Epic Physician Income Thread

painmd87 · Apr 28, 2011

Wolfman89 said:
At first I had issues with charging cash, but when you consider what most co-pays are.

A question, since I am not 100% sure how insurance works, why would the patients file with their insurance?

Insurance plans will generally reimburse a percentage of their "usual" fee to providers. It varies. For my plan, I get 70% reimbursed of their normal fee to the provider. In all, about half comes back to me.

ManBroDude · Apr 28, 2011

Wolfman89 said:
At first I had issues with charging cash, but when you consider what most co-pays are.

A question, since I am not 100% sure how insurance works, why would the patients file with their insurance?

Cutting out the middleman, as in most other examples in business, saves the customer money and gives the provider a bigger cut.

BadHorse · Apr 28, 2011

dannydickman said:
Cutting out the middleman, as in most other examples in business, saves the customer money and gives the provider a bigger cut.

Eliminating the middleman, never as simple as it sounds. 'Bout 50% of the human race is middlemen, and they don't take kindly to being eliminated.

slatermd · Apr 28, 2011

A timely update: Medscape just published their own survey of physician compensation. Here are some highlights:

I had heard that physicians in smaller towns earn more. The explanation I got from a family medicine resident was that, at least for salaried physicians, the pay had to be better in more rural areas as an incentive to go somewhere you wouldn't want to live elsewhere. Regardless of the reason:

Regrading hours worked per week, and breakdown between pt care and other activities:

There's a lot more info in the study about other compensation factors. You'll need a Medscape account to view it, and if you don't already have one I highly suggest you check it out ASAP. It is a great resource.
http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2011?src=ptalk&viewreporttext

45408 · Apr 28, 2011

5280 said:
I bet pediatricians and family medicine docs feel the same.

I'm not going to put out a number out there for what peds/FM deserves to make, because I don't know what that would be. What I do know is that on average, surgeons work more than either of those specialties, our residency is definitely longer and more difficult, and our malpractice risk is substantially higher than theirs. I'm sure they can see why we might be better reimbursed than they are, and I think that's pretty fair.

dbo8844 · Apr 28, 2011

I personally think anything over 100k would be more than enough to do anything you wanted if you invested your money correctly. There are tons of people who make millions of dollars a year that invest their money poorly and go bankrupt. Plus if you are becoming a doctor for the money then you are probably becoming a doctor for the wrong reasons.

Residual · Apr 28, 2011

dbo8844 said:
Plus if you are becoming a doctor for the money then you are probably becoming a doctor for the wrong reasons.

What are the right reasons, pray tell?

Personally, I'm going to be a doctor so I can prescribe myself narcotics. Amidoingitrite?

SouthParkMD · Apr 28, 2011

Residual said:
What are the right reasons, pray tell?

Personally, I'm going to be a doctor so I can prescribe myself narcotics. Amidoingitrite?

I want to help people and cure them!while driving in my Ferrari California of course 🙄.

Pons Asinorum · Apr 28, 2011

dbo8844 said:
I personally think anything over 100k would be more than enough to do anything you wanted if you invested your money correctly. There are tons of people who make millions of dollars a year that invest their money poorly and go bankrupt. Plus if you are becoming a doctor for the money then you are probably becoming a doctor for the wrong reasons.

Thank you for outing yourself as someone who's opinion is so ill-informed, I can simply ignore and move on.

Pons Asinorum · Apr 28, 2011

Wolfman89 said:
At first I had issues with charging cash, but when you consider what most co-pays are.

A question, since I am not 100% sure how insurance works, why would the patients file with their insurance?

The way that a cash practice works in general, and the beauty of it, is this.

1. Patient has a health issue that they want resolved.
2. They go to private practice that is a cash-practice. They write a check to for the service that they are provided at the point of service.
3. Practice give the patient a sheet of paper with a description of the service provided.
4. Patient provides that paperwork to their insurance company and commences trying to get reimbursed directly from their insurance company.

Biggest benefits:
1. Practice is paid at the time of service; there isn't a time/value of money kick to the shin as you wait to be paid for a service you've already provided.
2. You don't have to pay someone to work full-time getting your deserved reimbursments from insurance companies.
3. You are paid WHAT YOU THINK YOUR SERVICE IS WORTH, not what an insurance company wants to pay you or thinks your service is worth.
4. In my experience, the attitude of a customer who is paying out of pocket for their care tends to be much different than the "give me the healthcare I deserve" customer who has no skin in the game, or whose skin in the game is isolated from the treatment/payment process.

oldbearprofessor · Apr 28, 2011

TheProwler said:
I'm not going to put out a number out there for what peds/FM deserves to make, because I don't know what that would be. What I do know is that on average, surgeons work more than either of those specialties, our residency is definitely longer and more difficult, and our malpractice risk is substantially higher than theirs. I'm sure they can see why we might be better reimbursed than they are, and I think that's pretty fair.

Hmm...pediatric infectious disease specialists train for 6 years total (one more than general surgery). Their training hours are not, under current work hour rules, any different than general surgery training. That the 6 years is easier than general surgery training is an opinion that I don't agree with, but you have a right to it as I do to my view. They actually make less than if they didn't do the extra 3 years of pedi ID fellowship. Salaries quoted are after malpractice insurance and I'm not sure that risk of malpractice should mean higher compensation after that is accounted for. Post-training, many pedi subspecialist work very long hours, not so different than surgeons.

Regardless, and this might surprise you, pediatricians, both general and subspecialist, do not necessarily think that surgeons deserve a greater salary than they do.

Pons Asinorum · Apr 28, 2011

Also, great, great thread medzealot. You can focus on finals in peace, knowing this one will be a few hundred (hopefully relatively constructive; I will be unable to resist a lolcat at somepoint, I'm sure) comments when you get back.

chidoman · Apr 28, 2011

neandurthal · Apr 28, 2011

chidoman said:
There is way too much thought put into this thread.

If you don't want debt do what I'm doing. Have your wife work to support you while you're in school and promise her she can retire when you graduate!!

Haha. That's what I'm doing as well. I also think that people worry way to much about the debt. Does debt suck? Absolutely, but it's a means to an end. When I graduated undergrad a while back I had $40,000 in loans. When I got out I was making about $40,000/year. It hasn't crushed me. When I'm a doctor making $200,000/year with a debt of $200,000 it will be pretty familiar. I did fail accounting though, so I may be wrong.

Pons Asinorum · Apr 28, 2011

neandurthal said:
Haha. That's what I'm doing as well. I also think that people worry way to much about the debt. Does debt suck? Absolutely, but it's a means to an end. When I graduated undergrad a while back I had $40,000 in loans. When I got out I was making about $40,000/year. It hasn't crushed me. When I'm a doctor making $200,000/year with a debt of $200,000 it will be pretty familiar. I did fail accounting though, so I may be wrong.

Not trying to argue, but your tax burden at $200k is going to take a little different bite than what it was down in $40k-land.

Slack3r · Apr 28, 2011

I think too many people feel physicians should be compensated due to the extensive training and "sacrifices" that pre-meds/med students/residents must make in order to become a BC physician. I think doctors will always be compensated relatively well because of the services they provide; doctors will always have relatively high "economic rent", for those economically inclined. There aren't many alternatives for quality medical care (DNP's aside 🙄) so I do believe we will always be remunerated fairly well. Even looking at countries with (gasp) universal healthcare (Canada) or single-payor (NHS in Britain), physicians still make six figure salaries.

That brings me to your next point: how much is a six figure salary?

For argument's sake let's assume a $200k per year salary. I'm assuming this salary is not unattainable for any field in medicine. I'm also assuming that physician salaries will be unlikely to drop much lower than this point for most specialties.

$200,000 minus taxes (we'll assume 40%) gives us $120,000 per year take home pay, or $10,000 per month. Assuming $350,000 in loans at 6.8% interest over 10 years (monthly payment of $4000), leaves you with $6000 per month take home pay, or $72,000 per year. Not a lavish lifestyle, but you won't be living in a box eating ramen either.

Now, some will still posit that $200k is not a lot. I grew up on a slightly less than $200k household income. We don't own a boat, or a vacation home, or a Maserati....but both my parents drive luxury cars, myself and my 2 siblings have our own vehicles, I've never gone hungry and I've never been disappointed on Christmas at a dearth of presents under the tree. We took vacations as a family, not to Europe or 5 star resorts, but we did alright for ourselves. Basically, my parents made enough to provide a middle to upper-middle class lifestyle for themselves and their three children.

Now the next logical point would be: is it fair for a doctor who "sacrifices a decade" in training and several hundred thousand dollars of debt make only marginally more than a couple with bachelor's degrees?

I think this brings us back to the point so oft trumpeted around these forums: don't do medicine for the money...which is, I think, both true and false. As elucidated above, medicine hardly affords an opulent lifestyle (at $72k you'll be ballin on a budget) and I'm not sure it should. No other career path, save NBA player or rap mogul, guarantees the salary medicine does. Sure, their are outliers in every field and I know some idiot will post that a guy their friend's friend's cousin knows makes $XX,XXX,XXX doing some menial job, ipso facto: medicine sucks. Those who go into medicine EXPECTING that their medical degree should automatically entitle them to money and b!tches (which always follow money, clearly), as stated ad nauseum on these boards, will be thoroughly disappointed. And rightfully so, nobody is entitled to anything. Too often people consider medicine because "doctors make bank". Then they're told, don't do medicine, do dentistry: they work 3 days a week and make $250k a year. Check out DentalTown or other forums and see how many dentists are chasing the "million dollar practice" pipe dream. There are plenty of dentists that are hurting also, and dental school tuition is even worse than med school. You think $200k in debt is bad? Try $400k+. Nobody is going to hand you $$$ based solely on the letters after your name. A medical degree puts you in a position to maximize your income, but it's hardly, HARDLY a guarantee. I think too many people forget that.

That being said, I do believe there is, and always will be, money to be made in medicine. Business acumen and niche markets will determine who will make those coveted "half million dollar" salaries in the future. Things like concierge medicine, cash practices, and cosmetic procedures have already proven to be effective means of maximizing income. We have to assume that physician salaries (by virtue of insurance or government payments) will not rise. If anything, we're looking at significant decreases in many fields. Therefore, identifying and exploring such niche markets will be the name of the game in the future.

Narmerguy · Apr 28, 2011

True but I don't think anyone on this forum is actually concerned about their debt. We say we are, because it's a lot to pay and blah blah blah. But everyone knows that barring irresponsible spending, the debt will be paid while still allowing us to live quite well since mostly it gets paid over 20-30 years if it's large.

I haven't seen any doctor that is struggling to balance work and paying off their debt with the exception of a few family practice that it later turns out were not sensibly using their money in pretty egregious ways.

But instead of everyone arguing whether it sucks to have the debt or not, can we do a breakdown? I don't understand enough of the minutia to do a detailed breakdown that won't provoke squabbling but surely some people here have that kind of knowledge.

jdh71 · Apr 28, 2011

TheProwler said:
I'm not going to put out a number out there for what peds/FM deserves to make, because I don't know what that would be. What I do know is that on average, surgeons work more than either of those specialties, our residency is definitely longer and more difficult, and our malpractice risk is substantially higher than theirs. I'm sure they can see why we might be better reimbursed than they are, and I think that's pretty fair.

Seriously. Who gives a **** about any of that? In this country we pay people with low IQs and hormone abnormalities millions of dollars to carry a ball over a line. You don't "deserve" to make a single dollar based on how much you work or how risky your job is. You remind me of cops who bitch about how dangerous their job is - duh - "it's why you carry a gun". You knew your hours and your often thankless job and your approximate compensation when you signed up, the rest is bull****. You ONLY have a right to get paid whatever you can get someone to pay you for whatever they think you're worth. That's it, homes - nothing more, nothing less. No one else cares how hard you work

Slack3r · Apr 28, 2011

jdh71 said:
You ONLY have a right to get paid whatever you can get someone to pay you for whatever they think you're worth. That's it, homes - nothing more, nothing less. No one else cares how hard you work

Economics 101.

RelicLTD · Apr 28, 2011

jdh71 said:
Seriously. Who gives a **** about any of that? In this country we pay people with low IQs and hormone abnormalities millions of dollars to carry a ball over a line. You don't "deserve" to make a single dollar based on how much you work or how risky your job is. You remind me of cops who bitch about how dangerous their job is - duh - "it's why you carry a gun". You knew your hours and your often thankless job and your approximate compensation when you signed up, the rest is bull****. You ONLY have a right to get paid whatever you can get someone to pay you for whatever they think you're worth. That's it, homes - nothing more, nothing less. No one else cares how hard you work

Problem is, neither doctors or patients (generally) get to decide what the service is worth. Some dude who came up with RVU's, government regulations, and insurance reimbursement schemes decide what your service is worth.

I don't think this thread needs to delve into discussing Free-market medicine, which I unintentionally just hinted at. I think we ought to focus on the realities facing current students/physicians. How to reduce debt (finding best repayment plans), possible ways to increase income, and how to make the most out of the money you DO make.

Truth is - I don't think anyone is worried about being poor or not being able to repay their loans, but there is no reason physicians shouldn't fight for better reimbursement, hours, and autonomy.

What are the chances of reform in general reimbursement schemes? Not just a shake-up of RVU's, but a shift in the way physicians are paid (Procedures vs Outcome... etc.)

jdh71 · Apr 28, 2011

RelicLTD said:
Problem is, neither doctors or patients (generally) get to decide what the service is worth. Some dude who came up with RVU's, government regulations, and insurance reimbursement schemes decide what your service is worth.

I don't think this thread needs to delve into discussing Free-market medicine, which I unintentionally just hinted at. I think we ought to focus on the realities facing current students/physicians. How to reduce debt (finding best repayment plans), possible ways to increase income, and how to make the most out of the money you DO make.

Truth is - I don't think anyone is worried about being poor or not being able to repay their loans, but there is no reason physicians shouldn't fight for better reimbursement, hours, and autonomy.

What are the chances of reform in general reimbursement schemes? Not just a shake-up of RVU's, but a shift in the way physicians are paid (Procedures vs Outcome... etc.)

Of course, for multiple reasons there is no longer any sort of real free market for most of medicine, but the overall point still stands: You make whatever you can get paid. And no one still cares how long you work.

Doc's could solve all their problems with a real union and a national strike until all the people REALLY making money came to their sense . . . but that would 1) be like herding cats and 2) obviously ethically and morally problematic.

Charles_Carmichael · Apr 28, 2011

jdh71 said:
Of course, for multiple reasons there is no longer any sort of real free market for most of medicine, but the overall point still stands: You make whatever you can get paid. And no one still cares how long you work.

Doc's could solve all their problems with a real union and a national strike until all the people REALLY making money came to their sense . . . but that would 1) be like herding cats and 2) obviously ethically and morally problematic.

It would also be illegal since physicians would be breaking anti-trust laws. Not sure if academic/salaried physicians are excluded from that though.

Cleavername · Apr 28, 2011

jdh71 said:
Seriously. Who gives a **** about any of that? In this country we pay people with low IQs and hormone abnormalities millions of dollars to carry a ball over a line. You don't "deserve" to make a single dollar based on how much you work or how risky your job is. You remind me of cops who bitch about how dangerous their job is - duh - "it's why you carry a gun". You knew your hours and your often thankless job and your approximate compensation when you signed up, the rest is bull****. You ONLY have a right to get paid whatever you can get someone to pay you for whatever they think you're worth. That's it, homes - nothing more, nothing less. No one else cares how hard you work

i 😍 u.

jdh71 · Apr 28, 2011

Kaushik said:
It would also be illegal since physicians would be breaking anti-trust laws. Not sure if academic/salaried physicians are excluded from that though.

Illegal?

Let me beg the question here and for argument's sake agree that it is "illegal". What are they going to do arrest everyone? Who gives a **** if it's "illegal" or not? Don't go to work. See what happens.

bucks2010 · Apr 28, 2011

Kind of goes against the oath you take as a physician to let patients die w/out treatment just so you can get a pay raise.

AgentBlue · Apr 28, 2011

I feel sorry for all the uninformed premeds (non-sdn premeds) who think that they will be making 500k+ when they become doctors.

I was talking to a premed in my lab last week who told me that most doctors are multimillionaires !!! 😱

Boy, are these people in for a very rude awakening. :scared:

jdh71 · Apr 28, 2011

bucks2010 said:
Kind of goes against the oath you take as a physician to let patients die w/out treatment just so you can get a pay raise.

the problematic moral and ethical "issue" was noted above

Pro Tip: reading comprehension will help you a lot on your journey to get into medical school

ManBroDude · Apr 29, 2011

chidoman said:
There is way too much thought put into this thread.

If you don't want debt do what I'm doing. Have your wife work to support you while you're in school and promise her she can retire when you graduate!!

👍 +1

bucks2010 · Apr 29, 2011

jdh71 said:
the problematic moral and ethical "issue" was noted above

condescension ftw 👍

omgyou8myrice · Apr 29, 2011

The ignorance of people towards what a good salary is astoudning. What can you do with 13k a month after taxes? Really? My parents make a bit less of that with a family of 8 people, and we all live damn well. All of my siblings drive nice, new cars. We all had undergrand paid for (I am the exception, I got through undergad on saved money and scholarships in return for my parents funding part of medical school), lived in a very nice home, etc. If you guys really think 200k can't afford you a damn good lifestyle, you're a fool.

MCAT guy · Apr 29, 2011

jdh71 said:
Illegal?

Let me beg the question here and for argument's sake agree that it is "illegal". What are they going to do arrest everyone? Who gives a **** if it's "illegal" or not? Don't go to work. See what happens.

Wow. A shinning example of integrity and character.

MCAT guy · Apr 29, 2011

bucks2010 said:
condescension ftw 👍

Bucks,

Didn't you know that one of the benefits of being a resident is you can return to mercilessly troll SDN. It is line item 22-1 of the SDN TOS.

Residency is so brutal that you only have an hour a day to troll SDN pre-medical forums.

jdh71 · Apr 29, 2011

MCAT guy said:
Wow. A shinning example of integrity and character.

What problem specifically with "integrity and character" do you have with the post you quoted? I doubt you'll be able to connect the dots, because I'm pretty sure I heard your little knees jerk.

Also, I've not been trolling this thread. Unless you want to pull the intellectually dishonest douchebag card, it's pretty clear I've been contributing to this thread and not trolling in the least. The mere fact that you find yourself with a negative emotional response to anything I've posted is unequal with trolling.

Lastly, you catty and passive aggressive style is noted, and while I find it particularly contemptuous, it is a trait found all too often in my medical colleagues. You must be on the right track.

slatermd · Apr 29, 2011

bucks2010 said:
condescension ftw 👍

MCAT guy said:
Bucks,

Didn't you know that one of the benefits of being a resident is you can return to mercilessly troll SDN. It is line item 22-1 of the SDN TOS.

Residency is so brutal that you only have an hour a day to troll SDN pre-medical forums.

jdh is a really good guy, and he's not trolling. If he's coming across as edgy or worked up, I suspect it's because he's making an important point.

When the M1's and M2's come "down to our level" and pull rank about what it's like to be an attending physician, that's condescension ftw.

Having some personal experience chatting with jdh, I suspect that this is more an example of naiveté ftl. I, for one, am willing to admit that I know nothing about anti-trust laws and what would or would not happen if physicians organized a strike.

I recommend that we be willing to discuss this, as well as be willing to put our collective pre-allo foot in our mouth for the sake of learning. jdh is a good source of information, not only because he is done with residency (i.e would be an IM attending if he were not pursuing a fellowship), but because he thinks about these issues.

If we get too pissy because we can't handle his delivery, he'll peace out. He's not here to coddle our feelings (welcome to the wards).

slatermd · Apr 29, 2011

omgyou8myrice said:
The ignorance of people towards what a good salary is astoudning. What can you do with 13k a month after taxes? Really? My parents make a bit less of that with a family of 8 people, and we all live damn well. All of my siblings drive nice, new cars. We all had undergrand paid for (I am the exception, I got through undergad on saved money and scholarships in return for my parents funding part of medical school), lived in a very nice home, etc. If you guys really think 200k can't afford you a damn good lifestyle, you're a fool.

Not one person said that you can't live comfortably on that. There was a point I was hinting at, which Slack3r made quite nicely. Living comfortably =|= the cars, boats, and multiple homes that some people might think they can pull off with $200K.

To extend that to a conclusion I will draw later, if you say that money is your motivator and you're happy with low six-figures, either 1) money isn't truly what motivates you or 2) you have a serious lack of ambition.

And for the record, I have seen what $160K can do and it is beyond comfortable. I have also lived on less than $13K a year, let alone a month. So if it's me you're calling "ignorant," I'll accept your rebuke and graciously suggest that you read through the rest of the thread.

MCAT guy · Apr 29, 2011

jdh71 said:
What problem specifically with "integrity and character" do you have with the post you quoted? I doubt you'll be able to connect the dots, because I'm pretty sure I heard your little knees jerk.

Also, I've not been trolling this thread. Unless you want to pull the intellectually dishonest douchebag card, it's pretty clear I've been contributing to this thread and not trolling in the least. The mere fact that you find yourself with a negative emotional response to anything I've posted is unequal with trolling.

Lastly, you catty and passive aggressive style is noted, and while I find it particularly contemptuous, it is a trait found all too often in my medical colleagues. You must be on the right track.

I should be in line for a great match.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Just got my copy of First Aid yesterday in the mail. Time to go to work👍

MCAT guy · Apr 29, 2011

medzealot said:
jdh is a really good guy, and he's not trolling. If he's coming across as edgy or worked up, I suspect it's because he's making an important point.

When the M1's and M2's come "down to our level" and pull rank about what it's like to be an attending physician, that's condescension ftw.

Having some personal experience chatting with jdh, I suspect that this is more an example of naiveté ftl. I, for one, am willing to admit that I know nothing about anti-trust laws and what would or would not happen if physicians organized a strike.

I recommend that we be willing to discuss this, as well as be willing to put our collective pre-allo foot in our mouth for the sake of learning. jdh is a good source of information, not only because he is done with residency (i.e would be an IM attending if he were not pursuing a fellowship), but because he thinks about these issues.

If we get too pissy because we can't handle his delivery, he'll peace out. He's not here to coddle our feelings (welcome to the wards).

Putting up with poor treatment to learn from some random medical graduate from who knows where? Or I can just go talk to medical students, residents, and attendings at a top ranked US News hospital. Believe it or not, not all hospitals have malignant programs and condescending doctors. So yeah, I'd rather use the vast resources my school offers than some random medical graduate on the internet.

jdh71 · Apr 29, 2011

MCAT guy said:
I should be in line for a great match.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Just got my copy of First Aid yesterday in the mail. Time to go to work👍

Your dodge is noted.

MCAT guy · Apr 29, 2011

jdh71 said:
Your dodge is noted.

Your overuse of SDN and bizarre need to be in Pre-Allo forums is duly noted.

aSagacious · Apr 29, 2011

This was a promising thread before these two divas started catfighting 😀.

Just so I can steer the thread back on course, here are my two cents:
- Doctors will, in the foreseeable future, always have job security. Even if they are let go by a struggling hospital/practice, there is such a shortage of doctors nationwide that they will certainly be scooped up somewhere, so long as they are not picky.
- I think everyone has agreed on this point: 200k is not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, but you will not have to worry about putting food on your plate, funding your kids' college, etc.
- If you go into ANY field for the money, you will likely be miserable for the next few decades, medicine is no exception.

medbound13 · Apr 29, 2011

RelicLTD said:
Overview
Established in 2002 (article written 2010).
Accepts no insurance or Medicare.
See's at most 16 patients per day, and goes home at 5pm every night.
Pre tax net income between $275-495K per year (broad range, but directly from the article)
Has 2,500 active patients.
Keeps costs low by eliminating insurance administration duties, keeping a minimal staff, and negotiates low outsourced lab fees.
Has a price board out in front of his office ($45 Office visit, $25 Sport physical, $25 Lipid panel, etc.).
Gives patients print-outs of prepared CPT and ICD-9 codes for their visit if they wish to file their insurance.
Very low wait times, and long patient interaction times (5min/50min)
Keys to success include his quality time spent with patients. Low costs alone aren't enough. Patient satisfaction made his practice grow rapidly.
(Side Note) Physicians not accepting insurance in North Carolina went from .1% to 5% over three to four years.

Why don't people realize that if you have one of these you'll be able to save an open another practice and then another and so on? Easy math: $275,000 per year x 10 practices=$2,750,000 per year (before paying other physicians salaries).

jdh71 · Apr 29, 2011

MCAT guy said:
Your overuse of SDN and bizarre need to be in Pre-Allo forums is duly noted.

A common tactic.

But what does it mean? I rarely post in here, but because I have in this thread that means . . . what? Exactly? Am I a bad person because I've posted here? Do I not know what I'm talking about because I've posted in here?

You've got nothing substantive to say, outside of what I assume you mean to be a passive aggressive insult, and yet you actually have the temerity to accuse me of "trolling"?

Priceless.

TexasPhysician · Apr 29, 2011

aSagacious said:
Just so I can steer the thread back on course, here are my two cents:
- Doctors will, in the foreseeable future, always have job security. Even if they are let go by a struggling hospital/practice, there is such a shortage of doctors nationwide that they will certainly be scooped up somewhere, so long as they are not picky.
- I think everyone has agreed on this point: 200k is not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, but you will not have to worry about putting food on your plate, funding your kids' college, etc.

These are reasons why I started my personal finance blog - see below. Physicians need to start being smart with their money, saving appropriately, getting involved in other ways to accumulate wealth, etc. You can't just sit back and count your gold coins anymore.

45408 · Apr 29, 2011

oldbearprofessor said:
Hmm...pediatric infectious disease specialists train for 6 years total (one more than general surgery). Their training hours are not, under current work hour rules, any different than general surgery training. That the 6 years is easier than general surgery training is an opinion that I don't agree with, but you have a right to it as I do to my view.

Now you're comparing a fellowship subspecialty to a non-fellowship general residency graduate. Most surgeons go into fellowship training now (70% or more). The work hour restrictions might not be any different, but I know that the peds residents at my program work less than we do. They have outpatient months with no call responsibilities and no weekends. Now, that was their choice, and this was my choice, so I don't begrudge them that.

Also, I've heard infectious disease is a low-paying specialty across the board, although I have no idea why.

oldbearprofessor said:
Salaries quoted are after malpractice insurance and I'm not sure that risk of malpractice should mean higher compensation after that is accounted for.

To me, it's being paid for the stress. I'm sure your job can be very stressful and intellectually rigorous at times, and I would reasonably expect to pay you more for an hour of your time when you're caring for a critical neonate than a well-child check.

Regardless, and this might surprise you, pediatricians, both general and subspecialist, do not necessarily think that surgeons deserve a greater salary than they do.

Sticking with the average individual from either specialty rather than outliers, surgeons work more, trained for longer, and have more risk (as measured by lawsuit rates). If someone has a legitimate reason for why a typical pediatrician should be paid equal to or more than a typical general surgeon, I'm interested to hear it.

45408 · Apr 29, 2011

jdh71 said:
Seriously. Who gives a **** about any of that? In this country we pay people with low IQs and hormone abnormalities millions of dollars to carry a ball over a line. You don't "deserve" to make a single dollar based on how much you work or how risky your job is. You remind me of cops who bitch about how dangerous their job is - duh - "it's why you carry a gun". You knew your hours and your often thankless job and your approximate compensation when you signed up, the rest is bull****. You ONLY have a right to get paid whatever you can get someone to pay you for whatever they think you're worth.

No sh-t, Sherlock.

The current system has nothing to do with what the patient thinks your services are worth, and everything to do with how much money one large aggregate group of lobbyists representing one group of special interests can extract from another.

That's it, homes - nothing more, nothing less.

Wrong. It's a lot more. It's a trillion dollar industry with our government vested with hundreds of billions of dollars. It's nice that you think it's as simple as being paid what someone thinks you're worth, but it's not.

gravitywave · Apr 29, 2011

AgentBlue said:
I feel sorry for all the uninformed premeds (non-sdn premeds) who think that they will be making 500k+ when they become doctors.

I was talking to a premed in my lab last week who told me that most doctors are multimillionaires !!! 😱

Boy, are these people in for a very rude awakening.

millionaire: a person whose assets are worth one million plus dollars.

by this definition, most doctors are, indeed, multi-millionaires.

but yeah, not many will be making $500k/yr

jdh71 · Apr 29, 2011

TheProwler said:
No sh-t, Sherlock.

The current system has nothing to do with what the patient thinks your services are worth, and everything to do with how much money one large aggregate group of lobbyists representing one group of special interests can extract from another.

Wrong. It's a lot more. It's a trillion dollar industry with our government vested with hundreds of billions of dollars. It's nice that you think it's as simple as being paid what someone thinks you're worth, but it's not.

awww, u mad

you get what you get homes, and still . . . no one gives a **** how long or hard you work and you still don't "deserve" more money than a pediatrician

45408 · Apr 29, 2011

jdh71 said:
awww, u mad

you get what you get homes, and still . . . no one gives a **** how long or hard you work and you still don't "deserve" more money than a pediatrician

MCAT guy · Apr 29, 2011

TheProwler said:

👍

jdh71 · Apr 29, 2011

TheProwler said:

And, still, no one cares how hard you work.

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