CNN AA Poll

Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
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I hope the Supreme Court will realize that those BAMN people screaming outside of their office do not represent the majority opinion of Americans.
 
eh, not going to voice an opinion on this, but it's been documented that conservatives dominate online polling.
 
Originally posted by bw07
eh, not going to voice an opinion on this, but it's been documented that conservatives dominate online polling.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Where?
 
Originally posted by bw07
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030106/pl_nm/tech_elections_dc_3

Personally, while I usually lean left on most things, for AA I'm for an economic based system, rather than race. Even so, I have to dispute the poll being taken as reflective of the whole population. It's not.
Click to expand...

I usually lean left too, but I think it should be based on economics too, not based on race.

And yeah, it's probably not representative. 82% is a pretty large margin though.
 
Not really. They've done studies on this.

When AA is presented as an Affirmative Action AGAINST discrimination or when AA is presented as tiebreaker among equals, most people vote for it.

When AA is presented as special treatment (300 points lower on average on the SAT for black ivy Matriculants), the vast majority, black and white, vote against it.


Most polls that you have seen present AA in the former situation, not in the real, latter situation.
 
I didn't say the poll was completely wrong, but that the numbers are skewed which is true. I suspect that the real number is closer to 60-40 or something. No one who has taken statistics would say this is a random sampling. That's all I'm saying.
 
I'm too lazy to read that right now 🙂 I didn't even read the original article posted. I was just reacting to the 82% that RA posted.
 
I am so sick and tired of some non-URM feeling like the URM are taking thier places in undergraduate admission, and graduate admission. They should be more worried about the non-URM taking their places, remember URM represent only a few percentages in graduate education, the majority are the non-URM. How can we take your places when most universities have like few African American Pre-Med (There are only 4 African American Pre Med at my university!). Most of these votes are non-URM parents and students that feel like if they don't get what they want then others shouldn't... which is plain greed. If there are few minorities in medicine now, imagine if you take away affirmative action. 🙁 This is going to turn many minorities off from going to graduate school. This simply adds to the mentality that many african american feel that whites don't give a crap about blacks and that we are subspecies of inferiors. This adds to the bunch of negativity towards blacks that we see everywhere. Most URM have to get over all the hurdles of life like most people in addition to thier race and socioeconomic hurdles. It is sad that if the non-URM can't have all the advantage then these race becomes a threat. This is making most non-URM happy to know that AA might be abolished. "Let's not increase minorities matriculation by abolishing AA." For a long time, URM have been walked all over and treated like babies. Lets turn the clock 40 years ago when the first words that a black kid see "No color are allow" or "******." Now its more like since you are black, you are inferior in academics and the only things that we can do are entertainment and menial work. Back in high school, a white student once told me when I made straight A's, "******, what do you think you are doing." That made me discouraged for awhile that I stopped trying in school to "act" my role in school and that my own race disown me from academics, and the other races think I should have inferior grades to him because he's white. This isn't the first time that URM are taken advantage off and won't be the last. If there are programs out there that favor URM it will be a threat for non-URM and would want it to be taken away. If AA is taken away then thats no different from Jim Crow that indirectly says "No color allowed." If the government can't gave us reparations for the past then let us have something (AA allows us to get that money indirectly by getting better jobs).

To my URM, this is not a message of discouragement, it is a message of empowerment. This is sending a message that we should work 4 times harder now to be the best. In the end, we will come on stronger. Get the best grades in your classroom, get the best test scores on the MCAT, and show that we can dominate. There are going to be a lot of doubters but love is proving them wrong. We have to fight our own war over here in the states. The time is NOW. The time is now to break the glass ceiling. This recent court case has given me the urge to be the best at whatever cost.
PS--I know the majority of people on this website are non-URM, so you can flame me if you want because I will find your remarks entertaining.
 
I don't understand why you're pushing this us-against-the-world mentality so hard. The only person turning this into a race debate is you. The original poster was only trying to flesh out how the public feels about AA. If anything, this is a thread about the accuracy of AA polls, not AA itself.
 
whenever you discuss AA its only going to lead to race because thats the main reason its is being discussed...because race is included in the equation of AA. I am just surfacing the feelings of many URM.
 
hmmm... well it's not always white vs. black. I myself am asian as I'm sure many of the people on these boards are. I'm personally against AA because it seems that race belongs in the catagory of things that are should never be an advantage or a disadvantage such as sex, religion, etc. It's not so much that I think URM students are taking over or anything, I guess I just don't agree with anyone having an advantage based on those factors above.

Anyways, none of my relatives were even in the US during the 60s and before. AA, and reparations too I guess, just seems like it hurts us even though we didn't do anything wrong.

In any case, this isn't a flame but maybe you'll be entertained anyways =)

Jeff
 
Ryo-Ohki - I really wonder why you keep bringing this AA/race stuff up. more so than anyone else on this board, I find you consistently voiceferous on this issue? Why? whats your personal beef?
Seriously, I really want to understand why this is such a big deal for you.
More and more I am disturbed by the vehemence with which people respond to AA issues...
I think its extremely shortsighted to focus on the med school admissions game. How come why dont see any of this tide of public opinion for tort reform or a reform in managed care... the type of crap thats going to be putting a bad taste in your mouth for the entire length of your professional career.
No offence to those who have some sort of personal beef with AA, but this just seems like another expression of the pre-med gunnerism... cry me a river that you didnt get in to harvard because some black kid did and now you have to settle for stanford. 🙄
point out to me, one kid who applied across the board, with reasonable stats, and didnt get in because his spot at each of the 20 schools he applied to was taken up by a URM.

I encourage all of us to take our collective heads out of our a$$es and stop being so freaking myopic and look at the really important issues which have had a negative impact on medicine and will continue to do so in the foreseeable future. stop chasing down the 15% or whatever URMs there are in med school like a pack of jackals going after some wounded animal and focus on the crap that will affect all of us, everyday.
End Rant.
To those who I offended, I apologize.
 
Originally posted by DarkChild
Ryo-Ohki - I really wonder why you keep bringing this AA/race stuff up. more so than anyone else on this board, I find you consistently voiceferous on this issue? Why? whats your personal beef?
Seriously, I really want to understand why this is such a big deal for you.
More and more I am disturbed by the vehemence with which people respond to AA issues...
I think its extremely shortsighted to focus on the med school admissions game. How come why dont see any of this tide of public opinion for tort reform or a reform in managed care... the type of crap thats going to be putting a bad taste in your mouth for the entire length of your professional career.
No offence to those who have some sort of personal beef with AA, but this just seems like another expression of the pre-med gunnerism... cry me a river that you didnt get in to harvard because some black kid did and now you have to settle for stanford. 🙄
point out to me, one kid who applied across the board, with reasonable stats, and didnt get in because his spot at each of the 20 schools he applied to was taken up by a URM.

I encourage all of us to take our collective heads out of our a$$es and stop being so freaking myopic and look at the really important issues which have had a negative impact on medicine and will continue to do so in the foreseeable future. stop chasing down the 15% or whatever URMs there are in med school like a pack of jackals going after some wounded animal and focus on the crap that will affect all of us, everyday.
End Rant.
To those who I offended, I apologize.
Click to expand...

Perhaps because 1) forums like this are a great way to gauge opinions, for and against, that one may have never heard and appreciated; 2) Ryo-Ohki stands by certain principles (e.g., meritocracy) that he doesn't compromise.

I've read much of Ryo's posts, and he strikes me as a reasonable individual. Not because I agree with his views, but because I can understand his logic. Other people who strongly believe in AA because they argue increasing diversity actually helps society more than increasing meritocracy does -- while I disagree, I can understand them as well.

But what I cannot understand are ridiculous statements like, "cry me a river that you didnt get in to harvard because some black kid did and now you have to settle for stanford." You are entirely missing the point. It's not about whether one should be happy with a top 5 school or "just" a top 10 school. It's about the idea that someone else is getting something you deserve.

If you're at Six Flags and you have another hour of waiting in line, would you want some random person to cut in front of you? It shouldn't add any time to your wait, but you probably wouldn't allow it. Because you believe in principles. Now have some consistency in the expression of them.
 
Hey, Geneman, have you ever heard of the Q-Bot ? Cutting in line at Six Flags is encouraged now! I've used this thing, and it's great!

Hmmm. Maybe I should say something about the topic at hand? I'm not for AA either, but I have to admit that I don't see the point of the near-daily threads complaining about it. If this was any other topic (Ur viewz on LOIs!!!, for example) we would be telling the posters to do a search instead of cluttering up the board. Or we would just make fun of them in the... Affirmative Action thread.

My question, though, is what is a URM SUPPOSED to do in a system with AA? Should "underqualified" URMs be discouraged from applying to Harvard because they might take away someone's spot? Non-URMs are always encouraged on here to reach because it's better to have at least tried. If a URM does get into a school like Harvard, should s/he DECLINE the position because it was obtained "unfairly?" I don't think it's possible for an individual to know whether or not s/he was accepted on merit or merely to fill some quota, so I don't see what good this discussion is here. We might agree that we don't like AA, but there's nothing we can do about it on SDN. If you're so passionate about this issue, why don't you write to the med schools and tell them your thoughts?
 
Hi Curci. Q-Bot is neat-o! Gotta love progress... if we could only have some in social issues as well... what a smooth segway into AA... [bow]

Just a few comments... I think, unlike letters of intent, AA is a dynamic issue and thus warrants new threads (maybe not every day but ...). My own views on it certainly have evolved somewhat since my first post on SDN.

About your question, I think there are two distinct issues here: what to do within the system and whether to change the system itself. I think most of the debate lies in AA reform.

As for what a URM should do within the current system? Take full advantage of it, of course. Individuals should always (and usually do) act in their own self-interests. The most successful societies are those that "automatically" channel these personal energies into the greater societal good.
 
great..here we go again with another aa thread
 
Originally posted by DW
there needs to a pic with this post TeinVI 😛
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couldn't find any funny ones :|
 
Originally posted by geneman
It's about the idea that someone else is getting something you deserve.
Click to expand...

There's one fatal flaw to this...admissions to medical school...or plenty of other schools...aren't based on principles of a meritocracy. If so, they wouldn't even have this type of process (ie, AMCAS....secondaries..interviews...). At some point, all admissions to anything is completely arbitrary. Who's to say that X deserved to get rejected just because the admissions committee member who interviewed her didn't really like her reasons for being a doctor that much? It's arbitrary and if it wasn't, then there would be a friggin' computer in charge of filtering out who gets into medical school. Every school wants a certain mix of people into their class....and I'm not just talking race or ethnicity...I'm talking about major, undergraduate school, experiences, age, location....all of these can enhance the learning environment for the student.

I'm waiting for the day that someone hates on me for being a philosophy major....we have the 3rd highest acceptance rate of any major according to AMCAS....yet the only flames I ever get is because of being black. hehehe...life is funny.

And I feel you Raptor...I really do.

Karen
 
I see the point that those saying "socioeconomic" status should be the basis and not so-called "race." However, the *PURPOSE* of affirmative action is *NOT* go get poor kids a chance to become doctors/lawyers. Rather, the PURPOSE is to get people with black skin into those positions, because, unfortunately, in today's world... the color of your skin still means a lot culturally.

Based on that note, society *NEEDS* more *BLACK* doctors/lawyers - period.

Leon - white male
 
Originally posted by kreno
I see the point that those saying "socioeconomic" status should be the basis and not so-called "race." However, the *PURPOSE* of affirmative action is *NOT* go get poor kids a chance to become doctors/lawyers. Rather, the PURPOSE is to get people with black skin into those positions, because, unfortunately, in today's world... the color of your skin still means a lot culturally.

Based on that note, society *NEEDS* more *BLACK* doctors/lawyers - period.

Leon - white male
Click to expand...

I agree that that's what the program right now is about. However, if it were done socioeconomically, most URMs would still gain an advantage because unfortunately, their average incomes are below those of non-URMs. Further, the URMs who would no longer benefit (that is, those who come from wealthy families) would have an incentive to work harder which is beneficial to them and everyone else. So if you're speaking to the overall purpose of the program, URMs who are helped today would still be helped if the system changed.
 
Why do we have a policy that the vast majority of citizens of all races do not believe in?
 
Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Why do we have a policy that the vast majority of citizens of all races do not believe in?
Click to expand...

I guarantee that the vast majority of URMs do support AA, because they know that it is needed, in some form or another. What makes you say that citizens of all races do not believe in AA? Maybe Whites don't, but don't speak for all races.
 
Ninety percent of the 756 blacks polled by Paul Sniderman and Thomas Piazza for their recent book, Black Pride and Black Prejudice, opposed admitting a black applicant over a white applicant with SAT scores 25 points higher. (In fact, average SAT scores for blacks at elite universities can be 150 to 200 points, or more, below those of whites and Asians.)

http://www.chronwatch.com/featured/contentDisplay.asp?aid=1228
 
Any URMs out there who are anti-AA (race based)? I have a pre-med friend who is just that. Her ideas are refreshing: that we are all people and further classification only serves to harm.

Anyone else feel the same?
 
Where in that statistic does it say that Blacks don't support AA?
 
"opposed admitting a black applicant over a white applicant with SAT scores 25 points higher"

That's not AA?
 
Oh, you mean the anti-discriminatory and "plus factor among equals" version of AA many people have in their heads?


Well, yeah, I support that kind of AA too.


Too bad it doesn't exist.
 
So you ASSume that all AA cases arbitrarily admit a Black student over a White one even if the Black students numbers are lower? Give me a break. There are many instances where Blacks have numbers comparable to White students, and AA is used simply as a tiebreaker.

I know its hard for some of you to believe, but there are some minorites that have similar numbers to you.

I'm Black, have a 3.92, and a 30+ MCAT. If I get into med school this year, it won't be because I was black and some Adcom decided to admit me because of this.

You are right, in that many URMs would not want to admit Blacks simply because of their race, but only if their numbers are comparable to Whites. That is not what AA is all about though.
 
If you are among those 20% of URMs that the AAMC thinks would get into medical school based on merit alone, then congratulations. AA and I are referring to the other 80%.
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I'm Black, have a 3.92, and a 30+ MCAT. If I get into med school this year, it won't be because I was black and some Adcom decided to admit me because of this.
Click to expand...

How many people will take one look at you and think the only reason you got to where you were was because of your race? It will happen, and I am sorry for that.

I have heard this debate over and over. IMO, AA helps and harms. From the outside looking in, (as a non-URM), I see AA as more harmful than benificial regarding medical school admissions. I have heard the non-urm colleagues snicker behind the backs of urm counterparts-accounting their successes to AA only (then again I am in the deep south). It is angers me that humans were violated and continue to be violated-however, I honestly do not see how further separation will make things better.

As a woman (AND LETS NOT FORGET THAT AA WAS DESIGNED TO HELP WOMEN TOO) raised in a family that was so gender biased my father did not allow me to cut my hair or allow my mother to work outside of the home, I think that AA served its purpose for women. We can now fly a damn F-16, I think we made it! (in the USA anyways).

////Isidella zips up flame-******ant suit////
 
All I was saying is that AA goes beyond letting in URMs with lower numbers, its about having people of color in medicine and other fields that correctly represent their percentages in this country.

I think it is racist to assume that blacks only get in because of their race, and not their merit.
 
Yes, AA has benefitted women in this country.

AA has benefitted URMs in this country.

But we still have work to do. Just because you think that women have "made" it, doesn't mean that AA should be abolished. The color of our skin will always be a disadvantage for people of color unless we do something about it.

Also, I resent what you said about me. For your information, California has no AA, so people will know I am a doctor because of my merit, not my race. I don't live in the racist South, and I'm glad there are a greater proportion of people here that are more open-minded.
 
To achieve the goal of "having people of color in medicine and other fields that correctly represent their percentages in this country", AA admits URMs with lower stats.

You're arguing the goal. I'm arguing the process.


Heh, AA was once designed in part to protect woman. Isn't it ironic that Grutter and Gratz are both women? Of course, the irony wasn't exactly unplanned...
 
I think everyone agrees that, in its current, incarnation, AA does not work.

I do believe, however, that something must be done. We cannot allow this country to have fewer URM physicians for whatever reasons than we already do. The only way I see us rectifying this is to have somesort of Affirmative Action.
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1

Also, I resent what you said about me. For your information, California has no AA, so people will know I am a doctor because of my merit, not my race.
Click to expand...

I was just relating what I have seen. Not every state is like Cali-There is diversity in thought as well as diversity in appearance. Sorry if that offends you, but that has been my experience thus far. (Things you have said have offended me too but I chalked that up to us living separate lives. I do not resent you for it.)

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1

I don't live in the racist South, and I'm glad there are a greater proportion of people here that are more open-minded.
Click to expand...

"The racist South" IMO, that phrase is proof that you a pretty immature.
There are racist people here as there are in Cali. What proportion of racists have to exist in a region before it is termed "racist?" I am the first to admit, there a quite a few people here who are angry about the situtation, that is why I mentioned that i am in the deep south. The fact is, the topic gets mixed reviews everywhere.

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
The color of our skin will always be a disadvantage for people of color unless we do something about it.
Click to expand...

Just for giggles: The fact that we have a vaginas will always be a disadvantage for people with chromosomes XX unless we do something about it.
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I'm Black, have a 3.92, and a 30+ MCAT. If I get into med school this year, it won't be because I was black and some Adcom decided to admit me because of this.
Click to expand...
You'll still benefit from AA. You'll get into Harvard, Standford, Yale with those stats, while the non-urm will end up at U of State Medical College.

-ws (a complete and absolute supporter of AA)
 
Oh will I get into those schools?

I haven't.
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Oh will I get into those schools?

I haven't.
Click to expand...
My point is still valid.
 
Originally posted by isidella
How many people will take one look at you and think the only reason you got to where you were was because of your race? It will happen, and I am sorry for that.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I'm Black, have a 3.92, and a 30+ MCAT. If I get into med school this year, it won't be because I was black and some Adcom decided to admit me because of this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by womansurg
You'll still benefit from AA. You'll get into Harvard, Standford, Yale with those stats, while the non-urm will end up at U of State Medical College.

-ws (a complete and absolute supporter of AA)
Click to expand...

Is this not a case in point? Disturbing. . .
 
Originally posted by isidella
"The racist South" IMO, that phrase is proof that you a pretty immature.
There are racist people here as there are in Cali. What proportion of racists have to exist in a region before it is termed "racist?" I am the first to admit, there a quite a few people here who are angry about the situtation, that is why I mentioned that i am in the deep south. The fact is, the topic gets mixed reviews everywhere.
Click to expand...

How am I pretty immature? You are pretty naive if you think that the South does not have the reputation of having many racist people. Not that everyone there is racist, mind you, but its definately a place I wouldn't want to practice medicine, or live for that matter.

What did I say that you resent?
 
womansurg, I am appalled by what you just said.

So at those schools that you mentioned, all the people there are URMs? No.

Most of those, are White people with similar numbers, and there ae whites there with lesser numbers. Don't cry foul when a few minorities get into those so-called elite schools over a few whites. Trust me, its simply a drop in the bucket.
 
Originally posted by isidella
[BIs this not a case in point? Disturbing. . . [/B]
Click to expand...
Completely consistent with the philosophy and the outcomes of AA as it is practiced in medical school admissions. No more disturbing than everything else already discussed about the admissions process and race.
 
Let me say one thing.

I do not think that URMs deserve a bonus for simply being a URM. But I do think they should be admitted over a SIMILARLY QUALIFIED White, because we need them in medicine.

I'm really sad right now that so many Whites on this board, and all over the country, seriously think they're getting screwed over. How can you think that when the VAST majority of those in Med school are still White and Asian? Do you really hate us that much?

When we have color-blind practices in all walks of life, we won't need AA. Until that day, some form of it is needed.
 
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