It's Time to Get Recognized

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sickofwaiting1

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Note: This was sent to me and many of my other classmates. Hopefully it will reach all osteopathic physicians and start some change.


My Fellow Osteopathic Medical Students,



Since my last message a few months ago, I have received various emails regarding changing the name of our degree. The majority of the emails I received spoke favorably of a degree change. In addition, the subject has also been discussed a great deal in the February edition of The DO Magazine. If you have not read the article, I urge you to read it now:



https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0208dodegree.pdf



Many students have posted on the AOA President’s blog and elsewhere their opinions regarding the issue, yet few have come up with any actual plan to bring about a change. To initiate this process, I have set up an online petition. It is requesting the AOA to perform an official investigation on the matter by conducting a vote amongst osteopathic medical students and practicing osteopathic physicians.

The petition itself does not endorse MD,DO over MDO or vice versa. Rather, it only asks that the AOA address this issue and have the osteopathic community vote on it. Regardless of which name change you favor, now is the time for all of us to unify for the sake of getting this out into the open.

Once a substantial number of signatures are entered, the petition will be submitted to the AOA. In an attempt to give this survey some form of legitimacy, I ask that students sign using their respective school addresses. The petition can be signed such that it is publicly displayed as ANONYMOUS yet the specific information will still be able to be viewed by the AOA upon submission. Signatures can only be submitted once per computer.



http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/DO-Degree-Change



For those of you that support changing the degree, I urge you to put some effort into this. It is, after all, your future and your profession. To help get this process started:

Sign the petition with a school email address
Send this message to DO students at other schools or send me any collective school-wide email addresses so that I can inform as many people as possible and give them the option to get involved.
Things are moving in the right direction, nobody would have predicted a magazine cover story regarding a degree change years ago, but things are changing.


Some state that with time the public will become aware of what a DO is. The osteopathic profession has had over a century to “get the word out” and it is apparent that a new approach is necessary.



Sincerely,



The Osteopathic Revolution



[email protected]
 
why do people care so much?
 
I love how the "osteopathic revolution" has a hotmail email address.
 
Doesn't this petition go against everything in this entire forum? You know, all the stuff about how people choose DO schools over MDs school because they want to be a different kind of doctor?
 
SickOfLaw said:
Doesn't this petition go against everything in this entire forum? You know, all the stuff about how people choose DO schools over MDs school because they want to be a different kind of doctor?
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That's not why people in this forum do DO. Look for a recent post asking why people went DO vs. MD and the majority, maybe 75%, said because DO=MD.

Edit: that said, all this MDO nonsense fixes absolutely NOTHING that's wrong or weak about osteopathic medicine.
 
I liked what NYCOM's VP Dr. Ross-Lee said "We keep trying to be like "them", but we don't have to be like them".

I was a little upset about the NJ Dr who supposedly couldn't get hired because he was a DO. Osteopathic doctors shouldn't denounce their degree because there being discriminated against. They should fight it, not join those who are discriminating.
 
paramediclizard said:
Or our healthcare system...
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Easy there, trigger, stay on the page. Looking to the tiny governing body of osteopathic medicine to change federal health care policy is way out of scope. If the AOA was spending time and money lobbying for universal health care, I'd be proud, but I'd also be very disturbed that the problems OWNED by the AOA weren't being addressed instead. Not that they're being addressed now with any aggression, but that was my original point.
 
DrMidlife said:
That's not why people in this forum do DO. Look for a recent post asking why people went DO vs. MD and the majority, maybe 75%, said because DO=MD.
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Sorry to bring this up, but the claim the "DO=MD" gives everybody in the world the ammunition to retort that "in that case, a DO degree is merely an MD with lower entrance standards". And then bootstrap the silly idea that entrance requirements correlate directly with doctor quality, reaching the conclusion that DOs are lesser doctors rather than different doctors.

And with this country's obsession with rankings, if DO=MD, then there will soon be a two tier system, with DO schools being the "lower tier" medical schools and the MD schools being the "top tier".

If a DO is treated as the exact same as an MD, then the only way of differentiating between the two programs becomes hard statistics like GPA, MCAT, residency placement etc. And that's a battle the DOs can't win right now.
 
DrMidlife said:
That's not why people in this forum do DO. Look for a recent post asking why people went DO vs. MD and the majority, maybe 75%, said because DO=MD.

Edit: that said, all this MDO nonsense fixes absolutely NOTHING that's wrong or weak about osteopathic medicine.
Click to expand...

Could you elaborate about this?
 
I don't know how others feel but I am proud to be a DO, well in 4 years that is. I'm not going to hide my degree because it is who I am and it is a great accomplishment to be going to an osteopathic medical school. It's what I earned, not some other title. What will MDO change? It's still not 'MD' and it looks like some typo at the end. Still looks confusing to me and patients will be just as curious about the extra "O" at the end.

My thoughts, a lot of those wanting a change are ashamed of their degree. I can understand if a long practicing DO wants to make a change because they've experience some of the things that have gone on. But it really pisses me off when some pre-med or student comes in and stirs the pot, wanting to change the entire profession. Earn the degree, get some years under your belt and then voice your opinion. Funny how pre-meds know what it is like to be a DO and how hard it is to face all that discrimination. If you don't want any trouble, go MD.

Just my opinion. I respect the D.O. degree and most importantly, I respect myself. I don't need an added "MD" to feel some self worth or get some recognition. Really if some punk talks down to me because I'm a DO, I'm just going to have to kick their ***. Ninja style. ha!
 
Omashu said:
I liked what NYCOM's VP Dr. Ross-Lee said "We keep trying to be like "them", but we don't have to be like them".
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This really isn't practical or even feasible, in most situations, in our modern health care system. OMM was developed when there really wasn't a "standard of care" for many or most medical problems. Therefore, OMM was just another way to treat certain problems. Today, there is typically one best way or maybe a couple of the best ways to treat almost everything. Like it or not, OMM has not been incorporated into these standards and has been mostly relagated to the treatment of chronic or minor acute problems.

Another issue is the time factor. For instance, I'm an osteopathic graduate in an allopathic EM residency. I'll see a minor, acute low back pain from time to time where OMM might be indicated. However, I simply don't have the extra time it would take to treat the patient in a manner worthy of my training. The ER is busy and I need to constantly dispo and pick up new patients. I rarely eat while on shift. I'm sorry, but I'm going to start eating before I start taking time to do OMM.
 
Doc Henry said:
Could you elaborate about this?
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5 issues off the top of my head (I can do 5 for the AMA just as easily):

1. Other than family practice, there is a shortage of osteopathic residencies, worsening with increased number of DO students.
2. ...and very poor location choices for osteopathic residencies.
3. Either stop claiming primary care focus or drop tuition; can't have it both ways
4. Still unfunded and weak on research efforts, although this is improving
5. 60% of DOs match ACGME. So what? DOs can't compete in both DO and ACGME match because if you match DO you're dropped from ACGME. So what? Further reinforces flow of DOs to non-DO residencies. Lather, rinse, repeat.
 
DrMidlife said:
5 issues off the top of my head (I can do 5 for the AMA just as easily):

1. Other than family practice, there is a shortage of osteopathic residencies, worsening with increased number of DO students.
2. ...and very poor location choices for osteopathic residencies.
3. Either stop claiming primary care focus or drop tuition; can't have it both ways
4. Still unfunded and weak on research efforts, although this is improving
5. 60% of DOs match ACGME. So what? DOs can't compete in both DO and ACGME match because if you match DO you're dropped from ACGME. So what? Further reinforces flow of DOs to non-DO residencies. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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Gotcha. You know whats funny, I think the reason I didn't immediately think of this is because I've kind of stopped thinking of DO as different than MD. I guess I sort of ignore the whole "primary care focus" and all that other stuff...not on purpose, its just that I am so focused on getting in to any med school right now, I haven't thought as much about the differences. I am sure I will give much more thought to it when I have interviews.

One thing that has been bothering me is the bad name OMM gets. Like anything else, it has its limits, but it is a great tool!
 
VALSALVA said:
Another issue is the time factor. For instance, I'm an osteopathic graduate in an allopathic EM residency. I'll see a minor, acute low back pain from time to time where OMM might be indicated. However, I simply don't have the extra time it would take to treat the patient in a manner worthy of my training. The ER is busy and I need to constantly dispo and pick up new patients. I rarely eat while on shift. I'm sorry, but I'm going to start eating before I start taking time to do OMM.
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That sucks
 
Doc Henry said:
That sucks
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Really, it doesn't. It's fun and often challenging. I wouldn't have it any other way. It is what it is...you know? Plus, it's a great way to manage your weight (not eating and lots of moving).
 
One man's opinion on the degree change topic: as long as D.O. schools are less selective than allopathic schools, osteopathic medicine is always going to be at a disadvantage in public opinion. The name of the degree is not the central issue. Until the osteopathic community and D.O. schools figure out a way to market osteopathy as a vaibale and important discipline to the most competitive medical school applicants and raise the profile of osteopathy through research, there will always be some perceived discrepancy (just or unjust) in the world at large.

Bottom line is that we all know that a whole lot of students who can't go allopathic for academic reasons wind up going to osteopathic schools. Many of them turn out to be great physicians, but until the notion of osteopathy as a fall back is eliminated, it doesn't matter what you call the degree.
 
The more I think about this, the less I care. I know so many successful DO attendings and residents, and I work at a pretty significant allopathic teaching hospital. Maybe when I move to another setting, I'll see all this DO discrmination everyone keeps talking about. Until then, I'll be happy and content, here in my DO-friendly bubble.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
I know so many successful DO attendings and residents, and I work at a pretty significant allopathic teaching hospital. Maybe when I move to another setting, I'll see all this DO discrmination everyone keeps talking about.
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Likewise. 👍
 
People who are familiar with medicine all know very successful D.O.s. Outside of medicine (and outside of the hospital environment) it seems to me that patients think there is a significant difference. That's what the name change thing was supposed to be about. D.O.s don't need to convince most people here in this forum. They may need to convince people who are choosing a PCP though.
 
honestly MDO still looks different than MD so there will still be a stigma. I like DO, and Im proud to soon have that degree.. so I wont do this petition..
 
I know everyone's opinion counts, but it seems that the biggest advocates of a degree change are pre-DO and DO students who have not experienced life in the true medical community as a practicing DO? I hate to believe that the only reason that pre-DO and DO students are fighting so hard is in hopes to become more similar to MDs, purely based on a change in the degree. As someone else mentioned, MDO still looks different from MD and the past century of past physicians who worked so hard to uphold the DO reputation will be lost? I hope all of you who are fighting so hard for a name change realize that this will be a step back and our identity will be further distorted and unrecognizeable. Trust me...changing our degree won't improve our reputation in the medical community and the public, it'll look foolish.
 
Is there a link to a site where I can sign a petition to kill this petition?? I think I'm on the same boat as Tex now and I must admit that it feels nice. I used to kick open the saloon doors with six shooters blazing whenever an 'MD vs DO', 'can a DO ...', or 'name change topic' displayed it's ugly troll head. I pwned a lot of extremely misinformed 18 year olds, made some people laugh, but most of all I realized the absurd nature of this subject.

These discussions go the same way everytime: Untrue stereotype about the DO degree --> pre DOs explode --> pre MDs say more stupid things --> older DOs tell the pre DO to chill out --> they don't --> locked. The identical nature of these discussions (for lack of a better term) eventually made me realize that ... it absolutely did NOT matter, and I really shouldn't care.

What most people struggle to realize is that the people who spew this crap are normally 19 year old world of warcraft fans who know for a fact that people are judged by the combined gpa/mcat score, and, through thier vast experiences, know for a fact that osteopathic medical schools are second rate institutions that produce inferior physicians. They assume that the average person would have a problem seeing a DO based on this knowledge (that everyone possesses), and make laughable comments in these threads accordingly.

So what is the truth of the matter? The fact is that 20% of Americans don't graduate high school and, of the majority that does, only 25% of people obtain a bachelors. Now, what we are doing here is taking the fraction of the percent of people in America who graduate high school, work their fingers to the bone in undergrad, take the MCAT, apply to medical school, graduate medical school, and complete a residency and are trying to sign a petition to change the letters on a piece of paper that you receive after 16 years of education??? Does the experience, journey, and hard-work mean nothing compared to what the technical title received at the end? If that doesn't put a perspective on how foolish this topic is ... I don't know what will. Now, I know people will say: 'JaggerPlate, after working that hard for 16 years I want the MD behind my name. You suck.' When addressed in that manner I personally suggest that you double check your reasons for going into medicine in the first place.

In the US if you want to be a fully licensed physician, capable of practicing in any field of medicine or surgery ... obtaining a degree is osteopathic medicine is a great option. If you really want to help people, or have an urge to learn and continually grow as a doctor, osteopathic and allopathic medicine are two separate, but similiar, routes to achieveing this goal. Regardless of the letters on your white lab coat, we have achieved, or are in the process of achieveing, something that few do. It is an honor to be a physician, and I would never want to sign a petition to have something I bled for blurred or altered in anyway.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Is there a link to a site where I can sign a petition to kill this petition?? I think I'm on the same boat as Tex now and I must admit that it feels nice. I used to kick open the saloon doors with six shooters blazing whenever an 'MD vs DO', 'can a DO ...', or 'name change topic' displayed it's ugly troll head. I pwned a lot of extremely misinformed 18 year olds, made some people laugh, but most of all I realized the absurd nature of this subject.

These discussions go the same way everytime: Untrue stereotype about the DO degree --> pre DOs explode --> pre MDs say more stupid things --> older DOs tell the pre DO to chill out --> they don't --> locked. The identical nature of these discussions (for lack of a better term) eventually made me realize that ... it absolutely did NOT matter, and I really shouldn't care.

What most people struggle to realize is that the people who spew this crap are normally 19 year old world of warcraft fans who know for a fact that people are judged by the combined gpa/mcat score, and, through thier vast experiences, know for a fact that osteopathic medical schools are second rate institutions that produce inferior physicians. They assume that the average person would have a problem seeing a DO based on this knowledge (that everyone possesses), and make laughable comments in these threads accordingly.

So what is the truth of the matter? The fact is that 20% of Americans don't graduate high school and, of the majority that does, only 25% of people obtain a bachelors. Now, what we are doing here is taking the fraction of the percent of people in America who graduate high school, work their fingers to the bone in undergrad, take the MCAT, apply to medical school, graduate medical school, and complete a residency and are trying to sign a petition to change the letters on a piece of paper that you receive after 16 years of education??? If that doesn't put a perspective on how foolish this topic is ... I don't know what will. Now, I know people will say: 'JaggerPlate, after working that hard for 16 years I want the MD behind my name. You suck.' When addressed in that manner I personally suggest that you double check your reasons for going into medicine in the first place.

In the US if you want to be a fully licensed physician, capable of practicing in any field of medicine or surgery ... obtaining a degree is osteopathic medicine is a great option. If you really want to help people, or have an urge to learn and continually grow as a doctor, osteopathic and allopathic medicine are two separate, but similiar, routes to achieveing this goal. Regardless of the letters on your white lab coat. We have achieved, or are in the process of achieveing, something that few do. It is an honor to be a physician, and I would never want to sign a petition to have something I bleed for decades to achieve blurred or altered in anyway.
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Might I inquire as to the whereabouts of the sign-up sheet for the "Official JaggerPlate Fan Club"? 😎
 
Pghboy18 said:
One man's opinion on the degree change topic: as long as D.O. schools are less selective than allopathic schools, osteopathic medicine is always going to be at a disadvantage in public opinion. The name of the degree is not the central issue. Until the osteopathic community and D.O. schools figure out a way to market osteopathy as a vaibale and important discipline to the most competitive medical school applicants and raise the profile of osteopathy through research, there will always be some perceived discrepancy (just or unjust) in the world at large.

Bottom line is that we all know that a whole lot of students who can't go allopathic for academic reasons wind up going to osteopathic schools. Many of them turn out to be great physicians, but until the notion of osteopathy as a fall back is eliminated, it doesn't matter what you call the degree.
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"The Public" at large had no idea what the MCAT is and has at a best a vague idea of the admission standards for various schools and the application requirements. They just know it's "hard" to become a doctor (to quote the lay person who I just shared a shuttle ride with to the airport).

People just know that when they're sick they want someone with the highest level of expertise taking care of them, which usually means "MD" in most people's minds because they don't know about DO (or they feel that OMM is quackery).
 
This petition isn't about making us the same as MD's; it's about gaining the respect we deserve as physicians.

People don't know who we are. The general public doesn't have any idea what a DO is and if they need a doctor, they are going to look up an MD in the phonebook. If they search for doctors online in a search and their degree has DO next to it and right above it there is an MD, who do you really think they are going to choose?

Now obviously if you live right around an area where there is an osteopathic school, this might be less of an issue, however the general public does not understand what a DO is.

The reason is awful public relations. I'm not ashamed of becoming a DO, I'm ashamed of the piss poor job the AOA has done to make becoming a DO easier and respectable in the eyes of the rest of the United States. I'm upset that I don't have as many residency opportunities, that I'll have to take the USMLE's AND the COMLEX exams to broaden my chances of getting into the speciality I want and I'm really upset that about the fact that I have to learn twice as much information in the same amount of time as allopathic students and still get less respect for it.

Yes, I'll be a doctor after I'm done. I feel I deserve the same amount of chances and respect from the rest of the medical field for going to an osteopathic school and quite frankly, that is not how it is right now.

Will getting the name changed from DO to MDO change anything? I have no idea. But if it gets the attention of the AOA to do something positive about the current situation, which I don't think anyone can say is level with the allopathic world, then it's something.
 
MOTHER****lNG STOP SAYING DO=MD
 
VALSALVA said:
Really, it doesn't. It's fun and often challenging. I wouldn't have it any other way. It is what it is...you know? Plus, it's a great way to manage your weight (not eating and lots of moving).
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I didn't mean it sucks to be busy. I just meant it sucks that you can't use a tool that could be helpful
 
sickofwaiting1 said:
This petition isn't about making us the same as MD's; it's about gaining the respect we deserve as physicians.
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Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen until DO entrance requirements are equal to MD entrance requirements. While DO schools continue admitting students with MCATs and GPAs lower than MD schools, it's not going to happen. And not while they still teach OMM - the general public doesn't buy the bone-crunching stuff (even if it isn't bone-crunching, but the general public thinks it is). OMM reduces the stature of the DO. Not trying to bust on DOs, but these days when even the most ******ed Average Joe knows enough science to know that OMM is real similar to what chiropractors do, OMM isn't an "added bonus" in the eyes of the regular guy.

It's that simple. No disrespect to DOs. Just relaying what regular people think.
 
I don't really care to get into MD vs DO too much, but I think that saying the entrance requirements are lower is miss-informed (the requirements are generally the same for MD and DO with some exceptions) if the only thing schools cared about was MCAT/GPA this would be true. But I think DO school admissions are looking for more things than just those two factors (just like MD schools but the two have different priorities) if not then other students with higher MCAT and/or GPA scores would have gotten into schools I got into over me but I have seen people with higher scores who didn't get accepted or were put on hold. I think DO schools could easily work to up their averages, but are genuinely trying to find a good fit.

After taking the MCAT I have realized that a few point differences are probably not significantly different in reflecting ability. I applied in the same application cycle as a friend of mine who got a lower score than me on the same practice MCAT and then pulled off an MCAT two point higher than me when we took different exams. I have seen that there's a range of at least a few points where people could be considered equal, and I hope ADCOMS know that as well. So if DO schools had an overall average of a 27 MCAT and MD schools had an average of 30 they are really pretty close to the same thing. I bet the MD schools just have a wider range of scores than DO.

I don't know how I feel about changing the initials; I think the only valid argument for it is to differentiate U.S. DOs from foreign DOs who are not qualified to be physicians so that I can practice wherever I want and not have an issue.
 
Doc Henry said:
I didn't mean it sucks to be busy. I just meant it sucks that you can't use a tool that could be helpful
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So is the life of a DO in the REAL WORLD...unless you actually do OMM for a living or are one of a baker's dozen FP's who occasionally whip out the manipulation.
 
GreenShirt said:
"The Public" at large had no idea what the MCAT is and has at a best a vague idea of the admission standards for various schools and the application requirements. They just know it's "hard" to become a doctor (to quote the lay person who I just shared a shuttle ride with to the airport).

People just know that when they're sick they want someone with the highest level of expertise taking care of them, which usually means "MD" in most people's minds because they don't know about DO (or they feel that OMM is quackery).
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If they don't know what a DO is, how can they conclude that OMM is quackery??? Wouldn't you have to know a DO to make that conclusion??? How else would one know about OMM???
 
This is SDN. We don't actually need to know anything to draw a conclusion, and we don't necessarily have to even make sense. I would have thought you'd know this guideline by now.
 
SickOfLaw said:
Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen until DO entrance requirements are equal to MD entrance requirements.
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the requirements are identical. with the exceptions of specific schools (both MD/DO) that have there own extra requirements like Genetics or Biochemistry.

SickOfLaw said:
While DO schools continue admitting students with MCATs and GPAs lower than MD schools, it's not going to happen.
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having a lower GPA and/or MCAT does not make you inferior. furthermore, NOBODY knows (or cares) what your GPA was or what you got on your MCAT. this is not causing the "lack of respect" from the "regular people" that you speak of. sorry.

SickOfLaw said:
And not while they still teach OMM - the general public doesn't buy the bone-crunching stuff (even if it isn't bone-crunching, but the general public thinks it is). OMM reduces the stature of the DO. Not trying to bust on DOs, but these days when even the most ******ed Average Joe knows enough science to know that OMM is real similar to what chiropractors do, OMM isn't an "added bonus" in the eyes of the regular guy.

It's that simple. No disrespect to DOs. Just relaying what regular people think.
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stop saying things like "no disrespect" or "not trying to bust on DOs." you clearly have a problem with osteopathic education. look at your last post on the thread that got closed down (likely b/c of your ridiculous posts). if you can't stand osteopathic medicine, then get out of the osteopathic forum.

OMM doens't reduce the stature of the DO.....most don't even use it.

Quit speaking for "the regular guy" and "regular people." i konw that you love to talk to one or two people and then jump to generalizeed conclusions, but thats not how it works.
 
SickOfLaw said:
Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen until DO entrance requirements are equal to MD entrance requirements. While DO schools continue admitting students with MCATs and GPAs lower than MD schools, it's not going to happen. And not while they still teach OMM - the general public doesn't buy the bone-crunching stuff (even if it isn't bone-crunching, but the general public thinks it is). OMM reduces the stature of the DO. Not trying to bust on DOs, but these days when even the most ******ed Average Joe knows enough science to know that OMM is real similar to what chiropractors do, OMM isn't an "added bonus" in the eyes of the regular guy.

It's that simple. No disrespect to DOs. Just relaying what regular people think.
Click to expand...

I like how you spew verbal diarrhea and claim its a gourmet meal....you, my friend, have a special icon here on SDN -----> :bullcrap:
 
Listen everyone here needs to chill out. I think the main point of this petition is to mainly include the term medical into our intitals. As of now it does not. As of right now a D.O. cant even refer to himself/herself as an medical doctor of oseteopathy without taking a risk in a law suit. I am from the south which is Louisiana where we have fewer than 200 D.O.'s practicing in our whole state. We are at the bottom of the toldeum poles when it comes to pure population vs D.O. docs ratio. When I decided that I wanted to first go to med school. I didnt even know what a D.O. was. Considering I live in a metropolitan area with a population of nearly 400,000 people (not New Orleans nor Baton Rouge) and my city has less then 10 D.O.s practicing in the whole city should tell you something.

Needless to say us people in the south just dont have any idea of what D.O.'s even are. I know most you people out there are probably in very friendly D.O. states, but not Louisisana. It wasnt even until 2005 did D.O.'s in Louisiana finally have all the same rights and privillages as their M.D. counterparts. If you dont believe me then look up the AOA board for the state of louisiana and see legislative issues. Its right there and you cant miss it. I will also tell you that my girlfriend of nearly six years parents both work in health care. Her father is an oncolgy pharmacist that is the assitent dean of the pharmacy school down here. He works at the LSU medical school and rounds with the all the oncology (cancer) doctors and aids in their decisions to prescribe medicine. Her mother is a physical therapist who works at a hosipital, and when I first asked both of them if they knew what a D.O. was, they had to pause a minute to think about it and then her mother finally told me that she thinks it is a osteopathic doctor. Her husband was confused at first about that term, but after thinking about it he realized that he actually knows one D.O. doc and said he is great. I asked both of my parents and neither one of them knew what a D.O. was and neither of them have ever even heard of such a doctor. My dads response was that he thought maybe a D.O. was an optometrist (OD) and my moms first response was a chiropractor (DC).

My point is many of us in the south (arkansas, mississippi, louisiana, and alabama) do not even know what a D.O. is and that adding the term medical to the name might make it easier to your everyday patient as to what your cridentials actually are. That way when you are 10 -15 years out of school you wont have to spend 1/3 of your daily time always educating your patients on your cridentials and so on. Most doctors really cant afford that luxury. Think about it, I know you will say that you wouldn't mind doing this as of right now, and that you would actually love to do this b/c it would be educating the public about D.O.'s. But when you have to do it everyday day after day dayin and day out, then it could get a bit old and tiering over time. Dont you think so? Anyways, I am not trying to start something here I just want people to realize that not everywhere in this country do people even know what a D.O. is. Nor have they even heard of one. I myself am planning on applying only to D.O. schools, and quite frankly dont care what intials are after my name, b/c the only thing that matters is to me at the end of the day is what I am doing with my life and its about what makes me most happy. I would say we would all agree to that. Plus I myself plan on going into primary care and working in rural areas of louisiana b/c god knows we need it. 🙂🙂🙂
 
Off the thread here for a second, don't feed the troll. In a way this comic (don't click on it if you are offended by expletives/foul language) represent him/her somewhat. From forum admin experience, I believe there might be an option for restricting access someone has to a particular section of a forum.

Back on topic though...here in Georgia, my pre-medical program did not make us aware of the option of Osteopathic medicine. All that I had known was the allopathic side, but as I put some time into researching what it was about, I developed a liking to the philosophy that it proferred to me and the populace in general. My feeling, even though I have no major basis of experience or great standing in the DO branch, is that the public at large is not well-informed on the matter. The DO that I had shadowed had told me that in practice the initials do not matter and it is the individual reputation of the physician that matters. I am on the fence as to leaving it as DO or changing it to MDO (MD-O?), but in the effort to take an opinion I would lean towards the MDO designation. It is my belief that appearances (unfortunately) matter in the world. Public perception is easily swayed over seemingly mindless trivialities, and thus having an MDO initial would at least calm the rock solid (voluntary/involuntary) ignorance of the masses.

I won't be signing the petition though, as I believe I still have alot to learn. One can never know too much, but can indeed know so little.
 
Before this "discussion" gets locked up (as it's bound to be sooner or later) I'll weigh in on it. If enough people want to change the degree badly enough that they are willing to pay for a real survey among licensed DOs, then I say go for it. Instead of asking for votes, get people to put their money where there mouth is. Send in a donation and contribute to a campaign that asks licensed DOs if they want to change their degree.

First, it really isn't fair to ask the AOA to pay for it because there are a lot of things that they need to spend money on before they put anything toward this silly argument. Second, pre-meds and students don't get to vote because they aren't DOs yet. They haven't paid their dues, so to speak, so they don't deserve a vote. After they become DOs, THEN they can do anything they want and whine just as hard as they please. I don't even get a vote because I don't deserve it yet.

I doubt you'll have very many DOs even respond, but if you get a majority to say OK (whatever the number is, 30,000 or so) then I'm all for it. I don't think you'll get a thousand...maybe a couple of hundred if you're lucky. But, I could be wrong. Go ahead and prove me wrong. Use your hard earned dollars and show the world that putting an "M" in the degree designation is worth it. If you really want to change things, then show me. Don't tell me any more about it-- show me. Prove me wrong!
 
I agree that the way to proceed with this is with a well constructed survey of licensed DOs. Pre-DO and DO students can and have exhausted the debate about the theoretical or emotional side of this argument (ie pride in the DO degree, recognition, etc.), but I think the much more important issue is whether a change in the letters would mean anything practically. This is a question that students who have yet to see their first patient are hardly in a position to answer.

While I have my own emotional response to this issue, if a survey showed that a majority of practicing DOs supported this change because they felt that it would make a significant difference in their practice of medicine, I would definitely be open to rethinking my position.
 
SickOfLaw said:
Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen until DO entrance requirements are equal to MD entrance requirements.
Click to expand...

So who has more respect, a caribbean MD or a DO? Because I know for damn sure entrance to a DO school is much much harder than getting into any carribean med school.
 
DOs are already recognized. That's why we are fully licensed physicians. Worrying about initials really is kinda stupid.
 
Pghboy18 said:
D.O.s don't need to convince most people here in this forum. They may need to convince people who are choosing a PCP though.
Click to expand...

Common pre-med misconception. Nobody flips through the phone book and picks a doctor at random based on their name. Doctors get their patients through referrals.
 
J1515 said:
Common pre-med misconception. Nobody flips through the phone book and picks a doctor at random based on their name. Doctors get their patients through referrals.
Click to expand...

Or by picking a name from a list off their HMO preferred provider list, or by seeing them in the ED, or by asking a co-worker/friend/family member who they have seen and liked...

None of these have to do with the phone book.

I would venture to guess, very few patient visits are due to someone picking up the phone book and cold-calling an office.

Of course, I don't work in an office, so I may be wrong on this point. It just seems somewhat counter-intuitive.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
The more I think about this, the less I care. I know so many successful DO attendings and residents, and I work at a pretty significant allopathic teaching hospital. Maybe when I move to another setting, I'll see all this DO discrmination everyone keeps talking about. Until then, I'll be happy and content, here in my DO-friendly bubble.
Click to expand...

I second that👍
 
JaggerPlate said:
Is there a link to a site where I can sign a petition to kill this petition?? I think I'm on the same boat as Tex now and I must admit that it feels nice. I used to kick open the saloon doors with six shooters blazing whenever an 'MD vs DO', 'can a DO ...', or 'name change topic' displayed it's ugly troll head. I pwned a lot of extremely misinformed 18 year olds, made some people laugh, but most of all I realized the absurd nature of this subject.

These discussions go the same way everytime: Untrue stereotype about the DO degree --> pre DOs explode --> pre MDs say more stupid things --> older DOs tell the pre DO to chill out --> they don't --> locked. The identical nature of these discussions (for lack of a better term) eventually made me realize that ... it absolutely did NOT matter, and I really shouldn't care.

What most people struggle to realize is that the people who spew this crap are normally 19 year old world of warcraft fans who know for a fact that people are judged by the combined gpa/mcat score, and, through thier vast experiences, know for a fact that osteopathic medical schools are second rate institutions that produce inferior physicians. They assume that the average person would have a problem seeing a DO based on this knowledge (that everyone possesses), and make laughable comments in these threads accordingly.

So what is the truth of the matter? The fact is that 20% of Americans don't graduate high school and, of the majority that does, only 25% of people obtain a bachelors. Now, what we are doing here is taking the fraction of the percent of people in America who graduate high school, work their fingers to the bone in undergrad, take the MCAT, apply to medical school, graduate medical school, and complete a residency and are trying to sign a petition to change the letters on a piece of paper that you receive after 16 years of education??? Does the experience, journey, and hard-work mean nothing compared to what the technical title received at the end? If that doesn't put a perspective on how foolish this topic is ... I don't know what will. Now, I know people will say: 'JaggerPlate, after working that hard for 16 years I want the MD behind my name. You suck.' When addressed in that manner I personally suggest that you double check your reasons for going into medicine in the first place.

In the US if you want to be a fully licensed physician, capable of practicing in any field of medicine or surgery ... obtaining a degree is osteopathic medicine is a great option. If you really want to help people, or have an urge to learn and continually grow as a doctor, osteopathic and allopathic medicine are two separate, but similiar, routes to achieveing this goal. Regardless of the letters on your white lab coat, we have achieved, or are in the process of achieveing, something that few do. It is an honor to be a physician, and I would never want to sign a petition to have something I bled for blurred or altered in anyway.
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God I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!🙂🙂😀😀👍
 
How about signing the petition just to stick it to the AOA who still REFUSE to listen to medical students concerns about issues like residencies, osteopathic internships, separate matches, two board exams, high tuition. If they will not listen to us under those issues then maybe a small insignificant issue like a degree change will help springboard student influence. They cant possibly ignore a combined dissenting voice of a majory of osteopathic medical students but on the second thought they probably will. 100% of the students can sign this and the AOA will just say "so what"....
 
Good thread (not in it's entirety) related to topic:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=264771

Is part of the issue the reported "ineffective nature" of the AOA - and could that be contributing to the "ground swell" supporting a degree modification for DOs and the idea of better representation? Would it not be realistic to think that with more AMA support for osteopathic physicians, DOs will be more loyal to the AMA down the road? Maybe some sort of merger is planned in-light of the ongoing "lack of action status" of the AOA? Seems like the AMA might be pushing to bring DOs into their "fold"; maybe the AMA is trying to swallow the AOA and the AOA is trying desperately to exist? Of course, the "hypocrisy" (for lack of a better word) preventing allos from matching into AOA residencies (among other things) would have to cease, but that's jumping the gun.

My real question is the actual source of this "movement" - is it osteopathic physicians (from my experience, doubtful), pre/meds students - or is the the AMA pulling the strings even? I'm no conspiracy theorist and I don't suspect med students - much less pre-meds, would know much about this topic but it is curious to me nonetheless...

Relevant PDF carried over:
 

Attachments

I really don't see the point in doing this. If you were to change it all it's going to do is pacify some people in the medical world. What about all the patients who actually know what a DO is? What are they going to do when they go to look for a DO and all of a sudden, it's now an MDO or something else as equally stupid? However much recognition that DO's have gained over the last 100 years could be lost. Sure, pretty much all of the medical world will know what's going on but how many of your typical, every day people follow medical news? Not a whole lot. Changing DO in some way isn't going to increase our recognition. All it's going to do is confuse most of the pts. If we're so worried about letting people know about the DO profession, why would we change what pretty much defines us? Of course I don't know how to change things, but I really don't see how changing the name of our degree will matter. Just my 2 cents...
 
I like MD-O or MD, DO....

I'm pre-dental, so how about MD-D...haha
 
Marthea007 said:
I really don't see the point in doing this. If you were to change it all it's going to do is pacify some people in the medical world. What about all the patients who actually know what a DO is? What are they going to do when they go to look for a DO and all of a sudden, it's now an MDO or something else as equally stupid? However much recognition that DO's have gained over the last 100 years could be lost. Sure, pretty much all of the medical world will know what's going on but how many of your typical, every day people follow medical news? Not a whole lot. Changing DO in some way isn't going to increase our recognition. All it's going to do is confuse most of the pts. If we're so worried about letting people know about the DO profession, why would we change what pretty much defines us? Of course I don't know how to change things, but I really don't see how changing the name of our degree will matter. Just my 2 cents...
Click to expand...

i don't know that there is big contingent of patients who "go to look for a DO". i.e. it's likely that there are more people that would prefer an MD, and the vast majority of people have no clue what the difference is if any than know what the "difference" is (if you can call it that) and wouldn't care one way or another. so my guess of the population is probably (in order of size/significance):
#1 = people who don't know & don't care about the difference b/w MD/DO (large %)
#2 = people who know the distinction, but have no preference
#3 = people who know the distinction, but prefer MD (small %)
#4 = people who know the distinction, but prefer DO (probably even smaller %)
Again, this is just my opinion, and it doesn't reflect at all on the DO training, but rather on public (lay) perception of the degrees, familiarity, exposure, etc. the point is that I think it's not really a great consideration to say "we'd be letting down all those people who prefer DO's if we changed it to MD", because they're not a big group and even those people know what an MD is and would probably be ok with going to one, even if it were not their top choice for some reason, and especially if they found out that DO's switched to MD.

i think the biggest problem is that people (me included) don't know how to feel about it. i mean on one hand, i'm proud of the fact that i'll be getting an MD, chose it specifically over a DO degree because frankly I feel my education and degree and opportunities are better, and part of me would resent if a large contingent of people who supposedly chose DO for the same reasons suddenly switched over to get my degree too. part of me thinks if you choose a DO-granting school instead of an MD-granting school, you can't change your mind later and get the MD. I'm sure you all would feel the same way in our shoes, or if all of a sudden all the MDs wanted a DO. or worse, (as would be the case with the "MD,DO" idea), just tacked your degree onto the end of theirs.

but then another part of me thinks all of this MD/DO split is silly and unnecessary. we do the same thing, let's stop pretending we're so different and stop confusing patients and stop letting all the alphabet soup and "doctorates" of health professions that are emerging run us into the ground. I mean we need to get together, and establish affirmatively that YES, (currently MD & DO, but would have more solidarity if we could say "MD=DOCTOR" and that's it) WE ARE DOCTORS, your PA is not a doctor, your CRNA is not a doctor, your NP is not a doctor, they may provide excellent care and are one of many invaluable members of the healthcare team, but we are the doctors. we went to medical school, we all got the same gold standard training, we all completed a board-certifying residency in our specialty, and we're all licensed to practice medicine. period.
 
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