Residency salaries

darazon said:

How much do the salaries of residencies come into play when choosing a residency?

Does a great residency offset low pay -or a well paid residency offset an OK residency?

I have a family and will not be able to live on some of the salaries that I have seen listed (i.e. $24k/year).

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That's pitiful! Can you link to a couple of those programs?

I've seen fellowship spots that low but not PM&S36.

http://www.casprcrip.org/html/casprcrip/pdf/Directory/Directory_ProgSum_CRJ.pdf

The link above shows all the residency programs and how much they pay per year for each year.

I only saw 1 program that pays 24k/year. A couple payed in the low 30k/year. Most pay around 40-45k/year. And a good number even pay 50k+/year.

I'd say that a lot of programs probably just haven't updated their numbers in a couple of years. I noticed that my program is 4-5k off. Talk to current residents while visiting the programs to get the real numbers. These lists should act as estimates only.

Darazon, I have a family of 6. Be careful. I know salary needs to be taken into consideration while in residency but the training that you receive in residency will determine your long term earning potential. I know you probably realize that but I'm posting it for others that maybe don't. I'd say the majority of residencies pay a normal residents salary (ie what every other resident in the hospital makes). Their are programs in my area that pay residents better than mine but I wouldn't give my training up for an extra 5K!

What I did was look at regions. Obviously, cost of living is much more expensive in certain parts of the country. I tried to focus on good programs in reasonably priced areas of the country and it ended up working out. However, I was willing to go where I had to go as was my wife.

I agree with jonwill 100%. If there's anytime that you have to "budget", this is the time. If you have have the grades and are lucky enough to be able to choose, salary should be secondary and program quality should be numero uno.

The quality of your program can possibly be a strong determining factor in the starting salary you are offered after your training. So a sacrifice now (in salary, not quality of training) may have major dividends in the long run. So if you have the opportunity to get a high quality program that may not pay as well as a program that isn't quite on par, I would opt for the higher quality/lower paying program.

I know of two programs in my geographic area where this scenario recently took place. One program is known for it's relatively high sarlaries because of it's parity with the rest of the residents in the hospital, though the program is mediocre in my opinion. The other program pays less, but the training is superb.

The resident that came out of the higher paying program was offered several positions, none of which were very lucrative and ultimately took a position for about $60,000 with incentives. The resident from the higher quality/lower paying residency took a position starting at about twice that salary.

I know that's only one example, but regardless of starting salary upon graduation, you NEVER want to sacrifice the quality of your training. It's something you can never "buy back".

jonwill said:

I'd say that a lot of programs probably just haven't updated their numbers in a couple of years. I noticed that my program is 4-5k off. Talk to current residents while visiting the programs to get the real numbers. These lists should act as estimates only.

Darazon, I have a family of 6. Be careful. I know salary needs to be taken into consideration while in residency but the training that you receive in residency will determine your long term earning potential. I know you probably realize that but I'm posting it for others that maybe don't. I'd say the majority of residencies pay a normal residents salary (ie what every other resident in the hospital makes). Their are programs in my area that pay residents better than mine but I wouldn't give my training up for an extra 5K!

What I did was look at regions. Obviously, cost of living is much more expensive in certain parts of the country. I tried to focus on good programs in reasonably priced areas of the country and it ended up working out. However, I was willing to go where I had to go as was my wife.

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what he said

PADPM said:

I agree with jonwill 100%. If there's anytime that you have to "budget", this is the time. If you have have the grades and are lucky enough to be able to choose, salary should be secondary and program quality should be numero uno.

The quality of your program can possibly be a strong determining factor in the starting salary you are offered after your training. So a sacrifice now (in salary, not quality of training) may have major dividends in the long run...

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I agree also. Money always matters, but pick a program based on high quality training and a good fit for your style/personality/interests first and foremost. Salary can be a tiebreak between good programs or icing on the cake, but also be concious that salary isn't the whole picture... do residents get free food? Gas milage allowance? what's the CME allowance? What's the med/dental insurance premium/coverage? etc? All that info is usually available from the hospital's website or Grad Med Ed dept if it's a major teaching hospital with residencies in various specialties (so that you can avoid looking a gift horse in the mouth if you're a good student who would be competitive at a lot of high quality programs).

In the end, what you make in residency is peanuts compared to what you'll make as an attending, so training (total picture.... scientific, surgery, pt relations, and prac mgmt) is much more important IMO. I was pretty fortunate in that my top choice program was also one of the highest paying in the area - and country when you factor in cost of living. However, I would have just as easily been willing to settle for low income with high cost of living if I had decided another program was my best fit and had interviewed/matched there.

Honestly, unless you have kids and/or are the only household bread winner, you probably won't even have much time to spend much of the money you make in residency. As long as you live within your means and you weren't spoiled or working a "real" (college educated, $40k+) job before pod school, the resident salary is definitely not bad compared to the student apartment, mac and cheese, and can beer that most of us were probably accustomed to in undergrad and pod school. I can be quite honest when I say I'm now able to pay my rent+bills with roughly half my monthly salary and just paying down higher interest debt and saving up for practice startup or buy in/out right now with the other half of my salary.

If you are planning to go to work as an associate for a group or FTE of a hospital, etc after residency, then you definitely want to make sure your training and numbers (as well as possibly the program's brand name, if you want to work for other pods) is good. Fellowship is also an option since it'd make your app quickly rise to the top of the stack for good jobs, esp at academic hospitals. Just like getting a residency, it's usually as much about networking/personality as it is about paper application, though... "it's not what you know, it's who you know."

I agree. Look there are few residencies out there that are living in the 80s paradigm that students are lucky to get a residency so they will take what we pay them and a few unethical ones who pay low and try to get the residents to moonlight their practices. Fortunately they are few and far between. Most pay based upon the hospital budget, the geographic average, and the local cost of living.

When selecting the residency salary and benefits are just the tip of the iceberg. What is their surgical volume and diversity? What educational opportunities exist that make the program special. Some programs have their own surgical cadaver labs, enroll the residents in Present, offer CME opportunities, ACFAS skills courses, enhanced orthopedic rotations, and large faculties.

Another important question is how well do the programs place their graduates and in what type of jobs? How do they fair on the board qualification exams? And are the residents prepared in practice management and do they have opportunities when they graduate to get involved in the profession at the local, state, and national levels? How many become involved in education ( a sign that their experience stimulated them in this direction).

What is the director's reputation? What's the city like and what is the cost of living? Houston for example is much cheaper than New York or Los Angeles.

When it comes down to the decision, let's say a program fits and has all positive responses of the above questions but pays 6, 12, or 18 thousand less than another program over the 3 years. (2,4, or 6 per PGY). When you finish you may make that back in less than a year or even a month when compared with the job you take versus one a higher paid resident with less residency experience may get offerred.

One final thought: Does your personality, work ethic, and career goals fit with the program? Do you need to be pushed or are you self motivated? If you plan on a career heavy in diabetic reconstruction or trauma, or wound care, or elective surgery does the residency prepare you?

Good Luck!
CRIPs right around the corner.

Podfather said:

I agree. Look there are few residencies out there that are living in the 80s paradigm that students are lucky to get a residency so they will take what we pay them...

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Truer words have never been spoken

...could also add "and will deal with how we treat/work them."

There are 3 basic residency setups:
-1 Major teaching hospital = you will get good med/surg rotations with academic services, get pay/benefits which all other residents do
-2 Community hospital = pod is probably the only residency program, salary/workload can potentially be way too rough or too relaxed, off roations are variable quality
-3 VA = will probably get low pay and little/no CME, decent benefits, lots of male pts and lots of wound care, med/surg rotations variable quality

There are still a fair amount of residency programs that are used to the days when candidates would kill for their surgical program and they could run the residents ragged and pay them low if they wanted to. While a lot of those are busy scratching their heads and trying to figure out why the are now scrambling their spots, there are many good up and coming programs which are offering high quality training. No program is perfect, and you have to do your homework. The good thing is that we have a lot of high quality training programs now... DPM post-grad training level has grown immensely.