I'm pretty dumb - Advice greatly appreciated.

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Awesome321123

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I would appreciate anyone's advice on what they think would be the best course of action for me to take.

I was charged with a DUI not too long ago and I know this wont be enough, but I realize what I did was stupid and immature and could potentially ruin my whole life. Though it is no consolation, I did not hit anyone nor anything, I was just pulled over because I made a wrong turn on a confusing intersection into a one way lane going the opposite direction (There were no cars on the road and I immediately turned off - but just some background).

Okay... so neway, it seems like I am going to be convicted of it. I did not take the Breathalyzer so I am going to be charged with a DUI and a refusal.

This also happened on the day I found out I got into medical school.... I am not a student yet I start this August and am wondering if anyone knows anyone that has gone through something similar to my situation would know what the best course of action to take was? Thank you anyone for your input in advance I greatly appreciate it, and if you would like to bash me and yell at me go ahead, i know i deserve it...
 
Awesome321123 said:
I would appreciate anyone's advice on what they think would be the best course of action for me to take.

I was charged with a DUI not too long ago and I know this wont be enough, but I realize what I did was stupid and immature and could potentially ruin my whole life. Though it is no consolation, I did not hit anyone nor anything, I was just pulled over because I made a wrong turn on a confusing intersection into a one way lane going the opposite direction (There were no cars on the road and I immediately turned off - but just some background).

Okay... so neway, it seems like I am going to be convicted of it. I did not take the Breathalyzer so I am going to be charged with a DUI and a refusal.

This also happened on the day I found out I got into medical school.... I am not a student yet I start this August and am wondering if anyone knows anyone that has gone through something similar to my situation would know what the best course of action to take was? Thank you anyone for your input in advance I greatly appreciate it, and if you would like to bash me and yell at me go ahead, i know i deserve it...
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You realize you did something very bad, so I'm not going to beat you up more ....

Check into a respected alcohol treatment program (outpatient). Show that you are doing something about this issue and that it will never be problem again. Show that you are serious about it and pray a lot.

Take a look at this article:
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2005/07/01/med

""The students face a background check to become a resident anyway. This gives them a chance to get the necessary material together in case they had a DUI or something like that. They have to show they went through an alcohol program."" :luck:
 
I think it may be a good time to get counsel from a lawyer on your options, as far as the chances they may revoke your acceptance. My advice, however, is to speak to someone in the med school, maybe even a counselor at the school (if you can access them prior to matriculation). Times have changed, and I believe it is now routine for med schools to get a background check, which typically is done at some point after acceptance. This includes records of criminal convictions. I think you would be starting on the wrong foot with the school if they were to find out about this conviction later. Sure, there's a chance the records they receive will not be updated with your most recent conviction, and they'll never know. But here's the rub...

Unfortunately, you should be worried about more than just med school. These same background checks are conducted by residency programs. People lose residency positions, after match, for things like this that are not disclosed. In addition, VA security has bumped up a little, too. So, if your school includes rotations through a VA hospital, this may be discovered as well.

Hopefully some in a similar situation wil come forward, but I think you might be able to live through this if you disclose everything to the school and commit to long-term treatment. I wouldn't brag too much about the details of the event, but I think it would help if they realized your actions harmed no one else.
 
Bertelman said:
I think it may be a good time to get counsel from a lawyer on your options,
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Agree. Not sure how the OP knows he will be convicted, but if this is still a live case, this is the kind of thing you probably want to fight tooth and nail, and hope to find a way to plead to something nominal like a moving violation, rather than take a conviction.
 
Thank you guys for your input. In no way am i bragging about what happened, It is tough to get through every single day just thinking about what I did. I in no way was a shoe in for medical school I applied last year didn't get in and was lucky to have the opportunity to go this year. I just thought that the more details I give the better suggestions I may get.

I am fighting tooth and nail but as the days wear on closer to my trial it all seems to get more hopeless... The state in which I got the DUI is incredibly notorious for being strict and my lawyers say that it is almost unavoidable, though we are doing everything we can.

The terms of the conviction are going to be me going through an alcohol awareness program, and I completely agree with full disclosure to the medical school; I just don't know when.... Before classes start in August... after classes start... closer to 2nd year when the background check will come into play (hoping by then I get it expunged from my record... though it may be doubtful I can).... neway

Thanks for all the help everyone, its greatly appreciated.
 
If you have the means to fight the conviction, by all means fight it. Does your state have deferred prosecution for DUIs? If so, then you go get an assessment, and you go to treatment. If you're not obviously addicted, then you can do outpatient at night, not the typical "3 hots and a cot."

But by all means, own up to the consequences of your actions, and take this as an opportunity to expose yourself to addiction treatment. Think of how many patients you'll have who will benefit.

And don't worry, you can still be president with a DUI. Get another and you can only be VP though.
 
Awesome321123 said:
Thank you guys for your input. In no way am i bragging about what happened, It is tough to get through every single day just thinking about what I did. I in no way was a shoe in for medical school I applied last year didn't get in and was lucky to have the opportunity to go this year. I just thought that the more details I give the better suggestions I may get.

I am fighting tooth and nail but as the days wear on closer to my trial it all seems to get more hopeless... The state in which I got the DUI is incredibly notorious for being strict and my lawyers say that it is almost unavoidable, though we are doing everything we can.

The terms of the conviction are going to be me going through an alcohol awareness program, and I completely agree with full disclosure to the medical school; I just don't know when.... Before classes start in August... after classes start... closer to 2nd year when the background check will come into play (hoping by then I get it expunged from my record... though it may be doubtful I can).... neway

Thanks for all the help everyone, its greatly appreciated.
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I like Bertelman's suggestion: "I think it may be a good time to get counsel from a lawyer on your options, as far as the chances they may revoke your acceptance. "

Talk to you attorney and have them help you with the med school issue as well. They are already on your payroll, so this is incremental. They probably deal with this kind of thing and will explain what your options are. Good attorneys know how to word issues like this and how to present them so that you have the best chance. See what they say. Based on their advice, you'll be able to make a better decision on when and how to approach the medical school about this. My opinion is sooner is better, but I'm not a lawyer.
 
I'm not really sure what you mean by deferred prosecution, the state is Virginia, and they have an alcoholic awareness program. It's like 1 time a week for 1 hour, 10 weeks total. Thanks for the help =)
 
Tell them you are an alcoholoic, they bend over backwards to help the "learning disadvantaged" or whatever, you just have a disease thats all. GO to rehab if you cant shuck the charges, but your a smart kid (not that smart if you were dding, or getting caught) but you can get oof it. If not, well you deserve whatyou get. Drunk driving kills. Dumba**.
 
Trail Boss said:
...Drunk driving kills. Dumba**.
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I was thinking the same thing. Why all the sympathy here? My wife was run off the road by a drunk driver 2 years ago and I have very little understanding of those who simply say "alcoholism is just a disease". Stupidity is an even more deadly disease. You chose to drive in your condition, period. Ultimately, we are products of the decisions we make in everyday life. If you make poor decisions, then don't go looking for ways to work the system and get ahead.
 
Go talk to the DA and see about a deferment. That way if you keep your nose clean (and I mean CLEAN) for a period of time, the charge gets wiped as if it never happened. But if you mess up again, it comes back and you have to pay the penalty (money and/or jail) agreed upon or go to trial.
 
there isn't an excuse for drunk driving, but i'm not going to berrate you here. you know what you did was ******ed.

you need to talk to a lawyer ASAP. get deferment or whatever program you can. honesty is probably the best policy when it comes to schools, maybe even the police (let your lawyer decide). "i have a problem and am going to get some help" is way easier to defend than "dude, relax, it was just one mistake." a DUI will hit on a background check, which you will get for probably both med school and rotations and residency. but if you can show you've "grown" and "learned" since then, they'll likely rubber-stamp you through.

in the grand scheme of things it likely will not bring the end of your medical career. BUT you know what could have happened. call a taxi or a friend.
 
toofache32 said:
I was thinking the same thing. Why all the sympathy here? My wife was run off the road by a drunk driver 2 years ago and I have very little understanding of those who simply say "alcoholism is just a disease". Stupidity is an even more deadly disease. You chose to drive in your condition, period. Ultimately, we are products of the decisions we make in everyday life. If you make poor decisions, then don't go looking for ways to work the system and get ahead.
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I don't agree with a lot of things that people do (drunk driving is high on my list of things I disagree with). However, I have no control over what other people (especially people I don't know) do. Sadly, quite a few people (including a lot of doctors) drive drunk often, and I don't see any decrease in sight. There are doctors who are alcoholics (one woman I worked with was married to a successful cardiologist who fell drunk off a party boat and drowned). Something like 40,000 people are killed on U.S. roads every year due to drunk driving and many hundreds of thousands are injured. The cost is staggering. I've been to more funerals of drunk-driving related accidents than any other kind of funeral.

The OP is not getting off or working the system as far as I can tell. He knows he did something dumb (hence the thread title), and he's simply asking what he should do. These early criminal background checks are fairly new, so it's a bit uncharted territory. Even though he committed a crime, he won't be taken to the city gate and stoned. He will face certain discipline, and it's not our opportunity to decide what punishment he will get. As a society we have certain rules that come into play and I just gave him my amateur opinion, which is to get treatment and talk to professionals (lawyers) who know the rights and process involved.
 
OncoCaP said:
Something like 40,000 people are killed on U.S. roads every year due to drunk driving and many hundreds of thousands are injured. The cost is staggering. I've been to more funerals of drunk-driving related accidents than any other kind of funeral.
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False, alcohol related traffic fatalities are less than 1/2 the number that you quoted and the number is generally falling every year. Last year 16885 traffic deaths were related to alcohol out of 43443 total. http://www.madd.org/stats/1298
 
if i'm not mistaken

i don't think you can fight it if you refuse a breath test.

but what you can do is go with your family to the DA's office & explain your situation, be apologetic & ask for advice.

let him know that you panicked & was not sure of the implications of refusing a breathlyzer ..

there are programs out there that will expunge your record ( cause its the record that will hold you back from med school )

provided you go to court, pay fines, get a liscence suspension, & take a few drunk driving rehabiliation classes.


research into that.

but before you do anything........consult an attorney!



best of luck

( btw as a side note - nobody should refuse the test no matter how drunk you are )
 
shivasHeroLike said:
( btw as a side note - nobody should refuse the test no matter how drunk you are )
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If you refuse all of the field sobriety tests and the breathalyzer, if I'm not mistaken, they can take your license away but can only charge you with refusal, not DUI. I don't know if that looks any better (lol...), but I do know of people who have refused everything and avoided a DUI.
 
Generally if you refuse the breathalyzer the police will get a court ordered blood sample. If this didn't happen in your case you may have support for fighiting the DUI since all the evidence is circumstantial and subject to interpretation of the arresting officer. Unless you were falling over drunk the difference between 0.06, 0.08, and 0.15 are impossible to tell by observation alone. The DMV, however, can suspend your license for refusing the test. Regardless of the outcome 1) realize the magnitude of your mistake and luck in not killing someone else or yourself 2) don't ever do it again
 
Thank you everyone for help and suggestions. I went to court this morning and got the case continued to some time in January. My lawyer spoke to the DA a few days back and the DA was being pretty tough about the charges and the sentencing, so my lawyer thought it was in my best interest to get the case continued in order to hopefully get a better DA.

In Virginia, if you get a refussal (refuse to blow at the station) then you can get your license suspended up to 1 year - which I don't care at all about. Reducing the charge would be ideal, but would also not take away from the gravity of the situation.

Thanks again.
 
you're in for a bumpy ride. if the DA is a dick they can really make your life bad. law enforcement gets really pissed about refusal to take the breathalyzer (sp?). honestly you would have had an easier go of it if you'd just taken the test, failed it, and done the diversion program.

you should probably discuss with your lawyer what the best way to carry on is from here. figure out what they have against you. you should be able to see the evidence against you, right? we're you acting belligerent and drunk on the dash cam or at the jail? did you admit to the officer that you'd had several drinks or that you were drunk?

and of course, you have the officer who has given a million sobriety checks and says you were drunk. that may be the biggest hurdle to jump.

i dunno. you gotta figure out what you are willing to risk given what they've got on you. it sounds like it might be time for a talk with your lawyer to figure out if you start sucking up or if you're going to fight it. whichever you choose, you're probably gonna have to do it pretty hard.
 
It is good you refused the breathalyzer. Did you refuse the field sobriety tests as well? With both tests refused and no blood test they cannot prove you were drunk. The law says 0.08 and that means you re innocent until they can prove you are not. The DA is talking tough because he KNOWS this. Is your lawyer familiar with this type of law? If not find one who is. I had a psycho ex-GF who got off of her DUI this way. I always told her if you've been drinking and you get pulled over refuse everything. She did. Lost he liscencse for a year, but they could not convict on the DUI.

Now onto your record . . . medicine does not take this stuff lightly. I know personally. You need to be proactive and when I mean proactive I mean substance abuse treatment. Your school if they still take you may require you enter into a treatment program throughout medical school, so be prepared for that, but to take initiative and find treatment earlier will only help. Make no excuses. Admit you were wrong. Admit you may need help. And do what you are told. The slightest hint of obstinence will get your ass kicked, I promise. Recognize responsibility requires consequences for actions.

Good luck.
 
Trail Boss said:
Tell them you are an alcoholoic, they bend over backwards to help the "learning disadvantaged" or whatever, you just have a disease thats all. GO to rehab if you cant shuck the charges, but your a smart kid (not that smart if you were dding, or getting caught) but you can get oof it. If not, well you deserve whatyou get. Drunk driving kills. Dumba**.
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Yeah, youre right. I know ive never made a bad decision when i was drunk. Save the self-righteous b.s. for another thread. To the op, id go to a lawyer and pick his/her brain and then go from there. I wouldnt expect much else from this forum but a bunch of judgmental people doing exactly what they do.
Also, a dui may not directly result in a revoked acceptance. Many schools have some learning program that theyll make you complete, but Im not to familiar with the specifics. Have one of your parents or friends call anonymously and see what they say you should do and what the consequences will be. I think youll find it will vary depending on the school. Basically, dont get ahead of yourself. Get all the info before you start freaking out. you wont be the first physician who got a dui. Also, dont start playing the "my life is ruined" song, its just not true.
 
jdh71 said:
Now onto your record . . . medicine does not take this stuff lightly. I know personally. You need to be proactive and when I mean proactive I mean substance abuse treatment. Your school if they still take you may require you enter into a treatment program throughout medical school, so be prepared for that, but to take initiative and find treatment earlier will only help. Make no excuses. Admit you were wrong. Admit you may need help. And do what you are told. The slightest hint of obstinence will get your ass kicked, I promise. Recognize responsibility requires consequences for actions.

Good luck.
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I'll ditto the "get a good lawyer" comments. As an undergrad I knew several people with DUIs (it was New Orleans, what can you do?) who beat the charges after refusing to blow. Unfortunately, it usually came down to discussions between the DA and defense attorney, which sounds like may be rough for you.

What I want to know is this: why is everyone so convinced this guy needs substance abuse treatment (and I'm not even going to comment on the 'pray a lot' comments I've seen here)? He had a long night out, probably had one too many beers before he went home. Big s*it. Like everyone on here has never done that before . . .

It annoys me to know end when someone like this is made to sound equivalent to the career alcoholic who kills the soccer team in the mini-van. He doesn't need counceling and he doesn't have a disease, he needs to f*cking grow up and quit doing stupid s*it! (I'm not really chastising you dude, I needed about 14 people to tell me the same thing when I was 22yo).

And no, I don't want to hear from all the people who have never had a drink in their lives, I've never trusted you people and I'm not sure you make good doctors.

And the first MS1 who starts quoting the DSM-IV to me is going to get b*tch-slapped, so don't even think about it.

I wish you all the best, and I really hope you beat the charges. Sucks that you got busted for something most people are guilty of at one point or another. Glad you didn't get hurt, and hope you don't have any career problems.
 
Tired said:
What I want to know is this: why is everyone so convinced this guy needs substance abuse treatment (and I'm not even going to comment on the 'pray a lot' comments I've seen here)? He had a long night out, probably had one too many beers before he went home. Big s*it. Like everyone on here has never done that before . . .

It annoys me to know end when someone like this is made to sound equivalent to the career alcoholic who kills the soccer team in the mini-van. He doesn't need counceling and he doesn't have a disease, he needs to f*cking grow up and quit doing stupid s*it! (I'm not really chastising you dude, I needed about 14 people to tell me the same thing when I was 22yo).
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He may not need substance abuse treatment. That point will be completely irrelevant as far as the school is concerned which has a moral an ethical responsibility to graduate safe docs. Therefore, since he will probably have to do it anyway, it is very proactive and resposible to look into if he relly does have a problem by seeking treatment himself. The good news is if he has a problem he can begin his road to recovery before he plows into the minivan with the soccer team. Driving under the influence is not cool - even if we have all done it - it was irresponsible and poor judgement when we drove impaired and it was when he did to. I want my doctor exercising the best possible judgement, driving drunk is a sign or immaturity and nonbecoming a doctor.

And no, I don't want to hear from all the people who have never had a drink in their lives, I've never trusted you people and I'm not sure you make good doctors.
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I'm a drug addict and alcholic. Sober three years. I've probably forgotten more about drugs than I hope anyone every find out on their own. You walk on the dark side long enough, and you shouldn't be surprised at what demons you find there.

And the first MS1 who starts quoting the DSM-IV to me is going to get b*tch-slapped, so don't even think about it.
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Continued use in spite of severe health or social consequences . . . that's dependence and that's a problem. Only he can decide if that is the case . . .
 
Tired said:
...

What I want to know is this: why is everyone so convinced this guy needs substance abuse treatment (and I'm not even going to comment on the 'pray a lot' comments I've seen here)? He had a long night out, probably had one too many beers before he went home. Big s*it. Like everyone on here has never done that before . . .

It annoys me to know end when someone like this is made to sound equivalent to the career alcoholic who kills the soccer team in the mini-van. He doesn't need counceling and he doesn't have a disease, he needs to f*cking grow up and quit doing stupid s*it! (I'm not really chastising you dude, I needed about 14 people to tell me the same thing when I was 22yo).

And no, I don't want to hear from all the people who have never had a drink in their lives, I've never trusted you people and I'm not sure you make good doctors.

And the first MS1 who starts quoting the DSM-IV to me is going to get b*tch-slapped, so don't even think about it.

I wish you all the best, and I really hope you beat the charges. Sucks that you got busted for something most people are guilty of at one point or another. Glad you didn't get hurt, and hope you don't have any career problems.
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As far as anyone can tell you know no more or less about the original poster than the rest of us. He may have a drinking problem or he may not. It really would be a bit of a leap to assume that he doesn't. We don't have enough information (nor should we). It's really his business. He just came here to get advice.

Whether he actually needs the counseling or not personally really isn't the question. He wants to know what to do to help his career options. The counseling just shows that he is addressing the perceived issue (whether he really is or not is ultimately his personal decision).

As for the rest of your flame-baiting message, "Tired," I sincerely hope that you or someone you care about isn't killed or injured by a drunk person like the several hundred thousand Americans this happens to every single year. You make this sound like a joke ... a little fun that everyone is entitled to have. Unfortunately, the consequences of such fun are not something most people are willing to tolerate and hence the tough enforcement.

Here are a few factoids about this kind of "fun" that you seem to be totally ignoring:

* Alcohol related crashes kills someone in the U.S. every 22 minutes.
* According to the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, there are 105,000 alcohol related deaths annually due to drunken drivers and alcohol related injuries and diseases. AFA journal - 6/90
* Alcohol related accidents are the leading cause of deaths among young people. Dallas Times - Sat., 6/9/90
* The damage caused by alcohol impaired drivers is the same as if a Boeing 747 with over 500 passengers crashed every eight days killing everyone.
Drunk drivers are responsible for 1/2 of highway fatal injuries.
65 people each day die on our highways due to alcohol. California Capitol Report - 11/89
In 1988, 25,000 Americans were killed in auto accidents involving alcohol. Over one half million were injured. AFA journal - 1/90
One half of all traffic accidents are alcohol related. U.S.A. Today - 1/24/90

An estimated 23,200 murdered in U.S. last year Newsweek - 3/25/91
Of all murders, alcohol was involved in at least 34% of cases.
Rape - More than 1/2 of rapists had been drinking.
Child abuse - mothers convicted are 3 times more likely to be alcoholics - fathers 10 times more likely.
Suicide - Up to 36% of victims were drinking just before. Prodigy Services Co. - 3/3/92
Heavy drinking is involved in 60% of violent crimes, 30% of suicides, and 80% of fire and drowning accidents.
The suicide rate of alcoholics is 30 times that of the general population. AFA journal - 1/90

More than half of all confirmed abuse reports and 75% of child deaths involve drug or alcohol abuse on the part of the parents. Time - 1/27/92
The use of alcohol cost $15 billion (1983) for health care and treatment.
The economic cost of alcohol abuse is projected to be $150 billion in 1995. Alcohol & Health - U.S. dept. of H.H.S. 1/90

2.9% of 1,000 live births have fetal alcohol syndrome.
Alcohol & Health - U.S. Dept. of H.H.S. - 1/90
It is costing one half billion dollars per year to treat F.A.S. and F.A.E.

One baby with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome will cost $405,000 in direct special services from birth to 65 years.

********

Getting drunk creates many life-impacting and expensive problems that most people aren't willing to accept just because it's fun.

Also DUI doesn't end when we "grow up." Here is but one piece of information that shows that "growing up" does not prevent drunk driving ... just because someone is 80 years old doesn't mean they won't be driving drunk.

Table 4: Demographics of Drunk Drivers as compared to Michigan Population
Category Michigan Population (%)* Drunk Driving Sample (%)
Gender
Male 51.4 85.7
Female 48.6 14.3
Age
0-20 8.4 14.3
21-30 21.9 32.1
31-40 23.3 32.1
41-50 17.8 12.5
51-60 11.2 3.6
61-70 9.3 3.6
71-80 8 1.8

*******

While I applaud your eagerness to defend the original poster from judgmental criticism, I suggest that you at least make your defense in a way that doesn't trivialize the enormous "not fun" consequences of getting drunk or driving drunk. I can understand that you probably don't care if someone drives drunk, but it would not be correct pretend that medical school administrators and others making decisions about a medical student's career options are as unconcerned as you are.
 
jdh71 said:
He may not need substance abuse treatment. That point will be completely irrelevant as far as the school is concerned which has a moral an ethical responsibility to graduate safe docs. Therefore, since he will probably have to do it anyway, it is very proactive and resposible to look into if he relly does have a problem by seeking treatment himself. The good news is if he has a problem he can begin his road to recovery before he plows into the minivan with the soccer team. Driving under the influence is not cool - even if we have all done it - it was irresponsible and poor judgement when we drove impaired and it was when he did to. I want my doctor exercising the best possible judgement, driving drunk is a sign or immaturity and nonbecoming a doctor.
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I see your point, and you're quite right. Proactively doing something they will force you to do only makes you look better. From that perspective, I couldn't agree with you more.

jdh71 said:
I'm a drug addict and alcholic. Sober three years. I've probably forgotten more about drugs than I hope anyone every find out on their own. You walk on the dark side long enough, and you shouldn't be surprised at what demons you find there.
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I've read your past posts, and respect your experience enormously on this subject. I stand by my argument, however, that youthful indiscretion does not a addict make, nor does it necessarily lead to addiction.


Conversely, counseling in the absence of true addiction does nothing except put a socially-acceptable veneer over what are essentially poor choices and immature behavior. (ie - Mel Gibson, Linsey Lohan, etc)

jdh71 said:
Continued use in spite of severe health or social consequences . . . that's dependence and that's a problem. Only he can decide if that is the case . . .
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Gah! Abuse is manifested by "continued use in spite of severe health and social consequences . . ." and all the other diagnostic elements incorporate the world 'recurrent'. Dependence is characterized by withdrawl, tolerance, substantial time spent obtaining substances, etc.

<*smack*>

(Just playing, don't take me too serious)
 
Tired said:
I've read your past posts, and respect your experience enormously on this subject. I stand by my argument, however, that youthful indiscretion does not a addict make, nor does it necessarily lead to addiction.
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You are right, not everyone who "ties one on" is an alcoholic. In fact the best way to make this point is through a drug and alcohol program that send you away with their blessing as a NONalcoholic. In my experience, addiction will eventually bite you in the ass if you continue certain types of behaviors - happens sooner to others and some later. IMHO, it is the rare bird that can "occasionally" get jacked up without having to deal with the monkey - the one of your back with a death-grip on your throat.

Conversely, counseling in the absence of true addiction does nothing except put a socially-acceptable veneer over what are essentially poor choices and immature behavior. (ie - Mel Gibson, Linsey Lohan, etc)
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Perhaps. I seems to have become trendy to seek treatment for drugs and alcohol, but the truth be told, addicts active in their disease do really, really, really stupid stuff. Based on this humble addicts opinion of both Gibson and Lohan - they probably do need whatever treatment they can find. I lost my cynical side when it comes to bad behavior and drugs, maybe I should go find it . . .


Gah! Abuse is manifested by "continued use in spite of severe health and social consequences . . ." and all the other diagnostic elements incorporate the world 'recurrent'. Dependence is characterized by withdrawl, tolerance, substantial time spent obtaining substances, etc.

<*smack*>

(Just playing, don't take me too serious)
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Touche'
 
OncoCaP said:
As for the rest of your flame-baiting message, "Tired," I sincerely hope that you or someone you care about isn't killed or injured by a drunk person like the several hundred thousand Americans this happens to every single year. You make this sound like a joke ... a little fun that everyone is entitled to have. Unfortunately, the consequences of such fun are not something most people are willing to tolerate and hence the tough enforcement.

While I applaud your eagerness to defend the original poster from judgmental criticism, I suggest that you at least make your defense in a way that doesn't trivialize the enormous "not fun" consequences of getting drunk or driving drunk. I can understand that you probably don't care if someone drives drunk, but it would not be correct pretend that medical school administrators and others making decisions about a medical student's career options are as unconcerned as you are.
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Your right, drunk driving is a serious problem. If you can manage to hold off on the sanctimony for more than a minute and re-read my post, you will notice that I told him to (let me quote here) "f*cking grow up and quit doing stupid s*it."

The point of my post, if you had bothered to pay attention to it, was that true addiction and poor choices are substantially different things. Yes, I have no idea if he truly has a drinking problem. But someone who is in trouble for drinking for the first time in his life, has been accepted to medical school, and is trying to make his actions right, seems (in my mind) less likely to be a true alcoholic in need of formal substance abuse treatment. He's a young guys who screwed up.

It is sad that someone would post this embarrassing story, ask for some friendly advice, and have to be subjected to santimonious statistics and proncouncements about what "could have happened." Isn't it obvious that he knows what could have happened? Isn't it obvious that he feels really bad about this? He will be enduring countless lectures exactly like the one you just delivered for years to come. And they will be delivered by his faculty, parents, and other people who actually matter in his lifeHe didn't need another one from you, a stranger he doesn't even know.

I offered him as much support as a stranger can. I feel bad for him, and I hope this (presumably) one bad choice doesn't ruin his life.

You, on the other hand, obviously saw this young kid's mistake as the chance to preach. But you know what? I'm finishing med school, I know the stats, and the fact that you can google "drunk driving accident statistics" doesn't impress anyone but yourself. Spare this kid your righteousness, it's the last thing he needs right now.

I'm not flame-baiting, I'm telling you that you are being an ass. You want to contribute something helpful? Get off the soapbox and be a friend.
 
Tired said:
Your right, drunk driving is a serious problem. If you can manage to hold off on the sanctimony for more than a minute and re-read my post, you will notice that I told him to (let me quote here) "f*cking grow up and quit doing stupid s*it."

The point of my post, if you had bothered to pay attention to it, was that true addiction and poor choices are substantially different things. Yes, I have no idea if he truly has a drinking problem. But someone who is in trouble for drinking for the first time in his life, has been accepted to medical school, and is trying to make his actions right, seems (in my mind) less likely to be a true alcoholic in need of formal substance abuse treatment. He's a young guys who screwed up.

It is sad that someone would post this embarrassing story, ask for some friendly advice, and have to be subjected to santimonious statistics and proncouncements about what "could have happened." Isn't it obvious that he knows what could have happened? Isn't it obvious that he feels really bad about this? He will be enduring countless lectures exactly like the one you just delivered for years to come. And they will be delivered by his faculty, parents, and other people who actually matter in his lifeHe didn't need another one from you, a stranger he doesn't even know.

I offered him as much support as a stranger can. I feel bad for him, and I hope this (presumably) one bad choice doesn't ruin his life.

You, on the other hand, obviously saw this young kid's mistake as the chance to preach. But you know what? I'm finishing med school, I know the stats, and the fact that you can google "drunk driving accident statistics" doesn't impress anyone but yourself. Spare this kid your righteousness, it's the last thing he needs right now.

I'm not flame-baiting, I'm telling you that you are being an ass. You want to contribute something helpful? Get off the soapbox and be a friend.
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Tired: You lost your temper and ranted in your message. Go back and read it. It is contradictory, biased, and inaccurate.

As far as my post goes, the stats aren't there to impress you (or to hurt the OP's feelings). The stats are there to point out the 500 lb gorrilla in the room that you pretended isn't there. I don't care if you're an MSIV or an attending. It doesn't change your message content. The fact that the stats are readily known to everyone doesn't change them or reduce their significance or imply that you properly considered them in your rant. They don't have to be impressive to you to be important.

As an example of contradiction, on the one hand you essentially call the OP dumb (suggesting youthful indiscretion) and then you try to white-wash the statement to the OP that you are really not trying to give him a hard time. No one is fooled by your fence-riding. I'm not saying you're stupid (and I doubt the original poster is stupid either). What I am saying is that your post is misleading.

As far as the "preaching" goes, if saying "drunk driving is bad" sounds "preachy" to you, realize it's against the law. It's like having sex with a patient. Maybe the doctor and the patient like it in some situations and get away with it in most cases, but it's a really bad idea. One big difference, of course, is that people usually don't die in sex like they too often do in DUI.

If promotion of obeying a DUI law that saves lives is hurtful in your opinion, then so be it. If you had been at as many funerals of drunk driving victims as I have you wouldn't be trying to defend this junk. Maybe you've gone to medical school, but you obviously can't control your temper or biases.

Just because you and thousands of people had a great time, drove drunk, and got away with it doesn't mean that it's a trivial thing (that you hope the OP gets no consequences for his actions). The priest who had sex with Mark Foley said that Mark liked it and the priest did too. Even though it was apparently fun at the time, it's still wrong and harmful. Call me preachy for complaining about child abuse too (even the first time). Even if the child suffers in no obvious way, it's still wrong in most people's opinion and against the law -- just like the "first" DUI.

In fact, why don't you call me preachy for saying that doctors who get high before they go into surgery are wrong. I'll gladly be the punch line of your preachy accusations. I'll gladly be an jerk if it saves lives, prevents child molestation, and helps reduce fetal alcohol syndrome. There are times when being nice isn't the appropriate response. Go ahead, call me a preacher if it makes you feel morally superior to me. It really doesn't bother me.

I'm not sure it's appropriate to "just be a friend" when it comes to someone trivializing a "first DUI experience" by suggesting that everyone's doing it, so it must be ok (and then contradicting yourself by saying that you don't want to hear from those who have never had a drink ... complaining that they won't be good doctors). I'll gladly be a friend about other things that don't harm or kill people.
 
OncoCaP said:
Tired: You lost your temper and ranted in your message. Go back and read it. It is contradictory, biased, and inaccurate.

As far as my post goes, the stats aren't there to impress you (or to hurt the OP's feelings). The stats are there to point out the 500 lb gorrilla in the room that you pretended isn't there. I don't care if you're an MSIV or an attending. It doesn't change your message content. The fact that the stats are readily known to everyone doesn't change them or reduce their significance or imply that you properly considered them in your rant. They don't have to be impressive to you to be important.

As an example of contradiction, on the one hand you essentially call the OP dumb (suggesting youthful indiscretion) and then you try to white-wash the statement to the OP that you are really not trying to give him a hard time. No one is fooled by your fence-riding. I'm not saying you're stupid (and I doubt the original poster is stupid either). What I am saying is that your post is misleading.

As far as the "preaching" goes, if saying "drunk driving is bad" sounds "preachy" to you, realize it's against the law. It's like having sex with a patient. Maybe the doctor and the patient like it in some situations and get away with it in most cases, but it's a really bad idea. One big difference, of course, is that people usually don't die in sex like they too often do in DUI.

If promotion of obeying a DUI law that saves lives is hurtful in your opinion, then so be it. If you had been at as many funerals of drunk driving victims as I have you wouldn't be trying to defend this junk. Maybe you've gone to medical school, but you obviously can't control your temper or biases. Just because you and thousands of people drove drunk and got away with it doesn't mean that it's a trivial thing. The priest who had sex with Mark Foley said that Mark liked it and the priest did too. It's still wrong in my book. Call me preachy for complaining about child abuse too. In fact, why don't you call me preachy for saying that doctors who get high before they go into surgery are wrong. I'll gladly be the punch line of your preachy accusations. I'll gladly be an jerk if it saves lives, prevents child molestation, and helps reduce fetal alcohol syndrome. Go ahead, call me a preacher if it makes you feel morally superior to me.
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Look, I appologise. I thought I was talking to someone in the medical field right now, but it is apparent from your last post that you are some sort of pre-med sitting in your honors dorm, munching cheetos and wondering where your roommate is tonight.

This is why I'm so frustrated with you: This is a medical forum, intended for people who are, or will be, in the medical field. Medicine is about support, redemption, and picking people up after they make stupid mistakes. There is a very important place in this world for "preachers" but it is not as physicians or nurses.

Medical professionals need to accept their patients' errors and try to fix them. It is not our place to "preach" to our patients, because that only drives them away and discourages them from seeking our help.

People with attitudes like yours do not belong in medicine, because you do not believe in second chances. By your rationale, we should be kicking our obese, smoking, over-populating, drug-using patients constantly. Guess what? It doesn't work. By your rationale, our other poster here should never have gone to med school, because it isn't "safe" for an ex-addict to do this kind of work. Nonsense.

The point is that people can change, and while we need to point out our patients' mistakes, we don't need to beat them over the head with them. We need to be a hand out, offering support and encouragement. You clearly lack the necessary qualities, and would rather preach. Good for you. Go get a communcations degree and work for MADD.

And if you're really going to pursue medicine, pull your head out the sand and learn to show a little compassion. If you're not on the side of people who come to you for help, you'd do better as a prosecutor than a physician.
 
Tired said:
Look, I appologise. I thought I was talking to someone in the medical field right now, but it is apparent from your last post that you are some sort of pre-med sitting in your honors dorm, munching cheetos and wondering where your roommate is tonight.

This is why I'm so frustrated with you: This is a medical forum, intended for people who are, or will be, in the medical field. Medicine is about support, redemption, and picking people up after they make stupid mistakes. There is a very important place in this world for "preachers" but it is not as physicians or nurses.
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"apparent from your last post that you are some sort of pre-med sitting in your honors dorm, munching cheetos and wondering where your roommate is tonight" ===> You are one rude & arrogant jerk without a clue ... just so you know. By your own definition, you're completely unqualified to practice medicine (since you brought it up). Also, seeing how you keep saying these rude, contradictory, and incoherent statements, suggest that you might be completely wasted right now.

We both know that there are physicians who have a reputation for being unkind, so let's drop the pretend that physicians talk like Clifford the Big Red Dog & friends on PBS. We both know what they really talk like when they are not in front of a patient ... and it's often not rated G or even PG-13. I'm not suggesting that's a good thing or that I condone that behavior, but get your own head out of the sand about what medicine is like before you ask me to extract mine.

I'm all for support, redemption, and picking people up. What I liked about the OP's message is that he just explained the situation and asked for advice. I admire a person who can stand up for their mistakes and works to resolve them, no matter how difficult (or embarrasing). I agree that people can change. I'm also not suggesting that I'm a perfect person either. I've been admitted to medical school with my own human faults as well.

Tired said:
Medical professionals need to accept their patients' errors and try to fix them. It is not our place to "preach" to our patients, because that only drives them away and discourages them from seeking our help.

People with attitudes like yours do not belong in medicine, because you do not believe in second chances. By your rationale, we should be kicking our obese, smoking, over-populating, drug-using patients constantly. Guess what? It doesn't work. By your rationale, our other poster here should never have gone to med school, because it isn't "safe" for an ex-addict to do this kind of work. Nonsense.

The point is that people can change, and while we need to point out our patients' mistakes, we don't need to beat them over the head with them. We need to be a hand out, offering support and encouragement. You clearly lack the necessary qualities, and would rather preach. Good for you. Go get a communcations degree and work for MADD.

And if you're really going to pursue medicine, pull your head out the sand and learn to show a little compassion. If you're not on the side of people who come to you for help, you'd do better as a prosecutor than a physician.
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I'm trying really hard to be nice to you. I really am. It makes it hard when you try to be funny making up stuff about an honors dorm and cheetos (that compassion is coming through loud and clear!), accuse me of preaching and then start preaching yourself ("People with attitudes like yours do not belong in medicine") and make absurd statements like "Medical professionals need to accept their patients' errors and try to fix them."

Again, maybe you're totally drunk right now and wanting compassion as you fumble around, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering to reply to you. However, for as little as I know about you, you might just mouth off like this when you're sober. Medical professionals are not there to "fix" their patients nor do they necessarily accept all of their patients errors. Yes, they try to take beneficial actions to improve the patient's health. Yes, medical professionals avoid making judgmental statements in front of their patients. However, it's up to the patient to ask for help, and the physician may or may not be able to provide the help, depending on what's required (if the patient doesn't want to give up smoking, it's not up to the physician to "fix" the patient anyway).

I'm all for showing compassion. I believe one can be compassionate and still acknowledge that a behavior is harmful. I'm not going to tell my patient, "You know, I accept your drunk driving ... it's ok with me .. I hope your DUI conviction is overturned since you are entitled to one DUI with no penalty. It's OK, you made a mistake." Instead, ...

(http://kobiljak.msu.edu/CAI/OST517/PhysicianGuide.html)

When is screening for alcohol problems appropriate?
as part of a routine health examination
before prescribing a medication that interacts with alcohol
in response to presenting problems that may be alcohol-related {DUI seems to fall here}

I might try something like this:
I...Ask about alcohol use.
II..Assess for alcohol-related problems.
III.Advise appropriate action (i.e., set a drinking goal, abstain, or obtain alcohol treatment).
IV.Monitor patient progress.

Yes, I agree that people can change. At the same time, it's not my place to decide what the penalty for DUI is or will be. Your suggestion that you hope he gets off is disturbing. Would you compassionately tell a patient who just unsuccessfully tried killed his wife but the shots missed that you hope he gets off too -- we all get a little angry once in a while and no one was hurt? After all, it's only the first time you tried to shoot your wife.... No, I didn't think so.

Just because I'm interested in medicine doesn't mean that I need to suspend reality. If the OP was my patient, I would help him in any way that would be appropriate, but I would not suggest that there shouldn't be any consequences ... even for a first DUI.
 
To the OP: I'm not your mom so I'm not going to preach at you about the evils of DUI. It sounds like you're already aware of that anyway, and I'd be lying (as would a lot of people on here) if I said I've never in my life been behind the wheel when I probably would have blown more than .08. If you do have a problem with alcohol, and this a symptom of that rather than an isolated mistake, I would take this as an opportunity to seek help regardless of the whole med school issue. If, however, this was just a dumb move on your part, you're going to need some serious legal advice, fast. The fact is, I don't know what all the implications of this will be for med school now or down the line, and most other people on this forum don't either. The take-home message seems to be get a good lawyer--not whoever the state assigns you to. If you don't get convicted--if you are able to do a diversion program instead, or get the charge down to a traffic violation of some kind--you have nothing to report to your school. If I were you, I'd get the best lawyer I could afford and fight a conviction for anything other than a moving violation as hard as I could, as well as get their advice on how to handle this with your school. Before you do anything else or take anyone else's advice--friends, family, or posters on this forum--I would do that.

On a side note, I had to take a traffic safety class last night in lieu of a ticket, like most of the people there it was for a minor moving violation. One guy at the class, however, apparently was speeding through a residential neighborhood, lost control of his vehicle and crashed his car into the side of a house; fortunately no one was injured (the officer who arrested him was teaching the class and used him as an example). You'd think for something like that he'd have his license taken away and be facing some serious charges; instead, he's taking a $100 class with a bunch of speeders and people who failed to signal on a turn and won't even have a point on his license. I'm guessing he had to fight his charge down, so you never know until you try. I hope you've learned your lesson (it sounds like you have), and good luck with getting this figured out.
 
SteveUTexas said:
False, alcohol related traffic fatalities are less than 1/2 the number that you quoted and the number is generally falling every year. Last year 16885 traffic deaths were related to alcohol out of 43443 total. http://www.madd.org/stats/1298
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Yup, I stand corrected: 16885 alcohol-related traffic deaths per year. Still a very large number of deaths that potentially could have been prevented. That's 21 times the number of U.S. soldiers that were killed in Iraq over the last year (~804).

Other interesting facts from the MADD web site:
The majority of those who reported alcohol-related DUI in the 12 months prior to a national survey are *not* alcohol dependent or alcohol abusers.

About three in every ten Americans will be involved in an alcohol-related crash at some time in their lives. (NHTSA, 2001) -- If my math is right (based on 300 million Americans) that's 90 million Americans affected just from alcohol-related auto crashes alone.

Alcohol is closely linked with violence. About 40 percent of all crimes (violent and non-violent) are committed under the influence of alcohol. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1998). Among domestic violence 75% is alcohol-related.
 
OncoCaP said:
Again, maybe you're totally drunk right now and wanting compassion as you fumble around, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering to reply to you. However, for as little as I know about you, you might just mouth off like this when you're sober.
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I meant what I said, despite your terribly desperate reply. In the event you ever accidently make it to medical school, try to learn to identify with your patients. It will make you a better physician.
 
Tired said:
I meant what I said, despite your terribly desperate reply. In the event you ever accidently make it to medical school, try to learn to identify with your patients. It will make you a better physician.
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Feel free to stop preaching and making snide remarks whenever you're ready, Tired. I guess by your logic, I'm supposed to assume that you make baseless assumptions, accusations, and snide remarks about your patients as well? You went on a rant about a sensitive topic, and that tends to make people angry. Don't act all surprised. First you blast me for preaching and then you cue up your own sermon about what makes a "better doctor" because you don't have toe to stand on when it comes to the original topic.

Just because I argue against your drunken logic and state the obvious I'm all of sudden not identifying with the "patient." No one on this thread is anyone else's patient. FYI: We're not supposed to be treating medical conditions here. You can leave your doctor gig at home and just talk about the issues informally on this forum, like among friends as you suggest, hard as you may find it to be to leave your job at work.

Yes, identifying with the patient is a good thing; however, it's not necessary to agree with what every patient did and to hope that the patient "gets off" on any first offenses the patient committed as you suggest. One can be an advocate for the patient without acting like the only drunks who kill someone are old ones ones who drive drunk on a regular basis and thus a first DUI is not worth complaining about on an informal forum like this.

I'm not going claim that you are an incompentent medical student, although you have provided me with a long list of statements and contradictions that would make me question your compentence as member of the public, let alone as a physician. I'll hope for the best and just consider that you're an MS4 who despite a lot of education just can't communicate well and hope that if there is anything that prevents you from becoming an excellent physician that this obstacle would be removed. Maybe you have other qualities like a big heart that make up for your inability at times (hopefully rare) to control your temper, communicate coherently, and without personal attacks with people who don't agree with you.
 
Wow, didn't realize a bump would cause this much of a stir. I want to thank everyone for their advice as anything is helpful at this point.

Tired, thank you for defending me against people basically just sh*ting on me for my DUI. But, I am bigger than that and to be honest I appreciate anyone and everyones 2 cents, that is why I posted on the forum. If 100 people yell at me for what I did and 1 person gives me advice then I take it all in stride.

OncoCap... I understand that you have had personal experiences with DUI's and the consequences they have brought to you and the people you know. I am very sorry for that. I would like you to know along with everyone else that reads this thread that I realize what I did was stupid and immature, and seriously... if you're anything like me... medicine is your life.... and when you look forward in life, I can't picture a life without it.

It is tough to see everyone "preaching" to me, because I really have hit rock bottom with this... if I do get convicted, and I get my acceptance resinded.... well then there's really nothing left in my life... I mentioned earlier i'm not the brightest crayon in the box i'm a reapplier in that you can't really fathom what medical school means to me.... and i'm saying this only so that everyone knows how much I KNOW i screwed up.... basically screwing up my life.

Now I realize drunk driving carries consequences, but comparing it to child abuse? I did not hurt anybody... granted I could have and thankfully I didn't.... When an adult abuses a child... that is physically harming someone else, You can't really abuse a child without harming someone.... you can drive drunk without harming someone (and I am not condoning my actions I am just saying... comparing me to a child abuser is pretty rough)

Another issue that I feel I should address that keeps resurfacing.... I am not an alcoholic (and I know saying that is somewhat meaningless)... but look at it this way I may drink once a month if that and only when I go out and other people are drinking... If I go to dinner at a restaurant I don't drink wine (don't like it) I don't order alcohol... I think it ruins the taste of food. When I drink, its for fun with friends....

That night was a dumb mistake... For god sakes... it was the day I found out I got into medical school... I'm grateful for everyone's best wishes and advice... my court date is in the beginning of January I'll be sure to keep you guys updated....

Oh, I've also hired the top 2 lawyers in the area and asked them to work together seeing as it wouldnt hurt me.... Some more background as to what happened.... I was not falling over myself or anything like that. I was very nice with the officer and I was perfectly fine in jail. I did take the field sobriety tests and failed them marginally... in that he said do the alphabet from b to n and I went to p (said lmnop too quickly..) I apologized after that Then he asked me to take 9 steps and turn around, I took 10.... that was the extent to which I failed the field sobriety checks... i then was asked to blow into a breathalizer on the street (Which i did not know at the time I did not have to do) so I did that and blew pretty high (which is the reason that working out a deal with the DA and arresting officer is difficult). At the station I did not blow into the main breathalyzer device, which they make you do because the field breathalyzer is not admissable in court due to its inaccurateness.

Thank you again for everyones help, unfortuantely there isn't much on this topic on SDN that you can search, hopefully this may help people in the future.
 
Awesome321123 said:
Wow, didn't realize a bump would cause this much of a stir. I want to thank everyone for their advice as anything is helpful at this point.

Tired, thank you for defending me against people basically just sh*ting on me for my DUI. But, I am bigger than that and to be honest I appreciate anyone and everyones 2 cents, that is why I posted on the forum. If 100 people yell at me for what I did and 1 person gives me advice then I take it all in stride.

OncoCap... I understand that you have had personal experiences with DUI's and the consequences they have brought to you and the people you know. I am very sorry for that. I would like you to know along with everyone else that reads this thread that I realize what I did was stupid and immature, and seriously... if you're anything like me... medicine is your life.... and when you look forward in life, I can't picture a life without it.

It is tough to see everyone "preaching" to me, because I really have hit rock bottom with this... if I do get convicted, and I get my acceptance resinded.... well then there's really nothing left in my life... I mentioned earlier i'm not the brightest crayon in the box i'm a reapplier in that you can't really fathom what medical school means to me.... and i'm saying this only so that everyone knows how much I KNOW i screwed up.... basically screwing up my life.

Now I realize drunk driving carries consequences, but comparing it to child abuse? I did not hurt anybody... granted I could have and thankfully I didn't.... When an adult abuses a child... that is physically harming someone else, You can't really abuse a child without harming someone.... you can drive drunk without harming someone (and I am not condoning my actions I am just saying... comparing me to a child abuser is pretty rough)

Another issue that I feel I should address that keeps resurfacing.... I am not an alcoholic (and I know saying that is somewhat meaningless)... but look at it this way I may drink once a month if that and only when I go out and other people are drinking... If I go to dinner at a restaurant I don't drink wine (don't like it) I don't order alcohol... I think it ruins the taste of food. When I drink, its for fun with friends....

That night was a dumb mistake... For god sakes... it was the day I found out I got into medical school... I'm grateful for everyone's best wishes and advice... my court date is in the beginning of January I'll be sure to keep you guys updated....

Oh, I've also hired the top 2 lawyers in the area and asked them to work together seeing as it wouldnt hurt me.... Some more background as to what happened.... I was not falling over myself or anything like that. I was very nice with the officer and I was perfectly fine in jail. I did take the field sobriety tests and failed them marginally... in that he said do the alphabet from b to n and I went to p (said lmnop too quickly..) I apologized after that Then he asked me to take 9 steps and turn around, I took 10.... that was the extent to which I failed the field sobriety checks... i then was asked to blow into a breathalizer on the street (Which i did not know at the time I did not have to do) so I did that and blew pretty high (which is the reason that working out a deal with the DA and arresting officer is difficult). At the station I did not blow into the main breathalyzer device, which they make you do because the field breathalyzer is not admissable in court due to its inaccurateness.

Thank you again for everyones help, unfortuantely there isn't much on this topic on SDN that you can search, hopefully this may help people in the future.
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Awesome, I know that this is pretty painful, but I wouldn't assume that you will lose your admission. Keep working through the process and it could all work out for you. There are lots of unknowns. Also, I don't have a beef with you at all. I know that you know what you did was wrong and are rather contrite about the whole thing. If anything, I admire you for admitting to the issue and moving forward. That takes some serious fortitude.

My argument was directed at Tired's half-baked trivialization of a first DUI ... making it out like a first sexual experience gone wrong, not you. While I appreciated his running to your defense (and I agree that there is an appropriate argument against some of the remarks made about you on this thread), his reasoning was flawed and misleading, and that was my concern. Whether I'm right about my argument or not, it wasn't directed at you in any case.

Maybe you'll hate me for saying this, but I actually mean this in a positive way: While medicine is your dream, keep in mind that there are no doubt other things you could do for a living that you would enjoy. Something like 1/3 of all physicians in certain fields (it varies a lot) are unhappy with their career. I'm sure they all started out thinking it was their dream and then it turned into a nightmare. Imagine going through all that and then hating your job, but feeling trapped because of the loans, etc.

My point is that medicine isn't always a perfect career and a number of physicians have told me that if they had to do it over again (go into medicine) that they wouldn't do it. Apparently, most physicians are happy with their careers, but it's not possible to predict with 100% certainty that you will like it as much as you think you will. Very unpleasant situations happen in life, and you would no doubt get to see that a lot if you wind up in medicine.

Perhaps you could relate very well to patients in such a situation as a result of your experience. I get the impression that you'll come out of this situation much wiser and you'll be able to prepare yourself for an excellent career whether in medicine or otherwise. I'm not suggesting that we should all go out an drive drunk so we can be wiser and relate to certain patients ... just that now that this has happened, you have the opportunity to make the best of a difficult situation. I think you can do it.
 
OncoCaP said:
Maybe you'll hate me for saying this, but I actually mean this in a positive way: While medicine is your dream, keep in mind that there are no doubt other things you could do for a living that you would enjoy.

My point is that medicine isn't always a perfect career and a number of physicians have told me that if they had to do it over again (go into medicine) that they wouldn't do it.

Perhaps you could relate very well to patients in such a situation as a result of your experience. I get the impression that you'll come out of this situation much wiser and you'll be able to prepare yourself for an excellent career whether in medicine or otherwise. I'm not suggesting that we should all go out an drive drunk so we can be wiser and relate to certain patients ... just that now that this has happened, you have the opportunity to make the best of a difficult situation. I think you can do it.
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Thus Spake Zarathustra!

Seriously my young friend, you might want to get out of your undergraduate institution (or high school, I wonder?) before you begin offering career advice to those who are already in medical school. 🙂

Later, maybe you could do a play for us about how lying is bad!

Thanks for the laughs.
 
Awesome321123 said:
Wow, didn't realize a bump would cause this much of a stir. I want to thank everyone for their advice as anything is helpful at this point.

Thank you again for everyones help, unfortuantely there isn't much on this topic on SDN that you can search, hopefully this may help people in the future.
Click to expand...

Good luck to you, it sounds like you're doing everything you can to put things back together. I'm pulling for you.

Let us know how things turn out.
 
Tired said:
Thus Spake Zarathustra!

Seriously my young friend, you might want to get out of your undergraduate institution (or high school, I wonder?) before you begin offering career advice to those who are already in medical school. 🙂

Later, maybe you could do a play for us about how lying is bad!

Thanks for the laughs.
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You're more of a fumbling idiot than I ever imagined. You may know biochemistry or whatever you needed to know to get to MS4, but you don't have a clue about life outside the textbook, as your complete misjudgment about me shows. The way that you jump to conclusions, I woudn't trust you to diagnose an obvious case of acne. Here are the facts:

(a) I have a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering from a top 5 school in my field (from a long time ago). I probably graduated from high school before you were even born (I'm not sure; you sound extremely immature).

(b) I would bet I'm older than you (38), happily married for 17 years, and have several kids. You're about as far off from describing me as you could possibly be. I haven't lived in a dorm since 1989.

(c) I have had a long and happy career as an engineer and business owner for about 17 years. I have several patents and was making just as much as a physician doing what I did before I decided to make the change. I'm not going into medicine because it's the only thing that I can imagine doing or for the money. I, unlike you, actually think and ask questions before I open my mouth. I know first hand that there are plenty of rewarding jobs out there because unlike you, I actually have experienced them. I know more about working outside of medicine that you'll ever know.
 
OncoCaP said:
(c) I have had a long and happy career as an engineer and business owner for about 17 years. I'm not going into medicine because it's the only thing that I can imagine doing. I know first hand that there are plenty of rewarding jobs out there because unlike you, I actually have experienced them. I know more about working outside of medicine that you'll ever know.
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The let me be the first (of what will undoubtedly be many) to tell you to stick with what you know. Medicine's clearly not for you. By using an individual's tragic circumstances as an opportunity to beat someone over the head with obvious, long-winded speeches. And the fact that you have a PhD and have been a 'business owner' still gives you zero credibility to offer advice on a career in medine.

Of course, that's assuming I even believe you, because I swear you sound a lot like the 22yo kids I've interviewed for med school . . .

Still waiting for that play about lying. Let me know how it goes.
 
Tired said:
The let me be the first (of what will undoubtedly be many) to tell you to stick with what you know. Medicine's clearly not for you. By using an individual's tragic circumstances as an opportunity to beat someone over the head with obvious, long-winded speeches. And the fact that you have a PhD and have been a 'business owner' still gives you zero credibility to offer advice on a career in medine.

Of course, that's assuming I even believe you, because I swear you sound a lot like the 22yo kids I've interviewed for med school . . .

Still waiting for that play about lying. Let me know how it goes.
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Dude, take your own advice and stop giving advice. You're without a doubt the most incoherent person I have ever met in any field, including medicine. The advice you gave about was about 6th in line to tell the guy to get a lawyer (I even mentioned it before you did). You really have nothing to contribute to this thread. I also don't care what you and your drunk driving buddies think any more than I give a flip about what the North American Man/Boy Love Association thinks about my views on child abuse.
 
What you need to do is get a lawyer, and have him file motions for a continuance to delay prosecution after you matriculate. That way you can honestly say that you have never been convicted of a felony. Once you're in, your're in, and it's much harder for them to kick you out. The way the legal system works, a laywer can easily delay the prosecution until august. Also, do not under any circumstance mention this to the medical school you were accepted too. They will kick you're ass out quicker than you know. There was a recent NEJM article discussing predictors of professional misconduct among doctors, and as you might guess, undergrad DUI were one of them. There are 100 people waiting to take your spot. Get a lawyer, and play the game, and don't let them prosecute until after the white coat.
 
fatman41 said:
Once you're in, your're in, and it's much harder for them to kick you out. The way the legal system works, a laywer can easily delay the prosecution until august. Also, do not under any circumstance mention this to the medical school you were accepted too. They will kick you're ass out quicker than you know. There was a recent NEJM article discussing predictors of professional misconduct among doctors, and as you might guess, undergrad DUI were one of them. There are 100 people waiting to take your spot. Get a lawyer, and play the game, and don't let them prosecute until after the white coat.
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(OP, close your eyes and move to the next post- this isn't for you)

What did that NEJM article mention about deception?

Listen, I'll happily offer advice for this situation, because I'm sure it could have been me once or thrice. But I don't understand how you can quote an article from arguably the most well-respected journal of medicine in the WORLD, for the sake of supporting the OP. This article states that the exact predicament the OP has found himself in is indeed a predictor of future misconduct. Then you offer advice that will subvert the mechanisms that normally work to prevent folks like this from entering med school. And by the way, I'm guessing the 100 people waiting to replace the OP don't have DUIs on their record.

Ironic? I think so. Don't be surprised in 20 years when your colleagues incur penalties and license revocations.

I'm of the opinion that advice here should be objective. I don't think anyone can pass judgment based on this one anecdote. Likewise, let's not all start a parade supporting the OP's wishes to become a doctor. We don't know this person. "I'm pulling for you." Why? I understand that medical school admissions, medical school and residency are all very stressful times. But why do so many threads become a vehicle to pat a stranger on the back? If you were the admissions director, and during the interview for medical school this person informed you that one week prior to the interview he had been arrested and charged with a DUI, would you accept him?
 
Bertelman said:
I'm of the opinion that advice here should be objective. I don't think anyone can pass judgment based on this one anecdote. Likewise, let's not all start a parade supporting the OP's wishes to become a doctor. We don't know this person. "I'm pulling for you." Why? I understand that medical school admissions, medical school and residency are all very stressful times. But why do so many threads become a vehicle to pat a stranger on the back? If you were the admissions director, and during the interview for medical school this person informed you that one week prior to the interview he had been arrested and charged with a DUI, would you accept him?
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If you believe that a DUI ought to disqualify you from becoming a doctor, so be it. Personally, I disagree and so do most medical boards across the country.

The reson I'm "starting a parade supporting the OP's wishes to become a doctor" is that I don't think someone's life should be derailed over a single mistake. I acknowledge that none of us can know the details of this guy's life, whether this is his first offence, etc. But assuming we can take him at his word, we know that he has done all the necessary things to get himself into medical school, and is now facing the loss of all that work over a single screwup.

I believe in second chances. If you don't, and would rather his school yank his acceptance and move on to the next applicant, so be it. But I don't see why a medical student should be held to a higher standard than practicing physicians (who are allowed to go through treatment and supervision programs without losing their license).
 
fatman41 said:
What you need to do is get a lawyer, and have him file motions for a continuance to delay prosecution after you matriculate. That way you can honestly say that you have never been convicted of a felony. Once you're in, your're in, and it's much harder for them to kick you out. ...
Click to expand...

This strategy would depend on the med school not checking the DMV records, which I expect them to do when they run the criminal background check. The DUI arrest would almost certainly be on there even if he's not been convicted yet.
 
DMV records differ from criminal records. It will not appear on a criminal background check if you have not been convicted, hence my suggestion to have a continuance filed until after matriculation. Regarding Tired's propaganda, you have to do what you have to do. No doubt this guy has invested 20yrs getting to this point, he needs to do something to protect his investment. I'm not saying the system is correct, but this is what he needs to do to protect himself, much the same way I'm sure you would use the legal system to protect yourself from malpractice if you screwed up a surgery.
 
Tired said:
If you believe that a DUI ought to disqualify you from becoming a doctor, so be it. Personally, I disagree and so do most medical boards across the country.

The reson I'm "starting a parade supporting the OP's wishes to become a doctor" is that I don't think someone's life should be derailed over a single mistake. I acknowledge that none of us can know the details of this guy's life, whether this is his first offence, etc. But assuming we can take him at his word, we know that he has done all the necessary things to get himself into medical school, and is now facing the loss of all that work over a single screwup.

I believe in second chances. If you don't, and would rather his school yank his acceptance and move on to the next applicant, so be it. But I don't see why a medical student should be held to a higher standard than practicing physicians (who are allowed to go through treatment and supervision programs without losing their license).
Click to expand...

I never implied he shouldn't be allowed to be a doctor. That statement makes it sound as they he has some right to become a doctor. My original advice was to obtain counsel, then approach the school with full disclosure and a plan to address his substance use. I'm glad most medical boards across the country back your personal opinion, but he's not confronting medical boards. He's confronting admissions committees.

Again, don't infer that I don't believe in second chances. There seems to be a tone on this thread that you are either for or against the OP, with no gray zones. The OP has a second chance- it's called applying next year. Or- gasp- doing something else with his life! We aren't exactly talking about denying this person the chance to have a career, raise a family, etc. He can still do all those things without being a doctor. Billions do it every day.

I'm not exactly sure what stage of medical school you are in (and I don't care), but let me fill you in- we are held to a higher standard every single day. We show up before the attendings do. We leave after they do. Many of us have better professionalism/ethics skills than they do. And for good reason. We want to limit the number of docs who have to defend themselves to the Medical Board. I just think we shouldn't be hip-hop-horraying a guy into medicine when it is clear that he has a prior incident which will predict future difficulties. If there was a way to screen applicants so that those with behavioral/substance problems did not enter the profession wouldn't you want to do so? Well, there is. That's the admissions commitee's task. How 'bout we let them do their job. Where's the cheerleading for the 100 capable, qualified people who don't have DUIs waiting for his spot? Do we just like this guy because he posted on SDN?

Seriously, tired, your posts are filled with accusations and lines drawn in the sand. Simmer down, understand that we all have a right to disagree. It's not a personal attack on you. That's why these are discussion boards. I'm not saying you have to agree with anyone else here, but you should keep your mind open and allow others their opinions. I get the feeling you missed out on a great career in law. You picked the wrong profession if you are hoping to argue with your colleagues.

Edit: Like others here, my path to med school wasn't direct. I applied several times. I'm very happy with the life I led prior to now, but I would be seriously disappointed if I knew that at some point during that course, someone with a DUI was accepted ahead of me.
 
fatman41 said:
DMV records differ from criminal records. It will not appear on a criminal background check if you have not been convicted, hence my suggestion to have a continuance filed until after matriculation. Regarding Tired's propaganda, you have to do what you have to do. No doubt this guy has invested 20yrs getting to this point, he needs to do something to protect his investment. I'm not saying the system is correct, but this is what he needs to do to protect himself, much the same way I'm sure you would use the legal system to protect yourself from malpractice if you screwed up a surgery.
Click to expand...

As an employer, I've requested criminal background checks on my job applicants. Getting the DMV records was a checkbox on the form that I was issued by the companies that do these checks and was a recommended check by the company that provided those checks if DUI was something that I needed to know about. How the med schools check this stuff is not clear to me, but, for the sound of it, med schools want to know about DUI and a DMV check will quite likely be recommended by whoever provides this service to the school. I'm not sure how they get arrest records that they want, but if they want to know about DUI's they could very likely look at DMV records, especially because they are so easy to check. I get the impression they will do as thorough a check as they can inexpensively and to the extent permitted by law.

Moreover, AAMC specifically recommends looking for pending legal issues:
http://www.aamc.org/members/gsa/cbc_final_report.pdf

13. That the criminal background check involve, as relevant data are accessible and to the extent permitted by law:
• conviction information for all criminal offenses (felonies, misdemeanors) committed as an adult
• all types of adjudications
• all legal processes not yet resolved (e.g., an arrest record for an offense pending court disposition, an unresolved bench warrant, a failure to appear in court).
 
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