MD vs DO

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I have a son who is right looking at alternatives in the field of medicine ... going for MD in Caribbean school versus doing a DO program in US itself ? Curious to know if some one as more insights into the Pros and Cons of both the program's.
 
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I don't read the h.sdn much, but why are you and your son already looking into alternatives into medicine if he is still in HS? Is it just me or is this a little crazy. It's like you are already planning for a problem or something to happen in college that would prevent him from getting into an MD school.

Also, like optimator said DO isn't the carb equivalent. Only like 40% of carb land a spot in the match. DO's have their own match and participate in the MD match. DO school stats are climbing every year ( I don't know about carb) so this isn't even a fall-back option, nor should it be.
 
A trend in the match at the moment (which will only get worse as Allopathic class sizes increase) is the number of foreign (carib) and DO grads that are not matching into MD residencies.

This year 93% of US MD grads matched.
70% of US DO grads that applied for the MD Match matched.
48% of Students from Carib or other Foreign Schools matched.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf
match2009-1.jpg

USMD 93.1% (-)1.1% from last year
USDO 69.9% (-)1.7% from last year
USIMG 47.8% (-)4.1% from last year


As noted above, DO students have the option to match into their own match. This means that if the MD match eventually becomes prohibitively competitive for US DOs, they will still have an alternative, while foreign MDs will not have any fallback.


Another issue is that DO schools tend to have attrition rates on par with MD schools, roughly 95% of the entering class will graduate. Carib schools will start with a very large class that gets much smaller throughout the first two years. You must pass their qualifying exam in order to take the USMLE, then you must pass the USMLE to move on to clerkships. There are a lot of points where you can be pruned out along the way. Once you do get to clerkships, a lot of the legwork is left to you. The school may have some hospitals that have agreed to accept their students, but it is up to you to work out the nitty-gritty details of when you get to rotate through.

If your son is going to explore DO v. MD, I would highly recommend he look at stateside DO schools. There are some that aren't as good as others. Recently a for-profit DO school opened, much to the dismay of much of the profession. Still, there are many good, established programs out there.
 
Thanks for ur replies.Right now my son is waiting for mcat scores.Now he is senior with bio major in college.If my son doesn't get good mcat score,we r looking at alternatives.Any suggestins..............Thx in Advance.
 
rose11 said:
Thanks for ur replies.Right now my son is waiting for mcat scores.Now he is senior with bio major in college.If my son doesn't get good mcat score,we r looking at alternatives.Any suggestins..............Thx in Advance.
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I would suggest your son to come on SDN by himself. You shouldn't be doing the research work for him.
 
Since this is the parent's forum this is the appropriate place for a parent to be asking these questions.

Since your son is a pre-med you ought to direct him to the Pre-Allo and Pre-Osteo boards as they will have lots of information (and even more opinion) about the different degrees.

There is some info in the hSDN FAQ here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=531553

Good luck to you and your son.
 
docB , Thank you so much for the information.
 
Thx for the info Depakote.
 
tennisball80 said:
I would suggest your son to come on SDN by himself. You shouldn't be doing the research work for him.
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I agree heavily on this statement. If your son is so serious for med school, he should be doing the research himself. He's a legal adult isn't he? If he is old enough for the death penalty (bad pun I know 🙄), he's old enough to do the research himself.

I'd stay away from those Caribbean schools, the level of education is abominably bad. He'd fare far better doing med school in Latin America (though the spanish language barrier would probably be an issue for him).
 
Im currently a junior in college with good grades but havent taken the mcat yet. I will be taking it this summer though! My top choices are ALL DO schools. If given the choice of an MD or DO medical education I would opt with the Osteopathic route anyway.

Let me know if you have any questions!
 
DO schools would give your son more opportunities upon graduation from med school.
 
vasca said:
I agree heavily on this statement. If your son is so serious for med school, he should be doing the research himself. He's a legal adult isn't he? If he is old enough for the death penalty (bad pun I know 🙄), he's old enough to do the research himself.

I'd stay away from those Caribbean schools, the level of education is abominably bad. He'd fare far better doing med school in Latin America (though the spanish language barrier would probably be an issue for him).
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This post is ABOMINDABLY ignorant. It's a mistake in logic to say the education is sub-par. In truth, the education at all of the legitimate Caribbean med schools is identical, with the exception that they don't have as much patient contact in the first 2 years, which is a very small issue in the end. The same types of doctors and professors lecture there as here. Yes, it takes higher academic achievement to gain entry to a U.S. medical school, so many more of them actually finish and get a residency. But there are about 6 Caribbean med schools which are very viable alternatives to U.S. or D.O. school (Ross, SABA, St. George's, AUC, MUA, SMU (St. Mathew's), they all have many residents and doctors in practice. SGU and Ross are by far the largest, and you will commonly encounter grads from these schools in any given city or hospital. Between the 2 of them, they graduate 600 doctors per year, and about 95% pass the USMLE, and about 70% match. They match higher than the rest of the Carib schools, with the exception of SABA and AUC, which match the same. Many of us on SDN have attended Caribbean schools, and yes they don't have the reputation and status of U.S. schools, and yes, a D.O. is better, but these are still very real, viable, legitimate path's into medicine for strong (not necessarily stellar) students.

The idea that your son should be doing all the research is absurb in my opinion. 2 heads are always better than one. This is a parent's forum.
 
Psych2014 said:
This post is ABOMINDABLY ignorant. It's a mistake in logic to say the education is sub-par. In truth, the education at all of the legitimate Caribbean med schools is identical, with the exception that they don't have as much patient contact in the first 2 years, which is a very small issue in the end. The same types of doctors and professors lecture there as here. Yes, it takes higher academic achievement to gain entry to a U.S. medical school, so many more of them actually finish and get a residency. But there are about 6 Caribbean med schools which are very viable alternatives to U.S. or D.O. school (Ross, SABA, St. George's, AUC, MUA, SMU (St. Mathew's), they all have many residents and doctors in practice. SGU and Ross are by far the largest, and you will commonly encounter grads from these schools in any given city or hospital. Between the 2 of them, they graduate 600 doctors per year, and about 95% pass the USMLE, and about 70% match. They match higher than the rest of the Carib schools, with the exception of SABA and AUC, which match the same. Many of us on SDN have attended Caribbean schools, and yes they don't have the reputation and status of U.S. schools, and yes, a D.O. is better, but these are still very real, viable, legitimate path's into medicine for strong (not necessarily stellar) students.

The idea that your son should be doing all the research is absurb in my opinion. 2 heads are always better than one. This is a parent's forum.
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Saying the pass rate is 95% is deceiving. Stats can always be skewed to say anything.

The FIRST TIME pass rate is:
From 1993-2007.
Step 1- RUSM 70% SGU 84.4%
Step 2- RUSM 71% SGU 80%

This data is directly from Ross's website.

This data is also only up to 2007 and things may have changed (I have no idea) because they now require their students to take "the comp" which is basically a pre-test to see if you would pass the real thing or not. If you don't pass the pre-test, you don't take the actual usmle. Failing the first time around is bad, especially as an FMG, so "the comp" is not necessarily a bad thing.

This is generalizing however, one of the major problems of a caribbean school is not the education itself but rather if you fall behind or fail, they're not going to go out of their way to help you like a U.S. based school would.

Of course you can get a great education there, a great residency match and go on to become a great physician. You will just have to work harder than your U.S. based peers to get the same end.
 
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95% is not decieving, it is based upon current statistics, and I'll actually adjust my statement to say "above 90%", due to variations.

Well, there are a lot of generalities above. The stats have changed hugely, primarily because the schools intentioned to do so, by having a "get off the island" test (which is an NBME comprehensive basic sciences exam, called a "shelf" or a "comp", meaning shelved usmle questions, representative of the current test), which in essence, put a fire under a lot of students, which is a good thing. Doing this caused our school to go from around 60% first time step 1 pass to 90% first time, over the course of the last 2 years. Of course, the % went up because students were "weeded out", but it's not the school wanting to vanquish them, it's preparatory for the student, because if they can't pass the comp shelf, they wont pass usmle.

I recieved help from my school, quite a bit actually with negotiating the usmle's quickly and efficiently. I never really struggled with classes, but other students recieved tutoring, help with add, psychological counselling for stress. I can't vouch for other schools, check their forums.
 
rose11 said:
I have a son who is right looking at alternatives in the field of medicine ... going for MD in Caribbean school versus doing a DO program in US itself ? Curious to know if some one as more insights into the Pros and Cons of both the program's.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to be another one who points this out, but your if your son is already considering medicine, he should be pursuing this, not you. You need to be there to offer every bit of support that you can, but he is capable of taking the initiative.

I'm not really sure why there's a parents' forum here. I think it's appropriate for parents of college students who have decided to apply and need help figuring out their role in the application process and helping to finance a medical school education. In fact, maybe you should ask SDN to create such a forum, because it's probably more useful. In the meantime, you can learn quite a bit about medical school from other forums.

I'll jump on the bandwagon from this point on. Your son hasn't even entered college, but is seriously considering Caribbean and DO schools? Not a good move. MD's who graduate from Caribbean schools are in the end MD's. But they make tremendous sacrifices. Basically, they have to complete the same pre-reqs without the same academic achievements. Sounds great, since they'll still have a chance at US residencies, but they're limiting themselves.

A good friend of mine went to college because his parents expected him to do so. He had a 3.3 GPA from Boston College...not competitive for med school, but still no slouch. He went to AUC and did all of his clinical rotations (second two years of med school) in NYC. He graduated top of his class, but he still couldn't get a spot in any of the surgery residencies he wanted with a 4.0 in med school.

DO's may become equivalent to MD's in the next 20-30 years, but they face the same bias.

I'm not here to debate what's right or fair, but since you're interested, you should know how it works. If your son wants to be a physician, he should spend the next four years working harder than he ever has to achieve the best possible GPA and MCAT score.

As an older and non-traditional applicant to med school, I feel that you should be careful. Let your son decide what he wants to do without any pressure from you or his family. Pressure him to succeed all you want, but encourage him to succeed in a way that is right for him. Don't push him towards lucrative or prestigious fields. I've known artists who found a way to become independently wealthy or hugely successful in fields that don't ordinarily present tremendous opportunity. If your son feels free to pursue what he loves, and (equally importantly) pressure to make something of it (AKA WE ARE NOT supporting you until you're 35, but we'll be patient enough to let you explore A LITTLE), he will make it, somehow.

If you push him into medicine, or law, or business, and make him feel like he's inadequate otherwise, he will either 1.) rebel or 2.) hate you for it.

Your role as a parent strikes an extremely delicate balance. You can't let him flake out, but you can't push him to do something he doesn't love. Set the boundaries now. Make it clear that you'll pay for X amount of years of school. Don't tell him that you'll only pay for a certain major. But DO make it clear that he has a set amount of time to coast on his parents' financial support, and that whatever he decides, if he loves it and proves that he's good at it, you'll support it.

I say this now as a 30-year-old student who never had financial support. When I decided to go pre-med, it was on my own. In the meantime, I've had dozens of friends who either disappointed their parents by pursuing something unexpected, or (MUCH WORSE) did what their parents wanted them to do and either a.) HATE IT or b.) are now working some menial job and trying to figure out what they want to do.

I'm not saying that you're pushing your kid to do what you think is right. I just think you're best off keeping an open mind while making sure your son knows you won't tolerate sub-par grades in whatever he chooses to study.
 
riverjib said:
DO's may become equivalent to MD's in the next 20-30 years, but they face the same bias.
Click to expand...

What are you blabbering about? MD = DO in every sense of the term?? Legally, they are equals, and DO can not only apply and do match very well into ACGME (MD) residencies, but they can also specialize in their own set of AOA (DO ONLY) residencies in all fields (derm, PRS, ENT, Rads, etc). Get your facts straight before you post. DOs do not face nearly any of the bias FMGs face. FMGs match far worse (79% vs 48%) into ACGME residencies, and they don't have their own set of residencies to apply for in conjunction to ACGME residencies like DOs do. The only 'bias' you're assuming here is some sort of pre-medical, non-existent patient prejudice that doesn't exist in the real world. Ask any of the residents in the DO forums that say they've been asked maybe 1-2 times in 3-7 years of residency and never had to explain anything more than their credentials to put a patient completely at ease. OP, if you are looking for real advice, search the site and listen to med students, residents, and attendings.
 
riverjib said:
I'm sorry to be another one who points this out, but your if your son is already considering medicine, he should be pursuing this, not you. You need to be there to offer every bit of support that you can, but he is capable of taking the initiative.

I'm not really sure why there's a parents' forum here. I think it's appropriate for parents of college students who have decided to apply and need help figuring out their role in the application process and helping to finance a medical school education. In fact, maybe you should ask SDN to create such a forum, because it's probably more useful. In the meantime, you can learn quite a bit about medical school from other forums.

I'll jump on the bandwagon from this point on. Your son hasn't even entered college, but is seriously considering Caribbean and DO schools? Not a good move. MD's who graduate from Caribbean schools are in the end MD's. But they make tremendous sacrifices. Basically, they have to complete the same pre-reqs without the same academic achievements. Sounds great, since they'll still have a chance at US residencies, but they're limiting themselves.

A good friend of mine went to college because his parents expected him to do so. He had a 3.3 GPA from Boston College...not competitive for med school, but still no slouch. He went to AUC and did all of his clinical rotations (second two years of med school) in NYC. He graduated top of his class, but he still couldn't get a spot in any of the surgery residencies he wanted with a 4.0 in med school.

DO's may become equivalent to MD's in the next 20-30 years, but they face the same bias.

I'm not here to debate what's right or fair, but since you're interested, you should know how it works. If your son wants to be a physician, he should spend the next four years working harder than he ever has to achieve the best possible GPA and MCAT score.

As an older and non-traditional applicant to med school, I feel that you should be careful. Let your son decide what he wants to do without any pressure from you or his family. Pressure him to succeed all you want, but encourage him to succeed in a way that is right for him. Don't push him towards lucrative or prestigious fields. I've known artists who found a way to become independently wealthy or hugely successful in fields that don't ordinarily present tremendous opportunity. If your son feels free to pursue what he loves, and (equally importantly) pressure to make something of it (AKA WE ARE NOT supporting you until you're 35, but we'll be patient enough to let you explore A LITTLE), he will make it, somehow.

If you push him into medicine, or law, or business, and make him feel like he's inadequate otherwise, he will either 1.) rebel or 2.) hate you for it.

Your role as a parent strikes an extremely delicate balance. You can't let him flake out, but you can't push him to do something he doesn't love. Set the boundaries now. Make it clear that you'll pay for X amount of years of school. Don't tell him that you'll only pay for a certain major. But DO make it clear that he has a set amount of time to coast on his parents' financial support, and that whatever he decides, if he loves it and proves that he's good at it, you'll support it.

I say this now as a 30-year-old student who never had financial support. When I decided to go pre-med, it was on my own. In the meantime, I've had dozens of friends who either disappointed their parents by pursuing something unexpected, or (MUCH WORSE) did what their parents wanted them to do and either a.) HATE IT or b.) are now working some menial job and trying to figure out what they want to do.

I'm not saying that you're pushing your kid to do what you think is right. I just think you're best off keeping an open mind while making sure your son knows you won't tolerate sub-par grades in whatever he chooses to study.
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:laugh:
 
JaggerPlate said:
What are you blabbering about? MD = DO in every sense of the term?? Legally, they are equals, and DO can not only apply and do match very well into ACGME (MD) residencies, but they can also specialize in their own set of AOA (DO ONLY) residencies in all fields (derm, PRS, ENT, Rads, etc). Get your facts straight before you post. DOs do not face nearly any of the bias FMGs face. FMGs match far worse (79% vs 48%) into ACGME residencies, and they don't have their own set of residencies to apply for in conjunction to ACGME residencies like DOs do. The only 'bias' you're assuming here is some sort of pre-medical, non-existent patient prejudice that doesn't exist in the real world. Ask any of the residents in the DO forums that say they've been asked maybe 1-2 times in 3-7 years of residency and never had to explain anything more than their credentials to put a patient completely at ease. OP, if you are looking for real advice, search the site and listen to med students, residents, and attendings.
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Wow. You're sensitive. Maybe you should find another forum to work out your insecurities.

I don't really care one way or another. It's fine to go the MD or FMG route, but there is still a bias. I didn't say it was right or wrong, but it exists.

Patients may or may not know the difference, but residency programs do. I never advocated against the DO or FMG route, but it stands to reason that the incoming college freshman interested in medical school should strive for the 3.5+ GPA and 30+ MCAT that gives them a chance at a US med school, unless they WANT to go the DO route. US MD's have the best chance at doing whatever it is that they want to.

I'm not telling you what you should have done. Don't take advice directed towards others personally. But be realistic when imparting advice to the next generation. Succeeding as undergraduates maximizes their chances in the future. If you chose the DO route because you believe in osteopathic medicine, then by all means, tell everyone why they should pursue that route. But if you chose to go to DO school because you didn't get into an MD program, don't criticize others who still want the MD degree.
 
riverjib said:
Wow. You're sensitive. Maybe you should find another forum to work out your insecurities.

I don't really care one way or another. It's fine to go the MD or FMG route, but there is still a bias. I didn't say it was right or wrong, but it exists.

Patients may or may not know the difference, but residency programs do. I never advocated against the DO or FMG route, but it stands to reason that the incoming college freshman interested in medical school should strive for the 3.5+ GPA and 30+ MCAT that gives them a chance at a US med school, unless they WANT to go the DO route. US MD's have the best chance at doing whatever it is that they want to.

I'm not telling you what you should have done. Don't take advice directed towards others personally. But be realistic when imparting advice to the next generation. Succeeding as undergraduates maximizes their chances in the future. If you chose the DO route because you believe in osteopathic medicine, then by all means, tell everyone why they should pursue that route. But if you chose to go to DO school because you didn't get into an MD program, don't criticize others who still want the MD degree.
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The problem here is that you are posting misinformation with conviction in every single statement you make. Just here in this post for example:

1. You claim that US med school does some how not include the US trained DO. This is completely incorrect. In all 50 states in the union, DOs have identical rights to MDs, practice in identical fields, and are compensated the same for their services.

2. It is incorrect to assert that a 3.5/30 automatically = MD acceptance or that anyone who takes anything besides a US MD acceptance has someone achieved less. I personally have a 30+ MCAT and will be attending a DO school, and the difficult of matriculating to individual schools depends a lot of a student's state of residence (publicly funded schools), and a combination of good grades, a strong MCAT, extra curricular activities, and a well written, convincing personal statement.

3. There is nothing that says the MD will give you the best chance at doing what you want ... and this is where your information starts to get absurd. People who attend US MD schools have a better chance of specializing in ACGME residencies. That is fine, and completely fair. However, it should be noted that US DO students match well into ACGME residencies and also have their own set of AOA funded residencies in every field to match into. Matching from a US medical school is really more about the student's drive and ambition than it is about the school they attend. A student from a well known DO school with a high USMLE, good pre-clinical and clinical grades, good LORs, etc, is going to match better into ACGME than a student from a MD school with lower stats.

This means that any US degree, MD or DO, gives you a better chance to land a residency. The biggest problem with the Caribbean, and why it is foolish and harmful to tell people to blindly take the route, is because they have a much lesser chance at matching into an ACGME residency. The Caribbean match rates is something like 48%. That means half match, half don't. If you don't get into a residency, you cannot practice. Period. There was recently an article about a Ross grad who couldn't land a residency and is now working construction in Washington DC with 250k in debt. This also doesn't even touch the high attrition rates, clinical training issues, or higher tuition. A caribbean MD does NOT equal a US MD simply because they use the same letters. This is false, and if it is what you are advocating (which is what it sounds like), you are wrong and doing harm. The goal should be to get into a US medical school, and you do not have to have a special bond to osteopathic medicine to attend a DO school. A large majority of DO students attend these schools because they want to be physicians. Period. Just the same way allo students attend MD schools. They are smart, dedicated, and match well. Now, does this mean some of them would have probably rather gone to a US MD school? Maybe. But this isn't the point. The point is that they achieve a medical degree in the US, and have a great chance of matching and practicing because of it. The same cannot be said for some of the foreign medical schools. I'm also not criticizing those who still want the MD degree, that is fine and I get it, but I do not think it is wise to advocate attending a foreign medical school to obtain this degree because in the end, residency > simply having an MD.

You are, frankly, horribly misinformed and should probably think twice before you give such flawed advice to others. Do some research before you make such claims and influence other people.


** Please note, I am not trying to offend anyone who goes to the Caribbean. People who do should attend one of the big three, work hard, and match. Those who do this have their own reasons, but I will still always advocate going to any US medical school (MD or DO) above the Caribbean and this seems to be the opinion of foreign medical students, program directors, et al.
 
I hate all these "x vs y" threads. It isn't an epic battle between two things. Simply two slightly different pathways to the same job. I'd pick DO every time over Carribean. This is coming from a US MD student that almost went to a DO school. There is always some carribean person that anecdotes the hell out of you about how great their education is, but while there are people that succeed, your chances are much lower than staying on the mainland+ hawaii.
 
The OP posted her question here in April, I'm assuming she has her answer by now.

This forum is intended to be for parents of HS students to ask questions. It is not the appropriate venue for people to host their pre-existing arguments.

Given that the thread has run it's course and the OP's question is likely answered, I am closing this thread.
 
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