How Do I Convince My Wife To Take Our Kids To A FP Rather Than A Pediatrician?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
For young children, it's a matter of parental preference. For older children (usually mid-teens), it's often their preference, once they tire of going to the "baby doctor."

The children I see in my practice are generally part of a family that I care for. It's rare that I see a child whose parents (at least one of them) aren't also my patients. Many childhood behavioral problems, as well as problems like obesity, are related to issues involving the family. Having that relationship can often be helpful.

My well-child checks are 30 minutes in length, the same as my adult physicals. That's all face-to-face time with me, not a nurse or mid-level. Much of well-child care involves counseling, so the extra time is valuable. I'm not aware of any pediatricians who devote that much time to well-child exams. Because of sheer volume, most simply can't.

If one of my pediatric patients needs to be seen acutely, they'll see me, not a mid-level or "doc of the day." Again, this is not typical in most high-volume pediatric practices.
 
The value of seeing an FP also lies in the fact that you have one doctor for the whole family. There is a lot of very valuable information gleaned from seeing the parents as patients as well as the child, because so many times in pediatrics, we are treating the parents with education as much as we are treating the child, and family dynamics play a HUGE part in the health of a child.

The time factor as Kent mentioned is also huge.

Of course, there will be times when a child is referred to a pediatric specialist, but I would venture that general pediatricians are just as likely to refer as FPs are, when the referral is appropriate.

Different FPs have different comfort levels with kids. Some prefer not to see many, others see a lot. I wouldn't take my kid to an FP who didn't see many kids, that just doesn't make sense.

The other thing, though not as common any more, is continuity through the delivery. Having taken part in that several times so far, there is nothing that invests you quite as much in a family as taking care of mom in pregnancy, delivering her, then taking care of mom and baby and the growing child thereafter. You know that kid like no one else, because you participated in their care from conception on.

That is the thing that keeps me doing more continuities than I have to, and what drives me to do OB when I'm done. There is just nothing like that relationship, and for me, it is worth the trouble.
 
I will say, that if this turns into another thread started by someone from another specialty with the goal of asking FPs, residents, and students interested in FM to defend themselves or prove why they should exist, see kids, see old people, see pregnant ladies instead of specialists, and if it also turns into a shouting match, it will be redirected and closed if necessary.

So far, so good. I will assume the best--that the OP is asking an earnest question and not looking for trouble.

Carry on.
 
:laugh: Believe me, ever since I have put 'family medicine' down on my application, I have neen fending these Qs and strange looks. I can't understand why? Live and let life=specialize and let generalize:laugh:

I will say, that if this turns into another thread started by someone from another specialty with the goal of asking FPs, residents, and students interested in FM to defend themselves or prove why they should exist, see kids, see old people, see pregnant ladies instead of specialists, and if it also turns into a shouting match, it will be redirected and closed if necessary

Carry on.
 
My well-child checks are 30 minutes in length, the same as my adult physicals. That's all face-to-face time with me, not a nurse or mid-level. Much of well-child care involves counseling, so the extra time is valuable. I'm not aware of any pediatricians who devote that much time to well-child exams. Because of sheer volume, most simply can't.

My pediatric outpatient experience was with two pediatricians who saw an average of 2 patients per hour. They were private practice and seemed to be doing pretty well.
 
I would rather have a FP doctor deliver me than an OB doc. That's because (around here) the c-section rate is 35%. The OB docs literally see a patient every 5 to 10 minutes. You won't necessarily be with the OB doc when you deliver. And most of the time when you go in for prenatal visits you are talking with the nurse practitioner.

I'd rather take my kids to see a family practice doctor because that doctor is going to know me as well, know my social situation. And plus you can often schedule your visit and the child's visit for the same hour so you don't have to make more trips.

In my outpatient experience, I saw little difference between FP and peds in terms of quality of care. In the hospital you could argue a difference, but outpatient, no. You just have to know when the child is sick enough to go to the hospital.
 
I spent 6 weeks w/ my son and I taking turns w/ strep throat before finally managing to coerce his ped to do a culture (on my very happy bouncy toddler) so that they'd get both of us on abx at the same time.

If I'd taken him to FM with me, it wouldn't have been an issue. I was just too lazy to fill out the new patient paperwork.
 
I will say, that if this turns into another thread started by someone from another specialty with the goal of asking FPs, residents, and students interested in FM to defend themselves or prove why they should exist, see kids, see old people, see pregnant ladies instead of specialists, and if it also turns into a shouting match, it will be redirected and closed if necessary.

So far, so good. I will assume the best--that the OP is asking an earnest question and not looking for trouble.

Carry on.

Uh, Chill.

I'm genuinely curious, and in fact, never saw a pedi growing up: Only FP.

I want to keep this in mind, but I've had some discussions with friends, and I need some ammo to back up my FP only position.

Carry on.
 
I like the family centered thought process towards the more behavioural issues, including obesity, which carries more "weight", no pun intended, when the whole family sees "Dr. Kent". Builds a lot of trust.

I also think the continuity from child to adult without a "missed beat" is HUGE.

I see so many patients in outpatient clinics who are in that "in between stage" who get poor to no follow up care. It seems that pedi docs do a pump and drop once they hit 18.


Not a good thing for those kids with some real sicknesses at a young age.

For young children, it's a matter of parental preference. For older children (usually mid-teens), it's often their preference, once they tire of going to the "baby doctor."

The children I see in my practice are generally part of a family that I care for. It's rare that I see a child whose parents (at least one of them) aren't also my patients. Many childhood behavioral problems, as well as problems like obesity, are related to issues involving the family. Having that relationship can often be helpful.

My well-child checks are 30 minutes in length, the same as my adult physicals. That's all face-to-face time with me, not a nurse or mid-level. Much of well-child care involves counseling, so the extra time is valuable. I'm not aware of any pediatricians who devote that much time to well-child exams. Because of sheer volume, most simply can't.

If one of my pediatric patients needs to be seen acutely, they'll see me, not a mid-level or "doc of the day." Again, this is not typical in most high-volume pediatric practices.
 
What's the minimum deliveries for an FP during residency? I'd think I'd prefer an FP is they had HEAVY OB experience, otherwise...?

And why is the section rate so high in OB vs FP?

I would rather have a FP doctor deliver me than an OB doc. That's because (around here) the c-section rate is 35%. The OB docs literally see a patient every 5 to 10 minutes. You won't necessarily be with the OB doc when you deliver. And most of the time when you go in for prenatal visits you are talking with the nurse practitioner.

I'd rather take my kids to see a family practice doctor because that doctor is going to know me as well, know my social situation. And plus you can often schedule your visit and the child's visit for the same hour so you don't have to make more trips.

In my outpatient experience, I saw little difference between FP and peds in terms of quality of care. In the hospital you could argue a difference, but outpatient, no. You just have to know when the child is sick enough to go to the hospital.
 
What's the minimum deliveries for an FP during residency? I'd think I'd prefer an FP is they had HEAVY OB experience, otherwise...?

People who want to do OB do way more than the minimum. The RRC currently requires 40 SVDs and 10 continuity deliveries.

It is not uncommon to graduate from an OB-heavy FM program, if you also do extra continuities and electives, with >200 SVDs and >50 c-sections. From what I have heard, these numbers come close to some OBGyn programs (OBs, correct me if I'm wrong--I'm sure you will 😉 ).
 
And why is the section rate so high in OB vs FP?

This is from the AAFP position paper on cesarean deliveries, see whole article here:

http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/policy/policies/c/cesarean.html

The medical literature documents that patients under the care of family physicians can have lower cesarean rates than matched patients under the care of obstetrician/gynecologists.14 In those studies, the two major causes of the lower cesarean rates are lower rates of repeat cesarean and less frequent diagnosis of dystocia. Most of these studies do not address the issue of whether or not the family physicians involved in the study had the skill and privileges to perform cesarean delivery and whether this would affect their cesarean rate. Other studies have shown that when family physicians practice side-by-side with obstetricians their labor management practices come to resemble those of the obstetricians.15, 16 It might be assumed, therefore, that when family physicians gain the skill and privileges to do cesarean delivery they would perform more cesareans. The only two studies in the medical literature that shed some light on this topic suggest otherwise.7,17 A third longitudinal study also supports the observation that family physicians with cesarean skills and privileges still manage to maintain their lower cesarean section rate.13
 
Thanks Sophie 🙂

Just for the record, I'm probably one of the most pro-FP docs who isn't an FP you'll ever meet.
 
opefully you can understand us being a bit gun-shy after the recent inflammatory assault from your anesthesia colleague.

As I said, assuming the best...

I'm sorry you continue to refer to it that way.

Judging by the number of views, the thread did much more good than harm. WOW..nearly EIGHT THOUSAND VIEWS. A pretty popular subject, wouldntcha say? Take it for what it was. A cynical view of a waging concern. If the New York Times recognizes the problem, maybe you should too.
 


I'm sorry you continue to refer to it that way.

Judging by the number of views, the thread did much more good than harm. WOW..nearly EIGHT THOUSAND VIEWS. A pretty popular subject, wouldntcha say? Take it for what it was. A cynical view of a waging concern. If the New York Times recognizes the problem, maybe you should too.


You know, a lot of other threads get more than 8,000 views, too. Some of them are entitled "does penis size really matter?"
 
You know, a lot of other threads get more than 8,000 views, too. Some of them are entitled "does penis size really matter?"

I've read your post.

Its another personal shot.

I choose not to report the post, like many others here would.

And I choose not to respond.
 
For young children, it's a matter of parental preference. For older children (usually mid-teens), it's often their preference, once they tire of going to the "baby doctor."

The children I see in my practice are generally part of a family that I care for. It's rare that I see a child whose parents (at least one of them) aren't also my patients. Many childhood behavioral problems, as well as problems like obesity, are related to issues involving the family. Having that relationship can often be helpful.

My well-child checks are 30 minutes in length, the same as my adult physicals. That's all face-to-face time with me, not a nurse or mid-level. Much of well-child care involves counseling, so the extra time is valuable. I'm not aware of any pediatricians who devote that much time to well-child exams. Because of sheer volume, most simply can't.

If one of my pediatric patients needs to be seen acutely, they'll see me, not a mid-level or "doc of the day." Again, this is not typical in most high-volume pediatric practices.

Kent,

Where do you practice, region-of-USA speaking?

I live in Louisiana and am not familiar with many practices like yours, which sounds almost too good to be true.

Something that'd be good for my kids and I.
 
On a personal note, I do see FPs being more patient with the laboring patient. I guess when you CAN do c-sections but would rather deliver vaginally, it makes a difference. I think a lot of OBs are a lot quicker to cut because to them, in many ways, sections are much more controllable, and they put a quick end to the "problem" of labor.

Obviously, there is a time and a place for sections, but if the CDC recommends reducing the c-section rate by 2010, I think we might do well to listen...
 
I've read your post.

Its another personal shot.

I choose not to report the post, like many others here would.

And I choose not to respond.

No, it's not. I'm disagreeing with your logic. You claim that sheer popularity of your thread means it "did more good than harm." This is unfounded in reality. illegal drugs are also popular. As are threads about penis size. Your thread was popular because people were fighting on it and everyone loves to see drama. It's not a personal attack on you. I'm sorry you can't separate criticism of your thread from criticism of yourself.
 
No, it's not. I'm disagreeing with your logic. You claim that sheer popularity of your thread means it "did more good than harm." This is unfounded in reality. illegal drugs are also popular. As are threads about penis size. Your thread was popular because people were fighting on it and everyone loves to see drama. It's not a personal attack on you. I'm sorry you can't separate criticism of your thread from criticism of yourself.

My opinion is different than yours.

I don't think it was totally attributed to drama.

I think its a subject that is very important....a problem so big its recognized by well established media disseminators.....and if you don't recognize the problem its my opinion you arent being honest with yourself.

I'll choose the ways I express my thoughts and concerns. Its OK for you to disagree.

Its also OK for me to voice an opinion.

BTW, the New York Times agrees with the message of the OP.
 
My opinion is different than yours.

I don't think it was totally attributed to drama.

I think its a subject that is very important....a problem so big its recognized by well established media disseminators.....and if you don't recognize the problem its my opinion you arent being honest with yourself.

I'll choose the ways I express my thoughts and concerns. Its OK for you to disagree.

Its also OK for me to voice an opinion.

BTW, the New York Times agrees with the message of the OP.

Fair enough. But I'm redirecting here. This is a new thread with a new topic, let's end it here or move this part of the discussion back to the previous thread.

Now, about pediatrics.............
 
My opinion is different than yours.

I don't think it was totally attributed to drama.

I think its a subject that is very important....a problem so big its recognized by well established media disseminators.....and if you don't recognize the problem its my opinion you arent being honest with yourself.

I'll choose the ways I express my thoughts and concerns. Its OK for you to disagree.

Its also OK for me to voice an opinion.

BTW, the New York Times agrees with the message of the OP.

Has anyone ever told you your posts read like haiku? Not a rip, just a style. i like poetry.

Your thread addressed a valid concern, but the way it was worded was inflammatory and made it seem like all you think we should care about is financial return. Titling of a thread is very important because often it's all that people pay attention to when choosing a specialty. If I were going to address the subject I would have used something like "the diminishing financial return of family practice; what can we do about it" or something like that.

Whoops, sorry, Sophie. Didn't see your "redirect" right above. Carry on, everyone.
 
Speaking of a pro-FP perspective..

AMA Chair of Board of Trustees wrote into the WSJ regarding DNPs. It's a start. Check out the thread on the general residency forum.

I really think we (Anesthesiologists and Family Practioners) are best suited based on our experience within our own specialties and fights with encroaching mid-levels to form a pretty strong bond together to fight the DNP issue for our patients and medicine as a whole....
 
I went to William & Mary -- I think my team physician (not sure if he's still at WM), Dr. Michael Potter, is one of your colleagues. Right?

Yes, indeed. Mike and I went through residency together, as well. Small world. 🙂

Do you ever go to any of the W&M football games?
 
Yes, indeed. Mike and I went through residency together, as well. Small world. 🙂

Do you ever go to any of the W&M football games?

Small world, indeed. I always assumed you were from the Bayou, given your avatar.

I don't live in the area anymore so not many Tribe football games for me, though I was there for last year's homecoming and will likely be there again this October. Only news I've been following out of WM lately is the resignation of Gene Nichol and all the BS coming from our cranky, ossified Board of Visitors.
 
I don't live in the area anymore so not many Tribe football games for me, though I was there for last year's homecoming and will likely be there again this October.

PM me sometime if you're going to be at a game. I go occasionally, and a couple of people I work with have a tailgate.
 
I really think we (Anesthesiologists and Family Practioners) are best suited based on our experience within our own specialties and fights with encroaching mid-levels to form a pretty strong bond together to fight the DNP issue for our patients and medicine as a whole....

This is probably very true.

However....I don't want to turn this into another physician vs midlevel flame war, those are so easily had.

I'm not so good with organizing and getting involved politically, but I can write (small) checks and send letters.

Those who can, should lead.
 
I think many OBs are a lot quicker to cut because to them, in many ways, sections are much more controllable, and they put a quick end to the "problem" of labor.

Not to make this political, but IMO we have one specific man to thank for the increase in CS rates and our obsession we have with FHT strips (even though we have no evidence that minor variations in FHT correlate to bad outcomes...especially CP). That person is John Edwards. You can read about one of the multi-million dollar lawsuit he won in which he "narrates" from the perspective of the baby at each point along a FHT strip. At one point, as the heart tones drop, he stated (in character as the baby), "I...can't...breathe....why won't someone help me!"

These days, if there is ANY question, the opportunity to perform a quick procedure with risk that approaches vag deliveries, you're gonna do it.

Apologies in advance for politicization and thread hijacktion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/31/politics/campaign/31EDWA.html?ex=1390885200&en=4fb97ac07a96f186&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND
 
As a Pediatric (3rd year) resident, would I bring my kids to an FP versus a Pediatrician? Maybe. But it's not really FP vs. Peds for me, it's who's a good doc: i.e one that I'm comfortable with, and who practices good medicine. I'm in the military, and down the street from my own training program, so I have to go there. But if I were shopping around for a practice, the front office staff and facilities would make a difference too.
In regards to comfort level, an FP that sees a whole family may have an edge, but lots of pediatricians are familiar with the rest of the family, even though they don't treat the rest of the family (medically speaking. Socially speaking, we treat the family all the time). Agreed that in a large Pediatric practice, that familiarity may be less able to be maintained longitudinally (but in an individual encounter I try to get a good feel for any relevant family dynamic, even in somebody else's patient). Is it different in large FP practices? Do FP's in large practices not cross cover their practice partners' patients? (I'm ignorant in this matter). But in regards to comfort: does the doc communicate well? Do they speak at my and my wife's level (especially important for the non-medical folk). Do they give me the rationale for why they are choosing to treat or not to treat (if that is more appropriate). I can't see any difference between an FP or a Pediatrician in regards to these. Not to knock on my own profession, but there are those that (sometimes correctly) criticize us for coming of as fairly self-righteous in our roles as caretakers and advocates for children. But I think this is often more personality dependent than profession dependent. When you're in an academic training institution it can be easy to have an "ivory tower" mentality, constantly "Monday-morning quarterbacking" outside providers decisions in regards to treatment or referral (FP or Ped. Wow, two metaphorical idioms in one sentence; how obnoxious). But again, when training in a large FP academic center does that not happen as well? Humility and empathy is something that had develop and grow along with my expanding knowledge set. I think there are many doctors in every field of medicine that fail in this regard.
I think all of the above is the easy thing for even non-medical people (searching for their kids' doctor) to have a grip on. Finding those that practice good medicine may be a little harder. In my residency I've seen or heard about plenty of bad medicine practiced by FP's and Pediatricians (and ED docs, surgeons, anesthesiologists...) and I feel like I'm being well trained to practice good pediatric medicine. I see no reason why an FP can't learn good pediatric medicine. As stated by those above, a good start is an FP who chooses to see lots of kids and is comfortable with them. I can only speak to my own position as a pediatrician looking for a doc for my kids, but if I were shopping around, here are some things I would want to know (some directed at the FP seeing kids): how do they keep up with pediatric medicine? I still like the AFP, but do they regularly do pediatric CME? Are they keeping up with the AAP/AAFP/NIH... guidelines on common pediatric conditions (AOM, bronchiolitis, asthma, obesity, hypertension, autism). Do they feel comfortable treating or NOT treating (when appropriate) common conditions in the acutely sick outpatient child (any of the above, add headache/migraine to the list; or the child who is demonstrating developmental abnormailities) or are they sending every simple bronchiolitic to the ED (that brings up another question: Pediatric sized equipment and medicines in the office to deal with the outpatient emergency prior to transfer?). A few times I've alluded to not treating. One of the big newsmakers of not treating was AOM, but there are plenty of other conditions that are appropriately managed with watchful waiting. And here is where two principles come to mind: 1. Burger King medicine ("you're way, right away") is not always good medicine even though it may make the parents happy, and 2. Communication is key (Duh, didn't I already say that?). The Strep test in the family above is a good example. If this family came to me saying that they have had a bunch of URI symptoms along with a sore throat and so does the child and asking me to strep test the kid, I'm going to try to convince them that a strep test is not necessary and has the potential for harm (15-20% asymptomatic strep colonization in the general population; Strep pharingitis usually goes with headache, fevers, abdominal sx, NOT with URI sx. Lots of viral URI's cause sore throat, a lot due to post-nasal drip. If every URI with sore throat gets swabbed/cultured there is going to be a lot of antibiotic overtreatment. Last I read that had some serious risks. And in a toddler aged child, strep infection is much less common and even when it does occur it is exceedingly rare that it is a rheumatogenic strain. Isn't that why we treat strep vs. changing the duration of illness significantly? This is not a comment on the above case, as I obviously lack the details, but rather a conceivable case). I'm going to look for someone who can communicate the good medicine behind a treatment decision. And bringing a little of the ivory tower with me: since I can't ask about every treatment practice, I can ask about a few (somewhat randomly selected examples): 1. When do you routinely use or not use antibiotics for commonly encountered conditions (i.e. AOM, URTI/LRTI, simple cellulitis) 2. When do you routinely prescribe systemic steroids (there shouldn't be many on this list in my book: asthma, bronchiolitis in a beta agonist responder [esp. with a family hx of atopy]. Lymphadenitis and eczema shouldn't be on this list in my book). 3. Are you liberal in you're prescribing of beta agonist in the setting of asthma or suspicion of asthma (you should be) and do you ever prescribe liquid albuterol (you shouldn't. ever. period). And here is a kink in everything. EBM does not solve all diagnostic dilemmas...are you willing to confess when you don't know exactly what you are treating and are you capable of explaining a course of treatment/non-treatment in the face of that ambiguity backing up you're decision with properly thought out risk vs. benefit and physiology in the absence of clear evidence? If you're an FP or a pediatrician who fits these bills, then you can see my kids.
 
Oh, and the diagnosis of bronchitis in kids...kind of along the line of diagnosing "pixie dust deficiency"
OK, I'm off the ivory tower soap-box. Peace to all who treat kids and treat them well.
 
Excellent post, J-Rad. Welcome to the forum. 🙂

I see you're in Porch'mut. Are you at CHKD?
 
Obviously, there is a time and a place for sections, but if the CDC recommends reducing the c-section rate by 2010, I think we might do well to listen...

Why does the CDC want to cut down on the c/s rate?

Theoretical, but a valid question.

Why should I take my kids to an FP for primary care versus a pediatrician?

I'll tell you a reason I would take my child to a pediatrician rather than FP - and of course this is not a real reason, but you got to base your decisions on something - but in every specialty I have met someone that is a jerk or prick, except pediatrics. I have never met a pediatrician that wasn't the nicest guy with sincere compassion.
 
How Do I Convince My Wife To Take Our Kids To A FP Rather Than A Pediatrician?

By reminding her that when she's breastfeeding and up all night and takes the fussy baby in to the doc and he gets diagnosed with oral thrush, in addition to a nystatin prescription for the baby she'll get a fluconazole prescription for herself instead of being told "go see your ob".
 
By reminding her that when she's breastfeeding and up all night and takes the fussy baby in to the doc and he gets diagnosed with oral thrush, in addition to a nystatin prescription for the baby she'll get a fluconazole prescription for herself instead of being told "go see your ob".


👍
 
By reminding her that when she's breastfeeding and up all night and takes the fussy baby in to the doc and he gets diagnosed with oral thrush, in addition to a nystatin prescription for the baby she'll get a fluconazole prescription for herself instead of being told "go see your ob".

:clap:

That's what it's all about, right there. We handle the 90% with in a family-centered, efficient, and complete way. The 10% weirdness, we happily refer.

I love mother-baby visits. 😍

I think they are truly a complete entity when breastfeeding, because one's health and state of mind is organically and inherently linked to the other.

Thanks for reminding me why I am putting myself through a thrashing to do FM with OB.
 
: I love mother-baby visits. 😍


I like the newborn, 2 week, and 2 month visits. After that, those babies loose their cuteness index drasticly. Not to mention that a 4 month old "baby" peed in my face while I was cheking her femoral pulses, then smiled right to my face while doing it...Not Cute.😡
 
I like the newborn, 2 week, and 2 month visits. After that, those babies loose their cuteness index drasticly. Not to mention that a 4 month old "baby" peed in my face while I was cheking her femoral pulses, then smiled right to my face while doing it...Not Cute.😡

Well, I guess you learned to stand to the side from now on, and never put your face down anywhere near the nether regions of a diapered child.
 
I like the newborn, 2 week, and 2 month visits. After that, those babies loose their cuteness index drasticly. Not to mention that a 4 month old "baby" peed in my face while I was cheking her femoral pulses, then smiled right to my face while doing it...Not Cute.😡

After two kiddos of my own, I figured out how to avoid that. You must remain. . .

Ever Vigilant!!!🙂
 
Top