If your undergrad school doesn't matter...

[Charles Murphy]

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Is the University of Michigan considered a top school or a big state university? As in, is it a prestigious school like Harvard/JHU/Wash U/Northwestern/Penn? It's considered a peer of Penn and Duke I think. I mean, would it help going to U-M for top schools or is it considered a big state university? I know for sure it is NOT easy to get good grades there especially with the no. 2 largest pre-med pool in the country. Just looking for some clarification...thanks guys.

 

[noonday]

Hahahaha...complete ignorance...boy my condolences when your pompous @ss gets looked over for a seat at your top choice in favor of those LAC kids who coming from such "non-competive" science programs...I'm still laughing at your ignorance by the way, there is more to recognition in academia then a damn basketball team.

right, because you know those ivies. great with the division 1-A (is that the highest? i don't know, i went to an ivy...) sports there. i second the post about the fact that pre med classes are NOT inflated at ivies. mine at harvard curved around a C/C+, so half of people got a C+ or below. somehow, that doesn't seem inflated. sure, you'd have to try really hard to get below a B in a humanities class, but the inflation was not across the board.

fundamentally, when it comes to "does what school make a difference?" maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. but the plain, simple fact is that you go where you go undergrad for whatever reason...love the school, the area, got a great financial aid package, couldn't afford something more pricey, didn't get in somewhere else, whatever. asking the question if that school then makes a difference as to whether you get in or not is moot. entirely pointless. you are you. you apply, you don't apply. at a certain point, you're not transferring to another undergrad, so why even ask the question? it's not like it's something you can change. focus on what you CAN do to make yourself a better applicant, regardless of what school your bachelor's is from...EC's, grades, MCAT, etc. because it's silly to worry about what you can't control...

 

[Rafa]

Huge generalization, homes. Maybe they wanted the cheaper tuition or staying next to home?

Very true. 👍 I was just speculating on an adcom's possible first impressions after seeing GPA, MCAT, and Undergrad. That's where the PS and interview distinguish between the small ponders and the folks who had more practical reasons for attending 'easier' schools.

 

[kevster2001]

Hahahaha...complete ignorance...boy my condolences when your pompous @ss gets looked over for a seat at your top choice in favor of those LAC kids who coming from such "non-competive" science programs...I'm still laughing at your ignorance by the way, there is more to recognition in academia then a damn basketball team.

And for those who don't know...or who actually care Grinnell College is a small school of 1500 kids in the dead center of Iowa, they have the largest per capita endowment of any university in the nation by a long shot coming in around 1.2 billion...oh and Duke with substantially more students, grad schools and a medical school has an endowment of 3.3 just so you can compare. Here is the list if you don't believe me.

http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research/FY04NESInstitutionsbyTotalAssetsforPress.pdf#search='list%20of%20university%20endowments'

So what you're saying is that grinnel has harder science courses than duke because you guys have a larger endowment per capita? That's the only evidence you can provide? That you guys have more money? Btw, i never said grinnel didn't have a competitive science program, only that it isn't as competitive in comparison to school that are known to contain a ton of premeds. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like LACs mostly attract students that are interested in things other than the hard sciences.

 

[45408]

Hahahaha...complete ignorance...boy my condolences when your pompous @ss gets looked over for a seat at your top choice in favor of those LAC kids who coming from such "non-competive" science programs...I'm still laughing at your ignorance by the way, there is more to recognition in academia then a damn basketball team.

Sure doesn't take much to amuse you, I guess. Probably played with those spring-loaded door stoppers for hours as a child.

 

[coco11]

haha grinnel? what's that?

 

[45408]

Very true. 👍 I was just speculating on an adcom's possible first impressions after seeing GPA, MCAT, and Undergrad. That's where the PS and interview distinguish between the small ponders and the folks who had more practical reasons for attending 'easier' schools.

I would agree that a mediocre GPA (3.4) and a high MCAT (33+) from a big state school is more likely to look suspicious than if it were from SHRIMPY (I think that's all of 'em 😛 Stanford/Harvard/Rice/Idunno/MIT/Princeton/Yale), but if you have a reasonable GPA (3.7+) and the same MCAT, I'd think that many people would consider that to be pretty academically successful.

The bigger concern about the size of your pond seems to be in the LORs - being the "best chem student I'v evAr taught" from a liberal arts school of 1500 isn't quite the same as being the "best engineering student I've ever met" at MIT.

It's all a gamble. If your application reviewer is someone who went to a big state school and then sailed into Harvard and annihilated the competition, they might be more likely to interview someone from a big state school. Meanwhile, another adcommer who has interviewed a lot of idiots from one school might not bother interviewing anyone else from that school. Knamean?

 

[snobored18]

So what you're saying is that grinnel has harder science courses than duke because you guys have a larger endowment per capita? That's the only evidence you can provide? That you guys have more money? Btw, i never said grinnel didn't have a competitive science program, only that it isn't as competitive in comparison to school that are known to contain a ton of premeds. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like LACs mostly attract students that are interested in things other than the hard sciences.

Ummm no...what I am saying is you have no basis for comparison and that making blanket generalizations displays a great deal of ignorance on your part. Something you continued in this post and thus I will not dignify you with a post containing similar unfounded assumptions in the reverse. Look dude, LACs are just a microcosm of a large university, sure there are fewer pre-meds but there are fewer people in those classes fighting for fewer A's on the same curves you have. Top LACs attract just as accomplished student bodies in terms of SAT and GPA as the top national universities. In the end this is an arguement neither of us will win, becuase there is absolutely no means to do so...just accept the fact there are other schools out there as rigorous as yours...I have.

 

[kevster2001]

Ummm no...what I am saying is you have no basis for comparison and that making blanket generalizations displays a great deal of ignorance on your part. Something you continued in this post and thus I will not dignify you with a post containing similar unfounded assumptions in the reverse. Look dude, LACs are just a microcosm of a large university, sure there are fewer pre-meds but there are fewer people in those classes fighting for fewer A's on the same curves you have. Top LACs attract just as accomplished student bodies in terms of SAT and GPA as the top national universities. In the end this is an arguement neither of us will win, but if you continue with the pompous attitude you will succeed at one thing...making yourself look like an ignorant, insecure @ss. Peace.

you're the one that's throwing around insults like it's going out of style. I just didn't know science courses at grinnel are as competitive as science courses at MIT. Learnin' something everyday

 

[snobored18]

you're the one that's throwing around insults like it's going out of style. I just didn't know science courses at grinnel are as competitive as science courses at MIT. Learnin' something everyday

Yeah I'll give you MIT and Cal Poly if you want that...glad you're learning something though maybe there is hope for you afterall.

 

[kevster2001]

Yeah I'll give you MIT and Cal Poly if you want that...glad you're learning something though maybe there is hope for you afterall.

By the way, when I said "not supercompetitive" I didn't mean "non-competitive" which somehow you extrapolated. Maybe it's a false assumption but I thought most premed gunners dont attend LACs since the curriculum requires a lot of humanities classes and not one-tracked.

 

[45408]

Ummm no...what I am saying is you have no basis for comparison and that making blanket generalizations displays a great deal of ignorance on your part. Something you continued in this post and thus I will not dignify you with a post containing similar unfounded assumptions in the reverse. Look dude, LACs are just a microcosm of a large university, sure there are fewer pre-meds but there are fewer people in those classes fighting for fewer A's on the same curves you have. Top LACs attract just as accomplished student bodies in terms of SAT and GPA as the top national universities. In the end this is an arguement neither of us will win, becuase there is absolutely no means to do so...just accept the fact there are other schools out there as rigorous as yours...I have.

Mom just bought you a thesaurus?

 

[kevster2001]

Mom just bought you a thesaurus?

They come free w/ every LAC admission

 

[Rafa]

They come free w/ every LAC admission

Zing!

 

[snobored18]

They come free w/ every LAC admission

yeah I really feel like I got screwed when my incoming class didn't get iPODs...

 

[MahlerROCKS]

yeah I really feel like I got screwed when my incoming class didn't get iPODs...

Burn!

 

[hellodoc]

Well, when you are talking about getting into Yale, Students from
SUNY Stony Brook got accepted into Yale Medical School check the profiles 🙂

 

[Will Ferrell]

wtf... Grinnell is prestigious and very selective.

 

[SRK85]

You can either go to the top tier schools and butt heads with the other smart guys for a C, or go to podunk U and be top of the class.

Either way, you will have to be good to get into a top tier med school.

You said it very well I go to a very unkown school Wesley College. And I have been one of the top students in most of my classes.

 

[notdeadyet]

It all comes back to your MCAT. Adcoms are aware that there are easy classes and easy professors at every college. If you really think that whatever LAC or ivy you go has consistently impossibly hard classes, you ought to get out more.

If you have an acceptable GPA and great MCAT, med schools will smile on you. Regardless of where you went to school. This shows you learned the material. Maybe you slacked in class, but maybe your classes were hard.

If you have a great GPA and low MCAT, med schools will not smile on you. Regardless of where you went to school. It looks like you didn't learn the material. Maybe you had a bad test day, but maybe you took easy classes.

Great GPA, great MCAT: you're in. Poor GPA, poor MCAT: you're out.

Concentrate on doing well on the MCAT. What college you attend is something you have no control over now. Trying to generalize about what every adcom out there thinks of your school is just intellectual masturbation.

 

[dbhvt]

'Where the hell is grinnell' is something like a school moto, right snobored?

For the record, I know some grinnell kids, and they could beat the shiit out of all the ivy league kids I know with their hands tied behind their backs. So I suggest you lay off the sno.

 

[dbhvt]

intellectual masturbation.

More like a pissing contest than jacking off. And there's nothing intellectual about it. Pure brute ego.

 

[SeventhSon]

first point: adcoms are definitely biased towards ivy league or high-caliber schools.

second point: to an extent, that's the way it should be. People are a lot more familiar with what it takes to get X GPA from an ivy compared to an X GPA from a state school... the number is better characterized. The sword can cut both ways though. You can be at a top school with outrageous grade inflation (stanford) or at a school with notorious grade deflation (UChicago).

final, and most important point: undergrad school will never help a mediocre applicant get into a good school, and a less prestigious undergrad school will not keep a cream-of-the-crop student out of a top school.

(exceptions: hopkins is notorious for heavy, heavy ivy league favoritism, and UCSF seems to reject everyone out of state that is not from an ivy or other high-power undergrad, regardless of their credentials)

 

[socerbal94]

yeah I really feel like I got screwed when my incoming class didn't get iPODs...

I went to duke and didnt get an ipod! Im still pissed off about that one.

Anyway, I got C's in 4 of my premed classes due to the INSANE competition at Duke. Every grade is on a curve, and you have to be the best of the best to get A's or B's. I'm also from NC and have a bunch of friends down the road at UNC. I was pissed about my shi*load of C's so I compared my old physics, gen chem, and orgo tests to some of my friends' tests at UNC. There was no comparison. UNC just had simpler, easier, material. And it was all multiple choice. I never got to have a multiple choice test.

This being said, I did get into a good med school, and I think that part of it was the fact that adcomms knew that I went through a rigorous science program.

Going to a very competitive LAC might hurt you, as you have to go through a very hard program curved against other smart kids, but you have no "name" recognition. How are adcomms supposed to know that your LAC has a tough, curved program when they have never heard of your college? Just seems like it would be harder to get into med school from a selective LAC then from a big state school or a prestigious ivy league school.

peece

 

[45408]

'Where the hell is grinnell' is something like a school moto, right snobored?

For the record, I know some grinnell kids, and they could beat the shiit out of all the ivy league kids I know with their hands tied behind their backs. So I suggest you lay off the sno.

Well, my e-black belt is blacker than those Grinnell kiddies, so they can back off!

 

[kevster2001]

Well, my e-black belt is blacker than those Grinnell kiddies, so they can back off!

Does your belt hail from compton

 

[jlq3d3]

You are completly wrong. All LACs are is a a college with no graduate schools. They are known for preparing students very well. I go to Stanford, and my genius chem TA went to Grinnell.

So what you're saying is that grinnel has harder science courses than duke because you guys have a larger endowment per capita? That's the only evidence you can provide? That you guys have more money? Btw, i never said grinnel didn't have a competitive science program, only that it isn't as competitive in comparison to school that are known to contain a ton of premeds. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like LACs mostly attract students that are interested in things other than the hard sciences.

 

[45408]

Anyway, I got C's in 4 of my premed classes due to the INSANE competition at Duke. Every grade is on a curve, and you have to be the best of the best to get A's or B's. I'm also from NC and have a bunch of friends down the road at UNC. I was pissed about my shi*load of C's so I compared my old physics, gen chem, and orgo tests to some of my friends' tests at UNC. There was no comparison. UNC just had simpler, easier, material. And it was all multiple choice. I never got to have a multiple choice test.

Might have been an easy prof that semester. Some students from a nearby private school thought that my big state school was super easy because our summer genetics class was cake. It was - but it was also much easier than any regular semester course I'd taken.

 

[45408]

You are completly wrong. All LACs are is a a college with no graduate schools. They are known for preparing students very well. I go to Stanford, and my genius chem TA went to Grinnell.

Depends on the school. You guys are making such sweeping generalizations. My fiancee went to a SLAC, and the pre-med students there don't do well on the MCAT very often. On the other hand, a friend of mine is at Stetson, which I'd never heard of, but apparently they've got a very strong biochem program and good pre-med prep.

SLAC = small liberal arts college. Not "awesome pre-med prep" nor "horrible pre-med prep." Depends on the school, the student, and the prof teaching that semester.

 

[Hercules022]

Fyi, SDN is intensely, irrationally hostile to the idea of school prestige. Everyone will also deny that med school name matters for residency.

This is the wisest post on this entire thread. People can debate the reason (are the students smarter, schools viewed better, etc.) but it is an undeniable fact that if your undergrad is an Ivy or equivalent, your school name will be vastly over-represented at many medical schools. You can see this from looking at any good medical school that publishes where it's undergrads came from. I don't understand how people can debate facts (I think the US has 55 states! No, it has 57!) but we continue to do so anyways. Now, if the thread were to be called "WHY do Ivies have so many more students get into med school?" then you have a better question.


We need to sticky a thread with the acceptanc rates from various undergrad programs into medical schools, and then whenever these "Do Ivies matter" threads are created, someone just posts a link to the stickied thread.

 

[amnesia]

Most people would want to go to an Ivy League... In a cosmo poll, Princeton was #1 among teens.

 

[amnesia]

Most people would want to go to an Ivy League... In a cosmo poll, Princeton was #1 among teens.

I think we shouldn't just say any Ivy... HYP prop up the Ivy League name quite a bit.

 

[45408]

We need to sticky a thread with the acceptanc rates from various undergrad programs into medical schools, and then whenever these "Do Ivies matter" threads are created, someone just posts a link to the stickied thread.

That's not going to answer the question. A selective school will have better pre-meds than a non-selective school, period. Those applicants will then be accepted at higher rates, but you can't just state that it's because their school's prestige helped them. You're more likely to find guys who run fast in the NFL than in the regular population, ya know?

 

[tch001]

You are completly wrong. All LACs are is a a college with no graduate schools. They are known for preparing students very well. I go to Stanford, and my genius chem TA went to Grinnell.

I go to a small LAC that also has a graduate school...

 

[beetlerum]

That's not going to answer the question. A selective school will have better pre-meds than a non-selective school, period. Those applicants will then be accepted at higher rates, but you can't just state that it's because their school's prestige helped them. You're more likely to find guys who run fast in the NFL than in the regular population, ya know?

The problem with that argument is that there are so many more applicants from non-selective schools. HYPS fills 35%+ of most top 10 schools. Yes, they have better applicants on the whole, absolutely. But there are only maybe 500 of them! So even with a much much lower proportion of similar quality in people from non ivies, you still wouldn't expect such disproportionate representation.

Actually the real evidence that undergrad helps is in comparing success of HYP kids to those from lesser ivies. HY in particular are just so much more represented than Cornell, Brown, Penn, and so on. But are the H premeds really that better than the Cornell kids? Unlikely.

 

[Hypothalamus]

I think we attend the same school. Cornhell, correct?

I agree with you completely. I've studied at two state schools and am earning my degree at Cornhell, so I feel I have the perspective to comment. The intelligence and effort required to earn a 3.4 at Cornhell would earn a student a 3.8+ at most others. Then again, our courses are insane.

I go to an Ivy League school and in which students with at least a 3.4 GPA had a 94% chance of getting into med school. I think that this makes sense as the grading especially in premed courses is very difficult and you have to distinguish yourself from all the other bright premeds in order to get an A. I am hoping that med schools would recognize this as it wouldn't be fair if the GPA of people from regular state schools was viewed equally.

 

[earlybird]

well I think it is sometimes unfair to judge a student base on their school. I go to one of the least known cuny schools which already puts me at a disavantage because outside of ny cuny's are not well known (maybe nj, pa, and ct schools are familiar with it).

now my point is my gpa is a 3.0 most of my prereq are c's and although some people may think the work at my school fluff it is not my prof are stickler with the exception of my bio prof (and I took the easiest bio prof in my school) they kicked our butt. from what I know out of 30 something orgo students for both I and II 4 got a's 1 had a b+ and the majority of the rest had c's the disparity is even worst in physics and gen chem because those classes have more than a 100 students.

my sat was a 870 not exactly what will get you in a upper tier school, but my mcat is a 39. reason being most of the students in my class worked at least 20 hrs a week I like many others worked full time. so we may not have the highest gpa because we have many other obligation to take care off outside of school. so some of the "fluff" school students have more than school on their plate.

 

[riff raff]

oh yeah? Well my school could beat up your school. My school can bench press 400lbs with both arms tied behind its back, all whilst singing the macarena. I bet your school can't top that.

 

[kevster2001]

well I think it is sometimes unfair to judge a student base on their school. I go to one of the least known cuny schools which already puts me at a disavantage because outside of ny cuny's are not well known (maybe nj, pa, and ct schools are familiar with it).

now my point is my gpa is a 3.0 most of my prereq are c's and although some people may think the work at my school fluff it is not my prof are stickler with the exception of my bio prof (and I took the easiest bio prof in my school) they kicked our butt. from what I know out of 30 something orgo students for both I and II 4 got a's 1 had a b+ and the majority of the rest had c's the disparity is even worst in physics and gen chem because those classes have more than a 100 students.

my sat was a 870 not exactly what will get you in a upper tier school, but my mcat is a 39. reason being most of the students in my class worked at least 20 hrs a week I like many others worked full time. so we may not have the highest gpa because we have many other obligation to take care off outside of school. so some of the "fluff" school students have more than school on their plate.

You should take some time from your busy schedule to add in a few commas and periods.

 

[MrDreamWeaver]

Either way you slice it, things aren't going to be fair.

You can't conclude that pre-meds at state schools aren't as intelligent at those at Ivies. Many kids don't have the money to attend an expensive private school so they settle for the state school instead. To be quite honest, I had the choice of a very prestigious school or a full ride scholarship to a lower tier school. It was a choice between working full time in college to go to university of prestige, or relaxing and focusing on my school work at university of less-prestige. Should I be penalized for my choice? Absolutely not.

On the other side of the coin, it seems quite obvious that some schools have a more difficult curriculum. However, one would assume these students will get better MCAT scores to compensate for this. In fact, this is why the MCAT exists: credibility!

Perhaps LizzyM could help us out here. You guys make me laugh, don't speculate then attack someone else for their speculations. Nobody here knows what goes on, so let's seek the advice of a professional: LizzyM.

 

[earlybird]

You should take some time from your busy schedule to add in a few commas and periods.

sorry 🙄 but not patient enough to bother reading what I post. never been a fan of writing or typing so if its not being graded why bother.

 

[dbhvt]

Perhaps LizzyM could help us out here. You guys make me laugh, don't speculate then attack someone else for their speculations. Nobody here knows what goes on, so let's seek the advice of a professional: LizzyM.

Just do a search for posts by LizzyM with the word 'fish' in them.

 

[DrVanNostran]

I wish I left high school with the mentality that a better college would get me further. I stayed at the school that was close to home and had a scholarship. Thats one of my biggest regrets, I wish I had went to one of the better schools that I was accepted to...damn the 4 minute drive to school :/

 

[MTGas2B]

Just don't become a statistic.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/117/6/1939

I bet our numbers are a lot lower at The Montana State University.

 

[45408]

I go to a small LAC that also has a graduate school...

No, you don't.

You go to a small LAU. Colleges don't have grad schools - universities do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College#Universities_and_colleges

 

[45408]

Just do a search for posts by LizzyM with the word 'fish' in them.

here 😀 Basically, if you've got a high GPA from Podunk College, you'll need an MCAT over your target school's average. If you've got a low GPA from Podunk and a mediocre MCAT, you're screwed, period. Hard professors, long work hours, got sick before the exam....not gonna help.

There are state schools that are academic powerhouses (aka "the public Ivies") . When you say "well-known" school what you may mean is a school that is difficult to get into. There are also some relatively unknown schools that are hard to get into. They might not be household names (Williams is one that comes to mind) but they are known in adcom circles as expeptionally good schools. Then there are those "well-known" schools that are known best not for their academics but for sports (see how many get NCAA bids this afternoon...)

If what you mean by "people who can't go to well-known schools" you mean those who go to schools that are easy to get into and schools that are known for not being very academically demanding (these can be state schools or private), we look for someone who has an excellent gpa (bright fish in a pond without much competition) and an MCAT that is equal or better to the class average. Having an excellent MCAT shows that there isn't a "big fish" thing going on but that head to head with the students from the "big-name" schools, this student is in the same league.

You *will* be compared with other Ivy grads. The 3.x from the Ivy is the first thing an adcom member will notice. The second thing is the MCAT. Then the post-bach courses. Your essay will need to address how you overcame whatever was going on during your undergrad years (or what you were doing that made academics a low priority --- sports, musical performance, journalism etc) that left you with a sub-par gpa.

If your undergrad college was easy to get into and admitted most applicants with SAT scores of 1000 and above, then you are going to be considered a big fish in a small pond (it might be easier to be an academic stand-out in that school than at a school where most of the students had SATs of 1400 or better). So, you not only have to have an exceptionally high gpa but you need to do at least as well on the MCAT as the students from the "well-known" schools (level playing field & all that). A MCAT below a med school's average is not going to go over big if you are from a school that is not an academic power-house.

You know that it is easier to get into some undergrad institutions than others. You know that the average SAT score at some schools is 1400 and at others it is 1000.

Now imagine that both schools teach Chem 101 and grade on a curve. If you are talented enough to get into either one, you are going to earn a higher gpa at the school with the "on average" less talented students (given the same amount of effort). Even if there is no curve, an exceptionally talented student is going to be "average" at a top 10 research university and "well above average" compared with fellow students at Smallville State College or Faithfilled Bible College.

So, the medical schools see a 4.0 or 3.7 frmo Smallville or Faithfilled and they don't consider it comparable to a similar gpa at a "name brand" school because the caliber of students is "on average" not as high. A very high MCAT can provide evidence to disprove the "big fish in a small pond" phenomenon that we sometimes see at no-name schools.

 

[tch001]

No, you don't.

You go to a small LAU. Colleges don't have grad schools - universities do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College#Universities_and_colleges

we have graduate programs, which award master degrees. students usually refer to it as our graduate school because everything is completley seperate from undergraduate classes, but I guess it is technically referred to as "graduate programs". Anyway, my point was some LAC do offer graduate degrees.

http://www.mcdaniel.edu/126_335.htm

 

[MahlerROCKS]

we have graduate programs, which award master degrees. students usually refer to it as our graduate school because everything is completley seperate from undergraduate classes, but I guess it is technically referred to as "graduate programs". Anyway, my point was some LAC do offer graduate degrees.

http://www.mcdaniel.edu/126_335.htm

Bryn Maw, Bard and I think Middlebury grant masters, but they all primarily have an undergraduate focus, thus they are LAC's

 

[HopeFaith]

actually, it's no secret that grade inflation is rampant at many ivy league schools.

Really? Too bad it didn't work for me?

 

[LizzyM]

here 😀 Basically, if you've got a high GPA from Podunk College, you'll need an MCAT over your target school's average. If you've got a low GPA from Podunk and a mediocre MCAT, you're screwed, period. Hard professors, long work hours, got sick before the exam....not gonna help.

Thanks, Prowler. I pretty much take a day off from the board and you are right there with some selections from the LizzyM archive. 😀