Advice for an Undergrad

Hello,

I'm an undergrad interested in pursuing an MD/PhD. I'm in my freshman year and I'm planning on declaring a Biochemistry major. So far, I've aligned myself to be a pre-PhD student and I've done research since summer 2008 and I have a 4.0 GPA. Currently I'm working in a Neuroscience lab where I'm able to act independently and I'm given some pretty awesome experience (I've used a confocal microscope on a regular basis, done some surgery and dissections, electrophysiology, and a ton of behavioral projects). My mentor is fairly young and doesn't publish in the big journals on a regular basis (IE: Nature, Science, etc); this is a troubling fact from what I've heard from others regarding application to MD/PhD programs. Apparently, you are gauged based off how well known your mentor is in the feild and need to have a decent academic pedigree. Also, I do not go to the most well regarded undergraduate school system (CUNY). All this along with my lack of clinical work seem as striking blocks to my sucess in admissions to staying in my home state (New York) for an MD/PhD. What advice do you guys have for someone like me? I'm not too worried about MCATs, as I figure I'd have plenty of time to study for them and I feel that I'm a competitive standardized test taker.

glutacidecarb said:

Hello,

I'm an undergrad interested in pursuing an MD/PhD. I'm in my freshman year and I'm planning on declaring a Biochemistry major. So far, I've aligned myself to be a pre-PhD student and I've done research since summer 2008 and I have a 4.0 GPA. Currently I'm working in a Neuroscience lab where I'm able to act independently and I'm given some pretty awesome experience (I've used a confocal microscope on a regular basis, done some surgery and dissections, electrophysiology, and a ton of behavioral projects). My mentor is fairly young and doesn't publish in the big journals on a regular basis (IE: Nature, Science, etc); this is a troubling fact from what I've heard from others regarding application to MD/PhD programs. Apparently, you are gauged based off how well known your mentor is in the feild and need to have a decent academic pedigree. Also, I do not go to the most well regarded undergraduate school system (CUNY). All this along with my lack of clinical work seem as striking blocks to my sucess in admissions to staying in my home state (New York) for an MD/PhD. What advice do you guys have for someone like me? I'm not too worried about MCATs, as I figure I'd have plenty of time to study for them and I feel that I'm a competitive standardized test taker.

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i just PMed you

glutacidecarb said:

My mentor is fairly young and doesn't publish in the big journals on a regular basis (IE: Nature, Science, etc); this is a troubling fact from what I've heard from others regarding application to MD/PhD programs.

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This is driving me insane. It seems like every other thread I say:

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PUBLISH AS AN UNDERGRAD TO GET INTO A TOP MD/PHD PROGRAM.

Correlary: if you do publish, it doesn't need to be in top-tier journals. I mean who the heck does publish regularly in big name journals?!

Apparently, you are gauged based off how well known your mentor is in the feild and need to have a decent academic pedigree.

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No. You're not. You're an undergrad. You work for whoever's lab you can stumble your way into.

Also, I do not go to the most well regarded undergraduate school system (CUNY).

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Also pretty irrelevant.

All this along with my lack of clinical work seem as striking blocks to my sucess in admissions to staying in my home state (New York) for an MD/PhD.

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Get some volunteering experience. This won't take long and you don't need a ton (100 hours is plenty). Find a doc and shadow a few times. Problem solved.

What advice do you guys have for someone like me?

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My advice is to find new advice. Get a high MCAT score and get the minimal clinical exposure and you seem fine to me.

Neuronix said:

This is driving me insane. It seems like every other thread I say:

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PUBLISH AS AN UNDERGRAD TO GET INTO A TOP MD/PHD PROGRAM.

Correlary: if you do publish, it doesn't need to be in top-tier journals. I mean who the heck does publish regularly in big name journals?!

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Mega Ditto.

Apparently, you are gauged based off how well known your mentor is in the feild and need to have a decent academic pedigree.

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This may be true for certain top programs (this number does not include WashU or UPenn) - if worried apply for jobs within city for summer. Every other program - not so relevant.

Also, I do not go to the most well regarded undergraduate school system (CUNY).

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Like I said, if worried get job working at another institution in New York. That said good mentors can be found within CUNY system. Mentors who have had students going into MD/PhD programs and have been successful at it are good targets.

Get some volunteering experience. This won't take long and you don't need a ton (100 hours is plenty). Find a doc and shadow a few times. Problem solved.

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Useless for many programs. Important for select institutions i.e. UCSF where regular medical school admissions also serves at gatekeeper for MD/PhD. 100 hours may not be enough.

Doctor&Geek said:

This may be true for certain top programs (this number does not include WashU or UPenn) - if worried apply for jobs within city for summer. Every other program - not so relevant.

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I worked for no name PIs at not big name schools (and at a hospital nobody had ever heard of), and you know where I ended up. Will it help you to work for big name people? Meh. If you have one nearby and convenient I'd say to go for it. But, I think if you can only spend a summer in a big name lab you probably won't get much out of it, so I doubt that would help you. My advice is to spend long periods of time in a lab you enjoy so you can really learn, get independent, publish if possible, etc...

Useless for many programs. Important for select institutions i.e. UCSF where regular medical school admissions also serves at gatekeeper for MD/PhD. 100 hours may not be enough.

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This is a subjective bit that gets debated ad nauseum. I used to post that you didn't really need any volunteering/shadowing for most MD/PhD programs. and that was the single biggest thing I used to get flamed for. That being said, I'm still not convinced that advice is wrong.

I wish I knew the right answer to advise pre-meds. I know that at some programs the MD program still does have a say or even acts as an initial approval, but they let MD/PhD applicants slide with less clinical exposure because they know they're MD/PhD applicants. Meanwhile, some programs don't care at all about the volunteering/shadowing thing. Others just want to see you have some. I think it's even going to come down the opinion of the adcom who reviews your application.

I've made it my own advising rule to get 100 hours or so just to cover your bases. Is it necessary for all programs? No. Is it enough for all programs? Hard to say.

As far as your mentors go, they don't have to be well known in the field, but its silly to say that it doesn't help for them to be well know to a particular admissions committee. I think its difficult to make generalizations about schools, but individual committee members at different schools value letters of recommendation more or less - if they value letters, they particularly value letters from people they know. However, you'd be surprised who they might know; just because your PI doesn't publish in Nature every month doesn't mean they haven't met some of the people you'll run into on the interview trail - science is a small world, particularly in certain fields. This is one reason why the admissions game is so random, little coincidences like that can have a big (IMHO) say on who gets in where, so your best bet is to apply broadly. But as others have said, it is not at all important for a student to be well published from a world-renowned laboratory.

As far as clinical experience, it is so comparatively easy to get shadowing experience that its almost silly not to. I don't know about particular amount of hours (and I wouldn't say the time is as important as having ~ 2 moderate length experiences with an anecdote or two for the interview trail). What's more, at some point, its not even about getting in, you need to have at least an educated guess as to whether is medicine is for you before you commit to eight years in an MD/PhD program.

JHopRevisit said:

As far as your mentors go, they don't have to be well known in the field, but its silly to say that it doesn't help for them to be well know to a particular admissions committee.

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This to me seems pretty much like the last consideration that can be on a pre-meds mind. How can the pre-med guess who will be known to a particular admissions committee? Maybe if you worked with someone on the admissions committee at one school or someone at that school. But then what about the 11 or so other schools you apply to?

I guess you could work for a nobel prize winner or something. Then they would be known to everyone 😀

I don't know about particular amount of hours (and I wouldn't say the time is as important as having ~ 2 moderate length experiences with an anecdote or two for the interview trail).

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I sort of agree. This is just about trying to give out some sort of benchmark to a nebulous factor. If you were advising pre-meds in general on how much clinical exposure they should have, what would you tell them? Just to shadow twice?

What's more, at some point, its not even about getting in, you need to have at least an educated guess as to whether is medicine is for you before you commit to eight years in an MD/PhD program.

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Personally I don't think there's any way you'll know you'll like or dislike medicine until you've been a third year or even an intern. But, your sentiment is the common and prevailing one.

I am currently applying to numerous MSTP programs, so I don't have the same experience as Neuronix or D&G, but I wanted to chime in on a few things anyways.

This is driving me insane. It seems like every other thread I say:

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PUBLISH AS AN UNDERGRAD TO GET INTO A TOP MD/PHD PROGRAM.

Correlary: if you do publish, it doesn't need to be in top-tier journals. I mean who the heck does publish regularly in big name journals?!

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Yes. Yes. And Yes.

I have one poster at a major national conference and one first author paper "in preparation." In preparation basically means nothing.

However, I have gotten 6 MSTP interviews (including UPenn) and 1 MD interview from Hopkins because I got an awesome letter form my PI. I did so because I have worked in the same lab for 2.5 years and have given good lab meetings, not done anything stupid, and tried to generally be useful.

The single most important thing is your PI's letter.

Useless for many programs. Important for select institutions i.e. UCSF where regular medical school admissions also serves at gatekeeper for MD/PhD. 100 hours may not be enough.

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From what I know from talking to people who have gotten MSTP interviews from Hopkins but were rejected pre-secondary from UCSF, totally true. I think U Wash and UCSF are actually want physician-scientists, not scientists who have MDs. So it is school specific, and you will need to show meaningful clinical interests.

glutacidecarb said:

All this along with my lack of clinical work seem as striking blocks to my sucess in admissions to staying in my home state (New York) for an MD/PhD.

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Ditto all of the above. If you want to stay in NY state, know that both SUNY Upstate and SUNY Downstate have programs. Upstate is in Syracuse and is a very good program. The med school is very good, and the research is fine (but there aren't many options). If your goal is to stay in state, those two schools should be on your list. Otherwise, there are the 5000000 schools in New York City. Like they said, you can get experience at one of them over the summer, or just stick with your PI. He sounds like he is giving you a lot of opportunities, and that is all that is important. Keep your GPA stellar and ace the MCAT, and you'll be able to get into a NYS school. If you keep doing well, you shouldn't have any problem with the two schools I mentioned, which regularly accept people from SUNY and CUNY schools, or any other school for that matter.

Neuronix said:

This to me seems pretty much like the last consideration that can be on a pre-meds mind. How can the pre-med guess who will be known to a particular admissions committee? Maybe if you worked with someone on the admissions committee at one school or someone at that school. But then what about the 11 or so other schools you apply to?

I guess you could work for a nobel prize winner or something. Then they would be known to everyone 😀

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I guess that was kind of my point. Even if your faculty is not well-known, their connections might still help you, and you shouldn't discount them just because you didn't go to Harvard for UG. And it's a crapshoot.

it is so comparatively easy to get shadowing experience that its almost silly not to.

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Really? I'm just interested in how it is the case. I tried to contact physicians around me to no avail. It seemed to me that you've got to have personal connections with physicians to get some shadowing experience (and in my case that wasn't possible).

Jorje286 said:

Really? I'm just interested in how it is the case. I tried to contact physicians around me to no avail. It seemed to me that you've got to have personal connections with physicians to get some shadowing experience (and in my case that wasn't possible).

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Hmm, that's surprising. I have to say that's not the usual reaction., at least in my experience. Who did you contact, and what were their reasons for not allowing you to shadow? What city/town are you in?