Ranked v. Unranked waiting list - is unranked fair?

Obama4President · Mar 21, 2008

I didn't want to hijack the Dartmouth thread with a discussion about merit of the unranked waiting list. So, let's open it up and see if people could explain why an unranked waiting list is fair.

I made a few comments that were less than eloquent in the Dartmouth forum, that distracted from my main point which is this:

Is an unranked waiting list an invitation for people with connections to pull strings (either influential faculty or donors to the school)? Do you have to write an over the top letter, thrusting praise onto an admissions department in order to get off an unranked list? Most schools that have explained their evaluation system typically generate a numerical score for you (ie Dartmouth's batting average). Why isn't this sufficient to generate a ranked list?

Unranked waiting lists are far more common at private institutions, in part, because there's no mandate for the transpearancy required at a public institution. While it may help a smaller school generate "balanced class", I am surprised that unranked lists haven't attracted more attention from politicals groups that feel strongly about issues of affirmative action. Frankly, I don't see how I would get off a waiting list when matched against an equally qualified applicant whose family has given money to a particular school or whose professor knows the dean.

Obviously, I have strong opinions on this, and the general lack of transpearancy (by power brokers in general 🙂 ). I would be curious if people know of any public school that uses an unranked waiting list. Also, I'm I'd be interested in contrary views.

CrepesofWrath · Mar 21, 2008

UT San Antonio has an unranked alternate list.

HIVdoc2b · Mar 21, 2008

U of Washington has both ranked and unranked waitlists.

MsJLewis · Mar 21, 2008

I feel like if these people had "connections" with the dean/committee/or were super rich donors, then they wouldn't be on the waitlist to begin with...

wjustice · Mar 21, 2008

I guess I never really thought about it in those terms. If anything, I would almost prefer an unranked waitlist, not because I'm rich or anything like that, but because it seems like it gives you an opportunity to make a case though a letter to the school based on your interest in attending and your acceptances (or lack of) at other schools. It would suck to have someone ranked higher than you on a waitlist who is not as serious about attending. . . that person might end up declining the acceptance and then you will ultimately end up waiting longer if there are a number of people like that.

At the interview Datmouth mentioned they are need-blind, so at least that means they're not going to prefer a particular candidate because his/her parents have billions of dollars. . . but I suppose who knows if being a donor affects the decision. I'm sure it does it some schools, regardless of whether you are on the waitlist. It might just lead to them getting a higher score right off the bat.

Sartre · Mar 21, 2008

I have the same concerns as the OP. I can see why schools might wait to rank their waitlist until they have made their initial offers (until they interview everyone, they don't really know what the waitlist pool looks like). But to have an unranked pool indefinitely is unfair, in my opinion.

In general, the lack of transparency in the admissions process is really untenable. I realize that the schools are making an investment in the students they accept, just as we are making an investment in our schools. But when my entire future hangs in the balance -- and when I have already paid thousands of dollars and invested years of my life just applying to med school -- the least these schools could do is offer me some idea of where I stand. And the fact is, these schools are never hurting for applicants. Sure, they want the best of the best -- but there are hundreds of totally qualified applicants for them to choose from. For us, the situation is very different. You can't help but feel strung along sometimes.

We really need some consumer advocates in higher education, if you ask me.

etf · Mar 21, 2008

not only is unranked "unfair", but it's a lie. there's always some type of ranking - it's whether the school chooses to disclose it or not. how else would they be able to decide who to pick? it makes no sense to me...

Phoenix. · Mar 21, 2008

Here's some recent related discussion on how unranked waitlists might work:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=505747

As to whether they're fair, what does it matter? Not like there's anything to do about it. I just wish that they would periodically trim some people off of the list that they're SURE they're not going to get to as the months go by. No reason to keep hundreds of people on a waitlist when it's June or July. Is there? Then again, they have no reason to cut the list. We're a nice safety net in case they misjudged - and keeping a large list enables them to continue to pick from a diverse group.

leftmid · Mar 21, 2008

Are you saying that someone tries to fix some crapshoot somewhere?😱
Or are you saying that someone tries to make sure that it isn't some crapshoot somewhere? 😱😱

HanginInThere · Mar 21, 2008

Obama4President said:
I didn't want to hijack the Dartmouth thread with a discussion about merit of the unranked waiting list. So, let's open it up and see if people could explain why an unranked waiting list is fair.

I made a few comments that were less than eloquent in the Dartmouth forum, that distracted from my main point which is this:

Is an unranked waiting list an invitation for people with connections to pull strings (either influential faculty or donors to the school)? Do you have to write an over the top letter, thrusting praise onto an admissions department in order to get off an unranked list? Most schools that have explained their evaluation system typically generate a numerical score for you (ie Dartmouth's batting average). Why isn't this sufficient to generate a ranked list?

Unranked waiting lists are far more common at private institutions, in part, because there's no mandate for the transpearancy required at a public institution. While it may help a smaller school generate "balanced class", I am surprised that unranked lists haven't attracted more attention from politicals groups that feel strongly about issues of affirmative action. Frankly, I don't see how I would get off a waiting list when matched against an equally qualified applicant whose family has given money to a particular school or whose professor knows the dean.

Obviously, I have strong opinions on this, and the general lack of transpearancy (by power brokers in general 🙂 ). I would be curious if people know of any public school that uses an unranked waiting list. Also, I'm I'd be interested in contrary views.

Interesting perspective - here are my thoughts:

As MsJLewis says, someone with enough connections wouldn't be on the waitlist in the first place. Or to take that another step, if I gave Dartmouth millions of dollars couldn't they just rank me higher on the list? I'm not sure how publishing the rankings helps reassure you, unless they also fully disclosed the ranking methodology and everbody's scores broken down with full explanations of each rank. [And even if they did all that, which no school ever would, it doesn't help because for someone who has pull they could just bump up numbers in subjective sections like interviews/essays/etc.]

Dartmouth's "batting average" system is a much more detailed and numbers-oriented approach than I heard about in any of my other interviews. Whether they keep those numbers internally with the waitlist or not, it seems like they're already trying to be more objective and analytical than what I've heard from other adcoms.

You mention a balanced class and affirmative action, and I think this is actually a good argument against the kind of ranking you'd like. Instead of having to give some number of points at the outset for URM status etc., they can choose students from the waitlist as needed to build the right group. If the class is trending heavy on older students, research focus, Dartmouth undergrad alumns (they get a LOT of those applicants!), gay black bobsleding women from Arizona, or whatever, they can pick and choose the strongest candidates from the waitlist that will give them the mix they're looking for. A private school has the luxury of doing this, and a school with as small a student body as Dartmouth is going to have a strong interest in it. And I think the "balanced class" is a much more plausable explanation for the waitlist choices they'll make than some nefarious influence peddling scheme. (At least I hope so, because I don't have any world-famous cardiologists promising to add a wing to Dartmouth-Hitchcock if I get off the waitlist!)

And one last point: If you don't like this process now, you're going to be really miserable in four years when you're trying to figure out the residency match system.

pride4jc727 · Apr 4, 2008

Simply reply to whether these schools have ranked or unranked waitlist and whether there is just one regular waitlist or have a separate high priority waitlist and a separate waitlist?

Creighton
UMDNJ-NJMS
UMDNJ-RWJMS

One more thing: Is the HP waitlist really small or simply the top-third of people on the waitlist? Thanks.

fastd03 · May 2, 2009

pride4jc727 said:
Simply reply to whether these schools have ranked or unranked waitlist and whether there is just one regular waitlist or have a separate high priority waitlist and a separate waitlist?

Creighton
UMDNJ-NJMS
UMDNJ-RWJMS

One more thing: Is the HP waitlist really small or simply the top-third of people on the waitlist? Thanks.

UMDNJ-RWJMS has a "high priority waitlist" from which virtually everyone eventually gets in (supposedly) and a regular one. Not sure about NJMS or Creighton.

cpants · May 2, 2009

pride4jc727 said:
Simply reply to whether these schools have ranked or unranked waitlist and whether there is just one regular waitlist or have a separate high priority waitlist and a separate waitlist?

Creighton
UMDNJ-NJMS
UMDNJ-RWJMS

One more thing: Is the HP waitlist really small or simply the top-third of people on the waitlist? Thanks.

NJMS has a ranked wait list. Last year, no one got in off the waitlist.

RWJ has HP and regular wait list, not sure if it is ranked. I can tell you from personal experience that not everybody gets in off the HP waitlist.

fizzle · May 2, 2009

MsJLewis said:
I feel like if these people had "connections" with the dean/committee/or were super rich donors, then they wouldn't be on the waitlist to begin with...

On the contrary, someone with strong connections or money who otherwise didn't meet the school's standards would likely be given a courtesy interview regardless of whether he/she is qualified, and then a post-interview waitlist would be a soft way of "rejecting" them. I'd think that waitlists would be MORE common for these people, not less.

Edit: I just realized that this thread was resurrected from a year ago...oh well. I guess the topic's still relevant.

slowbutsteady · May 2, 2009

I think (1) they want to preserve their ability to have a balanced class, which is reasonable; and (2) it is just too much work to rank 100-200 waitlisters, and perhaps isn't even possible.

Everyone on the list is qualified to attend. Everyone they accepted is qualified to attend. But to assign a RANK to each waitlister assumes that they are distinguishable from one another in some OBJECTIVE manner.

On what basis would you go about ranking the list??? Number 3 has 2 more MCAT points than number 4???

I am sure there are unofficial groupings within every school's list, but they are fluid.

You are asking/expecting more objectivity in a process that -- from beginning to end -- is very subjective.

cpants · May 2, 2009

slowbutsteady said:
I think (1) they want to preserve their ability to have a balanced class, which is reasonable; and (2) it is just too much work to rank 100-200 waitlisters, and perhaps isn't even possible.

Everyone on the list is qualified to attend. Everyone they accepted is qualified to attend. But to assign a RANK to each waitlister assumes that they are distinguishable from one another in some OBJECTIVE manner.

On what basis would you go about ranking the list??? Number 3 has 2 more MCAT points than number 4???

I am sure there are unofficial groupings within every school's list, but they are fluid.

You are asking/expecting more objectivity in a process that -- from beginning to end -- is very subjective.

I do wonder though, at places with unranked lists how do they decide who to accept? One spot opens up in the class. Who do they call? They can't be reevaluating everyone on the list each time this happens.

Appless · May 2, 2009

pride4jc727 said:
Simply reply to whether these schools have ranked or unranked waitlist and whether there is just one regular waitlist or have a separate high priority waitlist and a separate waitlist?

Creighton
UMDNJ-NJMS
UMDNJ-RWJMS

One more thing: Is the HP waitlist really small or simply the top-third of people on the waitlist? Thanks.

Creighton is unranked.

Raryn · May 2, 2009

etf said:
not only is unranked "unfair", but it's a lie. there's always some type of ranking - it's whether the school chooses to disclose it or not. how else would they be able to decide who to pick? it makes no sense to me...

Exactly.

They tell us the waitlists are unranked so we stop bothering them about our chances, but it *can't* be true. Its logistically impossible for the committee to meet every time theres a new open seat, and come a few weeks from now, they're going to want to fill their class as fast aspossible.

Greonis · May 2, 2009

If I had to guess, I would say that schools with unranked waitlists - rather than "ranking" candidates - instead categorize them into a number of groups designed to easily meet the needs of the class as they arise due to withdrawals. For example, most schools aim to have a 50/50 mix of males/females, so that is one potential category that can easily cut the number of waitlist candidates to be considered in half, provided that the waitlist also has an even mixture. Other potential categories - just to name a few - include IS/OOS status, ethnic/racial background, age, and college (for example, a medical school may have a quota to meet from its associated undergraduate institution).

Once simplified, the merits of each individual (scores, update letters, etc...) can then come into play to help a categorized applicant be selected over others in the same category. One can certainly imagine that even choosing one applicant from a smaller unranked group presents some of the same challenges, but it is undoubtedly a lot simpler for the adcoms to make their decision more quickly and efficiently.

This is, once again, just speculation, so please do not treat it as fact!

45408 · May 2, 2009

etf said:
not only is unranked "unfair", but it's a lie. there's always some type of ranking - it's whether the school chooses to disclose it or not. how else would they be able to decide who to pick? it makes no sense to me...

Word. Unless they re-evaluate the whole list or select at random, there is a ranking. They should just tell you where you are, so that you can plan your life accordingly.

windcolour · May 2, 2009

Why so many people here are so simple to believe there is a really "un-ranked" waiting list?????????

Premed Worrier · May 3, 2009

Was told at WVU that the waitlist was alphabetical. There ya go for fair...

BozoSparky · May 3, 2009

cpants said:
I do wonder though, at places with unranked lists how do they decide who to accept? One spot opens up in the class. Who do they call? They can't be reevaluating everyone on the list each time this happens.

I bet they are looking for someone pretty similar to the person who bailed..quite a few schools like to build their class with people having unique backgrounds, experiences, etc.

So, if your 1st baseman just quit, get another one.

It seems there could be many different rankings depending on the spot.

It may not work purely like this, but there could be some component of the waitlist blackbox that operates this way.

mynamewastaken · May 3, 2009

BozoSparky said:
I bet they are looking for someone pretty similar to the person who bailed..quite a few schools like to build their class with people having unique backgrounds, experiences, etc.

So, if your 1st baseman just quit, get another one.

It seems there could be many different rankings depending on the spot.

It may not work purely like this, but there could be some component of the waitlist blackbox that operates this way.

If by unique backgrounds and experiences you mean race/ethnicity/state residence then I agree with your post.

mynamewastaken · May 3, 2009

Ranked v. Unranked waiting list - is unranked fair?

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