Letter to Dr. Levine re: Rhode Island College of Osteopathic Medicine

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DO Anes

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Dear Dr. Levine:

In the June 4, “This New England” blog of the Providence (RI) Journal, Stephen Rodger, Founder of the Rhode Island School of Osteopathic Medicine and President of R3 Education discusses and advocates the proposed school and addresses its for-profit status. Frankly, the piece is well-written and one of the more cogent arguments supporting for-profit medical education. Unfortunately, Mr. Rodger omitted some pertinent data that will have potentially negative implications for this profession, should the school be accredited.

Nowhere in the article does he describe the mission and motivations of R3 Education, or even make any reference to R3 Education. His association is only mentioned by the Journal in a brief biographical signature line. R3 Education is a Massachusetts-based holding company that acquires and manages for-profit medical schools in the Caribbean, including Saba University School of Medicine, the Medical University of the Americas and St. Matthew’s University. Is it not curious that a company with no ties or historical relationship with osteopathic medicine, whose core business is for-profit MD (allopathic) schools, now wants to open a DO (osteopathic) school in Rhode Island, which is not most people’s idea of a state suffering from a physician shortage? Actually, it is just good business. The Caribbean medical school industry is facing a crisis of sorts, as their graduates are finding it increasingly difficult to match into US residency programs. Allopathic and osteopathic school enrollments in the US have greatly increased, while federal funding for residency positions is capped at 1997 levels. Many residency programs in the US no longer consider graduates of Caribbean schools, regardless of their qualifications, as there are ample US applicants. I have personally seen this in multiple ACGME programs and, of course, AOA residency programs have never been open to Caribbean allopathic graduates. So, to protect their business, the Caribbean schools need to open de facto US campuses. The easiest way to do this is by opening osteopathic schools, which are accredited by COCA, a more permissive body than the LCME, which accredits MD schools. The pioneer for this was the Rocky Vista College of Osteopathic Medicine in Denver, whose founder/owner, was associated with the American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine. Its success in opening and operating as the only for-profit medical school in the industrialized world has paved the way for the “Caribbean gold rush”, as these institutions look for a way to sustain their business model. Whether or not this is a good thing is subject to debate, but it is disingenuous to argue that the primary motivation behind this school is a humanitarian concern for the health and welfare of the people and state of Rhode Island. Indeed, one of the Deans of Brown University has already commented that for-profit education may be inferior to not-for-profit.

Dr. Levine, is this the future of our profession? Given your history in Osteopathic Medicine, you know far better than me the struggles we have undergone to become a credible and full member of the US medical community. I am concerned that, not only does this tarnish the profession to the public eye, it puts us at jeopardy when difficult decisions are made at the Federal level regarding educational funding and support. When Brown University competes with the Rhode Island Caribbean consortium, who do you think will be left short? Ultimately, we will become doctors of a lesser sort, who will eventually be supplanted by nurse practitioners and other allied health professionals. While the pro and con arguments regarding for-profit education have been discussed ad nauseam, it is basically a question of whether we are “as good as possible”, or just “good enough”. Do we invest in research and education to the fullest or do we delegate that to the allopathic profession so that the for-profit investors can realize a greater fiscal return?

I well understand the role of COCA and limitations of the AOA. It is also unquestionably true, however, that you, as our president have a bully pulpit and need only to speak out regarding for-profit medical education, as the LCME already does in their accreditation standards. The allopathic profession quite clearly and publicly states that medical education should be non-profit. What say you?

Fraternally,
George Mychaskiw II, DO, FAAP, FACOP
Professor of Anesthesiology
AOA #50323
 
Outstanding letter with good salient points. Thanks for posting.
 
👍 Excellent letter! I Hope it falls on receptive ears..

... as an aside, there was a giant advertisement for AUC right next to your post, and one for SGU on the top of the page when I opened this link. Just thought that was ironic..
 
I salute you for standing up for the DO profession, Dr. Mychaskiw. The Carribean warlords should be kept off-shore because they are operating immorally (see Harlem Hospital residency spots).
 
Well written doc. I hope more attendings step up as well. Thank you.
 
I'm not a fan of his. I went to a presentation by him and he skirted around several issues.

Same here. I've never heard a man brag so much in my life. All he did was talk about how he was in 100 best doctors or something and about how he is an example for people blah blah blah blah blah.....

It was like a timeshare pressure sale; I'm surprised we weren't pressured to by stock in Levine Inc.

I've seriously never disliked someone so much after listening to them for so brief a time.
 
Same here. I've never heard a man brag so much in my life. All he did was talk about how he was in 100 best doctors or something and about how he is an example for people blah blah blah blah blah.....

It was like a timeshare pressure sale; I'm surprised we weren't pressured to by stock in Levine Inc.

I've seriously never disliked someone so much after listening to them for so brief a time.

Agreed. He started off ok but then bragging about himself, his family(the nephew going into orthopedics hmmm must not be such a great example since you want to "promote primary care"), and then he went and said something along the lines of OMM could fix the intima of the heart of in CAD pt. I just smfh. Waste of 2 hours of my life I will never get back.

Its people like him who gives us an overall bad name to the allopathic side of the fence and just think he is our "footprint" for the to see.
 
I'm not a fan of his. I went to a presentation by him and he skirted around several issues.

Lol. I am assuming the issues with the new schools opening, the situation with the allopathic residency spots like in our talk as well as the shortage of GOOD osteopathic residencies.
 
Same here. I've never heard a man brag so much in my life. All he did was talk about how he was in 100 best doctors or something and about how he is an example for people blah blah blah blah blah.....

It was like a timeshare pressure sale; I'm surprised we weren't pressured to by stock in Levine Inc.

I've seriously never disliked someone so much after listening to them for so brief a time.

haha at least you guys never had him as some sort of figurehead dean at your school. every time he came to speak to us in class it was yet another name-dropping session. "you know Carl Lewis, the olympic gold medalist in track? i treated him. but that's not the point.."

he's so useless. and condescending. it's too bad, since the letter from the OP is so well written. we need more people like you if we're ever going to do something about this whole reckless expansion of new osteopathic schools thing
 
Well said Dr. Mychaskiw.

After Levine, if you have the time, you might want to go after these individuals:

Members of the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA)

Voting Members

Kenneth J. Veit, DO, MBA: Chair

Sandra Featherman, PhD: Vice-Chair

Mark S. Cantieri, DO, FAAO

Thomas A. Cavalieri, DO, FACOI, FACP

Lloyd J. Cleaver, DO, FAOCD

James W. Cole, DO

John M. Ferretti, DO, FACOI

Kenneth H. Johnson, DO, FAAO

Isaac J. Kirstein, DO, FACOI

Kieran P. Knapp, DO

Paul M. Krueger, DO, FACOOG

Paul E. LaCasse, DO, MPH

Ronnie B. Martin, DO, FACOFP

James D. Polk, DO

William D. Strampel, DO, FACOI

David M. Wells, JD

Richard A. Winn, EdD
 
great letter. if you receive a reply please post
 
Agreed. He started off ok but then bragging about himself, his family(the nephew going into orthopedics hmmm must not be such a great example since you want to "promote primary care"), and then he went and said something along the lines of OMM could fix the intima of the heart of in CAD pt. I just smfh. Waste of 2 hours of my life I will never get back.

Its people like him who gives us an overall bad name to the allopathic side of the fence and just think he is our "footprint" for the to see.

I know this nephew. He wasn't too amused by me playing tight D on him in basketball games. You should meet the rest of the legendary family. They have a whole hall dedicated to them at KCOM.
 
I know this nephew. He wasn't too amused by me playing tight D on him in basketball games. You should meet the rest of the legendary family. They have a whole hall dedicated to them at KCOM.

Lol I am not surprised in the slightest in all accounts. I will pass on that invite though bro lol.
 
I know this nephew. He wasn't too amused by me playing tight D on him in basketball games. You should meet the rest of the legendary family. They have a whole hall dedicated to them at KCOM.

This guy??
http://www.atsu.edu/support_atsu/SL/
David Levine, DO
Dr. Levine earned his doctor of osteopathic medicine degree from A.T. Still University-Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine (ATSU-KCOM) in 2012. He will complete his orthopedic surgery internship and residency at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey in Stratford, N.J., in the class of 2017, which will make him the first osteopathic surgeon in his family. A fourth generation ATSU-KCOM graduate, he is the son of Steven M. Levine, DO, '78; grandson of Howard M. Levine, DO, '54; and great-grandson of David S. Steinbaum, DO, '30, after whom he was named. While at ATSU-KCOM, Dr. Levine served as president of the Atlas Club, the oldest osteopathic medical fraternity in the United States, and as Intramural Sports chair. He was also a member of the 2009 Rotator Cuff Championship Basketball team. Before attending ATSUKCOM, he was a science teacher and mentor at St. Anthony High School in Jersey City, N.J. He graduated from Muhlenberg College with a bachelor of science degree in 2007. Dr. Levine is a certified U.S. Sailing instructor and enjoys all athletic activities. He is engaged to Krystin A. Engelhardt, DO, '12. Dr. Levine plans to carry on the Steinbaum-Levine family legacy of osteopathic medical care and service.
 
This guy??
http://www.atsu.edu/support_atsu/SL/
David Levine, DO
Dr. Levine earned his doctor of osteopathic medicine degree from A.T. Still University-Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine (ATSU-KCOM) in 2012. He will complete his orthopedic surgery internship and residency at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey in Stratford, N.J., in the class of 2017, which will make him the first osteopathic surgeon in his family. A fourth generation ATSU-KCOM graduate, he is the son of Steven M. Levine, DO, ’78; grandson of Howard M. Levine, DO, ’54; and great-grandson of David S. Steinbaum, DO, ’30, after whom he was named. While at ATSU-KCOM, Dr. Levine served as president of the Atlas Club, the oldest osteopathic medical fraternity in the United States, and as Intramural Sports chair. He was also a member of the 2009 Rotator Cuff Championship Basketball team. Before attending ATSUKCOM, he was a science teacher and mentor at St. Anthony High School in Jersey City, N.J. He graduated from Muhlenberg College with a bachelor of science degree in 2007. Dr. Levine is a certified U.S. Sailing instructor and enjoys all athletic activities. He is engaged to Krystin A. Engelhardt, DO, ’12. Dr. Levine plans to carry on the Steinbaum-Levine family legacy of osteopathic medical care and service.

My jaw just dropped.
 
This guy??
http://www.atsu.edu/support_atsu/SL/
David Levine, DO
Dr. Levine earned his doctor of osteopathic medicine degree from A.T. Still University-Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine (ATSU-KCOM) in 2012. He will complete his orthopedic surgery internship and residency at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey in Stratford, N.J., in the class of 2017, which will make him the first osteopathic surgeon in his family. A fourth generation ATSU-KCOM graduate, he is the son of Steven M. Levine, DO, '78; grandson of Howard M. Levine, DO, '54; and great-grandson of David S. Steinbaum, DO, '30, after whom he was named. While at ATSU-KCOM, Dr. Levine served as president of the Atlas Club, the oldest osteopathic medical fraternity in the United States, and as Intramural Sports chair. He was also a member of the 2009 Rotator Cuff Championship Basketball team. Before attending ATSUKCOM, he was a science teacher and mentor at St. Anthony High School in Jersey City, N.J. He graduated from Muhlenberg College with a bachelor of science degree in 2007. Dr. Levine is a certified U.S. Sailing instructor and enjoys all athletic activities. He is engaged to Krystin A. Engelhardt, DO, '12. Dr. Levine plans to carry on the Steinbaum-Levine family legacy of osteopathic medical care and service.

Yes. Apparently there are even more people in the family that are physicians than I thought.
 
Lets redirect this post to its original intention; DO's against for profit schools. Having worked alongside Caribbean students in my rotations, I've seen first hand the kind of bull their schools put them through. The reason DO's are where we are today is because past DOs have consistently shown to the world that our education and training is equivalent to MD education and philosophy. We don't need a school that churns out students.
 
Lets redirect this post to its original intention; DO's against for profit schools. Having worked alongside Caribbean students in my rotations, I've seen first hand the kind of bull their schools put them through. The reason DO's are where we are today is because past DOs have consistently shown to the world that our education and training is equivalent to MD education and philosophy. We don't need a school that churns out students.

Are more licensed physicians (D.O. in particular) stepping up and making their voices heard regarding this issue? They should send this on over to that TheDO site as well as any other relevant place on can think of. Mind as well get word out to as many venues as possible.

Looking forward to see what kind of response this letter receives. I'd bet the farm that some generic "primary care shortage" BS is splattered all over it though.
 
Dr. Mychaskiw: Please copy your letter to the AOA Board of Trustees as well. It deserves to be read by the entire leadership.
 
Dr. M, you have written an excellent letter that I'm certain will be summarily disregarded by anyone in the AOA and COCA involved with accrediting these 'schools' (aka business ventures). No doubt these folks are being handsomely rewarded for their complicity in bringing osteopathic education back to pre-Flexner standards.
 
Dear Dr. Levine:

In the June 4, "This New England" blog of the Providence (RI) Journal, Stephen Rodger, Founder of the Rhode Island School of Osteopathic Medicine and President of R3 Education discusses and advocates the proposed school and addresses its for-profit status. Frankly, the piece is well-written and one of the more cogent arguments supporting for-profit medical education. Unfortunately, Mr. Rodger omitted some pertinent data that will have potentially negative implications for this profession, should the school be accredited.

Nowhere in the article does he describe the mission and motivations of R3 Education, or even make any reference to R3 Education. His association is only mentioned by the Journal in a brief biographical signature line. R3 Education is a Massachusetts-based holding company that acquires and manages for-profit medical schools in the Caribbean, including Saba University School of Medicine, the Medical University of the Americas and St. Matthew's University. Is it not curious that a company with no ties or historical relationship with osteopathic medicine, whose core business is for-profit MD (allopathic) schools, now wants to open a DO (osteopathic) school in Rhode Island, which is not most people's idea of a state suffering from a physician shortage? Actually, it is just good business. The Caribbean medical school industry is facing a crisis of sorts, as their graduates are finding it increasingly difficult to match into US residency programs. Allopathic and osteopathic school enrollments in the US have greatly increased, while federal funding for residency positions is capped at 1997 levels. Many residency programs in the US no longer consider graduates of Caribbean schools, regardless of their qualifications, as there are ample US applicants. I have personally seen this in multiple ACGME programs and, of course, AOA residency programs have never been open to Caribbean allopathic graduates. So, to protect their business, the Caribbean schools need to open de facto US campuses. The easiest way to do this is by opening osteopathic schools, which are accredited by COCA, a more permissive body than the LCME, which accredits MD schools. The pioneer for this was the Rocky Vista College of Osteopathic Medicine in Denver, whose founder/owner, was associated with the American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine. Its success in opening and operating as the only for-profit medical school in the industrialized world has paved the way for the "Caribbean gold rush", as these institutions look for a way to sustain their business model. Whether or not this is a good thing is subject to debate, but it is disingenuous to argue that the primary motivation behind this school is a humanitarian concern for the health and welfare of the people and state of Rhode Island. Indeed, one of the Deans of Brown University has already commented that for-profit education may be inferior to not-for-profit.

Dr. Levine, is this the future of our profession? Given your history in Osteopathic Medicine, you know far better than me the struggles we have undergone to become a credible and full member of the US medical community. I am concerned that, not only does this tarnish the profession to the public eye, it puts us at jeopardy when difficult decisions are made at the Federal level regarding educational funding and support. When Brown University competes with the Rhode Island Caribbean consortium, who do you think will be left short? Ultimately, we will become doctors of a lesser sort, who will eventually be supplanted by nurse practitioners and other allied health professionals. While the pro and con arguments regarding for-profit education have been discussed ad nauseam, it is basically a question of whether we are "as good as possible", or just "good enough". Do we invest in research and education to the fullest or do we delegate that to the allopathic profession so that the for-profit investors can realize a greater fiscal return?

I well understand the role of COCA and limitations of the AOA. It is also unquestionably true, however, that you, as our president have a bully pulpit and need only to speak out regarding for-profit medical education, as the LCME already does in their accreditation standards. The allopathic profession quite clearly and publicly states that medical education should be non-profit. What say you?

Fraternally,
George Mychaskiw II, DO, FAAP, FACOP
Professor of Anesthesiology
AOA #50323

Dr. Mychaskiw,

As long as the standards of education are kept high, the tax status of the school does not matter. I have attended 3 not-for-profit universities and RVU, the later has been the best by far. It is indeed possible for this model to work well, especially when subjected to intense scrutiny and regulation. Believe it or not, COCA keeps an extremely close eye on RVU.

The price of higher education in general ought to be addressed or this generation will never get out of student debt.When my grandfather attended his masters program, it was $4/credit and due to academic merit his doctorate was funded. It is absolutely clear that simply being not-for-profit on paper does not make an institution of pure intention. Quite commonly the reality is the contrary.
 
I'm sure Caribbean-funded for-profit-schools are *much* purer in intention... Frankly, it makes the whole DO profession look bad because 1) we are the only ones that are doing this 2) while non-profit is flawed, for-profit quickly becomes immoral and suggesting that tuition at such places would be lower is highly ironic.
 
I'm sure Caribbean-funded for-profit-schools are *much* purer in intention... Frankly, it makes the whole DO profession look bad because 1) we are the only ones that are doing this 2) while non-profit is flawed, for-profit quickly becomes immoral and suggesting that tuition at such places would be lower is highly ironic.

I think point number two is the biggest reason. People don't like for-profit schools because what's their main purpose? To make money. Not to educate you, just to make money for their investors. That's not to say RVU doesn't turn out competent physicians, but the for-profit name is lurking in the back of everyone's mind.

I think evidence of this is the RVU match list that got released a while back, it was not impressive at all. All the allo matches are at no-name institutions and very few competetive specialties were matched (and none of those programs were well-known - or known at all.)

The truth of the matter is, whether or not for-profit schools provide the same level of education as a not-for-profit school is debatable, but evidence with caribbean schools shows us they very likely don't. But regardless, PDs and other students look down upon for-profits like RVU and the match list shows that.

Bones, DO - I'm certain you will be a good physician, but you must understand why people are a little hesitant towards the for-profit model, especially as it is a DO program and thus doesn't help the "we're the same thing as a MD" cause that DOs have been working for 50+ years towards.

I can't help but wonder what would have happened if RVU was a US MD school - I think there would have been a massive **** storm and they would have never got accredited.

Also, someone's likely going to bring up Palm Beach Medical College which is applying for US MD as a for-profit, everyone has pretty much accepted that they're never going to get accreditted and likely going to stay in this applicant status-limbo forever.

I will admit, I'm biased against for-profit schools, when I applied two years ago I intentionally didn't apply to RVU solely because they were for-profit.

Instatewaiter had a really good discussion about RVU's match list, and while I don't agree with many of his stances about DOs, one can't argue with his points about RVU and the very lackluster match list.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this post, I promise!
 
Indeed, one of the Deans of Brown University has already commented that for-profit education may be inferior to not-for-profit.

He commented that. So what? You're citing a person's comment but not anything to substantiate it.
 
I think evidence of this is the RVU match list that got released a while back, it was not impressive at all. All the allo matches are at no-name institutions and very few competetive specialties were matched (and none of those programs were well-known - or known at all.)

Isn't this RVU's first match?
 
Isn't this RVU's first match?

I believe so, there was a thread a while back about it with people debating about just how bad the match was - and it was bad. The point being, it's clear RVU students were not well received. I don't think the "this is the first class" excuse applies here.
 
I'm sure Caribbean-funded for-profit-schools are *much* purer in intention... Frankly, it makes the whole DO profession look bad because 1) we are the only ones that are doing this 2) while non-profit is flawed, for-profit quickly becomes immoral and suggesting that tuition at such places would be lower is highly ironic.

I don't believe anyone suggested tuition would be lower at a for-profit school. Regardless of the investors' intentions, COCA ensures the quality of education is the same at RVU as it is at any other DO school they accredit, so the extent of immoralitywill be equal to any other Osteopathic school.
 
I don't believe anyone suggested tuition would be lower at a for-profit school. Regardless of the investors' intentions, COCA ensures the quality of education is the same at RVU as it is at any other DO school they accredit, so the extent of immoralitywill be equal to any other Osteopathic school.

Does COCA truly ensure quality? I think some folks are saying that COCA is the problem.

Quick question though: is there a new AOA residency spot being created for every new DO seat out there?
 
I believe so, there was a thread a while back about it with people debating about just how bad the match was - and it was bad. The point being, it's clear RVU students were not well received. I don't think the "this is the first class" excuse applies here.

Personally, I'd like to see more than N=1, and it's probably going to be another 3-5 years before we really can start judging the match list (enough for students to finish residency) I can understand residencies being wary about the 1st class of a for-profit school, but those two issues reinforce each other. Furthermore, it also depends on who RVU recruits. If their first class was, to an extent, students near the bottom for the same reason (new school + for-profit), then that's another confounding variable. Similarly, if RVU primarily focuses on students looking at primary care, instead of just paying lip service to it like most schools, then they're going to get more primary care residencies, while SDN generally ranks match lists based on the percent that match into specialties. Is a school bad because they have a lot of primary care residencies when they tried to attract students looking into primary care?
 
Personally, I'd like to see more than N=1, and it's probably going to be another 3-5 years before we really can start judging the match list (enough for students to finish residency) I can understand residencies being wary about the 1st class of a for-profit school, but those two issues reinforce each other. Furthermore, it also depends on who RVU recruits. If their first class was, to an extent, students near the bottom for the same reason (new school + for-profit), then that's another confounding variable. Similarly, if RVU primarily focuses on students looking at primary care, instead of just paying lip service to it like most schools, then they're going to get more primary care residencies, while SDN generally ranks match lists based on the percent that match into specialties. Is a school bad because they have a lot of primary care residencies when they tried to attract students looking into primary care?

It is a negative thing when every school honestly seeks out students who they think will do primary care. The assumption that it is lip service is silly because the AOA is very very very proactively growing IM and FM residencies (almost) exclusively. The schools truly are looking for people to fill those spots. If every single school is looking for people to fill primary care (And yes they know that students all say that but only x% of them mean it), then the ones who are outliers are the odd ones.

Someone said once in another thread that there is no magical number for the primary care percentage. But there is. Ignoring a few super high end MD schools you will see that MD schools routinely put out 38-45% (my apologies if the number is off. I know its a 7 percent window somewhere in the 30's and 40's) primary care with very little variation outside of that. A few schools regularly hit 50%, a few regularly get under 30%. But in both cases these tend to be elite schools (where the students either end up at all the elite IM programs thus hitting 50% or all the elite specialties thus being sub 30%).

DO schools pretty much always pull 52-60% primary care from what I've seen. This is my personal measurement, so dont sue me if this one has exceptions. The MD number has been cited before by people I've met who study this crap. The DO numbers are just my little fun calculations I've done in the last few years when match lists pop up.

The point being that if you are suddenly putting out a higher percent than everyone else... something is up. IDK what... but something is up. When all the schools put out effectively the exact same percent, breaking that mold is odd. Even in your first year (check out the first year match lists from last years 2/3 new schools. the primary care rate was right in range)
 
... as an aside, there was a giant advertisement for AUC right next to your post, and one for SGU on the top of the page when I opened this link. Just thought that was ironic..

Adblock
 
just want to bump this so more are likely to read Dr. Mychaskiw's letter.
 
Nice and all, but SDN funding is through those ads, primarily. And, not everyone donates (their time or money).

Is funding based on views or clicks?
 
Dr. Mychaskiw,

As long as the standards of education are kept high, the tax status of the school does not matter. I have attended 3 not-for-profit universities and RVU, the later has been the best by far. It is indeed possible for this model to work well, especially when subjected to intense scrutiny and regulation. Believe it or not, COCA keeps an extremely close eye on RVU.

The price of higher education in general ought to be addressed or this generation will never get out of student debt.When my grandfather attended his masters program, it was $4/credit and due to academic merit his doctorate was funded. It is absolutely clear that simply being not-for-profit on paper does not make an institution of pure intention. Quite commonly the reality is the contrary.

Bones, don't you think you are a little biased since it was one of those 3 not-for-profit schools that dismissed you and RVU accepted you afterwards?

While being not-for-profit does not make an institution of pure intent, being for-profit DOES make them of unpure intent. If a school were interested only in the student's education, there would be no reason to be for-profit, especially since there are so many hurdles to becoming a for-profit medical school.

Almost universally, the for-profit schools (medical and non-medical) put out a shitty product.

I think evidence of this is the RVU match list that got released a while back, it was not impressive at all. All the allo matches are at no-name institutions and very few competetive specialties were matched (and none of those programs were well-known - or known at all.)

Here is my previous post Re:RVU's match list since sileni brought it up:

So the match list is evidence that the school was not well received. Let me tell you why:

First- there were very, very few allopathic matches.

1) There are few specialty matches,
While this could mean most people wanted primary care, it often means people could not match into something better. Since others have noted that we are "missing" ~30 people from the original class, I'm gonna guess it is the latter.

2) The anesthesia match and EM matchest were mediocre. There are just a few decent matches in this group. Only one that could be considered good.

3) Very few surgery and surgical subspecialties. Could be personal preference and you would expect more good peds/FM/IM matches. However we don't see these good matches.

5) The IM match is bad. There is no way to hide this one under the rug.
Notice almost all the matches are to community programs, most with 350 beds or less (Parkview, Plaza, Verde Valley, Bay Area Medical center and many, many more). Hell, Verde valley has fewer than 100 beds. So does Bay Area medical center. Many IM residencies have more residents than these places have beds. I'm not even sure you can call 72 beds a hospital (for reference my medicine program has 250 beds for internal medicine alone).

The sheer fact that there aren't many specialty matches and then the IM match is not good leads me to believe that program directors didn't look at RVU grads favorably. And, because these places are all over the west and midwest, it's not as if people wanted to stay near RVU and chose crappy programs to be near family.

6) The peds match isn't good. Again very similar reasons to medicine.

So in the end, you have few specialty matches, few university programs, a bunch of people who didn't match and thus far haven't been able to scramble (osteo and allo scramble have already been) and a lot of community programs.




I don't believe anyone suggested tuition would be lower at a for-profit school. Regardless of the investors' intentions, COCA ensures the quality of education is the same at RVU as it is at any other DO school they accredit, so the extent of immoralitywill be equal to any other Osteopathic school.

Well, your statement is belied by the fact that coca's standards are pretty damn low. I mean, they did actually accredit a for-profit medical school.
 
Well, your statement is belied by the fact that coca's standards are pretty damn low. I mean, they did actually accredit a for-profit medical school.

Im all with you on all your points. I just wanted to point out that I just spent the last 3 days having every MD student at the AMA meeting who identified me as a DO student ask me the same two questions.

1) what are your thoughts on RVUCOM
and
2) Are you aware LCME is going to accredit (provisionally, and only "at this point") two for-profit schools.

I'm no fan of them. But the standards end up being much more similar than people seem to realize. The AMA, generally speaking, uses the LCME and COCA accreditation standards interchangeably and never needs to address one or the other specifically since there are so few differences at any level. Even the for profit one is more of a legacy of following the intent of LCME rules, rather than the word of them, which does technically allow for it.
 
2) Are you aware LCME is going to accredit (provisionally, and only "at this point") two for-profit schools.

Yeah, it's well known that the for-profit school applying for LCME accreditation will never get it, so it's kind of a moot point. Palm Beach will never ever become accredited and if it got the point where it even had a chance of accreditation there would be a gigantic **** storm in the MD community.
 
Yeah, it's well known that the for-profit school applying for LCME accreditation will never get it, so it's kind of a moot point. Palm Beach will never ever become accredited and if it got the point where it even had a chance of accreditation there would be a gigantic **** storm in the MD community.

Except that its two schools not one. and while ive privately been told otherwise the lcme reps just came out and said their fornal stance is it will be unimpeded though closely watched, as there are, as of yet, no grounds to fight it on.

But ****storm.... yes. And thats why rvucom doesnt exist. oh wait.
 
Except that its two schools not one. and while ive privately been told otherwise the lcme reps just came out and said their fornal stance is it will be unimpeded though closely watched, as there are, as of yet, no grounds to fight it on.

But ****storm.... yes. And thats why rvucom doesnt exist. oh wait.

All purely speculative. Let's see what happens, as I know Palm Beach has been "applicant" status for about 2+ years now. Btw, applicant status is mindless easy to get it's pretty much pay this fee.
 
All purely speculative. Let's see what happens, as I know Palm Beach has been "applicant" status for about 2+ years now. Btw, applicant status is mindless easy to get it's pretty much pay this fee.

Saying its speculative is incorrect. That is the formally stated stance of the lcme. that they anticipate them to pass accreditation, but will be closely monitored. I have heard private comments from those within the lcme that do indeed agree it will be a game of chicken. I was just shocked to hear a formal (though metered) acceptance of it. Dismissing that comment is as knowingly naiave as saying it faces no hurdles.
 
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/news-and-publications/blogs/presidents-blog/default.aspx
He got a response:
"Dr. Mychaskiw:

Thank you for your post to the blog (see Dr. Mychaskiw's post in comments below). I want to start out by saying that a feasibility study has not been submitted by the proposed Rhode Island School of Osteopathic Medicine to the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) so it would be premature to say anything as to how the organizer of this projected school would structure its governance. However, the agendas of the COCA are posted to its website approximately 60 days in advance of a meeting and list actions to come before the COCA. You are welcome to present written testimony to the COCA in support of or in opposition to any developing COM, if that is your wish. You may also request to be present for oral testimony. Instructions for submitting such testimony, due 30 days in advance of the COCA meeting, are provided on the website.

What I can say is that since Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine submitted a feasibility study requesting pre-accreditation from COCA six years ago, the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) has also received a request to accredit an allopathic medical school as a for-profit institution—Palm Beach Medical College in Florida. If you visit the LCME website, you'll see it listed as an applicant school.

Regarding research and education, COCA has been clear in holding its accredited colleges of osteopathic medicine (COMs) to the requirements for research. Although not all COMs are as aggressive as the profession's leaders in research, we have seen significant development in some of the institutions. As for education, the COMs have a record of curricular innovation in the first two years and in the latter two years with focused tracking programs. Many new COMs are aggressively developing new GME opportunities.

Lastly, I need to reiterate that the AOA does not start nor does it operate osteopathic medical education at the predoctoral and postdoctoral levels. Given the high level of interest by the Department of Justice in reviewing anti-trust activities of professional associations (trade or individual membership-based) that may violate the anti-trust laws, using a bully pulpit to exclude one group of competitors only increases the anti-trust risks to the AOA.

Marty"
 
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/news-and-publications/blogs/presidents-blog/default.aspx
He got a response:
"Dr. Mychaskiw:

Thank you for your post to the blog (see Dr. Mychaskiw's post in comments below). I want to start out by saying that a feasibility study has not been submitted by the proposed Rhode Island School of Osteopathic Medicine to the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) so it would be premature to say anything as to how the organizer of this projected school would structure its governance. However, the agendas of the COCA are posted to its website approximately 60 days in advance of a meeting and list actions to come before the COCA. You are welcome to present written testimony to the COCA in support of or in opposition to any developing COM, if that is your wish. You may also request to be present for oral testimony. Instructions for submitting such testimony, due 30 days in advance of the COCA meeting, are provided on the website.

What I can say is that since Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine submitted a feasibility study requesting pre-accreditation from COCA six years ago, the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) has also received a request to accredit an allopathic medical school as a for-profit institution—Palm Beach Medical College in Florida. If you visit the LCME website, you'll see it listed as an applicant school.

Regarding research and education, COCA has been clear in holding its accredited colleges of osteopathic medicine (COMs) to the requirements for research. Although not all COMs are as aggressive as the profession's leaders in research, we have seen significant development in some of the institutions. As for education, the COMs have a record of curricular innovation in the first two years and in the latter two years with focused tracking programs. Many new COMs are aggressively developing new GME opportunities.

Lastly, I need to reiterate that the AOA does not start nor does it operate osteopathic medical education at the predoctoral and postdoctoral levels. Given the high level of interest by the Department of Justice in reviewing anti-trust activities of professional associations (trade or individual membership-based) that may violate the anti-trust laws, using a bully pulpit to exclude one group of competitors only increases the anti-trust risks to the AOA.

Marty"

Evasive much? Nothing like dodging the issues with excuses...

He does not directly address the concerns brought up by Dr. Mychaskiw (actually he dances around them), nor does it appear to be a well thought out response.
 
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Evasive much? Nothing like dodging the issues with excuses...

He does not directly address the concerns brought up by Dr. Mychaskiw (actually he dances around them), nor does it appear to be a well thought out response.

I think he basically said:

1.) It's okay because there's a for-profit school trying to get accreditation from the LCME
2.) The issue isn't within my scope of responsibilities
3.) Even if it were, I wouldn't care...PS DO's are awesome--we have great education and research opportunities!

A very typical AOA yes-man type response, IMO.
 
I think he basically said:

1.) It's okay because there's a for-profit school trying to get accreditation from the LCME
2.) The issue isn't within my scope of responsibilities
3.) Even if it were, I wouldn't care...PS DO's are awesome--we have great education and research opportunities!

A very typical AOA yes-man type response, IMO.

exactly.
 
Did that response come stamped with a turd or what?
 
while it is not in my interest to comment on this much further (some things are way above my paygrade ).... I do have to admit I enjoy that he signed it marty
 
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