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[womansurg]

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Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
womansurg, I am appalled by what you just said.

Can't do much about that.

So at those schools that you mentioned, all the people there are URMs? No.

eh....come again?

Most of those, are White people with similar numbers, and there ae whites there with lesser numbers. Don't cry foul when a few minorities get into those so-called elite schools over a few whites. Trust me, its simply a drop in the bucket.

Agreed. It is simply a drop in the bucket. No one is crying foul here; I completely support AA in the medical school admissions process, and have posted heavily to that effect on other threads. The reality is, if you look at the stats on URM at any institution of medical education in the US, they are lower than for non-urm's. Thus, at U of state, if the average stats are 3.70 and 30, the urm average may be 3.40 and 26. At U of Ivy League, if the average stats are 3.90 and 35, the urm average is 3.70 and 30.

I'm sorry if factual information appalls you.

 

[UCSBMed1]

Who said that appalled me?

What appalls me is that some here assume that ALL URMs are only in Med school because of their race. AA is not just about letting in URMs of any qualification, h*ll if it was, the numbers would be irrelevant. Its also about using AA as a tiebreaker between two similarly qualified applicants.

I am well aware that the "average" numbers for URMs are lower than that for ORMs. All I'm saying is that not all of us URMs applying for med school are inferior to other applicants.

 

[isidella]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
How can you think that when the VAST majority of those in Med school are still White and Asian? Do you really hate us that much?

"Hate" is a very strong word!!!!! Don't project that word back onto womansurg or me just because you do not like the way this discussion is going!

As for things you have said that I "resent. . ." I do not resent anything, I may be offended, but I do not resent you for saying what you feel (look at my signature). I have found some of the things you said in this and previous AA discussions to be very narrowminded. The fact that you say "most whites" without providing a link to a statistic is in a little sketchy. But by all means, continue to voice your opinion. It is one of the remaining rights we both have.

 

[DarkChild]

i've bit my tongue long enough. perhaps all caps will get through to y'all:

SINCE WHEN DO HIGHER STATS EQUATE WITH BEING BETTER QUALIFIED OR HAVE ANY CORRELATION WITH YOUR CAPABILITIES AS A DOCTOR?

y'all are hypocrites: the very same people who say that 39s and 3.9s dont cake walk into medical school because other parts of the application are crucial are the same ones who turn around and use those stats to cry foul at AA. look at the safe score post... no one here wants to argue that kids with certain MCAT scores and GPAs are shoe-ins for med school, so why use that same barometer to berate AA?

the funny thing, is that its not ever the top candidates, the white kids with the 3.9s and the 40s who bitch about AA. its funny that those of you who try to justify your weak stats with "interesting" and "diverse" EC's and vainly claim that you're so much more than your stats cant deal with AA.

those of you who keep bitching about this really need to let it go. just another manifestation of the premed gunnerism.

maybe if y'all spent more time studying you wouldnt have such a problem with AA.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
AA is not just about letting in URMs of any qualification, h*ll if it was, the numbers would be irrelevant. Its also about using AA as a tiebreaker between two similarly qualified applicants.

I understand your indignation.

I think first of all we need to cast aside the misinterpretation that AA as it is practiced in medical admissions is used as "a tiebreaker between two similarly qualified applicants". With regards to academic standards, qualifications are decidely NOT similar. Stats which would disqualify non-urm's are quite sufficient to guarantee admission for urm's. Stats which would relegate a non-urm to mediocrity will place an urm in a top notch school.

The justification for AA has to do with the wisdom of the adcoms in using additional criteria aside from academic performance in selecting candidates. The medical community is best served by representation of a diversity of philosophies, cultures, backgrounds, mindsets... Adcoms do a good job in choosing candidates with academic skills adequate to address the organizational and intellectual tasks of practicing medicine. They then select from among this pool, with one goal of achieving a medical pool which somewhat reflects the societal pool which it services. This is done not only with respect to race and culture, but also to economic class, life experiences, age differences, and so forth. Some people come to the discipline of medicine offering their good memories and structured thinking, as demonstrated by gpa's of 3.95 and MCATs of 38. Others bring different talents and gifts, which are just as - and often more - important and valuable.

This is a GOOD THING and deserves no apologies or excuses.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Yeah, stats don't mean anything.
For example, Bakke's scores were higher but who made the most of his medical school education? From whom did California taxpayers benefit more? Bakke or Chavis?


You're right. Somebody needs to study more and get higher stats.

 

[UCSBMed1]

For curiosity's sake, what are your stats, Ryo-Ohki?

I can compete with any White applicant, any day of the week. My stats are not low. Not all URMs have low stats. And thats FACT.

 

[fonzy]

I think that everyone should be treated equally; that is no preference to any race or reserved seats for anyone. If someone has no resources to go to school or prepare for a test, she/he should be helped financially and not by compromising with standards and admit them just to have diversity. If only red, blue or green [example] colored people deserve to be admitted by a particular school because of their achievements, then only they should be admitted. The sanctity of education must not be compromised.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Who said that appalled me?

What appalls me is that some here assume that ALL URMs are only in Med school because of their race. AA is not just about letting in URMs of any qualification, h*ll if it was, the numbers would be irrelevant. Its also about using AA as a tiebreaker between two similarly qualified applicants.

I am well aware that the "average" numbers for URMs are lower than that for ORMs. All I'm saying is that not all of us URMs applying for med school are inferior to other applicants.

I think it is just as fair to assume that most URMs get in with significantly lower stats because of AA just as it was fair for you to assume that most people in the South are racist.

You arent helping your cause by perpetuating stereotypes. You seem to think that because you are a URM that no one should stereotype URMs as inferior academically. Yet then you come around and say the South is inferior morally and that it is known to be racist.

If you really believe that you are aware of the averages and that people can transcend stereotypes, it would behoove you to not cast stereotypes on a geographical region. Maybe then you can legitimately begin a discourse on stereotypes and AA. It is extremely hypocritical to denounce one stereotype that affects you, and then practice another stereotype that affects others. In fact, stereotyping others disfavorably and yourself favorable, as you seem to do here when talking about the South, is exactly what you are opposing in the URM debate.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I can compete with any White applicant, any day of the week. My stats are not low. Not all URMs have low stats. And thats FACT.

Right. And what does that have to do with AA?

You're sitting up a strawman. No anti-AA person in thread has said ALL 100% URMs matriculants all under-qualified. I am saying 80% of URM medical school matriculants are getting in only because of their race.

At least womansung is honest with herself.
Hey, womansung, do you go to doctors admitted under AA exclusively? I'll be really impressed then. LOL

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Actually, if more URMs had your attitude, UCSBPre-Med1, we wouldn't have AA.

You don't want lower standards, right?

 

[UCSBMed1]

You love to argue with me, Gleevec don't you? 😉

When the h*ll did I say the South was inferior morally?

Southerners are very moral, and righteous people. Saying that the South is known for its anti-Black racial policies is FACT. Ask anyone from outside the region and they will tell you that. There are racists everywhere, but in the south there are more. Its changed, but its still a major hub of racial tension. Saying otherwise, would be denying the truth. I have nothing against the South, but its a place I would never want to live.

Its also fact that most URMs get into med school with lower numbers. I know this. But not all, and I will be one of them.

 

[UCSBMed1]

You're right, Ryo-Ohki. We wouldn't need it.

I want to get rid of AA just as bad as you.

The only reason that I started this debate was for you to realize (or maybe you already did) that there are some URMs that do study hard, and do have the grades to get into med school.

 

[isidella]

Originally posted by DarkChild
maybe if y'all spent more time studying you wouldnt have such a problem with AA.

/////sarcasm//////I am extremely offended that you assume eveyone here is a traditional student! Some of us graduated college 2, 3 or 30 years ago!!!! We work 9-5 jobs! Our resumes were locked in a long time ago.

/////sarcasm off//// really though, SDN is my outlet. I don't have to study as I graduated 2 years ago and I am currently doing research. I come here to see who my future classmates are. I must say, they are pretty interesting people. I can't wait to sit down with them and have a cup of Starbucks Coffee.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Problems with eliminating AA

--Underserved inner cities

Solution: Create a contract based system not unlike the Rural Health programs where people can vye for slots, regardless of their race. This way, underserved inner cities can get better doctors and not AA doctors like Chavis.

--2% minority admissions in medical school

Solution: First part: Higher expectations will lead to higher results. The second part won't be as easy to swallow. It is not SES, genetics, or racism that is causing the lower scores. It is cultural. We have to say that it is NOT ok to score 200 points then your peers on the SAT just because of your skin color. URMs have to be a little more open to analysis such as this:
'What amazed me is that these kids who come from homes of doctors and lawyers are not thinking like their parents; they don't know how their parents made it. 'They are looking at rappers in ghettos as their role models, they are looking at entertainers. The parents work two jobs, three jobs, to give their children everything, but they are not guiding their children.'" --Professor Ogbu


It?s tough love.

 

[isidella]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Southerners are very moral, and righteous people.

Another stereotype, but since i am not originally from the south I will let it slide 😉

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Saying that the South is known for its anti-Black racial policies is FACT. Ask anyone from outside the region and they will tell you that.

Please check out www.tolerance.org. It shows the distribution of hate based groups in the US. It shows SC as having a large amount of "Confederate" groups, but it is a fact that many of those are groups that tell the history of the civil war. Some are bastards, but others give carriage tours and maintain plantation gardens. Check out Californai while you are at it. There are plenty of Neo-nazi and Nation of Islam groups. Real nice open-minded people there in cali. 🙄

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
There are racists everywhere, but in the south there are more.

We are scientists, future doctors. Show me the data. Give me a number.

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Its changed, but its still a major hub of racial tension. Saying otherwise, would be denying the truth.

True. But this applies to the entire US. Look up some of the stats about the gold rush in Cali. Guess who was doing the most diggin'??? (really it may shock you if you do not already know)

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I have nothing against the South, but its a place I would never want to live.

But do not give up the chance to visit here. It is truly charming.

 

[UCSBMed1]

I'm sure it is a nice place to live, but I wouldn't want to look at the Confederate flag flying over state buildings. I'm sorry, but for a Black person, that is something very hard to deal with--especially if you're from California.

I know there are racists here. But there are also many places of cultural solidarity.

In many parts of my home state (including my home of Stockton) Blacks, Whites, Latinos, and Asians all live together in peace. There is no racial majority here. We have our racial problems like everywhere else, but in MY EXPERIENCE, it is less of an issue here.

I've been to Tennessee, Texas, and South Carolina. I felt so uncomfortable there, it made me sad. It was beautiful, but the way I was treated was not good. California is by no means color-blind, but in my opinion, its as close as this country gets.

Racism is something you can't measure. You can't poll the citizens of a region and ask them if they are racist. But you can ask a URM how they felt when they travelled to those places, and they would tell you that there was definately "tension" at the places I've visited to say the least.

Not all of the South is like this, but its a problem there. Of course, you wouldn't really understand that, because you aren't a URM, so you wouldn't know how the "vibe" of Cali is versus that of South Carolina.

 

[isidella]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Of course, you wouldn't really understand that, because you aren't a URM,

sure, because as a non-urm, I feel only happy happy white white disneyland world. Open your mind. You are not the only one who feels pain for the cards you have been dealt. If you felt no pain it would not matter to you, same goes for me. But it does matter to me. Once people realize that it is not easy, no matter what color or gender you are, we will be free.

 

[UCSBMed1]

When did I say that you live in a "happy happy whatever world?"

What I was saying is that, if you were a URM, you wouldn't be questioning my statements about the South. You'd already know...

I'm glad you do care, isidella. Trust me, I do. Its gonna take people like you to change this country. Keep caring, because my community definately needs people on the other side to care about them. I only hope I did not alienate anyone from caring, because I care about all people.

 

[isidella]

I care and will continue to do so. As long as we can agree to disagree, its cool. 😎 Really though, if I had a time machine, I would go back and beat some ass. Maybe the present and future would be a little nicer for everyone

(maybe not though since some people are just inherently rotten). 🙁

Truce?

 

[UCSBMed1]

Truce.

It was a pleasure arguing with you. 🙂

 

[pillowhead]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1


Also, I resent what you said about me. For your information, California has no AA, so people will know I am a doctor because of my merit, not my race. I don't live in the racist South, and I'm glad there are a greater proportion of people here that are more open-minded.

Open-minded??? The "racist South"? I hardly think that implying all southerners are racist qualifies you as being open-minded. Gee, don't buy into stereotypes or anything. 🙄

 

[pillowhead]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Let me say one thing.



I'm really sad right now that so many Whites on this board, and all over the country, seriously think they're getting screwed over. How can you think that when the VAST majority of those in Med school are still White and Asian? Do you really hate us that much?

I'm white and i do not feel that affirmative action is screwing me over. I have five acceptances. Just b/c AA isn't personally screwing me over, that does not mean I am okay with it. I can oppose AA based on legal and philosophical grounds. Don't assume that people who oppose AA do so b/c they're whiners who think URMs are "stealing" spots. I don't hate you b/c you're black; what I don't like are your reasons for defending AA. I can disagree with your argument without hating you. And even if I did feel animosity toward you (I think that's a tough thing to judge when our only interaction is on an internet message board), it would because of your ideas, not your skin color.

 

[UCSBMed1]

Gee, don't buy into putting words in my mouth either.

I never once said that ALL Southerners are racist, or that ALL Californians are open-minded...

Why don't you try reading what I said and not trying to fish for stuff to argue about... 🙄

 

[Gleevec]

Being racist is morally inferior in my book (that was the context of my statement, in regards to racism).

There are more probably racists in the South, but let me ask you something. If the whole point of AA is to eliminate racist barriers and to ultimately eliminate racism by showing everyone that URMs are normal, everyday, succesful people, then isnt it counterproductive for future doctors like yourself to refuse to practice in the south. In other words, if the URMs that do get into med school refuse to practice in the south and serve as role models to the racists and victims of racists, then is there any point to AA at all?

AA is supposed to bring in URM doctors to serve in underserved populations, but also to show people that URMs can have successful occupations. If URMs are not willing to mentor and educate the very populations that they perceive to be racist, then is there really any point to the whole program?

(this is not directed at you, but in general. I know plenty of URMs who simply want the advantage of getting into med school and have no desire to serve underserved populations/their own people)

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
You love to argue with me, Gleevec don't you? 😉

When the h*ll did I say the South was inferior morally?

Southerners are very moral, and righteous people. Saying that the South is known for its anti-Black racial policies is FACT. Ask anyone from outside the region and they will tell you that. There are racists everywhere, but in the south there are more. Its changed, but its still a major hub of racial tension. Saying otherwise, would be denying the truth. I have nothing against the South, but its a place I would never want to live.

Its also fact that most URMs get into med school with lower numbers. I know this. But not all, and I will be one of them.

 

[pillowhead]

I didn't need to put words in your mouth when you already put your foot in your mouth.

If the south is such a crappy place for black people to live, then why is Atlanta considered a mecca for many young black professionals and middle class families? Atlanta had the highest rate of black population growth of ANY Amerifcan city during the 1990s. We have Spelman here, Morehouse, Clark Atlanta, and Morris Brown...all well respected historically black colleges. Georgia Tech is considered one the best schools nationwide for black undergraduates and graduates more black engineers than almost any other school.

I know the south has its weird issues...I'm an Iranian Jew and I've certainly experienced both anti-Semitism and even anti-Arab/Muslim sentiments (despite being neither Arab nor Muslim), but you know what? If I just moved away from here and went to Los Angeles where all my relatives live, then quite a few people i know would have never have met a Jew or an Iranian and would still harbor traditionally prejudiced thoughts passed to them by their communities. Rather than running away from an area that has problems, why not stay there and work for change?

 

[rbassdo]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I'm sure it is a nice place to live, but I wouldn't want to look at the Confederate flag flying over state buildings. I'm sorry, but for a Black person, that is something very hard to deal with--especially if you're from California.

I know there are racists here. But there are also many places of cultural solidarity.

In many parts of my home state (including my home of Stockton) Blacks, Whites, Latinos, and Asians all live together in peace. There is no racial majority here. We have our racial problems like everywhere else, but in MY EXPERIENCE, it is less of an issue here.

I've been to Tennessee, Texas, and South Carolina. I felt so uncomfortable there, it made me sad. It was beautiful, but the way I was treated was not good. California is by no means color-blind, but in my opinion, its as close as this country gets.

Racism is something you can't measure. You can't poll the citizens of a region and ask them if they are racist. But you can ask a URM how they felt when they travelled to those places, and they would tell you that there was definately "tension" at the places I've visited to say the least.

Not all of the South is like this, but its a problem there. Of course, you wouldn't really understand that, because you aren't a URM, so you wouldn't know how the "vibe" of Cali is versus that of South Carolina.

Gee...wasn't it the voters of your home state of "Cali" that ended affirmative action a few years ago? Last I checked, the voters of South Carolina hadn't done that yet. What's it like to walk around "Cali" knowing that the majority of the people walking by you voted against AA? What's that vibe like?

 

[womansurg]

Folks, you have to be completely in denial or just have never traveled in your life to believe that - in general - the south is not dealing with more racism than elsewhere. It is embedded in the cultures there, so interwoven that people often don't even recognize it. Yep, there's racism everywhere, and yep, there are firmly established black subcultures in the south which afford great opportunity and protection for blacks. But for folks traveling to the south (Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama...) from other parts of the country, it's truly shocking at times.

 

[scootad.]

I agree the south is pretty bad. I wouldnt blame blacks for not feeling comfortable living and practicing there.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by scootad.
I agree the south is pretty bad. I wouldnt blame blacks for not feeling comfortable living and practicing there.

So if no well-off and respected blacks are willing to practice in the south, then I guess blacks in the south are doomed to their current fate?

 

[scootad.]

I was just talking about the personal perspective not the mass effect. I'm a Jew and even I wouldn't feel comfortable living and practicing in some areas of the South so I can just imagine how a black would feel. I don't think its fair that blacks should be expected to live their life in order to raise the condition of other members of their ethnicity. Thats quite a tall order not necessarily expected of other ethnicities.

 

[SistaKaren]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Solution: First part: Higher expectations will lead to higher results. The second part won't be as easy to swallow. It is not SES, genetics, or racism that is causing the lower scores. It is cultural. We have to say that it is NOT ok to score 200 points then your peers on the SAT just because of your skin color. URMs have to be a little more open to analysis such as this:
'What amazed me is that these kids who come from homes of doctors and lawyers are not thinking like their parents; they don't know how their parents made it. 'They are looking at rappers in ghettos as their role models, they are looking at entertainers. The parents work two jobs, three jobs, to give their children everything, but they are not guiding their children.'" --Professor Ogbu

I can support the higher expectations lead to higher results...but I don't think that is what's holding black people back. No one thinks it's acceptable to score 200 points lower than their peers. Maybe I live in some fantasy world or something..but I have never met anyone, let alone a black person...who is willing to submit to being inferior if they can help it. It's counterintuitive. Having self-respect for oneself would dictate that a person would want to do the best they can and not have anyone doubt their ability (I'm a Rawlsian, so that may be coloring my thoughts on that). I think that the mechanisms that are hindering black acheivement are significantly more complicated than needing a proverbial kick in the ass. Paternalism isn't the way to go.

The comments about the South....I can't say that they're untrue...but they really hit a nerve. Mark Mathabane, apartheid survivor and author, once stated that the south was a lot more racially balanced than the north and moved down to North Carolina and eventually married a white woman and has found more acceptance there. I dunno if I buy that. I dunno if my race was less of an issue in the north than the south..but I've never been to the west coast, so I can't say anything about that. I guess it just hit a nerve people dissing my home!

And....I think that anyone is crazy if they can differentiate between a URM that has gotten in to med school with AA or without it. It's not like their medical license is going to have an AA stamp on it. So therefore, it seems like anyone admitting that they have a problem with doctors that got into med school with AA are going to have a problem with URM doctors in general then. And that's a scary sign.

 

[SistaKaren]

Originally posted by scootad.
I was just talking about the personal perspective not the mass effect. I'm a Jew and even I wouldn't feel comfortable living and practicing in some areas of the South so I can just imagine how a black would feel. I don't think its fair that blacks should be expected to live their life in order to raise the condition of other members of their ethnicity. Thats quite a tall order not necessarily expected of other ethnicities.

OH yeah...that's the other thing I was going to comment on. The only way that any URM should be expected to live in a manner that uplifts other members of their race is if they sign a contract upon entry to med school. The idea that we have to is ludicrous. I think it would probably be a good idea...but it's not a requirement. In fact, members of all races should want to help a group that may be suffering, regardless of their race or affiliation.

 

[UCSBMed1]

Maybe the South isn't a bad place for blacks to live, but its a bad place for me to live.

I grew up in California, a place that has no racial majority.

Moving to the South would be severe culture shock for me. I respect any black person who can live there, but personally I couldn't do it.

And Gleevec, I see what you're saying, but there are many underrepresented communities that are not in the South that I can work in. I want to work with the communities near my home, cause many of the people in the Central Valley in California (San Joaquin Valley) don't have good role models. I want to be one. I just couldn't see my self living in a place that used to lynch my ancestors. Thats just me.

 

[SistaKaren]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I just couldn't see my self living in a place that used to lynch my ancestors. Thats just me. [/B]

Yeah...but the cops freakin' beat your contemporaries in Cali, huh? 😉 I'm just kidding....

I just hate the view that the South's so racist and stuff....I've found that people are generally more careful about race related things here and that people elsewhere take it for granted...for better or for worse. I dunno. I've never lived anywhere else for more than two months, so I'm slightly ignorant myself 🙂

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Maybe the South isn't a bad place for blacks to live, but its a bad place for me to live.

I grew up in California, a place that has no racial majority.

Moving to the South would be severe culture shock for me. I respect any black person who can live there, but personally I couldn't do it.

And Gleevec, I see what you're saying, but there are many underrepresented communities that are not in the South that I can work in. I want to work with the communities near my home, cause many of the people in the Central Valley in California (San Joaquin Valley) don't have good role models. I want to be one. I just couldn't see my self living in a place that used to lynch my ancestors. Thats just me.

Every region has its own historical problems with racism. Some of the worst offenders are in fact the race riots in NY and Chicago. But they have progressed since then, and so has the South.

But I guess if no black wants to practice in the South, no one here will ever be able to ameliorate the situation. A pretty bad catch-22.

 

[scootad.]

Why must a black move there to ameliorate the situation? Why dont you move there if you're so concerned, gleevec.

 

[SistaKaren]

Originally posted by Gleevec
But I guess if no black wants to practice in the South, no one here will ever be able to ameliorate the situation. A pretty bad catch-22.

I dunno. I don't think it has to be like that. For example, if you were to go to a predominantly black high school or something when you were a doctor and try to work with them to help encourage them to go to medical school and strive harder, I don't think you'd be that less effective (if you're less effective at all...)than if a black doctor did it.

What I'm saying is this...you see it as a problem, right? You should do something too, I think. The black community is not some walled off section of every area...what happens there affects other people. And as a conscientious citizen, I should think you would want to help too. That's just my opinion. It's not just black people's problem...it's everyone's.

Edit: ooh...Scootad and I are seeing eye to eye on this one! 🙂

 

[UCSBMed1]

Originally posted by SistaKaren
Yeah...but the cops freakin' beat your contemporaries in Cali, huh? 😉 I'm just kidding....

But thats LA, SistaKaren.

Los Angeles is in a class of its own. The city is very much divided on racial lines, and its in Southern California...but thats another debate entirely between Californians. 😉

You should come to California. San Francisco, Sacramento, Stockton, Los Angeles, etc. You'd have a great time. You'd get to see races all living together; not just in the same schools, but same neighborhoods, same proms, dating each other, etc. Its great here.

Not that we don't have our problems--just the other day at my school the Asian-American floor at one of the Freshman dorms was vandalized by some students. But, I think Californians make it a mission to live with each other in relative peace. Heck, we have to--as there aren't enough of any one race to dominate things. 😉

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

I think AA is good because it lets less qualified people into schools instead of more qualified ones.

 

[geneman]

Originally posted by DarkChild
i've bit my tongue long enough. perhaps all caps will get through to y'all:

SINCE WHEN DO HIGHER STATS EQUATE WITH BEING BETTER QUALIFIED OR HAVE ANY CORRELATION WITH YOUR CAPABILITIES AS A DOCTOR?

y'all are hypocrites: the very same people who say that 39s and 3.9s dont cake walk into medical school because other parts of the application are crucial are the same ones who turn around and use those stats to cry foul at AA. look at the safe score post... no one here wants to argue that kids with certain MCAT scores and GPAs are shoe-ins for med school, so why use that same barometer to berate AA?

the funny thing, is that its not ever the top candidates, the white kids with the 3.9s and the 40s who bitch about AA. its funny that those of you who try to justify your weak stats with "interesting" and "diverse" EC's and vainly claim that you're so much more than your stats cant deal with AA.

those of you who keep bitching about this really need to let it go. just another manifestation of the premed gunnerism.

maybe if y'all spent more time studying you wouldnt have such a problem with AA.

There aren't too many screen names that I can remember, but DarkChild is one. Why? Because I cannot find a consistent overarching principle that unifies her posts. Instead, they just seem reflexive -- a defensive response to each non-essential argument seeking to justify AA.

Whether "higher stats" is a good predictor of being a doctor is NOT the issue at all. If MCATs and GPAs are inadequate measures, then the solution is to find new measures, not institute AA.

For what it's worth, my pre-med advisor told me that I am a so-called top candidate with high stats and interesting EC's. But that is meaningless. Forget my background and take my arguments for what they're worth. I think any reasonable person that reads my posts can nod their head and say, "Yeah, he has a good point."

 

[Random Access]

UCSBPre-Med1...not that I actually like living in the South, but I'm going to have to complain about this one... There are racist people everywhere, not just in South. People might be more openly racist in the South, but people are racist everywhere.

For example...if you are a black person going to a white church in New Jersey, they won't tell you to go away. But they will tell you that "you might feel more comfortable at the church down the street."

You are hardly open-minded.

 

[elin]

pillowhead,
Why should it be the responsibility of the ethnic, racial, religious minority to educate the majority? I don't understand why people make that argument. If someone is ignorant, he/she holds the responsibility for educating his/herself. It's not bad to help someone in this process, but the responsibility is on the person. I use the same argument when people make the argument, "AA is unfair because it brings stigma upon all URM's." The problem is with the people who are too ignorant to rise above common prejudices, not with URM's. Gleevec- The point of AA is not to eliminate racism or to show that URM's are normal, everyday people. What kind of a statement is that? The point of AA is to help URM applicants who have directly/indirectly been hindered by their race in terms of schooling, life. Some URM applicants choose to serve in underserved areas, but serving underserved populations is not the main basis for AA. And I have to agree with USCB premed and womansurg on this one, I can see why man URM's would not want to live in the South. No one needs that extra stress in their lives. I also don't understand what is so evil about URM's who use their race to help them get into med school. I am not saying this is good, but many other people use their money, connections, blah blah to get into med school, but when its AA, oh yeah, then its a problem.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Random Access
...people are racist everywhere.

You are hardly open-minded.

I think part of being open minded is being truthful with yourself and others about the reality of things. It may offend some or be non-PC to characterize the south as having more than it's fair share of racial issues, but it's nonetheless reality.

In my own experiences, I've yet to meet a person originating from elsewhere who traveled down south and DIDN'T come away feeling shocked and uncomfortable about racial attitudes there. Yes, yes, yes, many exceptions exist.

Please, UCSB premed1 is being forthright here. The points that UCSB makes are substantiated by the experiences of many. Unless you've walked in the shoes of an African American experiencing the culture of the deep south for the first time in your life, you really have no right to engage in such censure. We need to be able to honestly talk about racial issues to deal with problems effectively. Let's move away from accusations and continue to explore how and why people feel the way they do.

 

[pillowhead]

Originally posted by scootad.
Why must a black move there to ameliorate the situation? Why dont you move there if you're so concerned, gleevec.

Well I'm not Gleevec, but many supporters of AA support it under the argument that black patients feel more comfortable with black doctors (b/c of Tuskegee experiments and stuff like that). Therefore, we should keep AA to get more black doctors who will in turn go back and help the black communities. I find it somewhat hypocritical to defend affirmative action on the premise that black patients need black doctors to get the best care, and then say well, why doesn't someone else fix the problem? You can't have it both ways.

And in reference to someone's comment (scootad I think) about Jews living in the south...I feel more comfortable here than I do when I visit New York and Los Angeles hands down! So much of it is simply what you're used to. I've very rarely experienced blatant anti-Semitism here. It's usually just ignorance which I'm always more than happy to correct.

 

[pillowhead]

Originally posted by elin
pillowhead,
Why should it be the responsibility of the ethnic, racial, religious minority to educate the majority? I don't understand why people make that argument. If someone is ignorant, he/she holds the responsibility for educating his/herself. It's not bad to help someone in this process, but the responsibility is on the person.

Because in the real world, many people are quite happy to live in ignorance until someone points out to them that their ideas about other groups are wrong. I don't see it as my duty to go out there and educate the world about the parts of my identity that separate me from the majority, but when someone says something kind of idiotic right in front of me about Judasim I think it's plain old irresponsible of me to just let it go. Of course, each individual is ultimately responsible for his own ignorance. But why not help them get educated? Ideally, it would be great if people realized their own ignorances and chose to self-educate, but come on, those people are not the majority. I think you took my comments one step to far about it being RESPONSIBILITY of minorities to educate. I think it's in their best interests to do so, therefore, I don't see why they wouldn't when the opportunity presents itself, but ultimately, let the individual decide what s/he wants to do.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

"<b>Why should it be the responsibility of the ethnic, racial, religious minority to educate the majority? </b>"


That's one of the reasons some people are arguing for diversity over merit in college admissions.

 

[elin]

what's the definition of merit Ryo-ohki? High grades and test scores? Most colleges do not think so. For most colleges, merit is how well you perform with the resources you are given. Few colleges place diversity above merit. Where do you get your information on affirmative action from, btw? It seems like you just read and hear what you want to hear, and ignore the rest. You quote from selected pieces of articles like Ogbu without any knowledge about his background, his critics. It seems like you just want to convert people to your viewpoint instead of understanding that this is not a black and white issue. There are many factors hear that you overlook or simplify to fit your needs. If you read so much about AA, I would hope that you wouldn't be as naive about the issue as you present yourself to be. Not trying to be mean or anything, maybe I'm just reading you wrong.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Merit based discriminators are open, defined, relevant and measurable.

GPA/MCAT/LORs/ECs are merit based.


Race/Legacy/How much racism you suffered/How much "diversity" you can bring are not merit based discriminators.


What is your criticism of the Shaker Heights study? Why do YOU think those kids are scoring so low?


edit: Weren't you the person trying to use The Shape of a River for an argument? What argument were you trying to make with that "study"?

 

[gel1]

UCSBPre-Med1,

I really hope you are applying to my med school. This city has a huge black and other minority population, and my school is right in the center of a huge black community. But when I look around my classes I see that there are only 4 or 5 black men out of the hundreds of students here--it's really embarrassing to me.

(yes, I know you probably are going to school in Cali 😉)