DPM vs Ortho Foot Surgeon

And Pktgresch throws any parity argument right out the window. Unfortunately the military is one place where parity does not exist. Only the navy offers scholarships (unlike MD/DO) and all branches pay you as an allied health professional, meaning you are a lower rank that an MD/DO would be...I mean, that quote you posted doesn't reek of typical military recruitment publications or anything.

Anyways, I wasn't sure how true my earlier point about the whole inferiority complex within our profession vs a superiority complex from others. I am now. Thanks traum and danish for clearing that up.

dtrack22 said:

And Pktgresch throws any parity argument right out the window. Unfortunately the military is one place where parity does not exist. Only the navy offers scholarships (unlike MD/DO) and all branches pay you as an allied health professional, meaning you are a lower rank that an MD/DO would be...I mean, that quote you posted doesn't reek of typical military recruitment publications or anything.

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Did not know that, thanks for the info.

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dtrack22 said:

And Pktgresch throws any parity argument right out the window. Unfortunately the military is one place where parity does not exist. Only the navy offers scholarships (unlike MD/DO) and all branches pay you as an allied health professional, meaning you are a lower rank that an MD/DO would be...I mean, that quote you posted doesn't reek of typical military recruitment publications or anything.

Anyways, I wasn't sure how true my earlier point about the whole inferiority complex within our profession vs a superiority complex from others. I am now. Thanks traum and danish for clearing that up.

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As a current army officer and former navy corpsman I would like to clarify the whole misconceptions being posted in regards to parity between the MD/DO/DPM. All graduates regardless of what is behind your name whether it be M.D., D.O., or D.P.M. enter your respective service as a O-3/ CPT army and air force and LT in the Navy. This means that everyone gets paid the same no matter what your specialty is. A neurosurgeon makes the same salary as a podiatrist. Look it up on the yearly military pay tables. Other bonuses i.e board specialty pay is calculated a little differently based on the supply and demand of the specialist. As far as the Navy offering a scholarship it is because the Navy has a more urgent need for podiatrist than the Army or Air Force. However with that being said the navy does not have a residency which means that you will have to compete for a civilian residency during the CASPR cycle. The army has the only paid military surgical podiatry residency. If you match for the Womack/ D.D Eisenhower residency you will be commissioned on Active duty in the U.S Army as a CPT. After about 5-6 years of Active service( which includes time spent in residency) you will be promoted. As far as parity is concerned I can tell you that in the military the Podiatrist is the Foot and ankle specialist. Most orthopedic surgeons don't want to touch any portion of the human body form the anterior tibial tuberosity down. It is true that you will be classified as an MSC (Medical Service Corps) rather than a MC (Medical Corps) officer. This is not for reasons that most would assume it is because in order for the military branches to reorganize or reclassify MOS's or military occupational specialties it must be passed through legislature. Which as you know is not easy especially with the armed forces. In all branches Air Force, Army, and Navy once you commission you attend officer indoctrination for healthcare providers MD/DO/DPM are grouped together, while pharmacist, dentist, and other providers attend their own separate introduction course to military healthcare. So as far as so called parity in the military you are a doctor because in the eyes of that airmen, soldier, sailor, marine, or family member you are doctor as long as you can fix the problem. Hope this helps

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It's pretty sobering to read Danish4me's posts. Makes me realize how far the profession has come.

armypod said:

As a current army officer and former navy corpsman I would like to clarify the whole misconceptions being posted in regards to parity between the MD/DO/DPM. All graduates regardless of what is behind your name whether it be M.D., D.O., or D.P.M. enter your respective service as a O-3/ CPT army and air force and LT in the Navy. This means that everyone gets paid the same no matter what your specialty is. A neurosurgeon makes the same salary as a podiatrist. Look it up on the yearly military pay tables. Other bonuses i.e board specialty pay is calculated a little differently based on the supply and demand of the specialist. As far as the Navy offering a scholarship it is because the Navy has a more urgent need for podiatrist than the Army or Air Force. However with that being said the navy does not have a residency which means that you will have to compete for a civilian residency during the CASPR cycle. The army has the only paid military surgical podiatry residency. If you match for the Womack/ D.D Eisenhower residency you will be commissioned on Active duty in the U.S Army as a CPT. After about 5-6 years of Active service( which includes time spent in residency) you will be promoted. As far as parity is concerned I can tell you that in the military the Podiatrist is the Foot and ankle specialist. Most orthopedic surgeons don't want to touch any portion of the human body form the anterior tibial tuberosity down. It is true that you will be classified as an MSC (Medical Service Corps) rather than a MC (Medical Corps) officer. This is not for reasons that most would assume it is because in order for the military branches to reorganize or reclassify MOS's or military occupational specialties it must be passed through legislature. Which as you know is not easy especially with the armed forces. In all branches Air Force, Army, and Navy once you commission you attend officer indoctrination for healthcare providers MD/DO/DPM are grouped together, while pharmacist, dentist, and other providers attend their own separate introduction course to military healthcare. So as far as so called parity in the military you are a doctor because in the eyes of that airmen, soldier, sailor, marine, or family member you are doctor as long as you can fix the problem. Hope this helps

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Yes, thank you very much, I personally appreciate the info from some one who is in the field. I am very interested in the military path to practice podiatric medicine, and have only come to posses a passion for podiatry second to becoming a servicemen. Thanks a lot, that is great to know, and that pretty much reaffirmed my beliefs about what podaitric medicine is in the service. I wish there were more residency opportunities, in terms of every branch having one, but that could be because not many new grads want to go into the service? Then again I am just speculating here.

Armypod, can you provide any comment on the "military" podiatry scope of practice? Thanks for your input.

Got it, thanks armypod. All the rank stuff has always confused me. I knew that pods were MSC and had seen some pay scale table for those individuals...but it was special pay and not what is apparently everyday pay based on rank.

I still disagree on the scholarship idea though. The reason other branches don't have them is because they either don't have the money or don't want DPMs. If podiatrists are truly the foot and ankle specialists in the military, then all 3 branches would be throwing out scholarships to fill a huge need...

heybrother said:

Armypod, can you provide any comment on the "military" podiatry scope of practice? Thanks for your input.

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It is funny you ask that because I have read student doctor post for numerous years as to weather podiatrist are "real doctors". I must say it is always makes me laugh. In the military the scope of practice is so different than the civilian sector it would make the average persons head spin. I don't care if any one disagree's or agree's but you as a podiatrist in the military are a doctor. There is something in a podiatrist training that he receives in residency called "surgery" that qualifies you as a specialist within your area of expertise. The military knows that and they are going to throw every type of surgery that you have performed during your residency and then some at you. You will receive advanced courses in AO microsurgery, orthopedic pathology, and much more. Physicians, doctors, clinicians, or what ever a person wants to call themselves in the military have one job and that job is to take care of service members and their families. In war if someone suffers a gunshot wound and a podiatrist is the only surgical specialist around there is no waiting around for a general surgeon. It can and it will happen. I have seen it. So trust when I say that podiatrist are just as educated as their allopathic and osteopathic counterparts.This is not to say that you can do as much as a general surgeon can. However a general surgeon can not do what a podiatrist can either. Not to say that the military just allows everyone to operate out of their scope of practice because they don't. However you will just do so much more such as working with amputees, lots and lots of foot and ankle lower extremity trauma. You will also work with a large diabetic population in certain areas such as walter reed national military medical center, magian, and tripler to name a few. Army wise depending on where you are stationed you could work within the vascular, orthopedic or stand alone podiatry service. Military podiatrist truly are specialist and do a lot of teaching and educating of medical students and professionals whether practicing or in residency training. Total joint replacement, Ankle reconstruction, external and internal fixators, shockwave therapy, forefoot, rear foot surgery, wound care etc. You name it you fix. Like in the civilian sector it is what procedures that you are most comfortable performing. The way that you would treat patients in the civilian sector to make a name for yourself is no different in the military. Like anything else it is what you make of it.

I know we are drifting o/t but hey, I'm a little ADD and the old topic was BOOOORRRRINNNNGGG J/k 😉

armypod, can you describe your experience with deployments? Have you ever been stationed abroad, near combat zones, etc? I know its getting out of your area of expertise but how about the navy for deployments?

I ask because I very much want the navy scholarship, I've lost 25 lbs so far to make weight (I'm 6'4 and need to get down to 234, 9 more lbs to go!)

dtrack22 said:

Got it, thanks armypod. All the rank stuff has always confused me. I knew that pods were MSC and had seen some pay scale table for those individuals...but it was special pay and not what is apparently everyday pay based on rank.

I still disagree on the scholarship idea though. The reason other branches don't have them is because they either don't have the money or don't want DPMs. If podiatrists are truly the foot and ankle specialists in the military, then all 3 branches would be throwing out scholarships to fill a huge need...

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As far as scholarships go for allopathic and osteopathic students it really is a game of numbers. Each year the military has about 250-300 HPSP scholarships to give out in order to fill vacant positions left by physicians or clinical providers( dentist,optometry, psychologist,psychiatric nurses) retiring from the service or just plain getting out of the military. The scholarships are given in the following priority Army, Navy, Air Force with each branch being given a little more slots or positions than the other. For obvious reasons it is set up this way because of who fights the majority of wars and the amount of support required. I will try and paint a picture for everyone how the scholarship process works. Lets say that FY 2013 has 300 scholarships to award the Army gets 150 the Navy 100 and the AF 50. For all the scholarships available to each branch all medical specialties will come form those numbers for any particular given year. The less amount of scholarships to award the more selective. AF very selective because of small awards to offer. Each year the numbers change. Now remember the Navy is the only branch that awards scholarships for podiatry students. Only 100 scholarships will be awarded to recipients that will include allopathic/osteopathic, optometry, dental matriculants or students for that given year and it is all based on the needs of the service. For the class of 2016 the Navy only awarded 2 HPSP/podiatry scholarships. This is for good reason. Like the civilian sector the major need for physicians or healthcare providers is in primary care. Podiatrist are specialist like neurosurgeons, orthopedic surgeons, etc. About 85-90 percent of physicians in the military are internist, family practitioners, and general medical officers(no residency training yet). Specialist are abundant but very few in terms of the big picture. For every one that takes a military HPSP scholarship it is "mandatory" that they do a military residency. Even dentist must do something called AEGD. Dentist may have it a little harder because they can't go straight to orthodontics, or endodontics, etc because they have to do their general dentistry tour first. As for medicine more sought after specialties like orthopedics there is only about 4 positions for PGY1 in the entire military and 1 for nuerosurgery. So playing the number game if you had 300 graduates roughly 5 will be able to do the most popular residency. If you threw surgery in there it is still a small number. Now you say wow only 2 scholarships the Navy offers for podiatry students. The ratio works out to be marginal in comparison to the martriculants of allopathic, osteopathic, and dental schools etc. Podiatry roughly has 650 ,matriculants, while allopathic has fifty something thousand, osteopathic 11,000 and I still have not included the number of matriculants for dental and optometry school. With all this being said these numbers do not include the students already enrolled that apply for scholarships also. After it is all said and done you really have well over 100,000 students that could potentially apply for the HPSP scholarship. At least as podiatrist we know what we will be doing upon graduation instead of the poor souls who want to do surgery but end up matching for family medicine. Yes I say poor souls because recruiters will never explain these numbers. One last thing as far as scholarships goes. The Navy offers a scholarship called the Health Collegiate Scholarship Program (HCSP) which will pay you up to 250,000 while doing a Podiatric Surgical Residency. This has a value of 3500-5100 dollars a month depending on where you are doing you residency. This program is only available after graduation and you can do your residency anywhere you match except (Womack as that is Army specific). With this you should be able to pay off your student loans or reduce it significantly. Of course this would be in exchange for military service a year for year of money received. IMO I think podiatry scholarships will continue to be small because most military podiatrist stay until they retire because of the benefits. For someone who is a O-6/COL right now they would make roughly 130K a year in base salary (the only portion taxed by the IRS) + 36K for housing and 3600 a year for food. Not to mention you do not have to pay medical coverage 15k plus a year for a family and also no malpractice insurance which on average is about 24k. I also did not add in board specialty pay. So taking all things in account this has a value of about 200k give or take a year. Also another perk is that at the ends of 20 years that person would receive 65k a year for the rest of their life in retirement tax free depending on what state they live in and if they did 30 years they would receive about 90k give or take. This why the military does not hurt for podiatrist. I hope that this clarifies any mysteries.

I wish all the info outlined by the armypod can be permanently put on this site for others to refer to in the future.

Ferocity said:

Mods really need to crack down on these trolls with multiple accounts

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dude, just because somebody has a negative opinion about something doesnt mean they are a troll or that they don't have a seat at the table. If you don't have something to contribute to real conversation like this then don't

RockFoot said:

I know we are drifting o/t but hey, I'm a little ADD and the old topic was BOOOORRRRINNNNGGG J/k 😉

armypod, can you describe your experience with deployments? Have you ever been stationed abroad, near combat zones, etc? I know its getting out of your area of expertise but how about the navy for deployments?

I ask because I very much want the navy scholarship, I've lost 25 lbs so far to make weight (I'm 6'4 and need to get down to 234, 9 more lbs to go!)

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As far as deployments are concerned the experience is very different for officers than it is an enlisted member. When I deployed I was enlisted in the navy as a corpsman. Now I am an Army Officer 6 years Navy 6 years Army. I won't bs you with combat because it differs were you are, however with that being said this is a general rule of thumb medical officers, dental officers, healthcare providers etc are to valuable to the military to be on the front lines. This is generally speaking. Corpsmen which is equivalent to an army medic will be the ones on the battlefield and front lines generally they will stabilize the war fighters in the field and get them back to you in the rear to provide definitive treatment. Generally speaking healthcare officers do not go into very hostile areas. With that being said it is the military so there is an essence of some inherent danger just by the nature of the job. No one ever likes war of course however it is an experience unlike no other. Other than the usual deployments of the current world status I did get the opportunity to go to Haiti on a humanitarian mission. It was awesome because we were able provide a lot of medical care to individuals who would not have received it otherwise. It makes you appreciate being a U.S citizen. As a Naval healthcare officer you will more than like be stationed aboard the USNS COMFORT or Mercy going on humanitarian mission or station with marines in Camp Lejeune or Pendelton. Marines take care of their "DOCS" Don't worry about the weight because at your height and weight you are within standards or if not should be within body fat which is like 26%

air bud said:

If you don't have something to contribute to real conversation like this then don't

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I think I'd better just delete my account, LOL.

armypod said:

Marines take care of their "DOCS"

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I found your entire post enlightening. Can you expound on the above statement a bit more please?

air bud said:

dude, just because somebody has a negative opinion about something doesnt mean they are a troll or that they don't have a seat at the table. If you don't have something to contribute to real conversation like this then don't

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Some of the troll posts have already been deleted. If you don't like what I post then whine some more about it.

yeah, the recruiter said that at my height according to the navy body fat calc, I need to be 234lbs, but I'm getting there!! THe HCSP sounds very interesting. Stick around these forums, you sir, are a goldmine!!

NatCh said:

I found your entire post enlightening. Can you expound on the above statement a bit more please?

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Marines don't have their own healthcare department so the Navy provides all medical support to Marines in combat. Although the Marine Corps is it's own entity it still is under the department of Navy. Not to discredit anyone's personal choice but in my own experience most Navy healthcare providers elect to go on ships for operational tours instead of getting stationed with marines because they will not be in theatre where wars are fought. Most not all! The Marines admire and respect medical providers that are willing to go on the front lines to take care of them when they are hurt. Marines love their "DOCS" and this means Doctors, Dentist, Nurse, Corpsman etc because they take care of them and get them back in the fight. The Marines that I served with made sure that their "DOCS" were out of harms way. In their eyes you keep their team going.If one gets hurt you fix them to get them back in the fight.

Say that I wanted to become an Army Pod my self, is residency the only way or the best way to get in? I have looked into becoming a servicemen, without knowing Podiatry was what I would (hopefully) be going into, and as such have spoken with a few recruiters. All I ever heard was to speak with a recruiter as soon as I gain acceptance into school. So, while I am sure I can get some answers from recruiters, would you mind explaining how to make being a Pod in the Army a reality? From my understanding, there is one Army residency, with four opportunities a year? I can shoot for that, note what I did there, but if that does not work out, what are the odds of serving in the Army as a Pod after completing a civilian residency? I appreciate any help and I will be sure to contact a recruiter as soon as I get in.

armypod said:

Marines don't have their own healthcare department so the Navy provides all medical support to Marines in combat. Although the Marine Corps is it's own entity it still is under the department of Navy. Not to discredit anyone's personal choice but in my own experience most Navy healthcare providers elect to go on ships for operational tours instead of getting stationed with marines because they will not be in theatre where wars are fought. Most not all! The Marines admire and respect medical providers that are willing to go on the front lines to take care of them when they are hurt. Marines love their "DOCS" and this means Doctors, Dentist, Nurse, Corpsman etc because they take care of them and get them back in the fight. The Marines that I served with made sure that their "DOCS" were out of harms way. In their eyes you keep their team going.If one gets hurt you fix them to get them back in the fight.

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That's quite interesting. Thank you very much.

I have a question for you. How long are podiatrist deployed vs. MD/DO officers? I once read somewhere that there is a difference in duration. I also found on the army site that MD/DOs get 30 days paid vacation annually as a benefit. Do podiatrist not get similar benefits?

I don't know much about it so I apologies if these questions seem a bit silly.

[Edit]
I also see in the job description of physicians on goarmy.com they "Exercise command of medical units as provided by law and regulation" and they are required to do research. Is none of that true for a podiatrist? Do they not command any medical units or do much research?

as far as exercise in command, I am pretty sure that many mds and dos are not happy with the military because it allows nurses to exercise command over them if the nurse outranks the doctor. that being said I am sure the same applies for podiatrist.

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Pktgresch said:

Say that I wanted to become an Army Pod my self, is residency the only way or the best way to get in? I have looked into becoming a servicemen, without knowing Podiatry was what I would (hopefully) be going into, and as such have spoken with a few recruiters. All I ever heard was to speak with a recruiter as soon as I gain acceptance into school. So, while I am sure I can get some answers from recruiters, would you mind explaining how to make being a Pod in the Army a reality? From my understanding, there is one Army residency, with four opportunities a year? I can shoot for that, note what I did there, but if that does not work out, what are the odds of serving in the Army as a Pod after completing a civilian residency? I appreciate any help and I will be sure to contact a recruiter as soon as I get in.

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The Army residency is not the only source to commission as an army podiatrist. The Womack residency is sort of a bonus for graduating podiatrist because in that residency you would make on average about 30k a year more than the average resident (including MD/DO) across the country. You would also not pay for medical nor malpractice fees during residency. The time spent in residency would go towards your retirement if you chose to retire from the military. This is of course if you were selected for the womack residency. However the website go army.com does provide information on how to become a military podiatrist. The MOS that you would be looking for is 67G which is the designator for a army podiatrist. The only requirements that you would need is a DPM and one year of residency. This route has a lot of pros to it because you could do your residency anywhere and then enter the army service. In short graduate undergrade enter pod school, if you do not get selected for the womack residency just apply to commission during your first year of residency. The second route is a little bit easier

BioPod said:

I have a question for you. How long are podiatrist deployed vs. MD/DO officers? I once read somewhere that there is a difference in duration. I also found on the army site that MD/DOs get 30 days paid vacation annually as a benefit. Do podiatrist not get similar benefits?

I don't know much about it so I apologies if these questions seem a bit silly.

[Edit]
I also see in the job description of physicians on goarmy.com they "Exercise command of medical units as provided by law and regulation" and they are required to do research. Is none of that true for a podiatrist? Do they not command any medical units or do much research?

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All military service members are given 30 days paid vacation a year. It is earned at a rate of 2.5 days per month. One of the perks of doing military residencies is that you are still given that same 30 days a year. Vacation is standard across the board. It also does not include federal holidays, those days are extra. Army Medicine (AMEDD) is unique in that it generally does not deploy medical personal longer than 6 months at time during war/conflicts. Normally your job is pretty much 0730-1630 M-F with about 1.5 hrs in between for lunch and going to the gym if you want. MD/DO deploy a lot but because podiatrist are so specialized they rarely deploy. It is not uncommon to deploy however most times when a podiatrist deploys it shuts down foot and ankle service in their home station because they are the specialist. However their are opportunities to be stationed over seas at military hospitals such as germany, korea, japan, etc. Podiatrist can lead medical command such as being the commanding officer of the hospital or medical detachments of units. However this is something that happens once you achieve the O-5/LTC and O-6/COL ranks. Most podiatrist don't want to because it is minimal patient care and mostly administrative, which means clinical skills are almost none existant upon retirement form service. Research is not required however it is abundant if you want it. One of the fellowship programs that is operated and ran by the army is at Madigan Army Medical Center is Washington state. As a fellow you will do two years of research and training under the vascular surgery department. Hope this clarifies some .

RockFoot said:

as far as exercise in command, I am pretty sure that many mds and dos are not happy with the military because it allows nurses to exercise command over them if the nurse outranks the doctor. that being said I am sure the same applies for podiatrist.

Sent from my SPH-D600 using SDN Mobile

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Within their particular specialties and service nurses do not exercise authority over doctors. Yes the rank is respected however nurses don't tell doctor's what to do when it comes to practicing medicine nor does a doctor tell a nurse how to do their job. Their is a form of mutual respect and professional courtesy. When nurses graduate nursing school they enter as an O-1/2LT army/af and ensign in the navy. They will at most be an O-2/1LT army/af or LtJG in the navy. While doctors enter as O-3/CPT in the army/af or LT in the Navy. When you see O-4 nurses and O-5 etc it usually associated with longevity for pay purposes. The higher in rank you are the more you get paid. Nurses in those ranks tend to be more administrative such as being the Director of Nursing Services, Director of Branch Clinics, or even CO's an XO's of hospitals and medical commands. It is no different in the civilian sector because their are nurses that are heads of hospitals such as being CEO's so it is not uncommon for Nurses to be in charge. Case in point the Surgeon General of the Army is a Nurse however she still has to consult with Doctors, or other professionals that is not within her are of expertise. The surgeon general of the medical department of all the branches is a three star position which is the second higher military rank you can achieve.

armypod said:

All military service members are given 30 days paid vacation a year. It is earned at a rate of 2.5 days per month. One of the perks of doing military residencies is that you are still given that same 30 days a year. Vacation is standard across the board. It also does not include federal holidays, those days are extra. Army Medicine (AMEDD) is unique in that it generally does not deploy medical personal longer than 6 months at time during war/conflicts. Normally your job is pretty much 0730-1630 M-F with about 1.5 hrs in between for lunch and going to the gym if you want. MD/DO deploy a lot but because podiatrist are so specialized they rarely deploy. It is not uncommon to deploy however most times when a podiatrist deploys it shuts down foot and ankle service in their home station because they are the specialist. However their are opportunities to be stationed over seas at military hospitals such as germany, korea, japan, etc. Podiatrist can lead medical command such as being the commanding officer of the hospital or medical detachments of units. However this is something that happens once you achieve the O-5/LTC and O-6/COL ranks. Most podiatrist don't want to because it is minimal patient care and mostly administrative, which means clinical skills are almost none existant upon retirement form service. Research is not required however it is abundant if you want it. One of the fellowship programs that is operated and ran by the army is at Madigan Army Medical Center is Washington state. As a fellow you will do two years of research and training under the vascular surgery department. Hope this clarifies some .

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Thank you very much for your answer. 🙂

Great stuff armypod, I think there are a lot of us little pods considering a military route, thanks again for your input!

Nothing but the absolute respect for ANYONE who puts their tuchas on the line for their country. Thank you to all our servicemen.

SuperFeisty said:

1) I don't think people walking around saying, sup, I got a 34 on my MCAT... if so, I am very very sorry for them. 1 superficial test doesn't mean anything.

2) On the contrary, I heard Scholl med students are very accepting of their pod counterparts. They go through the same courses and have similarly rough academic schedules. Of course this is from the student tour guides, but speaking with students at my tour did not give me any impression of negativity with pods vs meds.

3) Comparing a possible MD in podiatry school with an individual surrounded by 5 year olds? Very Sheldon-esque of you sir.

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Same can be said at Midwestern. The pod and DO med students get along great, and the pod students often get higher scores on tests (this coming from a private practice pod who also moonlights as an instructor there!).

OP, if you're still around, have you decided anything?