Starting salaries for FP's

medstudent3563 · Sep 19, 2005

Hi,

This may be kind of a hard question to answer considering the wide geographic variations in salary but I was wondering what I can expect for a starting salary as an FP. I was thinking about eventually doing an FP residency in Northern California (preferably SJ but anywhere within 2 hrs of there would be okay with me).

Doing research it seems the median FP salary in SJ is $171k (seems kind of high to me but that's what salary.com said), is it reasonable to expect a starting salary of about $100-115K right out of residency? Just wondering. Thanks.

edfig99 · Sep 19, 2005

medstudent3563 said:
Hi,

This may be kind of a hard question to answer considering the wide geographic variations in salary but I was wondering what I can expect for a starting salary as an FP. I was thinking about eventually doing an FP residency in Northern California (preferably SJ but anywhere within 2 hrs of there would be okay with me).

Doing research it seems the median FP salary in SJ is $171k (seems kind of high to me but that's what salary.com said), is it reasonable to expect a starting salary of about $100-115K right out of residency? Just wondering. Thanks.

that's more or less the salary of someone starting right out of residency into academics. it'll likely be a little higher in practice.

also remember that salary is only one portion of total compensation (think of total comp as salary+(the dollar value of benefits). the total compensation package is what you should be focusing on rather than salary.

Mike59 · Sep 20, 2005

Don't forget: location location location! Location (urban vs. rural, specialized area vs. underserved etc) dictates how many patients you can fill your roster with, how many high cost procedures/appointments you can schedule etc... If you are working in someone else's practice/group, I've heard from people in practice that the range is from 100k-150k typically. If you are starting your own practice, don't expect to "profit" the first few months or even the first couple of years, but afterwards you can pull some serious $$$, in the >$300-500k territory depending on what kind of empire you've created and how much sleep you've lost.

corpsmanUP · Sep 20, 2005

most hospital guarantees are running around 115-130K per year plus benefits.

PublicHealth · Sep 20, 2005

corpsmanUP said:
most hospital guarantees are running around 115-130K per year plus benefits.

Considering the amount of time, money, blood, sweat, and tears that one pours into medical training, this pay range really sucks. 🙁

corpsmanUP · Sep 20, 2005

PublicHealth said:
Considering the amount of time, money, blood, sweat, and tears that one pours into medical training, this pay range really sucks. 🙁

considering that places us in the top 1% in the world, the pay is pretty good. Anyone who cannot happily live off 120K per year needs to reevaluate what they want out of life and consider pursuing a career elsewhere. Many a PhD, teacher, cop, congressperson work way harder than we do and yet they are not compensated fairly. Try standing in a hot room with 20 six year olds all day for about 30K( my kids teacher). Try working 10P-6A as a cop with Tuesday and Wednesdays off, all for 33K (my wife). Try literally living in a hole in the Kuwaiti Desert for months on end for a swell 19K per year (me). Its all relative, and no matter how many years of school you think you suffered through, life is much tougher than school. I have done both, which is why I find medical school a vacation in many respects. Lets not pretend we don't have a great deal of freedom and flexibility as a medical student. The only year you seriously have to sweat and put in the hours is 3rd year. 1st and 2nd year are more about endurance, but time is yours to make of it. 4th year is like being the king of a small country after the first 3. I do wish FM docs were paid as well as some other specialties, but its still a great living and a great life. I feel blessed.

cooldreams · Sep 21, 2005

guys, you all complain because you dont understand

if you want the money, you can get it, but you have to work more hrs or change the practice to be a money making machine(potentially at a cost to the patients)

its all a give and take. the typical fp that makes that kind of money you guys are worried about is working 4 days or less, and is working for someone ELSE so they dont have to worry about pay checks or overhead. give and take....

there are plenty fps making over 200k even 300k that work lots of hrs, and work for themselves...

tobe · Sep 21, 2005

corpsmanUP said:
considering that places us in the top 1% in the world, the pay is pretty good. Anyone who cannot happily live off 120K per year needs to reevaluate what they want out of life and consider pursuing a career elsewhere. Many a PhD, teacher, cop, congressperson work way harder than we do and yet they are not compensated fairly. Try standing in a hot room with 20 six year olds all day for about 30K( my kids teacher). Try working 10P-6A as a cop with Tuesday and Wednesdays off, all for 33K (my wife). Try literally living in a hole in the Kuwaiti Desert for months on end for a swell 19K per year (me). Its all relative, and no matter how many years of school you think you suffered through, life is much tougher than school. I have done both, which is why I find medical school a vacation in many respects. Lets not pretend we don't have a great deal of freedom and flexibility as a medical student. The only year you seriously have to sweat and put in the hours is 3rd year. 1st and 2nd year are more about endurance, but time is yours to make of it. 4th year is like being the king of a small country after the first 3. I do wish FM docs were paid as well as some other specialties, but its still a great living and a great life. I feel blessed.

👍 👍

sophiejane · Sep 22, 2005

corpsmanUP said:
considering that places us in the top 1% in the world, the pay is pretty good. Anyone who cannot happily live off 120K per year needs to reevaluate what they want out of life and consider pursuing a career elsewhere. Many a PhD, teacher, cop, congressperson work way harder than we do and yet they are not compensated fairly. Try standing in a hot room with 20 six year olds all day for about 30K( my kids teacher). Try working 10P-6A as a cop with Tuesday and Wednesdays off, all for 33K (my wife). Try literally living in a hole in the Kuwaiti Desert for months on end for a swell 19K per year (me). Its all relative, and no matter how many years of school you think you suffered through, life is much tougher than school. I have done both, which is why I find medical school a vacation in many respects. Lets not pretend we don't have a great deal of freedom and flexibility as a medical student. The only year you seriously have to sweat and put in the hours is 3rd year. 1st and 2nd year are more about endurance, but time is yours to make of it. 4th year is like being the king of a small country after the first 3. I do wish FM docs were paid as well as some other specialties, but its still a great living and a great life. I feel blessed.

a-freakin-men to that. As a former freelance musician and small business owner who didn't really get any time off if I wanted to continue to eat, I wholeheartedly agree.

This is cake compared to what most people do. The hours, pay, and satisfaction are way above what the norm is in the working world. And what's this about blood sweat and tears?! PLEASE!! We sit on our butts studying for two years with no other responsibilities but to take and pass exams, then we go play doctor for 2 more years, then we start making money doing what we were trained to do.

island doc · Oct 7, 2005

medstudent3563 said:
Hi,

This may be kind of a hard question to answer considering the wide geographic variations in salary but I was wondering what I can expect for a starting salary as an FP. I was thinking about eventually doing an FP residency in Northern California (preferably SJ but anywhere within 2 hrs of there would be okay with me).

Doing research it seems the median FP salary in SJ is $171k (seems kind of high to me but that's what salary.com said), is it reasonable to expect a starting salary of about $100-115K right out of residency? Just wondering. Thanks.

According to this month's issue of Family Medicine News, the average annual salary for a Family Physician is $143,600. You could reasonably expect to start in the $110K-$140K range, depending upon location.

Newdoc2002 · Oct 11, 2005

While it is a good living, many of you do not realize that people often compare specialty to specialty and FM is at the bottom. That is a fact and are you telling me that you would turn down extra compensation because you are so altruistic? Fine by me, the peace corp needs docs.

FM trains as hard as the optho, derm (comparative hours) but gets paid much much less and in practice works harder, takes more risks and has to know more to do it (as being more serving as a PA with MD after their name).

We get paid a lot more than other people who work as many hours, but you won't find any other occupation (with large numbers) that compares to the training, skill and apptitude needed, demands on personal and family life than medicine, including FM. By the way, when you are finished with training you will realize that the crap rolls downhill into FM. The ortho says if you are still hurting go back to your PCP, the derm says I don't do that, go back to your PCP.

Do I love it, Yes and that's why I chose it. If I wanted to make a lot of money I wouldn't have gone into medicine in the first place. If any average joe with the drive can put as much money and hard work that it takes to get through and pay for medical school, they can start and succeed in their own business and eventually have more pay and a better lifestyle than any doctor.

If you shun making more than 6 figures a year, go be a priest or a social worker, but I sure hope you don't make decisions for reimbursement in medicine.

bla_3x · Oct 11, 2005

Newdoc2002 said:
While it is a good living, many of you do not realize that people often compare specialty to specialty and FM is at the bottom. That is a fact and are you telling me that you would turn down extra compensation because you are so altruistic? Fine by me, the peace corp needs docs.

FM trains as hard as the optho, derm (comparative hours) but gets paid much much less and in practice works harder, takes more risks and has to know more to do it (as being more serving as a PA with MD after their name).

We get paid a lot more than other people who work as many hours, but you won't find any other occupation (with large numbers) that compares to the training, skill and apptitude needed, demands on personal and family life than medicine, including FM. By the way, when you are finished with training you will realize that the crap rolls downhill into FM. The ortho says if you are still hurting go back to your PCP, the derm says I don't do that, go back to your PCP.

Do I love it, Yes and that's why I chose it. If I wanted to make a lot of money I wouldn't have gone into medicine in the first place. If any average joe with the drive can put as much money and hard work that it takes to get through and pay for medical school, they can start and succeed in their own business and eventually have more pay and a better lifestyle than any doctor.

If you shun making more than 6 figures a year, go be a priest or a social worker, but I sure hope you don't make decisions for reimbursement in medicine.

A-Men! 👍

sophiejane · Oct 12, 2005

Newdoc2002 said:
By the way, when you are finished with training you will realize that the crap rolls downhill into FM. The ortho says if you are still hurting go back to your PCP, the derm says I don't do that, go back to your PCP.

Why is that "crap"? Sounds like another customer to me, another reimbursement. Do you want them to NOT come back to you and you've got one less patient that day? I think I'd rather take my $15 from Medicaid (or whatever paltry sum it is these days) rather than not make that money at all.

I'm not really concerned with what other doctors think of my specialty (whatever I end up chosing). It's a personal matter and to me they are all equally important, especially to the patient.

debtisfun · Oct 27, 2005

corpsmanUP said:
considering that places us in the top 1% in the world, the pay is pretty good. Anyone who cannot happily live off 120K per year needs to reevaluate what they want out of life and consider pursuing a career elsewhere. Many a PhD, teacher, cop, congressperson work way harder than we do and yet they are not compensated fairly. Try standing in a hot room with 20 six year olds all day for about 30K( my kids teacher). Try working 10P-6A as a cop with Tuesday and Wednesdays off, all for 33K (my wife). Try literally living in a hole in the Kuwaiti Desert for months on end for a swell 19K per year (me). Its all relative, and no matter how many years of school you think you suffered through, life is much tougher than school. I have done both, which is why I find medical school a vacation in many respects. Lets not pretend we don't have a great deal of freedom and flexibility as a medical student. The only year you seriously have to sweat and put in the hours is 3rd year. 1st and 2nd year are more about endurance, but time is yours to make of it. 4th year is like being the king of a small country after the first 3. I do wish FM docs were paid as well as some other specialties, but its still a great living and a great life. I feel blessed.

While I agree that teaching, law enforcement, and the armed services are honorable professions, I disagree with you comparing them to medicine. I come from a long line of teachers, most of my family are teachers, and I myself used to earn extra money subbing during college. I believe pay should be commensurate to education. A soldier in the army need only be 18 years of age, so 19K is the lowest of your quoted salaries, but the job also has the lowest amount of education. A police officer has a college education, and thus gets paid more. A teacher has a year of graduate work to get his or her master's degree, and thus, should be paid at a higher level. Medical school is 4 years of graduate work, which unlike a teacher's year of grad work (which usually is paid for the the school system) COSTS upwards of 200K. THEN, a doctor must do a residency of a minimum of 3 years, working TWICE the hours a teacher works a week for the same money. Only after these additional 3 years, does a doctor earn a 100K salary, and they STILL have their debt to pay off which has now compounded with interest.

So no, doctors are not overpaid, they are underpaid compared to other professions. We have to bust our asses in residency, as I have found out during 3rd year, and for what? The financial reward just isn't there any more. Yes, the reward of helping people is truley great, but that won't help with my $1000 a month loan payments. (And if you are going to argue that pHd's spend 5-8 years in graduate school and get paid less than doctors, I agree that they are underpaid too. Just don't forget that most of them get paid to get their degree, so they don't have the debt that MD's do.)

Just my 2 cents, as a really pissed off MSIII who has caculated that it will take until I am 45 to catch up with my friends from college who went into business right after school. And that's assuming a salary of 250K after residency. And to think, when I went into med school, money was actually the farthest thing from my mind. Borrowing assloads of money can definitely jade one's outlook on things.

ProZackMI · Nov 1, 2005

debtisfun said:
While I agree that teaching, law enforcement, and the armed services are honorable professions, I disagree with you comparing them to medicine. I come from a long line of teachers, most of my family are teachers, and I myself used to earn extra money subbing during college. I believe pay should be commensurate to education. A soldier in the army need only be 18 years of age, so 19K is the lowest of your quoted salaries, but the job also has the lowest amount of education. A police officer has a college education, and thus gets paid more. A teacher has a year of graduate work to get his or her master's degree, and thus, should be paid at a higher level. Medical school is 4 years of graduate work, which unlike a teacher's year of grad work (which usually is paid for the the school system) COSTS upwards of 200K. THEN, a doctor must do a residency of a minimum of 3 years, working TWICE the hours a teacher works a week for the same money. Only after these additional 3 years, does a doctor earn a 100K salary, and they STILL have their debt to pay off which has now compounded with interest.

So no, doctors are not overpaid, they are underpaid compared to other professions. We have to bust our asses in residency, as I have found out during 3rd year, and for what? The financial reward just isn't there any more. Yes, the reward of helping people is truley great, but that won't help with my $1000 a month loan payments. (And if you are going to argue that pHd's spend 5-8 years in graduate school and get paid less than doctors, I agree that they are underpaid too. Just don't forget that most of them get paid to get their degree, so they don't have the debt that MD's do.)

Just my 2 cents, as a really pissed off MSIII who has caculated that it will take until I am 45 to catch up with my friends from college who went into business right after school. And that's assuming a salary of 250K after residency. And to think, when I went into med school, money was actually the farthest thing from my mind. Borrowing assloads of money can definitely jade one's outlook on things.

Veterinarians have 8 years of schooling, yet often make less than 70K per year. Chiros don't make much money and have DC degrees. Optometrists have to bust their butts selling and pushing optical products in order to make a good living. Attorneys have 8 years of schooling, yet often start off making less than teachers and police officers.

Of course, how many academics, especially in the humanities, have a BA, MA, and PhD (much more actual schooling than us MDs), yet make about 40K to start as an assistant professor? The simple fact is: one is paid for one's knowledge, NOT one's level of education. That is the reason why FP's make less money. PAs, NPs, internists, podiatrists, optometrists, specialists, etc., often treat the same patients and often share the knowledge FPs possess. Competition, managed health care, and increased patient awareness due to easier access to information has changed the face of medicine.

raptor5 · Nov 1, 2005

ProZackMI said:
Of course, how many academics, especially in the humanities, have a BA, MA, and PhD (much more actual schooling than us MDs), yet make about 40K to start as an assistant professor? The simple fact is: one is paid for one's knowledge, NOT one's level of education. That is the reason why FP's make less money. PAs, NPs, internists, podiatrists, optometrists, specialists, etc., often treat the same patients and often share the knowledge FPs possess. Competition, managed health care, and increased patient awareness due to easier access to information has changed the face of medicine.

Funny Guy.

ProZackMI · Nov 2, 2005

raptor5 said:
Funny Guy.

Well, debtisfun stated that "pay should be commensurate to education", and therefore, because physicians with any specialization, should make more money than other occupations with lesser education. This statement is basically saying any MD/DO is entitled to make great money because of his/her extensive education/training.

I agree, pay should be commensurate with skill/training, but the harsh reality is that this is not the case. I gave some very good examples where education and training are not commensurate with pay. A veterinarian typically has 8 years of education (4 undergrad, 4 vet). They do not usually go through a residency program, but still, 8 years of post-secondary education is nothing to laugh at, right? On average, most DVMs gross around 45-75K. Those with their own practices can make much more, but of course, they pay for their own malpractice insurance, health insurance, equipment, lab services, supplies, etc. Many new vets end up working two jobs just to pay their student loans. My ex girlfriend worked at Best Buy part-time in order to live!

Chiropractors usually have about 6 years of education (2-3 undergrad with no degree and 4 chiro). Often, they make about 25-50K per year. Some make less, some make more. It's rare you see a chiro who grosses more than 70K per year. Optometrists have 7-8 years of schooling and do not need a residency, and often make a decent living at about 70-90K per year.

Clinical psychologists with PhDs (4 undergrad, usually 2 for a master's, and then another 3-5 for a PhD, plus another 1-2 years for an APA approved internship = 9-11 years) often make crap, under 50K in some cases. Many new attorneys, or attorneys in the public sector, or legal aid sector, start off making 30-40K per year after 7-8 years of formal post-secondary schooling plus a grueling bar exam. Some even have judicial/legal clerkships (like a residency) for 1-4 years after graduating from law school and passing the bar exam. The highest paid, non-elected prosecuting attorneys usually make about 80K per year. Their job is not only stressful, but very demanding. They also have a high case load and serve the public by keeping dangerous people off the streets! Is their pay commensurate?

Now, compare that to salaries of some business executives. Some of the CEOs of major corporations only have a BA/BS degree. Some have an MBA. An MBA is 1-2 years post bachelor's. MBAs typically start off making in the 80s, going up to the millions. The CEOs of GM, Ford, and Chrysler either have undergrad business degrees or MBAs. So, they have either 4 or 6 years of schooling, yet they make more than most physicians, dentists, and attorneys. What about actors, musicians, and professional athletes? Many of them didn't even graduate from 8th grade, yet they make millions!

Cops put their lives on the line for us every day, and without overtime, how much can they reasonably expect to make a year? In a decent area, a higher ranking officer makes about, what, 70-80K? How much do firefighters make? School teachers are trying to educate our children -- our future! They make good money, but considering the importance of their job, is it commensurate? Some ***** actor can memorize some lines and look pretty on camera, yet earn millions, but some poor cop who risks his life every day dealing with the scum of the Earth makes 45K. Is that fair?

Life ain't fair. It never was, and it never will be. You made the decision to be a physician. You invested the time, money, and energy to get into med school, get your MD, pass your USMLE I and II, and endure 2-6 years of residency in order to practice medicine. You knew what you were getting into. Should you be paid well for your services? Absolutely! However, you're not entitled to jack squat. Go tell the veterinarian who works part time at Best Buy in order to pay his student loans, or the public interest lawyer who teaches English part-time at a community college that they are entitled to higher salaries due to their education and see what they say!

To make matters worse, physicians now have actual competition. Psychologists are gaining Rx privis in several states. I'm a psychiatrist. It's only a matter of time until psychiatrists make less money due to more PhD psychs with RxPs. Ophthalmologists will make less because optometrists are encroaching on their territory. NPs and PAs are encroaching on the Internists and FPs. Like I said, managed health care, expanding scopes of practices for other health care professionals, and increased patient education/savvy has had a profound impact on medicine. This is why I went to law school! 🙂

raptor5 · Nov 2, 2005

I don't agree with the debtsifun either. Saying funny guy probably wasn't the best use of words. Sorry. Trying to explain and talk about economics often times like trying to convinve people the world is round. I dislike the word "entiltle". Radiologists and many other competitive, low number, high demand specialities are not entilted to crap but they can command higher salaries due to market forces. Market forces would lead you to believe there is a surplus of family docs when you compare their salaries with other specialties. Are there? Depends who you ask and how you frame the question. Medical Economics is a complex field that often does not follow the same assumptions as most markets. E.g. You can charge as much as you like but you already agreed to accept payment from Ins. Co. and Medicaid/Medicare to accept a certain amount. They basically fix prices. As long as physicians accept the lowered rates of reimbursement they will continue to go down. The lobbying effort by physicians is poor at best when compared to other markets. This does not help either. We are also put on a moral pedistal by everyone as to not be motivated by money. I may understand how it all works but I am not so sure I know the solution. Colleagues have spent a lifetime trying to sort it out with futile results. Truth be told there is a mint of money to be made in medicine if you know how to make it. FM, IM, Peds, Psych all of them but you have to be business savvy like everyone else outside of medicine. Having 15 degrees on your wall only means you can tolerate sitting in class and regurgitate information presented to you.

chirodoc · Nov 2, 2005

"considering that places us in the top 1% in the world, the pay is pretty good. Anyone who cannot happily live off 120K per year needs to reevaluate what they want out of life and consider pursuing a career elsewhere. Many a PhD, teacher, cop, congressperson work way harder than we do and yet they are not compensated fairly. Try standing in a hot room with 20 six year olds all day for about 30K( my kids teacher). Try working 10P-6A as a cop with Tuesday and Wednesdays off, all for 33K (my wife). Try literally living in a hole in the Kuwaiti Desert for months on end for a swell 19K per year (me). Its all relative, and no matter how many years of school you think you suffered through, life is much tougher than school. I have done both, which is why I find medical school a vacation in many respects. Lets not pretend we don't have a great deal of freedom and flexibility as a medical student. The only year you seriously have to sweat and put in the hours is 3rd year. 1st and 2nd year are more about endurance, but time is yours to make of it. 4th year is like being the king of a small country after the first 3. I do wish FM docs were paid as well as some other specialties, but its still a great living and a great life. I feel blessed."

Speaking as a D.C., yes we have been voted as number 1 professional occupation with highest education and lowest pay (SLC Tribune). Not a nice distinction. I would say most D.C. clinics operate on gross revenue of $150K-250K and the docs take home is about 40%. On the other hand about 50% of the clinics fail..so go figure. If your an associate doc (like me) you get peanuts and end up scouring these boards waiting for the day you can apply to another professional program and start all over. My clinic does $20K-25K a month off my work and I get $40K year. :laugh:

Now, the above comments in my opinion were made by a MATURE person who understands all the compensation is not monetary when you are ALLOWED to practice medicine. It is a privaledge to take care of people. Having said that I understand a lot of you guys are deep in debt getting out and feel like you should be paid a ton of money. Eventually, you probably will. But it takes time.

As far as equating education to whether or not a cop/G.I. should get paid more that is plain "stuck on stupid". Nobody is shooting at you Doc and trying to kill you everyday...these guys DESERVE a ton of compensation. I don't know of a $$$ amount I will agree to to have someone shoot me. I may have a figure in mind when I start paying my student loans back. Stay tuned. :laugh:

raptor5 · Nov 2, 2005

What is really shameful about this country is that those who seem to do the least amount of good get paid the most. Pro Athletes, movie stars, music stars, and greedy CEOs (debatable). What are you going to do? It doesn't mean they are the happiest people.

Something to ponder. I also find it perplexing how w/o Physicians to prescribe drugs, drug companies would be broke but we cannot take cash gifts. In the world of advertisement I propose that I should be able to sell space on my lab coat. It's my coat. Purple pill on the back, lexapro on the sleeve, Levitra on the pocket. The least they could do is pay off my loans for prescribing their drugs.

ProZackMI · Nov 2, 2005

raptor5 said:
What is really shameful about this country is that those who seem to do the least amount of good get paid the most. Pro Athletes, movie stars, music stars, and greedy CEOs (debatable). What are you going to do? It doesn't mean they are the happiest people.

Something to ponder. I also find it perplexing how w/o Physicians to prescribe drugs, drug companies would be broke but we cannot take cash gifts. In the world of advertisement I propose that I should be able to sell space on my lab coat. It's my coat. Purple pill on the back, lexapro on the sleeve, Levitra on the pocket. The least they could do is pay off my loans for prescribing their drugs.

That was exactly my point earlier. How much real skill and training does it take to sit there, look pretty for the camera, and memorize a some lines that you didn't write? How much education, training, and true necessary skill does it take to play basketball or write a hip-hop song? Yet these idiots make millions of dollars!

How much real work does a CEO actually do? I don't know many, but from what I do know, they do the least amount of work in most companies, but make tons of money riding on the shoulders of talented execs who do the actual work (well, okay, so the bottom level workers do the actual work!).

Doctors tend to be arrogant and want to command a good salary. I know a few dentists and even a few PharmDs who make more money than some FP colleagues. I'm not an economist, and I can't understand why, but I think it's more complicated than specialty/profession. If you're an FP and earn a low salary, how much are you working? Where do you work (urban, rural, suburban?)? What kind of patients are you seeing (uneducated and unemployed inner city folks, well-to-do educated suburban professionals, geriatrics living off Social Security/Medicaid?)? A physician in urban Detroit is going to earn considerably less than one in suburban Royal Oak/Bloomfield Hills. I think it's more complicated than simply comparing specialities.

I just think it's ridiculous for anyone to say physicians deserve or are entitled to excellent compensation simply because of their education and training. Whatever happened to people going into medicine and law to HELP others? I think that's the problem with the US: too much greed. Medical school should not be as expensive as it is. In Europe, physicians are considered "inferior" to other professions, paid much less, and given much less respect by the general population. However, medical school over there also costs much less and the competition to get into programs is not as fierce. More people enter medicine over there in order to help others -- kind of like social work here in the US. You don't enter social work to make money, you do it for personal satisfaction and to help others.

If money is your only goal, drop out of medical school and get your MBA from a top school.

Newdoc2002 · Nov 2, 2005

PROZACH (nice word play) makes some good points.

My point is that we don't have to lie here and roll over while our income is eroded. We shouldn't lash ourselves about like we are greedy for wanting to be an FM doc. Good gosh, we are at the bottom of the totem pole. I could have picked a lot of other specialties and I picked the one that fit, that I would hopefully find some sastisfaction doing day after day for the next three decades. Yeah, I realize that I wouldn't make a lot of money but I've got loans to pay, an underfunded retirement and two, maybe three kids to put through college. I behind the eight ball of my peers because of my extended education and although I don't want or need to have a better car, a 4500 square foot home or a Rolex, I do need to retire, pay my god awful taxes and loans and put my kids through college.

So I don't want Medicare taking my healthcare dollar, cutting it over the next three years then give it to my local for profit hospital and a bridge to nowhere in Alaska.

Life's not fair, you're right. If in the end, your motivation is a paycheck you'll be bitter in medicine and you could do much better in business for yourself. Just don't expect me to give my money back to the USA. I should be providing for my family and giving it to purposes I see fit (church, charity, etc.).

ProZackMI · Nov 3, 2005

Newdoc2002 said:
PROZACH (nice word play) makes some good points.

My point is that we don't have to lie here and roll over while our income is eroded. We shouldn't lash ourselves about like we are greedy for wanting to be an FM doc. Good gosh, we are at the bottom of the totem pole. I could have picked a lot of other specialties and I picked the one that fit, that I would hopefully find some sastisfaction doing day after day for the next three decades. Yeah, I realize that I wouldn't make a lot of money but I've got loans to pay, an underfunded retirement and two, maybe three kids to put through college. I behind the eight ball of my peers because of my extended education and although I don't want or need to have a better car, a 4500 square foot home or a Rolex, I do need to retire, pay my god awful taxes and loans and put my kids through college.

So I don't want Medicare taking my healthcare dollar, cutting it over the next three years then give it to my local for profit hospital and a bridge to nowhere in Alaska.

Life's not fair, you're right. If in the end, your motivation is a paycheck you'll be bitter in medicine and you could do much better in business for yourself. Just don't expect me to give my money back to the USA. I should be providing for my family and giving it to purposes I see fit (church, charity, etc.).

Family Practice is not the bottom of the totem pole. Family practice is the backbone of medicine, both allopathic and osteopathic. Anyone entering medicine should do it because he/she wants to help others. Of course, money is always a factor in selecting a career, but honestly, it made me sick in medical school, and then later, in law school, to hear so many people talk about their future yachts, country club memberships, BMWs, big houses, etc. What the hell? Greedy a-holes like that become snobby, arrogant physicians and pretentious, rude, and condescending attorneys. It becomes much worse if these people attended Yale, Harvard, Stanford, or another Ive League place.

I went to a good state medical school (Michigan State University Allopathic Med), did a residency in IM and Psych, and make a decent living. I drive a new Pontiac, live in a modest condo, and wear a Timex. I don't need a BMW, Lexus, yacht, huge house, or a Rolex. The biggest problem doctors have with money is the ability to repay our loans. I think that drives us from caring about patients to caring about salary.

That's why I think medical and law schools do a great disservice to their students and the community as a whole. Medical school should NOT cost as much as it does to attend. As a society, we should want more people to become physicians. Medical school should be more affordable. If it were, health care costs would be reduced significantly.

Actually, in some ways, the Europeans do a much better job in producing good doctors. In Germany, for example, after undergraduate training, the first two years of medical school are spent learning clincial medicine rather than basic sciences. No biochem, no micro, none of the basic stuff med students here take their first two years. It's assumed you know this stuff, or it's simply not considered as important to the practice of medicine. You learn clinical the first two years, then the last year or two you do hands-on assessments, etc., like clerkships here. There are only residencies for certain specialities. Their education is more practical, less demanding financially, and less demanding time wise.

If you think about, most vets, dentists, podiatrists, nurses, optometrists, and pharmacists, don't go through a residency and they do just fine once they learn the basic ropes of practice. Their education provides them with the skills and tools necessary to be competent practitioners, yet in medicine, even an FP must go through residency. Is it really necessary?

Food for thought.

cooldreams · Nov 5, 2005

health care costs reduced significantly through lower school tuition?? youre joking right?? 100billion vs 480million .... no comparison dood.

in europe, docs are not as respected as they are here. its odd. like, take engineers here and docs here, and reverse the public opinion of them, money, etc... and that is kinda how europe is. docs have trouble finding jobs over there...

residency issue... well... you could still look at it like, in residency you are getting paid about as much as a nurse or other staff member, and you can normally not have to start paying off loans yet in fp/im/etc 3 yr res... so in that respect its right in line with what you want right? 😀

it was my understanding that that the AMA limited the amount of medical schools to allow docs to earn more... this was before powerful hmos...

raptor5 · Nov 5, 2005

Private schools charge what they want based on what the market will tolerate. Look at MSU and Colorado out of state tuition. It is rape. Schools are just as greedy but people will apply to them and pay the price. Here in PA even the state schools are in the mid 20s. I like TX and OK, below 10K. I do not think that an overall lowering of healthcare costs will effect tuition at all. The only thing that would lower tuition is state/federal regulation, which is a no no for private schools, or schools having unfilled spots (not gonna happen). Med schools are business first and center for higher eduation second. Public opinion is worthless b/c the public already thinks docs make too much. Tuition will depend on many other factors such as donations and the ability of the research areas to obtain grants. Some schools are just so poorly ran that they need to charge more to compensate for inefficient management.

andwhat · Nov 5, 2005

ProZackMI said:
Family Practice is not the bottom of the totem pole. Family practice is the backbone of medicine, both allopathic and osteopathic. Anyone entering medicine should do it because he/she wants to help others. Of course, money is always a factor in selecting a career, but honestly, it made me sick in medical school, and then later, in law school, to hear so many people talk about their future yachts, country club memberships, BMWs, big houses, etc. What the hell? Greedy a-holes like that become snobby, arrogant physicians and pretentious, rude, and condescending attorneys. It becomes much worse if these people attended Yale, Harvard, Stanford, or another Ive League place.

I went to a good state medical school (Michigan State University Allopathic Med), did a residency in IM and Psych, and make a decent living. I drive a new Pontiac, live in a modest condo, and wear a Timex. I don't need a BMW, Lexus, yacht, huge house, or a Rolex. The biggest problem doctors have with money is the ability to repay our loans. I think that drives us from caring about patients to caring about salary.

That's why I think medical and law schools do a great disservice to their students and the community as a whole. Medical school should NOT cost as much as it does to attend. As a society, we should want more people to become physicians. Medical school should be more affordable. If it were, health care costs would be reduced significantly.

Actually, in some ways, the Europeans do a much better job in producing good doctors. In Germany, for example, after undergraduate training, the first two years of medical school are spent learning clincial medicine rather than basic sciences. No biochem, no micro, none of the basic stuff med students here take their first two years. It's assumed you know this stuff, or it's simply not considered as important to the practice of medicine. You learn clinical the first two years, then the last year or two you do hands-on assessments, etc., like clerkships here. There are only residencies for certain specialities. Their education is more practical, less demanding financially, and less demanding time wise.

If you think about, most vets, dentists, podiatrists, nurses, optometrists, and pharmacists, don't go through a residency and they do just fine once they learn the basic ropes of practice. Their education provides them with the skills and tools necessary to be competent practitioners, yet in medicine, even an FP must go through residency. Is it really necessary?""

you must mean that even a psychiatrist must go through residency correct? no offense though.

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