holy **** i need advice: academic misconduct

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Do what you want, live with the consequences. That's my philosophy when it comes to these things. It involves a "Risk/reward" analysis. If you think something is too risky with too little reward, dont do it. If you feel like the risk is relatively low compared to the reward, do it. I know that you're going to hear a lot about "ethics, morality, honesty, decency" from many of the posters here... its ingrained into our premed minds, after all. But in the end, and I'm not even a believer, but "Let he who casts the first stone..." I wont judge you, but be prepared for MANY others to judge you if it ever gets out.

Good luck.

I would not have gotten myself into this situation, but hey, its a risk you take when collaborating.
 
How does the judicial process work at your school, is it based on a preponderance of evidence or beyond a reasonable doubt? I sat on my school's judicial board and you definitely fit the preponderance of evidence reasoning of plagiarism. Why do I ask this? Because it would seem like the appeal will fail just because they (the judicial board members and the professor) have no way of knowing it was indeed unintentional and will probably make the decisions based on the facts, which seem to be against you.

How are you sure the files are confidential? Did you speak to your school's Ombudsman to confirm that fact? It seems to me the schools will have SOME way of finding out and if they do you're toast. Honesty will probably mean you have heavy explaining to do and will probably have to wait a few years to apply. Ethically, it's the right thing to do.

In any case, I think the schools will see that grade because you have to show them all grades prior to application no?
 
All I'm going to say is that I would not run the risk of not mentioning it and having them find out later that you omitted some pretty serious information.

Despite whether you feel the offense warranted the punishment you recieved, it happened and you shouldn't cover it up.
 
1) You have to answer "yes". You were found guilty of the violation.

2) " "

3) They ask specifically about academic misconduct. I believe they don't care whether it made your transcript or not. You have to answer the questions truthfully and disclose the information. It's better than hiding it, it coming to light while you're deep in med school, and you getting expelled and stuck with major debt.

4) You shouldn't keep your mouth shut.


If you believe the appeal is going to work, I recommend that you avoid applying this cycle, get this matter cleared first, then apply. I'm sorry to hear about your incident and I'm sure you didn't mean to break the ethic code.
 
ALSO, as an addendum to my response in your OTHER thread in pre-DO, how many dumb schmucks is it going to take before people get the "don't xpost" rule?? Seems like if you were a regular poster on both forums, you'd know that by now 😡
 
dasaniwater said:
Well, we had our hearing today and we were found in violation of plagiarizing and unauthorized collaboration with each other. The decision was to fail us both in the class. We are curently shocked as to how an unattentional act would land us such a harsh punishment. We both intend to apply this yr for the 2008 cycle. My questions are:

1) We will be appealing this and submitting the AMCAS before this is over. Would you guys leave the box on AMCAS for academic misconduct empty?
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You were found guilty of academic misconduct in a hearing. Therefore, you must answer, "yes," to the question posed in the AMCAS and explain. To do otherwise is to compound your misconduct, particularly, if discovered. Filing an appeal does not itself alter the results of the hearing; in order for there to be a change in your status, the judicial committee would need to reevaluate your finding and make a new decision based on your appeal.

2) When secondaries come back, and it is still pending, would you guys still say that "no, I havent been found in violation?"
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See above. You were found in violation and thus, you must report it as indicated. To do otherwise is to compound your violation.

3) Adcoms have no way of finding that we violated student conduct because it wont show up in our academic record (transcript, files, or anything). It can only be found in the judiciary branch of our school which is confidental. Would you guys keep your mouth shut on what happened because such a small misunderstanding and unintentional act may deplete chances of getting into medical school?
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Do you have a premedical advisory committee? It is my understand that most medical schools require a letter of recommendation from that committee. I don't know how it works in yours, but mine requests disclosure of any academic misconduct from the judicial committee. You can probably choose not to disclose it to them, but then the premedical advisory committee will reserve the right to write you a letter. I would talk it over with your premedical advisory committee on how to proceed.

4) Lastly, If you would keep your mouth shut, how would you explain a failing grade to med schools? We sent our transcripts in already so it wont show this quarter's grades. But do medical schools ask to look at transcripts again before, during, or after interview or acceptance?
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Don't lie or withhold pertinent information. You are required to submit all of your official transcripts to the medical school in which you intend to attend upon matriculation.

I know answering all these questions has to do with your personal belief, moral and ethical. But please provide information to help me and my friend decide. We are taking this pretty hard and my friend is pretty much depressed and doesnt know how to move on. We have a final yet to take, but how can we go on without even knowing if the appeals process will work in or favor or not? Anyways, any factual info regarding the questions above would really help. Thanks.
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Don't hold your breath. You can certainly pray for the most benefical outcome and you might get lucky, but it is my impression that most appeals on academic misconduct fail. I suggest that you do not lie or withhold this information. Be honest and forthright about your situation. Lies have an way of insidiously catching up with you and screwing you over harder than if you had simply revealed when it was easier. However, nobody can make this choice for you, or tell you what is going to be your best move. That's up to you. I hope you choose wisely.

Good luck.
 
dasaniwater said:
I cross posted because this is an urgent matter. I want both sides of the story. from preallos and preDOs. ignore it if you see it twice.
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Cross-posting is not permitted, just so that you know, whether you consider your post "urgent" or not. Besides, you are unlikely to receive differing points of view based on pre-allo or pre-osteo; your matter is completely insensitive to the differences between the two traditions--it deals with a choice to reveal or conceal pertinent information. Thus, there is no compelling reason to cross-post. Pre-allo receives more traffic; that would be the best forum in which to pose your question.
 
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dasaniwater said:
The appeals process will be a written statement to the vice president of acamedic affairs. I think that stating that we didnt intend on plagairizing will help us. Also stating the failing a class for an unintentional act is crazy might help us.
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No. I really don't know how to put this in a nicer way but your reason is crap. I empathize with your situation but put yourself in the vice president's shoes. Would you honestly believe your statement?
 
Look on the bright side, if you were at the University of Virginia you would have been expelled permenantly with no possibility of attending the institution again in any capacity. I worked as a counsel (defending and prosecuting students) and saw this type of thing all the time.
 
dasaniwater- you were found guilty of academic misconduct. There is no ambiguity here. If you appeal and it is overturned: wonderful. But until that happens, no matter what stage of the appeal you are in, the correct answer to the acadmic misconduct question is "yes".

You have three options as I see it:

1. Apply and tell the truth. You may have some schools' doors slammed shut on you because of it, but many will hear you out. If you explain it well and if it is later overturned, you may be in good shape.

2. Apply and lie. You may get away with it. You may not. If you get caught, you won't be going to that or possibly any medical school. Ever.

3. Defer your application a year and hope you overturn your academic misconduct. If you overturn it, you're in great shape. If you don't, you need to evaluate whether to go with 1 or 2.

Ethically, it's pretty clear what your options are. If you decide to lie to cover up an academic misconduct charge, you will not get sympathy. And the irony will be pretty hard core.
 
dasaniwater said:
Our evolution class was given an assignment that consisted of six questions about a scientific article that was given to us. So my friend and i worked on an assignment together. We wrote in some cases, word for word straight from the article. We didnt think we needed to cite because a) the TAs and professor knew where we were getting the answer from and b) they were actual facts that we had written down.
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Working with another person when it is not explicitly allowed is improper. Copying something word for word and failing to cite its source is improper. Yes, the TAs and professor knew where you were getting the answers, but the expectation is for you to digest the information and use your own thoughts and words in the response.

Frankly, I'd say your actions were very stupid on multiple levels. How much effort does it take to 1) work on this by yourself, 2) properly cite your materials, and/or 3) paraphrase the material with your own language? Not very much.

Good luck with your future plans, and try to be a little smarter from now on.
 
dasaniwater said:
You may think it's crap and so may the provost to whom I am writing to. But the situation is different than many other cases. TAs, although they cant state this in a written statement, have told me that other students have plagairized as well if we are in fact guilty of it, but havent been turned in because the TAs dont believe it is considered plagairism because they knew the source it was coming from and what I had in my paper was all facts. They werent my ideas nor was I claiming that the article's ideas were my own. I answered the question by simply answering question, some questions being nearly word for word. Many students did this as well, making this assignmnent quite ambiguous. Maybe the provost will find it that we were only turned in for working together and that being slapped with plagairism shouldnt have happened since the assignment was ambiguous.

Just what I hope, so either way, whether the provost thinks additional reasoning for why failing us is absurb or not, it is worth a try. Maybe he/she will be in a good mood. My friend has talked to her advisor and he has said that the provost is leaving the university this year and that who knows, maybe he/she will be more lenient in regards to this case because it is so unique.

I think that if the panel heard us out, they wouldve found something odd with the professor turning in only 2 students. We have printed evidence that other students were only marked off points for copying word for word. Additionally, TAs are going back to grade and take off more points for those who "plagairized"
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Ok. I understand you probably feel like you've been backed into a corner and your state of desperation will allow you to reason any possibility of getting out of this unscathed. Regardless, I won't repeat what others have said about telling the truth but that's what you should do. Again, I really do empathize with your situation and hopefully, for your sake, it works out.
 
Dakota said:
Look on the bright side, if you were at the University of Virginia you would have been expelled permenantly with no possibility of attending the institution again in any capacity. I worked as a counsel (defending and prosecuting students) and saw this type of thing all the time.
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Or, more likely, you'd be found guilty of violating the community of trust, but get off on the triviality clause.
 
Were you not aware what constitutes plagiarism? Don't most schools give students the 'what is plagiarism' talk during orientation? I know I had it.
 
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tkim said:
Were you not aware what constitutes plagiarism? Don't most schools give students the 'what is plagiarism' talk during orientation? I know I had it.
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I didnt hear such a talk at orientation, but I know what constitutes it. This case might be plagairism, but it definitely seen differently by us/TAs and by professor/committee. Thats why its ambigious but we'll see when we appeal.
 
Your defense is "everybody did it" (plaigiarizing) but you and your buddy got caught because you did it together. Sorry, not much of a defense.

I think you are completely screwed on this one. Looks like an "open and shut" case that will not get overturned on appeal.

You need to start worrying how this is going to affect your getting a job and recovering from this and quit worrying about getting into medical school.
 
dasaniwater said:
So this is what I am thinking, and remember that my thoughts may change as well. Just weighing my options.

When I submit AMCAS, I wont check the box. When the appeal is over and I am still in violation, I will say "yes" on the secondary and state that I was confident that this would be overturned because I very much am. If decision is overruled, than I can say "no" on secondaries.

I think its easier to say no to med schools and then say yes and explain why the status changed than to say yes and then say no. saying yes than no will already limit chances of getting into med school is the reason

What are your opinions. what would you do? Thanks
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See notdeadyet's post above.
 
dasaniwater said:
I think it is a case that if other people have done the same as us and TAs dont believe it is plagairism, than maybe there is ambiguity in the assignment. Like I said, I might as well try.
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I am a student member of our student run judicial branch at my med school. We handle all cases of cheating, professional misconduct and behavior or anything essentially dealing with any possible penalties a student will face during their tenure at school. Cases just like yours. This is a great system because the admin can't do their own thing to you until you have been through our committee of peers.

My goodness, your thoughts of what you want to do are already in violation of my school, and if you were brought before us you would likely be found GUILTY! And you haven't even applied yet. A guilty verdict by our committee carries heavy consequences. The Dean generally follows our recommendations, whether guilty or not guilty. We recommend sanctions as well, and yours would be good reason for expulsion if found out.
I would imagine most other schools are similar.

By all means, if you plan to apply this or any cycle with this unresolved you must report it. Our "Dean of Medical Education" has told us that at conferences he attends with other admin staffers of other med schools that there is a general belief that 10% of medical students cheat. He supports this belief by studies he cited to us during a committee meeting. Either way, you will be setting yourself up for failure if you do report it, and if you don't report it. I can assure you most schools will not want to deal with someone who has baggage like yours. They have enough trouble dealing with students who made it through the cracks who had clean records before starting med school, let alone applicants with a BIG RED FLAG on their application.

Until this is fully resolved I suggest you wait to apply. If it is overturned on appeal then you are clean, and there is no need to report it. If it is not overturned, and you proceed with applying then you will have serious explaining to do.

Also, I would find out what your institution is required to report. When the Dean writes the Dean's letter for our 4th year students applying to residencies a conviction by our committee is required to be reported in the Dean's letter because it is a matter of record. The Dean has the option to make their own remarks in the Dean's letter supporting the conviction or opposing the conviction it but they can't hide the fact you were convicted. Good luck getting a bad residency after that, if you aren't expelled! No matter how much students want to fight the power you can't beat the power of the pen. Tread lightly in what you do.
 
dasaniwater said:
So this is what I am thinking, and remember that my thoughts may change as well. Just weighing my options.

When I submit AMCAS, I wont check the box. When the appeal is over and I am still in violation, I will say "yes" on the secondary and state that I was confident that this would be overturned because I very much am. If decision is overruled, than I can say "no" on secondaries.

I think its easier to say no to med schools and then say yes and explain why the status changed than to say yes and then say no. saying yes than no will already limit chances of getting into med school is the reason

What are your opinions. what would you do? Thanks
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Sounds like a horrible idea to me.

Better option - defer applying until you "win" your appeal. If that means not applying until next year, then that is not too bad a penalty.

This transgression will appear on your transcript - it is not going to go away because you did not "check" a box on the application. And when they piece it together and figure out that you lied on the app, you can kiss med school bye bye forever...
 
dasaniwater said:
I didnt hear such a talk at orientation, but I know what constitutes it. This case might be plagairism, but it definitely seen differently by us/TAs and by professor/committee. Thats why its ambigious but we'll see when we appeal.
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I appreciate that you and the TA's view this something other than plagiarism. However, it's the faculty and administration who determine your guilt or innocence. If they can show that what you did - intentional or not, constitutes plagiarism according to your school's student handbook/laws, then the only thing that's left to consider is appropriate punishment. Hopefully, they'll be lenient, but they might also try to make an example of you and your friend.

By the way, there's a pretty standard definition of plagiarism, and it looks like you plagiarized several ways: no citation, no quotation marks, collaboration.
 
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Static Line said:
I am a student member of our student run judicial branch at my med school. We handle all cases of cheating, professional misconduct and behavior or anything essentially dealing with any possible penalties a student will face during their tenure at school. Cases just like yours. This is a great system because the admin can't do their own thing to you until you have been through our committee of peers.

My goodness, your thoughts of what you want to do are already in violation of my school, and if you were brought before us you would likely be found GUILTY! And you haven't even applied yet. A guilty verdict by our committee carries heavy consequences. The Dean generally follows our recommendations, whether guilty or not guilty. We recommend sanctions as well, and yours would be good reason for expulsion if found out.
I would imagine most other schools are similar.

By all means, if you plan to apply this or any cycle with this unresolved you must report it. Our "Dean of Medical Education" has told us that at conferences he attends with other admin staffers of other med schools that there is a general belief that 10% of medical students cheat. He supports this belief by studies he cited to us during a committee meeting. Either way, you will be setting yourself up for failure if you do report it, and if you don't report it. I can assure you most schools will not want to deal with someone who has baggage like yours. They have enough trouble dealing with students who made it through the cracks who had clean records before starting med school, let alone applicants with a BIG RED FLAG on their application.

Until this is fully resolved I suggest you wait to apply. If it is overturned on appeal then you are clean, and there is no need to report it. If it is not overturned, and you proceed with applying then you will have serious explaining to do.

Also, I would find out what your institution is required to report. When the Dean writes the Dean’s letter for our 4th year students applying to residencies a conviction by our committee is required to be reported in the Dean’s letter because it is a matter of record. The Dean has the option to make their own remarks in the Dean’s letter supporting the conviction or opposing the conviction it but they can’t hide the fact you were convicted. Good luck getting a bad residency after that, if you aren’t expelled! No matter how much students want to fight the power you can’t beat the power of the pen. Tread lightly in what you do.
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Awesome answer ^. During your appeal, I would be honest about what happened, but don't make excuses about it. Admit you were wrong and show at least some sincerity. It seems to me like you still don't think you did anything wrong - which is why you should be punished. If you realize your mistake and correct it, you chance of having it overturned may be better. Good luck making the right decision - you already knew it before you posted.
 
dasaniwater said:
So this is what I am thinking, and remember that my thoughts may change as well. Just weighing my options.

When I submit AMCAS, I wont check the box. When the appeal is over and I am still in violation, I will say "yes" on the secondary and state that I was confident that this would be overturned because I very much am. If decision is overruled, than I can say "no" on secondaries.

I think its easier to say no to med schools and then say yes and explain why the status changed than to say yes and then say no. saying yes than no will already limit chances of getting into med school is the reason

What are your opinions. what would you do? Thanks
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Man you're taking a huge risk. Are you willing to live with the possibility of NEVER getting in if the appeal doesn't work and and then having to answer yes on the secondaries? I seriously doubt that your explanation of thinking that the appeal would work will fly with the adcoms when asked about why you didn't report it on the AMCAS to begin with. All they're going to see is that you initially withheld the info.

Personally, I would take a year off and sort this mess out. It sounds like you may be slightly younger than the average applicant, so it's not like your aproaching 40 and need to start ASAP. I would definitely not risk answering NO on AMCAS and then having the appeal not work, at that point I'd start looking at my backup plan. And like you said, even being honest and answering YES on AMCAS may automatically get your app thrown out at some places. Neither of those options are good, so I'd sit out the year and get everything sorted out and then come back.
 
dasaniwater said:
When I submit AMCAS, I wont check the box. When the appeal is over and I am still in violation, I will say "yes" on the secondary and state that I was confident that this would be overturned because I very much am. If decision is overruled, than I can say "no" on secondaries.
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Charles Manson is appealing his case in California for the Sharon Tate murders. Can he select "no" to AMCAS questions about if he's been convicted of a felony?

You're a premed, so I'm sure you're a pretty bright guy. I think you probably understand that what you're proposing above constitutes lying at the time you file your application. Taking a risk that may permanently prohibit you from becoming a doctor seems a pretty dumb thing to do.

And the fact that you're willing to lie to cover up an academic misconduct case makes it hard to take at face value your version of events that led to the academic misconduct. It's a credibility thing.
 
dasaniwater said:
We have printed evidence that other students were only marked off points for copying word for word. Additionally, TAs are going back to grade and take off more points for those who "plagairized"
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I have a hunch you're not Mr. Popularity in your class right now. What was their reaction to your turning in their work to get marked down to better your case?
 
op: unfortunately you are dealing with two of the most judgmental types of people, doctors and professors. the sanctions they impose on their own for ethical breaches are a pale reflection of what they dole out to their students. by the book what you did is plagiarism, and since you were caught you are being martyred. i'm really sorry, you've got a difficult road ahead. good luck to you.

edit: i agree with the posters above that you should postpone applying until you've sorted this out.
 
dasaniwater said:
Some of you guys are coming off a little harsh.
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My apologies if I am coming across a bit harsh here. I'm a lot older than many people on these threads and probably have a more similar mindset to folks on your appeals committee and at the medical schools than most. What constitutes being honest seems to have a lot of fluidity for folks in their late-teens/early-20's. It probably won't be shared by professors or Adcoms. If I'm harsh, it's only for emphasis.
dasaniwater said:
Many people have said to wait a year to apply. The more I think about it and read these posts, the more I am leaning towards waiting another year. ... But, since I know this appeal process will take 10 days to submit an appeal, and other 3-4 weeks for a decision, then maybe I should wait another 4-5 weeks instead of waiting a year. Would put me at a disadvantage though, because I'd apply mid-July?
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Waiting for your appeal decision is the smart thing. If in five weeks your appeal is successful, apply in mid-July if you're satisfied with your app. If you don't think it's a strong app, wait and apply the following year. I don't think that mid-July is as late as a lot of folks seem to think.
 
dasaniwater said:
I definitely agree with most of what you guys are saying. Never did I say that I was going to not check the box or never tell med schools about this. Some of you guys are coming off a little harsh. This happened today to my friend and I, so we are just seeing what other people would do or "what the right thing to do is." Thats why I turned to you guys.

Many people have said to wait a year to apply. The more I think about it and read these posts, the more I am leaning towards waiting another year. Also, my mcat is below 30, but GPA is great and applying early would make me a more decent candidate. But, since I know this appeal process will take 10 days to submit an appeal, and other 3-4 weeks for a decision, then maybe I should wait another 4-5 weeks instead of waiting a year. Would put me at a disadvantage though, because I'd apply mid-July? My stats aren't stellar so I am guessing it would. hmmmmm..what do you all think?
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I think people were responding strongly to when you said that you were initially going to NOT check the box on the AMCAS app.

I also didn't mean to come across too harsh. Since this did just happen people tend to initially not think very rationally and react emotionally. I think all of us here would like to see this work out for you, but have been replying with strong words because we're on the outside and from looking at this situation from the outside it feels as if, at least to me, that you're putting yourself in a bad situation.
 
dasaniwater said:
You may think it's crap and so may the provost to whom I am writing to. But the situation is different than many other cases. TAs, although they cant state this in a written statement, have told me that other students have plagairized as well if we are in fact guilty of it, but havent been turned in because the TAs dont believe it is considered plagairism because they knew the source it was coming from and what I had in my paper was all facts. They werent my ideas nor was I claiming that the article's ideas were my own. I answered the question by simply answering question, some questions being nearly word for word. Many students did this as well, making this assignmnent quite ambiguous. Maybe the provost will find it that we were only turned in for working together and that being slapped with plagairism shouldnt have happened since the assignment was ambiguous.

Just what I hope, so either way, whether the provost thinks additional reasoning for why failing us is absurb or not, it is worth a try. Maybe he/she will be in a good mood. My friend has talked to her advisor and he has said that the provost is leaving the university this year and that who knows, maybe he/she will be more lenient in regards to this case because it is so unique.

I think that if the panel heard us out, they wouldve found something odd with the professor turning in only 2 students. We have printed evidence that other students were only marked off points for copying word for word. Additionally, TAs are going back to grade and take off more points for those who "plagairized"
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If you situation is so different than other cases, please explain what someone must do to be considered plagiarism.
 
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dasaniwater said:
Working with others is something that everyone does whether you like to admit it or not.
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I'm not sure what you mean. Typically when I had an assignment I sat down and completed it on my own. If I needed help I would seek it out, but I think there is a rather large distinction between that and working in conjunction with another student.

dasaniwater said:
It wasn't stated on the syllabus or assignment nor said by professor or TAs that working together is "unauthorized"
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In general I believe that assigned work is assumed to be done solo unless otherwise allowed or specified.

dasaniwater said:
People edit one another's work, advise whether to add or omit things.
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Yes, people do that, but are they supposed to?

dasaniwater said:
In this case out of 6 questions, 1 of them was almost identical. Should a 5 line answer that is very similar to a friends prevent someone from getting looks from med schools or failing a class. I think thats nuts.
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Perhaps, and I'm sorry that you had to learn this lesson the hard way. It's easy to become inattentive to these seemingly harmless activities, but on a bad day some of them will blow your legs off.
 
dasaniwater said:
If I knew I was plagairizing, i would have taken another 10 seconds to cite and another 30 seconds to rephrase each answer. I didnt think it was plagairism and I still don't
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Question: how many words were in each answer and how many were lifted, verbatim, from the article?
 
For the OP: did you have an attorney or legal representation at this hearing? If not, you screwed up. Sounds to me like you were your own worst enemy in this hearing and you could have used some pre-trial coaching.

Get a lawyer involved in this appeal - your future as a doctor depends on it - hell, your future in most careers depends on it. If you haven't already done so, probably time to tell mom and dad the mess you are in...
 
seadizzle said:
Or, more likely, you'd be found guilty of violating the community of trust, but get off on the triviality clause.
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Don't get me started on that travesty. Did they officially change the language to triviality? It was still "seriousness" when I was there. Regardless they either need to get rid of student juries or get rid of the single sanction because student juries don't want to expel students. They take "reasonable doubt" and extrapolate it to mean "any shadow of an unreasonable, impossible, doubt."

Sorry for the derailing . . . carry on.
 
Dakota said:
Look on the bright side, if you were at the University of Virginia you would have been expelled permenantly with no possibility of attending the institution again in any capacity. I worked as a counsel (defending and prosecuting students) and saw this type of thing all the time.
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Absolutely correct.
 
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