and where you go. Can't people get some love for even trying? I could go in with my GPA and whatever I get on the MCAT and say, "take me as I am." But I'm working on myself, and my GPA, to show that I'll do whatever it takes. Unfortunately, I don't have the money to beg my university to let me back in (or to even make a trip back there), and I don't have the money to go to a UC through their Extension program (and so many of their courses are impacted anyway, it's ridiculous). CSUs provide flexibility in the way of fees, and interesting, upper level courses that I couldn't even find at my school. It would be the worst thing in the world if a person going to a community college did all the work, and blew their competition out of the water, just to find out their degree, their school, and their ability mean jack in the working world.

Sorry if I sound bitter, I'm a little down in other med-school related areas today. 🙁