A 12 year old at Pritzker!

GoodMonkey · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by buggy
I hope you are not this mean in real life. I wouldn't want you to be my doctor if you are so mean and negative about other people. I'd rather having a very intelligent, humble, positive doctor who's willing to learn all the new advanced techs in medicine to find the best way to treat my illness if I'm really very sick. I don't care if he's that young. You know, some 40 years old act like 10 year old!! You see that everywhere.

Stop trying to figure out his future, he's a real genius, far beyong your imagination...

Let's help make this site more positive.

lordy i LOVE IT when people whip out those *gasp* "what kind of doctor are you gonna make!??"-esque statements.
🙄 you know nothing about agent and you haven't been around this site long enough to know that he is a meaningful contributor to the site....

oh yeah, and welcome to SDN, where a flame war can be started over the subjects of kittens, mayonnaise and mist vs. stream spray on your squirt bottle. :laugh:

a tough skin is a good thing to have on an anonymous internet forum (as i'm still learning, at over 2200 posts!) 😀

agent · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by buggy
I hope you are not this mean in real life. I wouldn't want you to be my doctor if you are so mean and negative about other people. I'd rather having a very intelligent, humble, positive doctor who's willing to learn all the new advanced techs in medicine to find the best way to treat my illness if I'm really very sick. I don't care if he's that young. You know, some 40 years old act like 10 year old!! You see that everywhere.

Stop trying to figure out his future, he's a real genius, far beyong your imagination...

Let's help make this site more positive.

what are you.. his mother?

Geezus. I was joking. I believe the critics of this kid have very valid points. heartbleeder..

edit>> Thanks GoodMonkey, I see your sarcasm meter is functioning properly 😉

Gumshoe · May 2, 2003

I can imagine the future interview that a previous poster hinted at (schubie):

Interviewer: "So Sho, tell us about med school and how the path has been since you were admitted at age 12"

Sho: Yeah, I was really just a 4-eyed geek back then, loved the play teh violin and piano, study, and fight with my sister"

Interviewer: "Uh ... so you have changed? Your outlook is no longer the same?"

Sho: "Man, I discovered that right about when I started to study for endocrinology and testosterone was the main subject, my hormones just flew off the charts ... I started to study less, I had a huge thing for filipino girls, and whenever one would walk by I'd pop hard wood"

Interviewer: "You lost interest in ... "

Sho (abruptly): "Exactly, I really just wanted to f*ck madd biotches"

Interviewer: "Oh, I see. Are you still going to be a doctor?"

Sho: "For sure. I had a few bumps in the road. Now I know my calling. I'm destined to be OB/GYN ...."

[exit stage left]

:laugh:

agent · May 2, 2003

right on gumshoe..

JlazyMD · May 2, 2003

Perhaps it it useful to compare Sho to some that have come before him. From google:

Source: News India-Times, New York, May 22, 1995
WWW Address: http://haven.ios.com/~newsindi

Indian American Boy is World's Youngest Doctor

By TANIA ANAND

NEW YORK: Bala Murali Ambati, a New York-based Indian-American,
staked his claim to become the world's youngest doctor when he
graduated last week from Mt. Sinai Medical School, two months
before his 18th birthday. The New York state legislature has had to
pass a special exception allowing Bala to practice medicine because
he is still far below the required age of 21.
Bala is now headed for an internship at North Shore University
Hospital and will be moving on to the Massachusetts Eye and Ear
Infirmary at Harvard Medical School for residency in ophthalmology next
year.

Opthalmology at Mass Eye and Ear? Can't get much better than that.

Also:

Pierre Paul Broca

(1824-1880)

I. His Early Life
___ A. Born in Sainte-Foy-La-Grande in the Dorfogne region of France in 1824.
___ B. Child Prodigy and loved school
___ C. Had baccalaureate degrees simultaneously in literature, mathematics and physics.
___ D. Entered medical school at 17 years old in Paris.
___ E. He graduated at 20

_II. After his degree
___ A. Became a professor of surgical pathology at the University of Paris soon after obtaining his medical degree.
___ B. By age 24 he had many awards, medals and important positions.
___ C. He conducted research in many different areas including histology of cartilage and bone, cancer pathology, treatment\
________ of aneurysms and infant mortality.
___ D. Because he was a great brain anatomist he made important contributions in furthering the understanding of the limbic
________ system.

III. His most famous accomplishment:
___ A. Discovery of the speech center
_______ 1. Now known as Broca?s Area
_______ 2. Also known as the third circumvoultion of the frontal lobe.

IV. His other contributions
___ A. He founded a society for free-thinkers in 1848
___ B. He founded the Anthropological society of Paris in 1859
___ C. Founded the Revue d?Anthropologie in 1872
___ D. Founded the School of Anthropology in Paris in 1876
___ E. Developed may new instruments and numerical indices for studying the brain
___ F. Also contributed to the comparative anatomy of primates.
___ G. Near the end of his life he was elected a lifetime member of the French Senate.
___ H. Wrote over 500 presentations, and a classic 900 page monograph on aneurysms
___ I. Introduced the use of the microscope in the diagnosis of cancer
VI. His Personality
___ A. Friends describe him as generous, compassionate and kind
___ B. Honest and admired by all
___ C. Friends also say that he "never made and enemy and never lost a friend"
D. Quoted as saying "I would rather be a transformed ape than a degenerate son of Adam" (Sagan, 1979)

This guy sounds like a real loser, huh?

I found a couple other accounts of child prodigy MDs, they all did very well.

I wonder how many of Bala and Pierre's classmates got jealous and complained about their low emotional IQs?

dl2dp2 · May 2, 2003

The one problem that I have with this kid is that I don't really think he's all that smart. Sure IQ 200 blah blah blah...I've seen his research...it wasn't impressive. His newspaper interviews are also not that smart sounding. Sure he might have a really good memory, but it's not that hard to get a 3.9 and 41. Remember it's not easy, but surely not impossible to get a 3.9 at Loyola. I'm sure some of us get 41 and above on the MCAT.

I have just an hunch that JHU & UCLA rejected him not because he's young, but because he's not that smart. His vocabulary is very underdeveloped. I bet if he could give a completely cogent, brilliant presentation cancer biology from molecular biology to ethics, anybody would take him. You really think someone goes to UCSF MD/PhD at the age of 20 or 21 is going to have less of a shot to discover the cure of cancer than someon who goes to Priztker at the age of 12? Maybe I'm just being cocky 😛 Honestly i know people who are smarter than he is and had done way more...

michmaki · May 2, 2003

I go to Loyola and actually had a microbiology course w/this 12 year old prodigy and I remember when he got his scores back in June, bc: I remember asking him what he got. He got a 37.......14 Bio, 13 Phy, 10 Verbal..........................................By the way, for all you M1's at Pritzker, it is a really weird feeling to get a lower grade on something than a 12 year old.................Have fun..........

lola · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by sluox

I have just an hunch that JHU & UCLA rejected him not because he's young, but because he's not that smart.

oh come on. give the guy credit where credit is due. are you telling me that at the age of 12 you could have done what he has done academically? 🙄
of course his vocabulary is not that developed. he's only 12! i'm sure it will be much more developed by the time he is your age, and he will kick your butt on any standardized test then 😛

tBw · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by sluox
The one problem that I have with this kid is that I don't really think he's all that smart. Sure IQ 200 ....but it's not that hard to get a 3.9 and 41.

....oh...sorry....wasn't that a joke!?

JlazyMD · May 2, 2003

Honestly i know people who are smarter than he is and had done way more...

at age 12? i doubt it. dude, i don't know if it's intentional, but you sound like one of these people who can't quite admit somebody is better than them.

Gumshoe · May 2, 2003

I wonder if he has a little friend named "Vinny" that climbs a tree and jumps through his window every night to talk about the pre-pubescent trials of middle class america ... oh wait, that's weird, I think I stole that idea from prime time TV ...

Gumshoe

agent · May 2, 2003

I'm not jealous of him at all. I think its very sad to have parents that would rob you of your childhood by shoving schoolwork down your throat.. really sick.

desi flava · May 2, 2003

I honestly dont think age should matter. just be happy for the kid..my first reaction was shocking. i was actually happy/surprised that someone like him actually exists in our generation. god gave him a great gift for a reason, and im sure something good will come out of all this in the end. you haters just need to stop criticizin him cuz u know deep inside you are jealous of him.. even a little. he has worked hard all his life and he has accomplished so much..and he's just 12! and he's just gettin started..imagine what else he is going to accomplish after he completes his phd.. for him it's going to be a lifetime learning experience through research (and he's probably gonna love every bit of it). and if he's happy with it then why cant you be happy for him? instead of thinking every negative outcome possible, try to be a little more optimistic and think positive..some day you'll live to tell his story to your grand kids and they'll be learning about him in school as the person who found a cure for cancer/aids/whatever..

i think its totally normal for him to be shy and unsocial right now..CUZ HE'S ONLY 12 and he has lived a ..different life than the rest of us! many people were shy at that age but they grew out of it overtime..maybe he has been shy and unsocial all his life cuz people around him werent at his level..he had nothing in common to talk to them about..but now he will actually be around people that are as smart as him and he will be more enthusiastic to talk..and just open up. maybe he considers everyone else to be abnormal cuz we're not as smart as him..but he will be fine when he goes to what he might consider his normal environment.

but these are just my thoughts.. now dont start hating on me cuz i called you a hater!

iwannabeadoc · May 2, 2003

First the obvious:
-This kid is very intelligent.

Now the (maybe) not so obvious:
-Everyone in the world has their own dreams of what they want in life. Mad props to this kid for pursuing it in the face of all the adversity.

-None of us are in a position to make judgement on this boy's emotional intellect. Who's to say he's not "emotionally smarter" than us? Just because a person is very smart that does not mean that he/she can not relate to others.

-I expect him to get a lot out of medical school, just for the fact that he has such a desire to learn, and also his inherent child curiosity and open-mindedness. His humility is admirable.

Final thoughts:
-You go boy! Shake what yo mamma gave you!

MD2b06 · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by sluox
it's not that hard to get a 3.9 and 41.

Yes, I vividly remember acing pre-med courses and scoring in 99th percentile on the MCAT as a 12 year old. Don't you? Someone sounds a lil jealous.. +pity+

Let's be real. At the ripe old age of 12, he's smarter than you'll ever be, and that irks you. At least some of us can give credit where credit is due. 😛

And I think non-trads are likely to be even more upset w/ this kid than the traditional applicants. Perhaps b/c he's gonna have an MD and a PhD before many of them even decided to try to get into med school.

Nuel · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by MD2b06
Yes, I vividly remember acing pre-med courses and scoring in 99th percentile on the MCAT as a 12 year old. Don't you? Someone sounds a lil jealous..

Let's be real. At the ripe old age of 12, he's smarter than you'll ever be, and that irks you. At least some of us can give credit where credit is due. 😛

And I think non-trads are likely to be even more upset w/ this kid than the traditional applicants. Perhaps b/c he's gonna have an MD and a PhD before many of them even decided to try to get into med school.

This is well said md2b06

HouseHead · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by michmaki
I go to Loyola and actually had a microbiology course w/this 12 year old prodigy and I remember when he got his scores back in June, bc: I remember asking him what he got. He got a 37.......14 Bio, 13 Phy, 10 Verbal..........................................By the way, for all you M1's at Pritzker, it is a really weird feeling to get a lower grade on something than a 12 year old.................Have fun..........

He didn't score higher than me on any section then. I guess I shouldn't be jealous then 🙄

Ok, enough of this jealousy b.s. (accuse all you will, I never saw any!) Many of us say we wouldn't have given up our interim years (2 years after undergrad, 4 years before undergrad, etc.) for anything, and I dare say that I'm not alone in appreciating the vast leaps and bounds I've taken in my social maturity between h.s. and the present.
It's true, I've never met this kid. I, like almost all of you, am going solely on what has been written about him. And what I've read (the paper snatching, the extreme shyness, etc.) doesn't speak well of his social skills OR emotional maturity.
The fact that mommy chaperones him everywhere speaks volumes- at 12, the only time I saw my parents was at home, not at school or ballet after school, not when I hung out with my friends, not when I caught buses to the mall or friends' houses on the weekend. From what I've read, this kid reminds me of several girls with whom I studied ballet- their moms drove them *everywhere*, watched during class and rehearsal, and coddled them at every turn. They were quite bratty and immature even at the age of 17, after at least having attended normal h.s.
So this kid not only has no normal social interaction whatsoever (and probably little abnormal social interaction either), but he's also been coddled and sheltered like crazy?? Even is he's going to have a career in research, the purpose of an MD/PhD is to be able to bring clinical experience into the lab (or so I've been told).
I have to admit, it is offensive to me that while adcoms supposedly put so much stock in life experience, leadership skills, and ability to be a team player, everything I've read on this kid says that he's got none of these, and there is no guarantee that he'll develop any of them.
Again I say, Ph.D., sure, but not M.D.

tBw · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by MD2b06

And I think non-trads are likely to be even more upset w/ this kid than the traditional applicants. Perhaps b/c he's gonna have an MD and a PhD before many of them even decided to try to get into med school.

heh. maybe. but i doubt it. as a non-trad i've *already* accepted that people many years my junior will be in my class, quite probably beating me on tests, and definitely graduating before i ever dreamt of med school. who cares? I am not those people and they are not me. so we had different paths but now we are all just aiming to be the best physicians we can be. it's all good!

infact as a non-trad maybe i'm already pre-disposed to accept that there are as many different routes to life, as there are people, and so thats why this 12 year olds 'novel' route bothers me less than it does others on this thread...?

alphabeta53 · May 2, 2003

this kid probably still has wet dreams...

wet dreams...i miss those! Nowadays I wake up with morning wood that usually sucks but recently i just turn my gf over and get rid of it the good way.

We can argue all we want about this kid but time will only tell. In the past there have been successes and busts, I hope that he succeeds and helps Lola out her genital warts.

AB

lola · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by alphabeta53

We can argue all we want about this kid but time will only tell. In the past there have been successes and busts, I hope that he succeeds and helps Lola out her genital warts.
AB

shhh... don't tell everyone what you gave to me!

LUBDUBB · May 2, 2003

THe problem is that some of you guys are looking at this from your own "normal" perspective. Thats why you have the "I would never give up my fun days" mentality.

This guy is a genius, with big goals, he could give two drops of monkey urine about having fun.

Also, geniuses like this are not going to be opening up their own family clinics, so don't worry about all this "12 yr old patient interaction" bs.

This guy is going big time, like finding cures for cancer/ms/als...etc...

Louweezel · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by mvervaine
I think we're confusing the meaning of the term 'social skills.' As we well know, the way one interacts with a patient is not how one interacts with one's friends. Sho may not know how to act if I were to, say, ask for his phone number (not that I would; that?d be cradle robbing), but the article claims that he's 'accustomed to formal communication' (or something like that) so I suspect he would hold up well when interacting with patients or fellow physicians.

Though I wish this kid the very best and have no doubt he is capable of perhaps one day achieving great things, this part does bother me. The article said that he prefers formal communication i.e. emails over phone conversations, and doesn't speak much. What is he gonna do, email all his patients to talk to them instead of speaking face to face? 😕

I agree that he may not value those things which we consider "normal" for a 12 year old and that's fine by me. If he has a thirst for knowledge then that's wonderful that he's going to fulfill it. To echo what seems to be the sentiments of many, researcher, yes and wonderful; clinician - yes when he proves he can deal with these issues that he can't have experienced yet due to his age, and when he feels like he can "speak above a whisper" and communicate via face to face talking, not email, without mom having to be present. Isn't that what an interview is for? I'm on the quiet side myself, and have worked hard to bring myself out of my shell. I think that if I have said that I prefer communicating only by email, not face to face, it would have been no med school for me.

drdoctor · May 2, 2003

LUBDUBB, you're exactly right. The kid is a GENIUS and he is not going to be an ordinary doctor having a family practice or even doing neurosurgery. He is going to be in the cutting-edge of research! He's not going to be interacting w/ patients as much as other doctors. And, he will be smart enough to develop his social skills by the time he is finished w/ his Ph.D. (age 17, 18). Not all of us are gifted and it is great that he is truly blessed and will most definately succeed in whatever he hopes to do. He is smartere than ALL of us here. And, partying/undergrad experience, all that crap is not fun for everyone. This kid has much bigger goals than scoring w/ some girl. He is going in the right direction. There is no rule that 12 year olds have to be building snow forts are whatever. Why would a genius waste his time doing that when he could be using his mind for something far, far more useful. His fun is succeeding and finding out more about this world. He is no mere child.

HouseHead · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by drdoctor
The kid is a GENIUS

While I agree that this kid is likely more intelligent than any of us here, let's not forget that technically, many of us here are geniuses as well. The word doesn't mean all that much.

and he is not going to be an ordinary doctor having a family practice or even doing neurosurgery. He is going to be in the cutting-edge of research! He's not going to be interacting w/ patients as much as other doctors.

But it will still be an important part of becoming (and being) an MD.

And, he will be smart enough to develop his social skills by the time he is finished w/ his Ph.D. (age 17, 18).

I disagree with this assumption. While this may indeed happen, his intelligence will just as likely hinder his social and emotional development.

And, partying/undergrad experience, all that crap is not fun for everyone.

Fun is not what leads to emotional and social maturity. We're not(okay, I am not) talking about missing out on a few years of fun, but on a decade of important, formative social interaction.

This kid has much bigger goals than scoring w/ some girl. He is going in the right direction. There is no rule that 12 year olds have to be building snow forts are whatever. Why would a genius waste his time doing that when he could be using his mind for something far, far more useful. His fun is succeeding and finding out more about this world. He is no mere child.

I think this is a very dangerous- if very common- way to look at these kids. He IS a child, no matter what else is going on in his life. As many have noted, it is very possible that when puberty hits, his focus will go wiggy. And if it doesn't, it is possible that his sense of superiority (as shown in the article- and it possibly won't be tempered as it usually is in "normal" people) will keep him from developing meaningful intimate relationships.

Aside from how HE is effected by all this, I still maintain that social skills should be (and supposedly are) a PREREQUISITE for admittance into an MD program.

Modnar · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by the boy wonder
heh. maybe. but i doubt it. as a non-trad i've *already* accepted that people many years my junior will be in my class, quite probably beating me on tests, and definitely graduating before i ever dreamt of med school. who cares? I am not those people and they are not me. so we had different paths but now we are all just aiming to be the best physicians we can be. it's all good!

infact as a non-trad maybe i'm already pre-disposed to accept that there are as many different routes to life, as there are people, and so thats why this 12 year olds 'novel' route bothers me less than it does others on this thread...?

Well said! :clap:

powermd · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by HouseHead
While I agree that this kid is likely more intelligent than any of us here, let's not forget that technically, many of us here are geniuses as well. The word doesn't mean all that much.

Your ego is so thick, I think you just tripped over it.

buggy · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by GoodMonkey
lordy i LOVE IT when people whip out those *gasp* "what kind of doctor are you gonna make!??"-esque statements.
🙄 you know nothing about agent and you haven't been around this site long enough to know that he is a meaningful contributor to the site....

oh yeah, and welcome to SDN, where a flame war can be started over the subjects of kittens, mayonnaise and mist vs. stream spray on your squirt bottle. a tough skin is a good thing to have on an anonymous internet forum (as i'm still learning, at over 2200 posts!) 😀

Originally posted by agent
what are you.. his mother?

Geezus. I was joking. I believe the critics of this kid have very valid points. heartbleeder..

edit>> Thanks GoodMonkey, I see your sarcasm meter is functioning properly 😉

Finally you got my point!!

See, you don't want to be criticized by a person that doesn't know you that well, but why you jumped out to criticize Sho and his family so quickly, so unfoundedly? Do you know him or his family better than I know you?

Please treat other people the way you want to be treated!

Peace.

NE_Cornhusker1 · May 2, 2003

If my parent's jammed schoolwork down throat from the time we crappped our pants and suckled breast milk (although it sounds like this kid's parents are psychotic, they pry held a boombox up to the womb and rocked Beethoven to 'stimulate' the shorty) I could have probably finished college when I was 15 or 16 or so. I'm by no means a genius (compared to this kid). It just seems like this is what his parents want and maybe not what he does, I guess we'll all find out in about 10 years. Peace.

buggy · May 3, 2003

Originally posted by NE_Cornhusker1
If my parent's jammed schoolwork down throat from the time we crappped our pants and suckled breast milk (although it sounds like this kid's parents are psychotic, they pry held a boombox up to the womb and rocked Beethoven to 'stimulate' the shorty) I could have probably finished college when I was 15 or 16 or so. I'm by no means a genius (compared to this kid). It just seems like this is what his parents want and maybe not what he does, I guess we'll all find out in about 10 years. Peace.

A genius is a genius. Please don't compare yourself to a genius. That may only embarass you and us.

Show some kindness to fellow human beings. Humiliating somebody else is humiliating to yourself too.

HouseHead · May 3, 2003

Originally posted by powermd
Your ego is so thick, I think you just tripped over it.

Okey dokey 🙄

Genius: "A person who has an exceptionally high intelligence quotient, typically above 140". You're saying that you don't think a lot of people on this board have IQs over 140??? 😱

PhillyEaglesFan · May 3, 2003

Originally posted by HouseHead

Fun is not what leads to emotional and social maturity. We're not(okay, I am not) talking about missing out on a few years of fun, but on a decade of important, formative social interaction.

Nail on head here.

Anyway you slice it, 10 years lost is 10 years lost. Not 10 years of partying or playing with GI Joe's, but just 10 years of living.

And while I agree that it is arrogant for any of us to push our ideal of childhood on the young man, it's also arrogant to assume he'll magically mature minus the many years it took most of us to do so...just because he got a 40 MCAT and 3.9 at age 12.

I'm not saying he WON'T be able to do it--I'm rooting for this kid...hell, I root for everybody, wanna see everybody do well--but it's going to take work for him to do it, more than the average 22 year old entering graduate school.

But I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to grow up to be a fine man and physician.

powermd · May 3, 2003

Originally posted by HouseHead
Okey dokey 🙄

Genius: "A person who has an exceptionally high intelligence quotient, typically above 140". You're saying that you don't think a lot of people on this board have IQs over 140??? 😱

No, I'm saying this kid is way more than a genius by your minimum-standard definition. He's a prodigy. "A person with exceptional talents or powers." The key word there being "exceptional." It's an insult to compare him to anyone who frequents the SDN boards, no matter how smart you think we all are. What were you doing at 12 years old? Being an ordinary kid I would suspect, as we all were.

powermd · May 3, 2003

Originally posted by agent
I'm not jealous of him at all. I think its very sad to have parents that would rob you of your childhood by shoving schoolwork down your throat.. really sick.

I think this statement represents a fundamental misconception some people have. You can't take an ordinary kid and make him into what Sho is at 12 years old, no matter how hard you push. He was born with far greater talents than any normal kid, so he's just progressing at a rate that is natural for him. If you read the articles written about him, he even considers himself lazy, sleeping 9-10 hours per day.

Take a look at the work of Alexandra Nechita, a child art prodigy whose work rivals Picasso's. She was painting beautiful works by the age of 3. You can't teach a normal kid to do that, the talent comes from within.

dl2dp2 · May 3, 2003

I maintain that I don't think he's that smart. If he's really that smart, why wouldn't the top medical schools accept him? I'm sure he would've preferred Harvard/JHU, had they even considered him, over Pritzker, which is dropping out of the top 20 this year. Remember, Uchicago is a good medical school, but it's by no means best of the best, or even close to it. I'm willing to admit this kid is smart than me when he gets into a top 5.

MacGyver · May 3, 2003

Originally posted by sluox
I maintain that I don't think he's that smart. If he's really that smart, why wouldn't the top medical schools accept him? I'm sure he would've preferred Harvard/JHU, had they even considered him, over Pritzker, which is dropping out of the top 20 this year. Remember, Uchicago is a good medical school, but it's by no means best of the best, or even close to it. I'm willing to admit this kid is smart than me when he gets into a top 5.

What schools did he apply to? Just chicago, harvard, and hopkins? Where else?

how do you know this info?

Doctor&Geek · May 3, 2003

Has anyone considered what the alternative for Sho would be like?

How boring a non-intellectual field would be for him? Do you think he'd enjoy working at the grocery store for four years just because some people didn't think he was mature enough?

Do you think that medicine and the people in it would be the only folks who would have concerns that a young individual like Sho would be disruptive? Why not the same feelings in some office somewhere pushing paper - wouldn't your co-workers be uncomfortable with you in the same way as patients would?

Aren't we really reflecting our own society's values on Sho? In ancient Asia, people got married at 13, had kids at 15. In Europe, people got apprenticed at 10 for skilled labor. In America, those things would not be considered normal - but remember that these things were considered normal in their place and time. Who are we to determine what is "normal", and does that necessarily mean that it is "good"? Is growing up at a "normal" age in high school "good" for Sho? Who are we to judge those whose potential you seek to hold back - because they won't have the same childhood that you had?

IMHO, society should NOT be the conduit of normalcy; rather it should be the conduit to help each individual acheive his or her potential.

Yours,

supersunny · May 3, 2003

Originally posted by JPaikman
Has anyone considered what the alternative for Sho would be like?

How boring a non-intellectual field would be for him? Do you think he'd enjoy working at the grocery store for four years just because some people didn't think he was mature enough?

Do you think that medicine and the people in it would be the only folks who would have concerns that a young individual like Sho would be disruptive? Why not the same feelings in some office somewhere pushing paper - wouldn't your co-workers be uncomfortable with you in the same way as patients would?

Aren't we really reflecting our own society's values on Sho? In ancient Asia, people got married at 13, had kids at 15. In Europe, people got apprenticed at 10 for skilled labor. In America, those things would not be considered normal - but remember that these things were considered normal in their place and time. Who are we to determine what is "normal", and does that necessarily mean that it is "good"? Is growing up at a "normal" age in high school "good" for Sho? Who are we to judge those whose potential you seek to hold back - because they won't have the same childhood that you had?

IMHO, society should be the conduit of normalcy; rather it should be the conduit to help each individual acheive his or her potential.

Yours,

i agree totally.

also, at his age i was a complete nerd and would have loved to have been as smart as him. i had the enthusiasm but not the brain to do what he did.
not everybody gives a crap about having what most here have called "a normal childhood." i'd resent anyone who would hold me back from achieving my full potential.

normal is boring😉

NE_Cornhusker1 · May 3, 2003

Originally posted by buggy
A genius is a genius. Please don't compare yourself to a genius. That may only embarass you and us.

Show some kindness to fellow human beings. Humiliating somebody else is humiliating to yourself too.

You missed the whole damn point by wrapping yourself in a shroud of self-righteousness and 'treat others how you want to be treated' crap.

If you need it more clearly laid out here it is; There's no disputing this kid is smart. I've seen many kids who are identified early in life as 'highly gifted' and their parents then proceed to shove schoolwork down their throat and demolish any semblence of a childhood. Most of these kids turn out miserable. I don't know if this is the case with Sho or not but given his background and mother's actions I suspect it is the case. I only hope the kid turns out happy with a decision that either he made when he was 11 or that his parents forced on him when he was 11.

Hypocrite. Peace.

Neuronix · May 3, 2003

I'm gonna jump in here with my opinion on the issue. I agree with the many of the arguments presented on both sides.

I think that Sho is so smart and so dedicated that he could never have a normal adolescence because he would never fit in with his peers. If forced to do the normal kid thing, he would spend his time doing tons of intellectual things that the other children just don't do. He would likely be miserable and never learn to fit in. I think this is what happened to me when I was a child. My family and teachers recognized I had enormous talent before and especially after I was tested, but they would not push me ahead because they wanted me to have a "normal childhood" and they said I was not yet "emotionally mature". My childhood turned out to be anything but normal and I think I was as mature at 12 as my peers in high school were at 18. But I digress--it's impossible for me to say how I might have turned out had things have been different.

However, I also think that being a doctor requires wisdom and maturity that only comes with a bit of age. I do agree that many students entering medical school at 21 do not have sufficient wisdom and maturity, but from what I have heard from others who have met and interviewed him, neither does Sho. If you couple this with his abnormally young age, I don't think he's a good candidate for medical school right now. I do agree with you JPaikman on what you have said about how can we and our society necessarily say what is right for him. I make that argument all the time for other things. However, I can think of no society where healers/doctors/shamans are chosen at such a young age. If anything, societies look upon those who are older to have the appropriate "spiritual energy" to heal. There is no society where spirituality is not thought to have some role in healing, and spirituality is commonly thought to come with age and life trials.

I think the best solution is for him to get a PhD first, and then if he wants the MD, for him to come back and do it. Regardless of my best solution, I also think that the U of Chicago has prepared an acceptable compromise for him. One year of medical school with no patient contact, then go to his PhD work. Some of the students at the U of C that I talked to say that's not so good because some of the patient contact in year one was essential to their development as physicians. But, ignoring that, many MSTPs do only go to one year of medical school before going to the lab full-time. I just worry that he will not be ready for medical school when he completes his PhD (what if he does his PhD in 2 - 3 years?). I also wonder if he really knows what he's getting into, but then again, does any MSTP really know what they're getting into?

I heard from others who met him at MSTP interviews that he interviewed at alot of big name schools, but was rejected by all of them. I think his success at the U of C was due to the director. From what I have gathered, I believe that the director has the final say about who gets into the MSTP there. I heard from him that some others on the admissions committee were not happy with the decision. Nevertheless, they were overruled. I also think that the director is a bit eccentric, and others would back me up on this, but I don't want to demean his decision. He thinks that Sho has the potential to do very good things, and so he doesn't want to pass that up.

So that's my little rant. I wish Sho luck and I really do hope he does help bring forth new biomedical discovery. I don't think the decision to persue MD/PhD at this time is the best one, but then again, I would have been proud and supportive of him had I have joined him at the U of C.

saiyaman · May 3, 2003

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/04/21/prodigy.graduates.ap/index.html

not to get into a pissing contest ("my genius is better than your genius") but check that article above out. honestly, there is a child prodigy who really impressed me...not because of just his intelligence, but also because of his emotional maturity. it is quite possible for a 12-13 year old, who also happens to have significant intelligence, to possess maturity, and greg smith is evidence of this. my issue this whole time has not been to dispute that sho is brilliant, which he is, or that he could end up making vast contributions to society. i also wanted to point out, however, that he IS lacking in a large degree of emotional maturity that members of his own peer cohort apparently possess. also, as a side note, those of us who would err on the side of caution in regards to sho's getting an MD are not spiteful, jealous or petty for doing so--obviously the admissions committees at every other medical school aside from U of C agreed with us.

PhillyEaglesFan · May 3, 2003

I agree, normal IS boring 🙂

And normal isn't for everybody.

But normal is "normal" for a reason. There's a reason why 18 is the normal age for a kid to go to college. There's a reason why 16 is the normal age for a kid to get a license. These are conventions that have held up for a long time and seemed to have worked pretty well for the majority of people.

So, there's no harm in raising the flag, just like there's no harm in letting the young man go ahead and do this thing.

There is harm in either extreme--i.e. not raising the flag and completely ignoring the age factor, or barring him from doing what he wants to do based on age alone.

dynx · May 3, 2003

My friends father graduated from stanford at the age of sixteen. He is smart but not a genius (i don't subscribe to the 140 IQ definition). The advantage he had over other students was a near photographic memory. I suspect that this child has something similar. Not to take anything away from his amazing accomplishments but a great memory and an ability to regurgitate information on a college test or the MCAT is not genius. Genius is, as some person said (my memory fails me!): the ability to see what everybody else has seen but think what nobody else has thought." This kid has not published any original papers, written symphonies or invented new devices. Genius is Einstein or Mozart or Edison, it's the ability to create.
From what I read it seems that this kid has a freakish ability to absorb material. And this ability is being exploited for the gain of people around him. If he also gains from this exploitation then that is great, he will reach his goals faster by mutual exploitation of those around him ready to further his achievements to bolster attention to their own causes (i.e. Pritzker not slipping further in the rankings) But if it is harming him and building up expectations in his mind that he cannot live up to then I have nothing but sympathy for him. Only time will tell.

Mistress S · May 3, 2003

I feel kind of sorry for this kid too, but not necessarily because of the whole lost childhood thing, which as many others have pointed out is not really an issue for him anyway. Instead, look at the expectations for this child, even on this board and from his supporters: he's going to cure cancer, aids, genital herpes, etc. Which he may well do, but if he hasn't cured some major illness by the time he's 30, he'll probably committ suicide--seriously, you'd have to be pretty damn well adjusted to deal with the crushing disappointment in yourself and everyone around you when the bar has been set that high and you don't live up to it. Many child prodigies fail to live up to their potential; hopefully Sho will be an exception, but if not, can you imagine how difficult that would be to live with when everyone expects so much out of you? If I get into medical school, everyone I know will be impressed and proud; most of my friends and family consider that a huge accomplishment, even if I never accomplish anything else in my life. For this kid, it was something he'd done before hitting puberty; how do you continously top that? And what happens to you--emotionally, socially--if you don't?

I wish this kid all the luck in the world; like others, I question the wisdom of this move in his life in terms of his emotional development, but if he and his family and Pritzker feel it is the best thing for him I'm certainly in no position to disagree. But I have to say I am grateful that I have been free of the expectations placed on this child, free to celebrate in the minor accomplishments my admittedly small talents have afforded me without being disappointed or disappointing those around me if I am ever less than extraordinary. Further, while his academic abilities indeed open up possibilities for him that most of us will never be able to reach, I think calling them a "gift" really depends on your priorities. Which do you value more: your intellectual achievements, or your friends and personal relationships? For most of us, no matter how much importance we place on the former (and as pre-meds, it is probably more than society in general would), we wouldn't trade our friends, partners, etc. for even greatly increased intellect (at least I wouldn't). Sho's "gift" is one that by its very nature seperates him from the rest of society; he may become one of those rare individuals who manage to balance their prodigal talent with emotional capability as well, but the indications so far are that he, like may others in his position, lacks the type of interpersonal skills that most of us rely on in our relationships. I question the value of any gift that means living your life largely in what amounts to isolation. Hopefully this boy will avoid the many potential pitfalls ahead of him and learn how to lead a fulfilling life, whether that means curing antibiotic-resistant strains of syphilis or not.

Yogi Bear · May 4, 2003

Sho had perfect scores in the quantitative and analytical sections of the graduate school admissions test. His Medical College Admissions Test scores--at 13 or 14 out of 15 for each of the sections--make him among the best of the best.

someone mentioned earlier that the were a classmates of sho's and thought he had a 37. i was reading this quote again and i think i agree w/ the person. The article mentioned "quantitative and analytical sections" of gre, and subsequently mentioned "13 or 14 for each of the sections"...in reference to the science sections of the mcat. thus, he probably did get a 10 in verbal. New score = 37, NOT 40+ as some suggested earlier. a 37's great, but still plenty of SDNers who can top that (myself not included.... 😀).

Doc Ivy · May 4, 2003

I remember when I was 14, all I wanted to do was sleep, and there's a good physiological reason for this:
In reading the original article something struck me...
Does anyone one else have concerns about what the lack of sleep will do to Sho during such a crucial developmental stage in his life. I mean, doesn't most of our adolescent growth (release of GH etc) depend on maintaining a normal circadian rhythm???

Having this poor kid on the wards, sleep deprived may have important consequences for his neurological health...just my thoughts

powermd · May 4, 2003

Originally posted by Yogi Bear
someone mentioned earlier that the were a classmates of sho's and thought he had a 37. i was reading this quote again and i think i agree w/ the person. The article mentioned "quantitative and analytical sections" of gre, and subsequently mentioned "13 or 14 for each of the sections"...in reference to the science sections of the mcat. thus, he probably did get a 10 in verbal. New score = 37, NOT 40+ as some suggested earlier. a 37's great, but still plenty of SDNers who can top that (myself not included.... 😀).

Damn right, plenty of SDN'ers could probably kick his ass too, black belt or no black belt. Sheesh. The kid's 12 years old. Remember? A 37 may not be unobtainable for an adult college graduate, but for a 12 year old kid?

geldrop · May 4, 2003

I know i'd be annoyed that everyone is discussing me if i were this kid. I think your all just jealous and what difference does it matter if you think it would be good or bad for the little kid. He'll do what he want in fact he's probably analyzed this situation very thoroughly than any of us could possible.

HouseHead · May 4, 2003

Originally posted by heelpain
"While I agree that this kid is likely more intelligent than any of us here, let's not forget that technically, many of us here are geniuses as well. The word doesn't mean all that much."

Many people view doctors as conceited. We don't have to make it worse by making statements like this.

I confirmed the genius definition (>140 IQ) on dictionary.com (I've seen much stricter definitions in the past, and it was either 140 or 150 as a cutoff). It's just like there's a cutoff defining "******ed". I have no problem acknowledging the fact that as a whole, SDNers (and people applying to med school in general) are of above average intelligence (>100 IQ), and many are, again, technically geniuses. Why is that conceited?

If anyone has a problem with the dictionary definition of genius, take it up with someone else.

geldrop · May 5, 2003

I agree with that last post. I think all too many doctors think medicine is the end all hardest profession that demands the most intelligence and blah blah. Try coming up with some orginal idea on how to treat someone and THEN maybe i'll say your intelligent. By itself medicine is fairly simple, heck i'd say a monkey could do it. Its the originality and creativity that makes one unique and special and perhaps even deserve a nobel prize....

indianboy · May 5, 2003

By itself medicine is fairly simple, heck i'd say a monkey could do it. Its the originality and creativity that makes one unique and special and perhaps even deserve a nobel prize....

Speaking from experience? Mmm hmm [pets geldrop on the head, feeds banana] The ominous nature of the last sentance - as if geldrop himself is the King of Sweden - is precious.

Hope that Helps

P 'Don't Hate on Royalty' ShankOut

A 12 year old at Pritzker!

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