If your undergrad school doesn't matter...

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Jennyollio

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So from my reading here the consensus seems to be that where you go for undergrad doesn't really affect your acceptance to medical school. However, this morning I was looking at the applicant profiles and looked up who was accepted to schools such as Cornell, Stanford, Yale, etc. Almost everyone who was accepted came from a very prestigious undergrad school, a very large portion of them being Ivies.

I'm getting a little nervous since I go to a smaller state school in New York. I know people say where you go doesn't matter but then why are those accepted into very good medical schools all coming from very prestigious undergrad schools?
 
Jennyollio said:
So from my reading here the consensus seems to be that where you go for undergrad doesn't really affect your acceptance to medical school. However, this morning I was looking at the applicant profiles and looked up who was accepted to schools such as Cornell, Stanford, Yale, etc. Almost everyone who was accepted came from a very prestigious undergrad school, a very large portion of them being Ivies.

I'm getting a little nervous since I go to a smaller state school in New York. I know people say where you go doesn't matter but then why are those accepted into very good medical schools all coming from very prestigious undergrad schools?
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Umm because very prestigious undergraduate schools have a larger number of very motivated and qualified applicants compared to most places...also they seem to have more folks who like to brag about their accomplishments so it is more likely they are posting there "success" stories than maybe those who went to smaller schools who have a bit more tact...but then who knows, the small school humble thing worked well for me so I can't complain
 
Was it a list of all the schools represented or just some. If it was just some schools represented then it probably makes them feel better to say "we have students from harvard, yale, blah blah..." I got to a less known school in FL and my pre-med friends haven't had any trouble getting into top 30 ranked schools. Personally, I like being seen as the underdog...it motivates me to work harder... 😀 😀 😀 😀
 
snobored18 said:
Umm because very prestigious undergraduate schools have a larger number of very motivated and qualified applicants compared to most places...also they seem to have more folks who like to brag about their accomplishments so it is more likely they are posting there "success" stories than maybe those who went to smaller schools who have a bit more tact...but then who knows, the small school humble thing worked well for me so I can't complain
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👍 Plus, when you have applicants with the same GPA and MCAT score, adcoms will be unintentionally biased towards the upper tier of Ugrad institutions. SDN isn't exactly representative of the MD/DO applicant pool. I've learned that people like to boast on here.
 
You can either go to the top tier schools and butt heads with the other smart guys for a C, or go to podunk U and be top of the class.

Either way, you will have to be good to get into a top tier med school.
 
Jennyollio said:
So from my reading here the consensus seems to be that where you go for undergrad doesn't really affect your acceptance to medical school. However, this morning I was looking at the applicant profiles and looked up who was accepted to schools such as Cornell, Stanford, Yale, etc. Almost everyone who was accepted came from a very prestigious undergrad school, a very large portion of them being Ivies.

I'm getting a little nervous since I go to a smaller state school in New York. I know people say where you go doesn't matter but then why are those accepted into very good medical schools all coming from very prestigious undergrad schools?
Click to expand...


Search for people that applied to the schools you mentioned and see if people with similar GPAs and MCAT scores but from a less prestigious school also got in.

The consensus here seems to be that it doesn’t matter so much where you go but rather how well you do. There’s no way to know for sure, there are just so many variables. But my guess is that the prestige of your undergraduate school might have at least a little effect, with those form Harvard, Yale etc. getting a slight boost. I don't think it's enough to worry about though.
 
Where you go to undergrad does not *in and of itself* make or break you. There are many other, equally significant factors. Have no fear.
 
Addb said:
You can either go to the top tier schools and butt heads with the other smart guys for a C, or go to podunk U and be top of the class.

Either way, you will have to be good to get into a top tier med school.
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actually, it's no secret that grade inflation is rampant at many ivy league schools.
 
organichemistry said:
actually, it's no secret that grade inflation is rampant at many ivy league schools.
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You mean at some Ivy League schools, grade inflation is rampant, and usually this phenomenon has no effect on BCPM due to the rigid nature of the curve and the fact that the inflation largely affects non-science, non-engineering classes. This discussion has already been on the forum several times.
 
Jennyollio said:
So from my reading here the consensus seems to be that where you go for undergrad doesn't really affect your acceptance to medical school. However, this morning I was looking at the applicant profiles and looked up who was accepted to schools such as Cornell, Stanford, Yale, etc. Almost everyone who was accepted came from a very prestigious undergrad school, a very large portion of them being Ivies.

I'm getting a little nervous since I go to a smaller state school in New York. I know people say where you go doesn't matter but then why are those accepted into very good medical schools all coming from very prestigious undergrad schools?
Click to expand...

It's because the students at these schools are generally smarter. Wouldn't you expect a school with an SAT average of 1450 to send more kids to the Ivies than your typical state school? I'm sure it plays a small part. it's easier for ivy league students to get into med school with 3.3 gpas, look at mdapps. however, most of these schools are filled with big names simply because these schools produce a bunch of top notch applicants.
 
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Jennyollio said:
So from my reading here the consensus seems to be that where you go for undergrad doesn't really affect your acceptance to medical school. However, this morning I was looking at the applicant profiles and looked up who was accepted to schools such as Cornell, Stanford, Yale, etc. Almost everyone who was accepted came from a very prestigious undergrad school, a very large portion of them being Ivies.

I'm getting a little nervous since I go to a smaller state school in New York. I know people say where you go doesn't matter but then why are those accepted into very good medical schools all coming from very prestigious undergrad schools?
Click to expand...

As long as you excel at your university, you'll have a shot. The people that get into the top10 med schools are generally really big fish at small pools, or larger than average fish at large pools.
 
Jennyollio said:
So from my reading here the consensus seems to be that where you go for undergrad doesn't really affect your acceptance to medical school. However, this morning I was looking at the applicant profiles and looked up who was accepted to schools such as Cornell, Stanford, Yale, etc. Almost everyone who was accepted came from a very prestigious undergrad school, a very large portion of them being Ivies.

I'm getting a little nervous since I go to a smaller state school in New York. I know people say where you go doesn't matter but then why are those accepted into very good medical schools all coming from very prestigious undergrad schools?
Click to expand...

The less prestigious the school, the higher the GPA needs to be to be considered an equivalent applicant.

It DOES matter.
 
The key is going to the school that you want to go to, remember you are going to be there for four years and your degree/experience from those four years will be a defining feature of you for the rest of your life. Could I have gone to a school that had easier classes, sure; could I have tried to get into to an Ivy, again sure; but I knew the moment I stepped foot on my college's campus that this was the place I wanted to go to.
 
OSUdoc08 said:
The less prestigious the school, the higher the GPA needs to be to be considered an equivalent applicant.

It DOES matter.
Click to expand...

Yep 👍
 
It's frustrating as heck going to a school that does not inflate grades: if no one earns an A in a class, there is no guarantee that A's will be awarded. In my Organic II class I earned a B, which happened to be the highest grade in the class; sometimes I wish I hadn't turned down Carleton and Vassar because at least they give A's. However, in my experience with students from mid-tier institutions and TTT's, they might have 3.8 gpa's but they're dumb as ****. I'd chose my same school again: I'd rather be well educated and have to explain and struggle with a low gpa then to be grossly incompetent and have a stellar record. I know several schools, Northwestern comes to mind first, stratify the quality of colleges into five tiers: students with community college credits are at the bottom and students from top 20 universities and LAC's are at the top. Now while many people argue to what extent one's college influences their chances at being accepted to a top tier medical school is debatable, but the consistent showing of students from top schools heavily suggests a strong preference if not an outright bias for top tier undergraduate universities and LAC's.
 
It's like when you were young if you were lucky grown-ups tried to tell you that you could do anything become an astronaut or the president or whatever...and maybe even they lied to believe it themselves and who knows every once and while strange things can happen but for most of us the world will inevitaibly kick you around some and these questions of who has greater access to power much less professional development are quite obvious. The old buildings with ivy on them are a symbolic power passing ritualized form of socialization and yes you were not invited...a couple of scholarship kids and athletes surrounded by the sons and daughters of the american elite, and they didn't pay that money for B's and hence the inflation...but you know there are as many non-ivy league medical school who would just assume take a hard-working joe blow from state u so it still doesn't amount to a significant disadvantage unless you want to be inside the gentlemen's club in which case you'll be swimming up stream. If this comes as a suprise to you...well then...you're in for some more suprises.--Ben.
 
School prestige definitely does matter. You're deluding yourself if you think that going to Harvard isn't a big boast. That said, it is certainly very possible to get into a top med school from an unknown undergrad.

Fyi, SDN is intensely, irrationally hostile to the idea of school prestige. Everyone will also deny that med school name matters for residency.
 
beetlerum said:
Fyi, SDN is intensely, irrationally hostile to the idea of school prestige. Everyone will also deny that med school name matters for residency.
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That's because SDN is full of gunners who are dead sure they wouldn't have had to do half the work they've done as pre-meds to get into med school if they'd been able to get into Ivy undergrads. :laugh:
 
applicants from schools known to be more "vigorous" are definitely given more weight (ie. UCLA/UCB have more "points" than "not so vigorous" school)
 
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I think one of the reasons that "prestigious" undergrad institutions are favored is that the competition for grades is much harder than it is at public schools. Curving grades also works against you sometimes. Like Slide said, grade inflation only happens in non-science classes. In science (esp. pre-med) classes, there's a cap on the number of A's and B's that can be awarded. At Penn, for e.g., the mean score for each science course is set at a B-, and only ~20% of ppl. are awarded A's and A-'s (combined). And considering that most people here were pretty outstanding in high school and they only take science classes if they expect they can get a pretty good grade, it's generally really really hard to beat 80% of them to end up with some form of an A.

I'm not saying that I think I'm better for going here or anything; I know that most people from schools with diff structures who are reading this are very smart and could prob pull off good grades at Penn. But you gotta admit, the competition is easier at a state (or similar) school, given the majority of the other students you're up against. The avg Penn pre-med, who is prob well-qualified for med school, will earn a C+ or B- in a pre-med class. I think we deserve just a bit of credit for the uphill battle we have to fight for 4 yrs. 😳

Also, most ivies and equivalent schools really encourage student research. Everyone I know here has done pretty significant research. While that isn't everything that'll get you into med school, it certainly does give you a leg-up.

To the poster who said his class didn't earn any A's...I'm really sorry! I think med schools know about schools that do that though, and they'll definitely take that into account and know that a lower GPA from your school would be equal to a much higher GPA elsewhere. I know that's true for grad schools and LACs (somebody credible told me so), so I think it's a safe assumption to make for med schools too. Plus, even if you did earn a B, the fact that you were the highest score in your class prob means that the prof would write you a sweet LOR if you wanted him to. 😉
 
MahlerROCKS said:
It's frustrating as heck going to a school that does not inflate grades: if no one earns an A in a class, there is no guarantee that A's will be awarded. In my Organic II class I earned a B, which happened to be the highest grade in the class; sometimes I wish I hadn't turned down Carleton and Vassar because at least they give A's. However, in my experience with students from mid-tier institutions and TTT's, they might have 3.8 gpa's but they're dumb as ****. I'd chose my same school again: I'd rather be well educated and have to explain and struggle with a low gpa then to be grossly incompetent and have a stellar record. I know several schools, Northwestern comes to mind first, stratify the quality of colleges into five tiers: students with community college credits are at the bottom and students from top 20 universities and LAC's are at the top. Now while many people argue to what extent one's college influences their chances at being accepted to a top tier medical school is debatable, but the consistent showing of students from top schools heavily suggests a strong preference if not an outright bias for top tier undergraduate universities and LAC's.
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How do med schools know which schools are known for grade inflations or not? Now I'm talking about no-name schools here.
 
ecnerwalc3321 said:
How do med schools know which schools are known for grade inflations or not? Now I'm talking about no-name schools here.
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I think that your LORs should actually do a pretty good job of reflecting the standard grading system at your school. Most profs know that in order to make their recs credible, they need to 1. compare you to your classmates and 2. talk about the basis for comparison (i.e. grading system). One of my recommenders told me that she discusses the exact grade breakdown of her class and talks about the grading system at my school in general. Even if your school is rather unknown, med schools prob have records of previous applicants from that school too.

Also, never underestimate the power of the MCAT-GPA disparity. If schools see that your MCAT is much higher than your GPA, they'll often assume that your college's grading system is pretty tough (and vice-versa!). The main reason we have to put up with that bloody pain in the ass is so schools have some standard way of judging everyone, esp. applicants from rather obscure colleges.
 
Well there's definitely a discrepancy in accpetance percentages among applicants from my school and from the national data. Maybe its jsut that people are smarter/harder working at my school, who knows. Might also be that we hvae a really organized premed process. Then again the final possbility is that the school name helps

48.1
Percent of national applicants to medical school were accepted
89.1
Percent of Duke seniors applying to medical school were accepted
 
kevster2001 said:
Well there's definitely a discrepancy in accpetance percentages among applicants from my school and from the national data. Maybe its jsut that people are smarter/harder working at my school, who knows. Might also be that we hvae a really organized premed process. Then again the final possbility is that the school name helps



48.1
Percent of national applicants to medical school were accepted
89.1
Percent of Duke seniors applying to medical school were accepted
Click to expand...

A name like Duke helps a lot, however, I'm sure those students had good stats. Going to the upper echelon schools allows you to have a 3.5 gpa and still be competitive.
 
ecnerwalc3321 said:
How do med schools know which schools are known for grade inflations or not? Now I'm talking about no-name schools here.
Click to expand...

I'm very fortunate in my case that Grinnell is a top 15 national LAC so I don't have to worry about name recognition, but were the case the same at an unknown college, I’d probably be screwed. In general, most schools use a combination of previous applicants, committee letters, and government-released statistics on standardized test scores and admission rates for colleges to determine the competitiveness and value of a gpa.
 
kevster2001 said:
Well there's definitely a discrepancy in accpetance percentages among applicants from my school and from the national data. Maybe its jsut that people are smarter/harder working at my school, who knows. Might also be that we hvae a really organized premed process. Then again the final possbility is that the school name helps

48.1
Percent of national applicants to medical school were accepted
89.1
Percent of Duke seniors applying to medical school were accepted
Click to expand...
You have to be pretty smart to get into Duke in the first place, so that cuts out a lot of the 50% of applicants that get rejected.

I think your school does matter. I didn't hear a peep from a number of upper tier schools, and my numbers are up there with the best of 'em. Oh, well.

It has been explicitly stated by SDN adcom peeps that schools are more skeptical of a high GPA from Big State U unless you've got a high MCAT to back it up.
 
All else being equal, if you go to a no-name undergrad, you need a big time MCAT score (33+) to be competitive. Enough said.
 
Some adcoms use a "numerical" system where they give you a score for your mcat, gpa, ec's and SOMETIMES the school you attended....if it's an Ivy-they may give you a 4, while if it's a large state school-they may give you a 3, small state school-2....anyways, it MAY matter to SOME schools, but if everything else on your application is high, then you can overcome that barrier!
 
I spoke with an admissions officer from Yale and he said that coming from a small school does not matter as long as you show commitment and that kind of stuff..
 
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Heyeon said:
I spoke with an admissions officer from Yale and he said that coming from a small school does not matter as long as you show commitment and that kind of stuff..
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Exactly what I said. That means you must have a higher GPA at the small school.
 
competitive schools weed their own applicants out. that's how they get high % of acceptances (ie, the person who was talking about duke).

for example, i go to Case Western. while it isn't the most prestigious undergrad, we have a very high average percentage of seniors being accepted to med school. why? because Case weeds out its own students.

I came in freshman year with ~300 premeds in my class (out of 900) where most were top of their class in HS and aced the SATs. a little more than 100 are planning on applying to med school, according to the dean. the premed requirements are ridiculously hard to get As in, so those that don't, drop.

My friends at state schools have a much easier time because the competition isn't as fierce. there are less wanna-be premeds (ie, they don't have orgo classes with 350 other students), less people who were at the top of their HS class, and it's definitely easier to be a big fish in a small pond.
 
My personal experience mostly reflects what everyone has already said. I attended a selective institution and only did mediocre in it (3.4). I then took classes at my local state U, and I was worried that my GPA would be too low, but the premed advisors/admissions people thought it was competitive since I was engineering and attended a school known for it's relatively difficult coursework.

Also, top colleges tend to select for high achieving students, thereby see a higher percentage of people from those schools getting into med school. The competition is 'tougher' at a top school (i.e the curve is harder to beat), so mediocre grades there won't hurt you as much as at a no-name school (it'll still probably hurt you though!).

As another poster said, adcoms are probably going to expect a correspondingly high MCAT to go with a high GPA at a lesser known school than at a well known one.

For example, if you are applying to The Harvard/JohnsHopkins/WashU schools, and you got a 36 MCAT at a school that is not a powerhouse, you will be competing against students with 36 MCAT from Harvard/JohnsHopkins/WashU, so your GPA will have to be 'higher' than the students from 'top schools' in order to be competitive. Given a choice between a 3.7 from Stanford and a 3.7 from no-name U, all else being roughly equal, the Stanford guy will have an advantage. So, 'prestige' does matter, but there are other factors that can make up for that.
 
I know this whole undergrad institution debate is a very controversial issue (especially on this forum), and I guess we'll never know the answer, since adcoms vigorously protect their "trade secrets." But I was wondering if anyone could offer input on my situation:

I went to Hopkins undergrad and followed the premed track, but because I had other interests and commitments (psych major, research, journalism), I ended up taking my year of bio and year of physics at University of Maryland (in the interest of using the summer months productively -- I couldn't afford to pay the high price at Hopkins for extra classes over the summer). I got A's in all my UMd classes, but have about a C average in my chem classes at Hopkins. I guess on the one hand, it shows that I can pull A's in tough science courses, and that Hopkins is just really competitive. But on the other hand, perhaps it looks like I just couldn't handle Hopkins. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks!!
 
MahlerROCKS said:
It's frustrating as heck going to a school that does not inflate grades: if no one earns an A in a class, there is no guarantee that A's will be awarded. In my Organic II class I earned a B, which happened to be the highest grade in the class; sometimes I wish I hadn't turned down Carleton and Vassar because at least they give A's. However, in my experience with students from mid-tier institutions and TTT's, they might have 3.8 gpa's but they're dumb as ****. I'd chose my same school again: I'd rather be well educated and have to explain and struggle with a low gpa then to be grossly incompetent and have a stellar record. I know several schools, Northwestern comes to mind first, stratify the quality of colleges into five tiers: students with community college credits are at the bottom and students from top 20 universities and LAC's are at the top. Now while many people argue to what extent one's college influences their chances at being accepted to a top tier medical school is debatable, but the consistent showing of students from top schools heavily suggests a strong preference if not an outright bias for top tier undergraduate universities and LAC's.
Click to expand...
This is why they make us take the MCAT. Most people think it is really hard for them and that it is easier for others at other schools. Maybe some of these people are right. The MCAT is the great equalizer, and why GPA is not the only factor for your admission. A 4.0 GPA from Easy U. with a 28 MCAT may not be looked upon as favorably as someone with a 3.5 GPA and 35 MCAT from Ridiculously Hard U.
 
MahlerROCKS said:
I'm very fortunate in my case that Grinnell is a top 15 national LAC so I don't have to worry about name recognition, but were the case the same at an unknown college, I’d probably be screwed.
Click to expand...

Where the hell is Ginnell?
 
bugmenot said:
Where the hell is Ginnell?
Click to expand...
Yeah seriously I've never heard of Ginnell. And LAC aren't knwn to have supercompetitive science programs...
 
jota_jota said:
Dumb question, I know, but what the hell is a LAC?
Click to expand...
Liberal Arts College
 
jota_jota said:
This is why they make us take the MCAT. Most people think it is really hard for them and that it is easier for others at other schools. Maybe some of these people are right. The MCAT is the great equalizer, and why GPA is not the only factor for your admission. A 4.0 GPA from Easy U. with a 28 MCAT may not be looked upon as favorably as someone with a 3.5 GPA and 35 MCAT from Ridiculously Hard U.
Click to expand...
What about a 3.5 from Easy U and a 35 MCAT :meanie:
 
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^
Big fish, little pond. Suggests the student had the "brains" to do well at a tougher school, but took the easy way out.
 
Rafa said:
^
Big fish, little pond. Suggests the student had the "brains" to do well at a tougher school, but took the easy way out.
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And slacked off in the process
 
Rafa said:
^
Big fish, little pond. Suggests the student had the "brains" to do well at a tougher school, but took the easy way out.
Click to expand...
Huge generalization, homes. Maybe they wanted the cheaper tuition or staying next to home?
 
Duchess742 said:
I think one of the reasons that "prestigious" undergrad institutions are favored is that the competition for grades is much harder than it is at public schools.
Click to expand...
I'd be careful using public as a synonym for "non-prestigious". I'd put grade competition at UC Berkeley higher than many "prestigious" colleges, including some of the ivies.
 
I go to an Ivy League school and in which students with at least a 3.4 GPA had a 94% chance of getting into med school. I think that this makes sense as the grading especially in premed courses is very difficult and you have to distinguish yourself from all the other bright premeds in order to get an A. I am hoping that med schools would recognize this as it wouldn't be fair if the GPA of people from regular state schools was viewed equally.
 
alright so we all know that weight is generally given to students who come from competitive high achieving schools...that should be obvious to all who exercise their common sense...the question of where the line of justice is drawn is as in life vague and endlessly debatable. what i find particularly revealing and which serves as evidence for my first post is that many students who come from high power institutions think they have been selected for their inherent qualities alone, without realizing that the strata of life in which they exist is the biggest determinant of their position in life as it is for all of us. Any one of us could have been dropped into some obscure and impoverished corner of the world and have almost no chance of attending a u.s. medical school, would that reflect upon our natural god-given talents...i for one think not and furthermore beyond getting some props for competing with some really smart kids i tend to think alot of premeds perhaps more so from ivy type schools could use an eye-opening kick in the teeth to prevent them from ignoring their own arrogance.--ben.
 
Jennyollio said:
So from my reading here the consensus seems to be that where you go for undergrad doesn't really affect your acceptance to medical school. However, this morning I was looking at the applicant profiles and looked up who was accepted to schools such as Cornell, Stanford, Yale, etc. Almost everyone who was accepted came from a very prestigious undergrad school, a very large portion of them being Ivies.

I'm getting a little nervous since I go to a smaller state school in New York. I know people say where you go doesn't matter but then why are those accepted into very good medical schools all coming from very prestigious undergrad schools?
Click to expand...

Ummm.... well..... since the same qualities that make a successful medical school applicant (strong grades, high standardized test scores, good BSing abilities) also make a successful college applicant, it makes sense that people who were able to get into the very best colleges will be more adept at getting admission to med schools than people who went to less selective undergraduate institutions.
 
SilverBandCry! said:
I go to an Ivy League school and in which those with at least a 3.4 had a 94% chance of getting into med school. I think that this makes sense as the grading especially in premed courses is very difficult and you have to distinguish yourself from all the other bright premeds in order to get an A. I am hoping that med schools would recognize this as it wouldn't be fair if the GPA of people from regular state schools was viewed equally.
Click to expand...
I went to a large public university and their website says 79% of students with a 3.4 or above got admitted. 80% with 28 on the MCAT and higher got admitted and 93% of students with both got admitted. (I should clarify: students from my university)

Not making an argument just presenting facts about public schools.
 
kevster2001 said:
Yeah seriously I've never heard of Ginnell. And LAC aren't knwn to have supercompetitive science programs...
Click to expand...

Hahahaha...complete ignorance...boy my condolences when your pompous @ss gets looked over for a seat at your top choice in favor of those LAC kids who coming from such "non-competive" science programs...I'm still laughing at your ignorance by the way, there is more to recognition in academia then a damn basketball team.

And for those who don't know...or who actually care Grinnell College is a small school of 1500 kids in the dead center of Iowa, they have the largest per capita endowment of any university in the nation by a long shot coming in around 1.2 billion...oh and Duke with substantially more students, grad schools and a medical school has an endowment of 3.3 just so you can compare. Here is the list if you don't believe me.

http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research/FY04NESInstitutionsbyTotalAssetsforPress.pdf#search='list%20of%20university%20endowments'
 
snobored18 said:
Hahahaha...complete ignorance...boy my condolences when your pompous @ss gets looked over for a seat at your top choice in favor of those LAC kids who coming from such "non-competive" science programs...I'm still laughing at your ignorance by the way, there is more to recognition in academia then a damn basketball team.
Click to expand...


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
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