KCUMB to offer MD,DO degree?????

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JaggerPlate said:
You learn something every day.




Do you really not see any legal logic in what I'm saying?? I'm sure I could spend a few hours slumming around the internet and find various cases where this has happened, but I don't want to. I mean, if I said something that is totally outrageous from a legal standpoint, then okay ... maybe I'm wrong, but a. I really think it wouldn't be hard to find a precedent and b. I don't think my statement was absurd.
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Well, for me, it depends on how it plays out. If absolutely nothing changed in regards to curriculum, accreditation, etc. then, yeah, its pretty likely it could occur. That is assuming all they did was rename the degree they confer. But that begs the question, could they maintain COCA accreditation?

However, if for example, the LCME became involved (in order to grant the MD portion) with accreditation and something else were to change, I think they (LCME) might have something to say about past classes who were not subject to review of their standards, even if there really isn't much of anything different going on. If anything significant changed, I think it would be hard to get older classes the new degree. In any case, I think it would be much more of a mess than you seem to think.
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IDBasco said:
Well, for me, it depends on how it plays out. If absolutely nothing changed in regards to curriculum, accreditation, etc. then, yeah, its pretty likely it could occur. That is assuming all they did was rename the degree they confer. But that begs the question, could they maintain COCA accrediation?

However, if for example, the LCME became involved (in order to grant the MD portion) with accreditation or something else were to change, I think they (LCME) might have something to say about past classes who were not subject to review of their standards, even if there really isn't much of anything different going on. In any case, I think it would be much more of a mess than you seem to think.
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I agree ... but if the LCME gets involved, then this isn't a process that will happen for YEARS. Plus, the COCA/AOA would catch on and problem drop their status some time along the way, meaning there could be a weird lame duck period where students at the school could be working for a degree with no real accreditation. However, I think you're right that if the LCME said at X date ... the degree is MD, then people might have a hard time. But if they kept the COCA accred and went forward, you'd have more legitamate fight. I think you'll still have people trying to get in on it either way.
 
My thing is this. What happens when other school follow in KCUMB's footsteps and start awarding MD,DO degrees so that all the newer generation of students, those in the Classes of 2015, 2016, 2017, etc. are MD,DO and all the people in the classes before that are plain DO? So now we have MD's, we have DO's, and we have MD, DO's, all licensed physicians. If the DO's were complaining about patient confusion before, imagine what they'll say now that with the MD,DO degree, it makes it seem the plain DO's are lacking something to not have an MD.
 
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If an "MD, DO" degree did ever become widespread (in God knows however long that would be), I would think that there would be an option for DO's from older classes to obtain that "MD" portion, whether it be an examination or some type of CME class. It wouldn't be right to just give DO's the cold shoulder.
 
Semicolon said:
If an "MD, DO" degree did ever become widespread (in God knows however long that would be), I would think that there would be an option for DO's from older classes to obtain that "MD" portion, whether it be an examination or some type of CME class. It wouldn't be right to just give DO's the cold shoulder.
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Not only from other classes at KCUMB, but graduates from other osteopathic schools would also want the same MD, DO recognition for equal training.
 
Semicolon said:
If an "MD, DO" degree did ever become widespread (in God knows however long that would be), I would think that there would be an option for DO's from older classes to obtain that "MD" portion, whether it be an examination or some type of CME class. It wouldn't be right to just give DO's the cold shoulder.
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Agreed.
 
Old_Mil said:
You'll either get over it or end up as that lone hippie FP who hands out medical MJ to all his chronic pain patients and wears beads and burlap to bicycle to work...
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and what would be wrong with that? :p
 
I just noticed that this claim is off of wikkipedia.
 
MedStudentWanna said:
Can anyone confirm or deny this???

KCUMB is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools and recognized by the Coordinating Board of Higher Education for the Missouri Department of Higher Education. KCUMB is currently in the process of receiving MD accreditation. If successful KCUMB will be the first school to begin offering an MD,DO degree to all incoming students. Ideally the program will be in place for the incoming class of 2013.

It's from Wiki, so I'm skeptical, but where did it come from??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_University_of_Medicine_and_Biosciences
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I don't see it anymore- sounds like someone edited wikipedia, and it got taken down since this was never going to happen.
 
ronaldo23 said:
I don't see it anymore- sounds like someone edited wikipedia, and it got taken down since this was never going to happen.
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Unless you're from the school, you have no idea that "it was never going to happen".
 
All of the unforeseen baggage inherent in this degree is becoming a tragic comedy.
 
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I'm a 2nd year at KCUMB... We all got an email talking about a branch campus in southern Missouri. (puts on tinfoil hat-don't need any strikes against my professionalism...) I was told by a buddy in a position to know that the school was pursuing an MD degree at the other campus.

Keep in mind just this is second hand info, so just because they were told something doesn't mean its going to happen. But if true, thats a heck of way to throw us under the bus.
 
group_theory said:
I am very surprised that because this information was posted on Wiki, and without corroborating evidence to suppose it, that some of you are willing to believe that it might be true or a hint that it may be true. Even more incredulous, it seems some of you are taking the position that it's true until proven otherwise. Please don't fall into the "Wikiality" mindset
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Except there are now two KCUMB students who are both vouching for it. It's possible to be a KCUMB student and not have heard, but to be a KCUMB and have heard is reasonable. So unless we're going to call those two posters liars, it's understandable why some people are believing this.
 
Murphy Brown said:
Except there are now two KCUMB students who are both vouching for it. It's possible to be a KCUMB student and not have heard, but to be a KCUMB and have heard is reasonable. So unless we're going to call those two posters liars, it's understandable why some people are believing this.
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I think both students are saying the school wants to open an MD branch, to offer the MD degree separate from the DO degree. Two schools, operated by the same people, offering two degrees. Schools such as MSU and UMDNJ already do this with no blending of the degrees offered.
 
JaggerPlate said:
I think both students are saying the school wants to open an MD branch, to offer the MD degree separate from the DO degree. Two schools, operated by the same people, offering two degrees.
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Nope. Here's the first post from the first page. This backs up what the Wiki article said:

Originally Posted by Alpha Block
I am a student at KCUMB and I have heard the rumors as well. I can say with all certainty that this is more than just a rumor. Admin at KCUMB are actively investigating this and if they can pull it off, all incoming KCUMB students will graduate with both a MD and DO, probably starting in the next two years. However, it could fall through. It is much more than a rumor, but it's possible nothing comes of it.
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Murphy Brown said:
Nope. Here's the first post from the first page. This backs up what the Wiki article said:



[/I]
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I was talking about weatherman ... go read his post - it says branch campus where they want to offer the MD degree. I know that the original poster said MD/DO from KCUMB, but I was referring to weatherman. Sorry for any confusion.
 
JaggerPlate said:
I was talking about weatherman ... go read his post - it says branch campus where they want to offer the MD degree. I know that the original poster said MD/DO from KCUMB, but I was referring to weatherman. Sorry for any confusion.
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I did read his post, but you said both students so I assumed you were talking about the one on the first page too.

I'm not a student at KCUMB (applying this year) but I'd guess if any school is going to do this it'd be KCUMB. They're trailblazers over there.
 
Murphy Brown said:
I did read his post, but you said both students so I assumed you were talking about the one on the first page too.

I'm not a student at KCUMB (applying this year) but I'd guess if any school is going to do this it'd be KCUMB. They're trailblazers over there.
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Gotcha, I didn't mean to say/imply both students, just weatherman. Great school though ... if anyone could pull it off, it'd be a school like KCUMB.
 
Alpha Block said:
I am a student at KCUMB and I have heard the rumors as well. I can say with all certainty that this is more than just a rumor. Admin at KCUMB are actively investigating this and if they can pull it off, all incoming KCUMB students will graduate with both a MD and DO, probably starting in the next two years. However, it could fall through. It is much more than a rumor, but it's possible nothing comes of it.
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weatherman1 said:
I'm a 2nd year at KCUMB... We all got an email talking about a branch campus in southern Missouri. (puts on tinfoil hat-don't need any strikes against my professionalism...) I was told by a buddy in a position to know that the school was pursuing an MD degree at the other campus.

Keep in mind just this is second hand info, so just because they were told something doesn't mean its going to happen. But if true, thats a heck of way to throw us under the bus.
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Murphy Brown said:
Except there are now two KCUMB students who are both vouching for it. It's possible to be a KCUMB student and not have heard, but to be a KCUMB and have heard is reasonable. So unless we're going to call those two posters liars, it's understandable why some people are believing this.
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Except you do not have 2 KCUMB vouching for it - you have one students who have heard rumors and another student who heard from another student that KCUMB is looking at openning an MD branch campus. And you have a Wiki article where the controversial content have been removed. Nothing from KCUMB's website, alumni journal, AOA posts, news organization, etc. When TCOM/UNTHSC started exploring the MD option, there were multiple sources confirming the story.

So I still remain extremely skeptical and I think the phrase in the wiki entry (that started this entire thread) was done by one person who edited the thread to reflect what that person wanted to be true (and if it's on wiki, it must be true).

EDIT: if a current student at KCUMB really wants to know if this is true or not, just look at the board of trustee meetings - the administration must get approval from the board of trustees before even beginning to investigate the feasibility of granting the MD degree in addition to the DO degree - if there is no mention of this anywhere within the minutes from their recent meetings, it's likely a rumor. Hopefully the meetings from the board of trustee are public access or open to the KCUMB community.
 
MSU has been the very first university that has been offering DO and MD curriculum as far back as 1970's if not earlier. I guess UMDNJ also has both (not sure). May be KCUMB is the only proprietorship school that is offering both degrees for the first time!
 
Once again Doc Trek, the article wasn't about offering a DO program and an MD program. It said that KCUMB was planning to offer ALL students a DO,MD. It's an entirely different degree than a DO and an MD. It's a combination of the two. It's intriguing.
 
don't think they can do it without LCME accrediation.
 
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If I understand it correctly I guess what you mean is that upon graduation students will become both an MD and DO simultaneously; and by the same token they cannot enroll in just one the 2 programs as an incoming class (MD or DO) but both simultaneously. If this is the case, I guess the program is going to be unique in the world!
 
Handy388 said:
don't think they can do it without AAMC accrediation.
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Im sure you probably meant to say LCME accredidation. Either way several DO schools have already had site visits from the LCME and I wouldnt be suprised if KCUMB was one of them. I would doubt getting LCME approval would be a big problem. Not that it is necessary. The LCME/AAMC doesnt own the "MD". Any school could technically hand it out although i think the point here is that KCUMB would want to be dually accredited by COCA and LCME. Either way its probably a stupid rumor and probably has not truth to it whatsoever. Ive only heard of this on SDN and not in "real life". My concern is that the new branch campus is going to "water down" KCUMB's reputation. The school has a pretty good reputation among residency programs. If the new school isnt up to par its going to hurt all KCUMB students.
 
Handy388 said:
don't think they can do it without AAMC accrediation.
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That's what the thread was about. They said that KCUMB was trying to get accreditation so that they could offer an MD,DO degree to all students.
 
Do they even need LCME accred?? I mean, couldn't they remain accredited through AOA/COCA and hand out the DO degree as the licensed medical degree? That way, people would still be licensed to practice in all 50 states through the DO boards?? I don't know how it works, but one time I saw these two docs in Chicago who got DOs then went through one of those pathetic DO to MD programs, got the MD essentially for show only - especially because this degree on it's own probably wouldn't be legal in any states, but stayed licensed physicians through the DO. Couldn't this work the same way?? Ethical issue?? Dunno.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Do they even need LCME accred?? I mean, couldn't they remain accredited through AOA/COCA and hand out the DO degree as the licensed medical degree? That way, people would still be licensed to practice in all 50 states through the DO boards?? I don't know how it works, but one time I saw these two docs in Chicago who got DOs then went through one of those pathetic DO to MD programs, got the MD essentially for show only - especially because this degree on it's own probably wouldn't be legal in any states, but stayed licensed physicians through the DO. Couldn't this work the same way?? Ethical issue?? Dunno.
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If that happens, the backlash against the DO community may not be very good.
 
I would support gaining LCME accreditation in addition to COCA. I think the more accreditation, the better. If you take an honest look at the curriculum at KCUMB it is exactly the same as MD schools in the area (w/ slightly less Biochemisty) + limited OMM. Given the fact that the majority of DO students attend ACGME residencies and many/most at KCUMB take both the USMLE and COMLEX I see no disadvantage to having accreditation from both LCME and COCA. We can have the advantage of dual accreditation while retaining the unique parts of our curriculum.

As a side note, someone who went to the AOA general convention last year told me they discussed the possibility of eliminating the COMLEX all together and instead using the USMLE + a special section covering OMT.
 
I am a KCUMB alumni. Earlier today an email was sent to alumni (perhaps current students too?) from President Karen Pletz regarding the DO/MD degree, see below:


Recently, an e-mail was circulated regarding KCUMB's consideration of the offering of a dual DO/MD degree. That e-mail stated that a proposal had been presented tot he KCUMB Board to seek this degree and the LCME accreditation which would be required in order to offer a dual degree.

First, to clarify, the University faculty and staff have been exploring ways to ensure that the future of osteopathic medical education remains viable in the face of a number of serious concerns, including:

§ the AAMC mandate to increase class size by 30% by 2015;

§ the continued failure to raise the federal caps on post doctoral training slots in the U.S.;

§ the dramatic increase in accreditation of new osteopathic medical schools and increases in class sizes/and/or additional locations by others;

§ the restriction of VSAS – Visiting Student Application Service – the centralized application service for allopathic clinical clerkship electives, which over 60% of our students currently fill – to allopathic students only, excluding osteopathic students;

§ the increasing pressure on allopathic post doctoral programs, in which 62% of KCUMB graduates seek residency slots and the certain indication that these slots will go first to graduates of LCME accredited schools;

§ the increasing prevalence of Caribbean medical schools contracting with hospital systems across the country for exclusive rights to clinical clerkships;

§ the current AOA/COCA initiatives to accredit foreign osteopathic medical schools without requiring them to assure available residency slots for the period of seven years.

These very real concerns, which were thoroughly discussed in the spring Communicator titled The Changing Landscape of Medicine, have led to the consideration of a major leadership move for osteopathic medical education.

We would remain an osteopathic institution. We are not considering an MD option, as the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine Board of Regents approved during the third week of November. We also are not considering giving applicants a choice of degree.

All student applicants to KCUMB’s College of Osteopathic Medicine would be applying for a dual degree, from a College of Osteopathic Medicine. But having that dual degree offers access by our students and graduates to programs currently or increasingly restricted to graduates of LCME accredited institutions.

These issues have been identified as of major concern by AACOM and other osteopathic institutions, as well as the AOA.

KCUMB, as you know, has worked continuously to build the quality of our programs and to keep a continuous strategic eye to the future.

It has been our practice to endeavor to have control over our future, and not wait for external circumstances to control us.

If you have questions or concerns, or wish to provide input, please let me know.

Once again, we are and always will be an osteopathic college of Medicine (KCUMB-COM) and our mission would not change. We are considering this opportunity in order to advance osteopathic medical education, and the opportunities to our students in the future.

That is our charge.

Best wishes for a wonderful holiday season!

Karen L. Pletz, J.D.
President and Chief Executive Officer
Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences
1750 Independence Ave.
Kansas City, MO 64106-1453
816-283-2301
816-283-2303 (fax)
[email protected]
 
So what does this have to do with graduates? Do they get the DO/MD degree which I highly advocate?

I hope all other COM's follow suit.
 
Radiate said:
I am a KCUMB alumni. Earlier today an email was sent to alumni (perhaps current students too?) from President Karen Pletz regarding the DO/MD degree, see below:


Recently, an e-mail was circulated regarding KCUMB's consideration of the offering of a dual DO/MD degree. That e-mail stated that a proposal had been presented tot he KCUMB Board to seek this degree and the LCME accreditation which would be required in order to offer a dual degree.

First, to clarify, the University faculty and staff have been exploring ways to ensure that the future of osteopathic medical education remains viable in the face of a number of serious concerns, including:

§ the AAMC mandate to increase class size by 30% by 2015;

§ the continued failure to raise the federal caps on post doctoral training slots in the U.S.;

§ the dramatic increase in accreditation of new osteopathic medical schools and increases in class sizes/and/or additional locations by others;

§ the restriction of VSAS – Visiting Student Application Service – the centralized application service for allopathic clinical clerkship electives, which over 60% of our students currently fill – to allopathic students only, excluding osteopathic students;

§ the increasing pressure on allopathic post doctoral programs, in which 62% of KCUMB graduates seek residency slots and the certain indication that these slots will go first to graduates of LCME accredited schools;

§ the increasing prevalence of Caribbean medical schools contracting with hospital systems across the country for exclusive rights to clinical clerkships;

§ the current AOA/COCA initiatives to accredit foreign osteopathic medical schools without requiring them to assure available residency slots for the period of seven years.

These very real concerns, which were thoroughly discussed in the spring Communicator titled The Changing Landscape of Medicine, have led to the consideration of a major leadership move for osteopathic medical education.

We would remain an osteopathic institution. We are not considering an MD option, as the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine Board of Regents approved during the third week of November. We also are not considering giving applicants a choice of degree.

All student applicants to KCUMB's College of Osteopathic Medicine would be applying for a dual degree, from a College of Osteopathic Medicine. But having that dual degree offers access by our students and graduates to programs currently or increasingly restricted to graduates of LCME accredited institutions.

These issues have been identified as of major concern by AACOM and other osteopathic institutions, as well as the AOA.

KCUMB, as you know, has worked continuously to build the quality of our programs and to keep a continuous strategic eye to the future.

It has been our practice to endeavor to have control over our future, and not wait for external circumstances to control us.

If you have questions or concerns, or wish to provide input, please let me know.

Once again, we are and always will be an osteopathic college of Medicine (KCUMB-COM) and our mission would not change. We are considering this opportunity in order to advance osteopathic medical education, and the opportunities to our students in the future.

That is our charge.

Best wishes for a wonderful holiday season!

Karen L. Pletz, J.D.
President and Chief Executive Officer
Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences
1750 Independence Ave.
Kansas City, MO 64106-1453
816-283-2301
816-283-2303 (fax)
[email protected]
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Ummm wow. The fact that they are even considering/working on this is huge. However, it doesn't sound like it would affect other COMs or graduated DOs because they wouldn't have applied for the 'dual degree' program. I wonder how this would go over as far as other people wanting the DO/MD from DO institutions. My guess, is that it would cause a HUGE fuss. Also, does this mean that they are trying to do this dual degree without LCME approval??? Anyone want to even fathom what entering class they would want this for/how this applies specifically to their alumni? Crazy. I cannot wait for this to unfold.
 
I would assume that if this does work other DO schools will follow suit pretty quickly.

I actually had a feeling that this would happen in the next decade, just because there has been so much talk of it. I think I've even seen it on the Presidenf of the AOA's blog..
 
ncguy2005 said:
I would assume that if this does work other DO schools will follow suit pretty quickly.

I actually had a feeling that this would happen in the next decade, just because there has been so much talk of it. I think I've even seen it on the Presidenf of the AOA's blog..
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It depends (with regards to following suit). If they need LCME to offer the DO,MD degree, then I assume the LCME would have to sign off on the 3/4 year rotations, and I'm not sure how this would work with certain schools. This seems pretty intense to me all around though, I mean to see an email from the head of KCUMB talking about this. It just makes me wonder what, if anything, will come from this, what the AOA has to say about it, what other schools will do about it, what practicing/newly graduated DOs are going to want/do about it. Etc ETC!!
 
With the LCME accreditation, the degree, with whatever initials they want to put behind it, will be golden. There's no question in my mind that KCUMBs applicant quality would improve and it's applications would rise if they make it happen.

I hope they follow through with it, and other DO schools follow suit. I don't care so much about the initials as I do about the LCME accreditation, i.e. No more getting shut out of certain rotations, and it'll level the playing field (somewhat) when the time comes to apply for residencies.
 
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Oh and to graduate with two professional doctorates for essentially the same amount of effort that we're putting in now for one would be awesome.
 
I know at some schools there was also a recent push to change the name of the osteopathic degree to "MDO" (Medical Doctor of Osteopathy), or something similar to help distinguish it from foreign medical grads of osteopathy.
 
KCUMB is just doing what is inevitably necessary to protect itself. COCA and the AOA long ago abrogated their responsibility to maintain the quality of the profession. Allowing for-profit schools that degrade the profession, irresponsible increases in class sizes, opening of multiple branch campuses, ignoring clinical education and the overall economy and pressure on the health care system are going to leave osteopathic medicine on the dust pile of history. The dual degree at KCUMB (and others sure to follow) is but an interim stop on the way to just an MD degree, with a little OMT thrown in. Maybe this is even desirable, but it is a little sad for those of us who believe that osteopathic philosophy (not just OMT) actually provides better patient care then allopathic practice.
Well, at least maybe the owners of RVU got to buy themselves something nice.
 
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These kinds of debates make me cringe. It's a lot of silliness, usually, with changing the degrees/merging the degrees and all the issues that would come with any option we choose. Why not effectively educate the people on what a DO is? I know that in my small town, after I educated the elderly community who did not know what a DO was, they were all happy to accept the new osteopathic physician in town. This may sound cliched, but I think communication is the key here. Sure, we might change/merge the degrees someday, but communicating is something we can do now.
 
DO Anes said:
KCUMB is just doing what is inevitably necessary to protect itself. COCA and the AOA long ago abrogated their responsibility to maintain the quality of the profession. Allowing for-profit schools that degrade the profession, irresponsible increases in class sizes, opening of multiple branch campuses, ignoring clinical education and the overall economy and pressure on the health care system are going to leave osteopathic medicine on the dust pile of history. The dual degree at KCUMB (and others sure to follow) is but an interim stop on the way to just an MD degree, with a little OMT thrown in. Maybe this is even desirable, but it is a little sad for those of us who believe that osteopathic philosophy (not just OMT) actually provides better patient care then allopathic practice.
Well, at least maybe the owners of RVU got to buy themselves something nice.
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Hey Doc!! Long time no see. So, what is your opinion on what is needed for LCME approval in years 3/4 and DO schools that may not meet these standards in wanting to switch to a DO, MD model?
 
1. The better schools get LCME approved and offer the DO/MD.
2. Applicants to DO/MD skyrocket, DO only dwindle.
3. The RVU's, branch campuses, ATSU hubs, etc. close.
4. DO/MD schools drop the DO.
5. As economy impacts health care, Fed Govt eliminates reimbursement for most DO's who did not grad from LCME institution or ACGME residency.
6. ACGME closes to DO's.
7. Few remaining DO's limited to manipulation only, but eligible to apply for accelerated admission to chiropractic schools.

I didn't mention the AOA or COCA, as they are irrelevant.
 
The schools that pass LCME will be the ones with a proper clinical program. One FP, IM and surgeon with a hundred volunteer, part-time and amateur clinical faculty does not a medical school make.
Make no mistake, this profession is finished. Maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow, but it will inevitably come and sooner rather than later. You cannot ignore standards, accepted educational models and permit rinky-dink schools to proliferate without eventually bringing down the house of cards.
Anyway, RVU can easily become yet another Denver area office building.
 
DO Anes said:
1. The better schools get LCME approved and offer the DO/MD.
2. Applicants to DO/MD skyrocket, DO only dwindle.
3. The RVU's, branch campuses, ATSU hubs, etc. close.
4. DO/MD schools drop the DO.
5. As economy impacts health care, Fed Govt eliminates reimbursement for most DO's who did not grad from LCME institution or ACGME residency.
6. ACGME closes to DO's.
7. Few remaining DO's limited to manipulation only, but eligible to apply for accelerated admission to chiropractic schools.

I didn't mention the AOA or COCA, as they are irrelevant.
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So do you think PCOM's Georgia campus is a bad idea? I mean some branch campuses don't seem like that bad of an idea. PCOM's is small (only like 80 students).

UNC is at least doing something similar to a branch campus. Their plans are to expand at Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, which would essentially double the size of the class (I think I saw the numbers would go from like 160 to around 220/240).
 
I'm just surprised that RVU hasn't opened a branch in New Mexico or Montana yet. After all, get while the getting's good.
 
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