Best Residency Programs Overall?

Please let me refer you to this previous discussion.

I think what you see in that thread is what you're going to get here. *shrug*

I'm only a stupid MS3 at this point There are lots of really smart EM residents around here somewhere.

USF, Univ of Maryland, Univ of FL, Metrohealth.

yeah, I'm pretty biased, but I never rotated, interviewed, or know that much about other programs besides baseless rumors.

While it is an honor to have my program nominated, I can proudly say that the best program will be where you are happiest, which for me is where I am.

Personally, I've heard great things about Carolinas Med Ctr, Denver, Cinci, Highland, and UCLA-Harbor. The funny thing is that I didn't go to interviews at any of these programs b/c I want to live in the NE or midwest. Of the places I interviewed at, I was impressed by Hopkins and Cook County. I have also hear good things about NYU-Bellevue.

Every accredited program is going to train qualified emergency physicians. Residency is what you make of it, work hard, read when you can, enjoy your time off. Find someplace where you think you would fit in with the residents, staff and city.

NinerNiner999 said:

While it is an honor to have my program nominated, I can proudly say that the best program will be where you are happiest, which for me is where I am.

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Agree with above resident note.

This discussion comes up every few months, but it seems like the conclusions are almost always the same: 1. The best program is the one that 'fits' your personality 2. The best program is where you match, and 3. EM programs are tightly regulated by the RRC, so there are probably more similarities than differences.

A lot of what you consider the best will boil down to geography and the characteristics of the community around the hospital. At least that's my opinion.


PS - Having said all that, Maricopa is unequivocally the best residency program out there, hands down....and I'm being 100% objective about this.

There are no "number ones" give me a break...there are suck residencies and then there are good ones. My absolute personal belief is that residency at a program with a bajillion subspecialty fellowships will not offer the best opportunity for the EM resident. The EM resident is a BORN COWBOY...we need some back up and that is it.
Some big name places would NEVER make my top 10 list.

As several have politely tried to point out, this is a gunner type question which has absolutlely *nothing* to do with the quality of EMP's that are created. As has been repeated, ad nauseum, residency is what you make of it. Crappy EMP's come from 'great programs' and vice versa. There are no overtly competitive fellowships and companies just want people who are trained.

So, the list is kind of ridiculous, in my opinion. The thought of 'top' programs didn't even enter into my application process. I picked an area I wanted to live in and ranked programs according to issues important to me.


And my program is the best.

champ1999 said:

Roja,

Thanks for your response. Your opinion is noted, if not somewhat naive in my opinion (I hope that was polite). Obviously good docs come from bad programs and vice versa etc., and fit is the most important factor in choosing a residency. However there is real value to determining which programs have good reps and bad reps. If one wants to pursue academics down the road or get fellowships etc, the level of the reputation of the program makes a difference. So thanks for your opinion, but I am just trying to wade through the waters of determining my future.

Signed

Not a gunner- just someone who wants to make an informed decision- not satisfied being blissfully ignorant

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Kinda poor form to come in here for opinions and then call an opinion-giver (with more experience than you) "naive" and imply that they are "blissfully ignorant," don't you think?

champ1999 said:

Roja,

Thanks for your response. Your opinion is noted, if not somewhat naive in my opinion (I hope that was polite). Obviously good docs come from bad programs and vice versa etc., and fit is the most important factor in choosing a residency. However there is real value to determining which programs have good reps and bad reps. If one wants to pursue academics down the road or get fellowships etc, the level of the reputation of the program makes a difference. So thanks for your opinion, but I am just trying to wade through the waters of determining my future.

Signed

Not a gunner- just someone who wants to make an informed decision- not satisfied being blissfully ignorant

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Roja naive?

Your first post asked for all opinions, and your getting them from residents who have already applied and matched. These opinions may not be what you had in mind, but you are getting them none the less. To imply that a current EM resident's opinion (which is shared by many in this forum) is seated in ignorance and naivety just because you disagree with her is a little over the top.

Having said that, I would like to reiterate that Maricopa is by far the most superior residency, as proven by multiple randomized control trials. Those same trials proved that attending a residency in any other location will lead to malpractice and unhappiness. Also, I think Opra said so recently, so it must be true.

Margaritaboy! dude, you're funny! hahha

Come on folks, can't we all just get along. Seems that so many threads become new peeps vs. old school posters. We all know that nearly every topic has been discussed before and is found somewhere in the FAQs. However, things change, and in this field particulaly so. What's wrong with talking about what people PERCEIVE are the programs with the "best" or "better" reputations.

Champ1999 raises some legitimate points. If people don't want to talk about it, don't post. For those of you who are post-match and really don't care about this issue doesn't mean that other people don't (for better or worse). For those of us going through the process now this type of discussion regarding program reputation is important. We all do it informally with classmates and faculty so why not here? We all know that the RRC is strict and consequently all EM residency programs produce good docs. No one is arguing that. But certainly some programs have something a little extra that brings them recognition and "fame."

Who cares if Champ1999 thinks Roja's opinion is naive? Why does everyone feel the need to pounce on him for taking a different viewpoint? Maybe, despite her experience and status as a PGYII, her opinion on this issue is a little bit naive. There are lots of people who put stock into the reputation of the program from which they hire graduates. To think otherwise is a little delusional in my opinion. I doubt I'll land that great academic spot at Cinci, BID, Denver, or wherever coming from a program that doesn't have a track record of producing great people. If you're just interested in putting in the three years and grabbing the highest paying community job you can find, this discussion is probably irrelevant. But for some of us, it may potentially have some merit.

margaritaboy said:

Roja naive?


Having said that, I would like to reiterate that Maricopa is by far the most superior residency, as proven by multiple randomized control trials. Those same trials proved that attending a residency in any other location will lead to malpractice and unhappiness. Also, I think Opra said so recently, so it must be true.

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Of course, you don't get to be as hip or cool as wearing black turtleneck scrubs, snapping your fingers and soaking up the NYC enviro.


Middle America to Margaritaboy: Maricopa, huh? where's that?


Middle America to roja: New Yawk City? Wow. (said in awe)


Plus, we have more hot redheads.

Course, my goal this year interviewing applicants is purely find eyecandy for myself and other female co-workers.

do you remember what the number needed to treat was where nonmaricopa EPs began experiencing malpractice and unhappiness?

In all seriousness, I have to agree with Roja's post above. Emergency Medicine doesnt have the strata that other specialties have. Even miserable quacks who didnt train at Maricopa have a great chance of finding a great job. The accreditation process is tightly regulated, and high quality programs are more the norm than the elite. In addition, the applicant/resident pool is made up of people sincerely focused on practicing EM, not viewing EM as their initial residency en route to their subspecialty. This means that strong residents are spread throughout the country rather than gunning to land a spot at one of the "top ten" programs in order to ensure their choice of fellowship. More important than where you trained might be who you know, and the nice thing about EM being a fairly small world is that regardless of program, you should have some good networking opportunities.

blissfully ignant.

Alright, if you're serious about this poll, you need to add the program I think has the best reputation....

whichever one I match with (assuming I match)

Take care,
Jeff <-fingers crossed until March 17; expecting cramps

kungfufishing said:

do you remember what the number needed to treat was where nonmaricopa EPs began experiencing malpractice and unhappiness?

In all seriousness, I have to agree with Roja's post above. Emergency Medicine doesnt have the strata that other specialties have. Even miserable quacks who didnt train at Maricopa have a great chance of finding a great job. The accreditation process is tightly regulated, and high quality programs are more the norm than the elite. In addition, the applicant/resident pool is made up of people sincerely focused on practicing EM, not viewing EM as their initial residency en route to their subspecialty. This means that strong residents are spread throughout the country rather than gunning to land a spot at one of the "top ten" programs in order to ensure their choice of fellowship. More important than where you trained might be who you know, and the nice thing about EM being a fairly small world is that regardless of program, you should have some good networking opportunities.

blissfully ignant.

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To all the "new posters" on the SDN EM forums:

This above post really does say it well. EM is very different from IM and Surgery... where Duke, Hopkins, MGH, Yale, Columbia, blah blah are the "best" programs. EM is a new field... and a very small world. There truly aren't programs that are head and shoulders above the rest. That's not only my opinion and likely the majority of the SDN population, but when I've asked my attendings, nearly all of them say "Where I trained."

So, that being said:
UCLA
King/Drew
Geisinger
Charity
Maricopa ( )
SUNY Buffalo
Temple
Univ of Chiago

Hey, that's what FACULY at my program said, so it must be true?!

Honestly, you're not going to find a list of programs that are the "best EM programs." It doesn't exist.

Q

I vote for Carolinas because it's just so dern pretty. I mean, look at it! A fountain out front, rugs in the elevators that say, "Happy Monday!" [with matching rugs for every day of the week]. Who else can match that? It's even in a pretty neighborhood, where the pretty soccer moms run with their strollers.

Looking for eye candy? The residents are notoriously pretty, guys included. The attendings are pretty. A significant portion of the nurses are pretty, guys included, and are taller than they are wide. The medics are a mangy bunch, but they drive some really pretty ambulances.

margaritaboy said:

PS - Having said all that, Maricopa is unequivocally the best residency program out there, hands down....and I'm being 100% objective about this.

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Maricopa might have a good residency program, but it's not pretty. Even smells funny. Nice effort on the Christmas lights, though. Maybe the new buidling will be pretty. Maybe even have a fountain?? We can only hope.

champ1999 said:

What do you think are the best 5-10 emergency medicine residency programs overall (reputation, academic v. community etc.)? I realize the deciding factor for most, rigthfully so, is fit, but was just curious about opinions of others? all opinions wanted.

Thanks

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This whole thread is prima facie disingenuous - you ask for opinions, then bust on people for them. You want the opinions on which programs are "best", but opinions are subjective - period. Do some research and develop your own perspective as to what is best. If only one person here is a Denver grad/resident, nobody might mention Denver, although many (that aren't on SDN) might consider it "best". Moreover, you know of programs (by your poll) that are often considered "upper echelon", but don't give option for "other", and, beyond that, have the BIDMC and MGH programs, and USF (which are new, or newer) - and yet, have others not listed.

Then, there's daddymd, who supports you, in your quest for opinions, and then says someone is delusional (!) (after starting a post with "can't we all just get along.") if they think where you're from doesn't matter. Actually, that is simplistic and, in my opinion, naïve - it's not where you come from, but the recommendations that the people there (that make it a "name" place) that get you your spot - there is no - NOT ONE - EM residency in the US that will automatically get you the job you want, if you are a POS, suck, a slug, less than qualified, an dingus, or have any deficit that will not make you a suitable addition to the program you want. My program doesn't have a great name yet, but my PD is more "hooked up" (every name I drop, she knows, personally, the person I've named) and more trustworthy than any PD I've ever known, and her rec will carry a lot of weight. Our program is just graduating our first residents this year, and one of the grads going on to fellowship got a very competitive fellowship, both from his active efforts, and her help getting him in the door.

And, with 28 posts between you, you're both pretty much unknown quantities on SDN, so, like it or not, cast an extreme opinion, you'll get clipped. That's the way it goes.

champ1999 said:

Thank you for the opinion. This is part of my research. and I agree "other "should be on there as an option but I cannot change it now (or at least I do not know how). But if there is a good program that was not mentioned in the poll please mention it here. As to there being a hierarchy about who can ask what questions or have an opinion based on how many posts you have seems silly. My question is still valid and I do value all opinions. I just do not like personal attacks. Can we please just stick to the issue, and throw in some humor. Nobody is trying to cut anyone down or in any way put other programs down. Just looking for opinions about what are the best programs.

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You just don't get it. There is no "hierarchy" as to having opinions based on post count, and your saying that is "silly" is a "personal attack" - what I said is that you are an unknown quantity here - you are an unknown quantity. Ask any and all the questions you want, but, when people tell you to search, or that you might not get what you want, don't repeat - again - your question.

I did answer your question, and stick to your issue - and calling people "delusional" is ipso facto "trying to cut (someone) down" (which I know wasn't you, but you agreed with that person, and you said "nobody").

Since you don't get it, and appear somewhat inflexible, without more of you known to get a better appreciation of you, I would not be surprised if responses are meager (in re: "stick to the issue").

I have to admit... I haven't heard much about Maine Medical's program.

Apollyon...I have to agree with you. I was very very impressed with your PD. I'll be interviewing soon. Duke may not be a "name" program yet, but I have the feeling they will be soon enough.

Frankly, I think the poll at the beginning of this thread is worthless. What I would find valuable is people's opinions on why certain programs have the reputation of being great training places. Clearly, though, that idea is too controversial. What about Cinci, or Denver, or Pittsburgh or Duke (besides the PD) make them great places? We all realize that the people at the programs are incredibly important for helping us get "hooked up" with the right job or fellowship. No news there. I'm glad, Apollyon, that your PD is so wired. One graduate is getting the "sweet" fellowship, what about the others? What are your prospects looking like next year? Most of us witnessed your struggle to get where you are and are eager to see the outcome.

Let's just face the truth, this discussion board is more or less "owned" by about 10 people who post constantly, throw around a bunch of latin, and then call everyone else an "unknown entity" because they don't have 4000+ posts. I may not post much, but I've been around on this board for as long as many of you (since 2001). I just don't have the time and/or inclination to say much. My screen name should tell you where I spend my time.

If Champ1999 wants to ask the question (whatever it is) a few hundred times that's okay with me. I never called any one person delusional, just the idea of blindly discounting where we train in the context of looking for post-residency appointments. Everyone still says that EM is new and small, but Cinci is planning its 35th anniversay and there are now thousands of graduates out there. It's not such a new or small place as it used to be.

daddymd said:

Come on folks, can't we all just get along. Seems that so many threads become new peeps vs. old school posters. ... What's wrong with talking about what people PERCEIVE are the programs with the "best" or "better" reputations.

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I don't know if I'm an "old-school poster," but after a lot of time-wastin' on the Internets here I've gone from a know-nothing premed to being a know-almost-nothing premed, and this bunch of residents has taught me to let go my worrying and use the Force. I highly recommend listening to them. Or, don't. Drive yerself crazy. As you like. We can all get along, but if you chafe at hearing a critique of your approach, it's going to be a long and stressful education. Be the ball, dude.

daddymd said:

... For those of you who are post-match and really don't care about this issue doesn't mean that other people don't (for better or worse). For those of us going through the process now this type of discussion regarding program reputation is important. We all do it informally with classmates and faculty so why not here? ... certainly some programs have something a little extra that brings them recognition and "fame."

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To expand on my point above, just because one is post-match doesn't mean that important things stop being important. Maybe they're not dissing the question because they're too cool to care. Maybe they're dissing the question because it's kind of a dumb and unhelpful question. Besides, if you could quantify or explain this mystical x factor related to "fame," you wouldn't need to ask about it here. So really... how important can it be, if it can't even be identified or talked about?

daddymd said:

There are lots of people who put stock into the reputation of the program from which they hire graduates. To think otherwise is a little delusional in my opinion. I doubt I'll land that great academic spot at Cinci, BID, Denver, or wherever coming from a program that doesn't have a track record of producing great people. If you're just interested in putting in the three years and grabbing the highest paying community job you can find, this discussion is probably irrelevant. But for some of us, it may potentially have some merit.

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Meh. If we get a program director in this thread saying one way or the other, awesome. But... meh.

Also, the program where I work as a tech is clearly the best.

daddymd said:

Let's just face the truth, this discussion board is more or less "owned" by about 10 people who post constantly, throw around a bunch of latin (sic), and then call everyone else an "unknown entity" because they don't have 4000+ posts.

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Well, I'm not "about 10 people" - in fact, you described me almost to a "t" ("constantly" is a vague word, and two people out of 25 thousand isn't "everyone else"), but, the Latin, hey, that's the way I talk (which people that know me that are on SDN can attest to).

daddymd said:

I may not post much, but I've been around on this board for as long as many of you (since 2001). I just don't have the time and/or inclination to say much. My screen name should tell you where I spend my time.

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May not post much? You must be prone to hyperbole (both up and down). As dictionary.com says about the synonym "unknown quantity":

"a factor in a given situation whose bearing and importance is not apparent"

From what I've seen, most people have something good to say on SDN; your bearing is not apparent (and I would guess it would be positive). Not having time is understandable, but not having the inclination is more distressing, because that makes it sound like you have something to say, but choose not to. That is unfortunate.

As far as screen names, who the hell knows? Yours could be representative of anything from Ozzie Nelson to being the mack daddy.

daddymd said:

If Champ1999 wants to ask the question (whatever it is) a few hundred times that's okay with me. I never called any one person delusional, just the idea of blindly discounting where we train in the context of looking for post-residency appointments. Everyone still says that EM is new and small, but Cinci is planning its 35th anniversay and there are now thousands of graduates out there. It's not such a new or small place as it used to be.

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It's good he has your approval (so he's not alone in his question).

The irony is that, by what you state, you (and Champ1999) both already have an idea what you believe are the "best" programs. However, from my anecdotal experience, the resounding theme that continually, year after year, comes down about EM is that the best program is the best program for you (kind of like the MVP - the most valuable player to a team - not in a league). To ask if Harbor-UCLA, Olive View-UCLA, Denver, Cinci, Hennepin, or any other program is best implies someone trying to fit themselves into the program, instead of finding a program that fits the person. Is Highland best? If you want great training, but, also, the knife and gun club of Oakland, notwithstanding being in California (which is heaven or hell, depending on the person). Likewise for Jacobi, or Detroit Receiving for that matter - work your ASS off with a grueling, crushing pace, urban and inner city. Want tertiary, lot of zebras, and +/- suburban, with associated heavy pressure from medicine and/or surgery? Try UT-Southwestern, Stanford, Mayo, Duke, Hopkins? Want the home of modern day trauma? University of Maryland.

Opinions are like dinguses - everyone's got one, and most of them stink. Make your own decision.

Apollyon... you need to chill out man... I don't understand why you're making such a big stink and trying to argue with a couple people who are just going for opinions... like you said, everyone's got one--So let people voice them!

Are people that insecure about their programs that they can not have this discussion???? Of course lots of programs are good. Of course people perfer different types of programs. Of course you must find the best fit for you. So why do so many people here care if people have this discussion? Just give your 2 cents and move on... no need to attack people just b/c they "post less" or engage in a conversation you have already had...

Nicely said. Waterski. Apollyon, you really need to chill out... you talk to people like we are stupid teenagers who need to learn lessons of life from an elder. Dude, we might not be as knowledgable as you are about EM world, but that's why we are here looking for info and asking "stupid question".

This is an INTERNET discussion forum, and we don't need you to make judgement, censorship, or best yet, psychiatric evaluation saying someone is "delusional." What are you? internet cop or internet psychiatrist!?

p.s. Your 4000+ hit only means you really have a lot of time with your hands. and in the future if you don't like the thread, then get out.

QuinnNSU said:

So, that being said:
Temple...
Q

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Cool to see Temple noted. I think they might be the most underrated program. Great people and great experience and a chair with real clout.

southerndoc said:

I have to admit... I haven't heard much about Maine Medical's program. Q

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I interviewed up there. Great town and a nice place. They are a little light on trauma. Otherwise they have a lot of positives especially if you want to practice community EM down the road.

As for the rest of this (I can't believe I'm wading into this mess) these endless debates about the unqualified "best" program are useless or at least not as productive as asking questions about specifics. When you ask about the "best" residency or the "best" reputation it means nothing without a qualifier. Best trauma? Best research? Best EMS? Best ultrasound? Best rectal foreign bodies? What?

Since the OP mentioned academics and fellowships some more productive questions would be:
Who does the most bench research, chest pain research, trauma research, etc?
Who has the most nationally known chair or professors?
Who has a pipeline into a tox fellowship?
Who graduates residents certified in US?

Or better still ask specifically about programs:
Who sees more trauma Denver or Davis?
Does Cinci has a chest pain obs unit?
Does Wake have a poison center?

These will get a lot more substantive answers.

hello23 said:

This is an INTERNET discussion forum, and we don't need you to make judgement, censorship, or best yet, psychiatric evaluation saying someone is "delusional." What are you? internet cop or internet psychiatrist!?

p.s. Your 4000+ hit only means you really have a lot of time with your hands. and in the future if you don't like the thread, then get out.

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It wasn't me that made the delusional comment, so reread the thread, and throw your invective elsewhere (where it belongs). Also, you don't speak for "we". By the way, I'm a real EM resident - not an internet anything.

Anyways, I don't give a damn about your advice for the future if I don't like a thread.

And Waterski2whatever, I'm attacking? As I look at my posts, I DID put constructive things in there (like the comparison about one place or another, which DocB expanded on).

I wasn't trying to be offensive to you.... just don't understand why you're still getting so defensive in here. Call me whatever you want, I don't really care. This is getting really immature.

Okay, you want another opinion. From my point of view, this question is tired, has been asked so many times I was too bored to post in it until now, and it doesn't have a good answer. The original poster asked if there were any good programs he didn't list in his poll. The answer is yes, tons.

I think any of the above programs (and plenty of others) could be the best program for any given person depending on what their personality was like and what the graduate was looking for in their education and geography. So I voted for all of them. (edit: I see I'm not the only one with that feeling and idea.)

My opinion of such a general question? Meh.

Apollyon said:

It wasn't me that made the delusional comment, so reread the thread, and throw your invective elsewhere (where it belongs). Also, you don't speak for "we". By the way, I'm a real EM resident - not an internet anything.

Anyways, I don't give a damn about your advice for the future if I don't like a thread.

And Waterski2whatever, I'm attacking? As I look at my posts, I DID put constructive things in there (like the comparison about one place or another, which DocB expanded on).

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A real EM resident, as opposed to all the fake ones out there? When I sat across from you at lunch a few weeks back all you could talk about was your new BMW and how cool it is. You should continue doing that with all the applicants, it gives a great impression of you and your program.

I think docB and Sessamoid are right on this one. The OP asked a tired, broad question that is tough to answer. Looking for a residency, as I'm learning, is a very self-reflective process and we're all trying to figure out the "fit" (and trying to cover our butts in the process so we don't end up scrambling). I appreciate people's opinions since I've only seen a handful of programs first hand.

Peace.

daddymd said:

When I sat across from you at lunch a few weeks back all you could talk about was your new BMW and how cool it is. You should continue doing that with all the applicants, it gives a great impression of you and your program.

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Did you just dis a resident at a program where you recently interviewed? That's a brilliant move - why don't you write the PD & call him/her a Fatty McFattypants?

daddymd said:

A real EM resident, as opposed to all the fake ones out there? When I sat across from you at lunch a few weeks back all you could talk about was your new BMW and how cool it is. You should continue doing that with all the applicants, it gives a great impression of you and your program.

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Hey Apollyon, you're holding out on us... tell us what you got man!

Fatty McFattypants?

NinerNiner999 said:

Fatty McFattypants?

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hahahaha, i've never heard FMcF before but I absolutely love it and will use it in as many SDN posts that I can... Fatty McFattypants.

Q

Actually - ask Apollyon if he went to a "real" medical school. His answer should be pretty funny.