One More Try? A former med student

BouncingBack · Jul 18, 2013

Couple years ago, I was a med student at US allopathic medical school. I did pretty well my first two years and passed the Step 1 above average on my first try. However, I struggled a little bit during my clinical rotations and didn't get grades; eventually, I was dismissed. I never got any disciplinary or unprofessional issues mentioned in my evaluations.

I want to try to give this one more shot. I am thinking about doing DO. I have a good undergrad GPA and MCAT (MCAT I might have to retake). What do you guys think? Is this worth it?
What are my chances?

Law2Doc · Jul 18, 2013

BouncingBack said:
Couple years ago, I was a med student at US allopathic medical school. I did pretty well my first two years and passed the Step 1 above average on my first try. However, I struggled a little bit during my clinical rotations and didn't get grades; eventually, I was dismissed. I never got any disciplinary or unprofessional issues mentioned in my evaluations.

I want to try to give this one more shot. I am thinking about doing DO. I have a good undergrad GPA and MCAT (MCAT I might have to retake). What do you guys think? Is this worth it?
What are my chances?

Typically the best chance at getting back to a US med school is to plead your case to the place you were dismissed from. They know the actual circumstances and have some general interest in seeing the people they accept turn into doctors. No other program, MD or DO are going to want to touch you. Your grades, mcat, step score are irrelevant -- the dismissal from a US med school is the only data point they will focus on. You have to realize that there are an enormous number of people vying for every spot, most without serious blemishes, so someone with a big red flag isn't going to get much consideration. If your home school won't take you back, nobody else will -- you may need to look offshore -- your odds of getting in at another US program are lousy.

DrMidlife · Jul 18, 2013

You don't get dismissed for "struggling a little bit" in 3rd year rotations. Whatever happened there belongs to you and will follow you forever. Face it. Own it. Fix it. What do successful students do on rotations, what do doctors do every day on the job? Do that. Be that.

You have two battles on your hands here:
1. As L2D says, you need to get your former med school to acknowledge that you exist and to be interested in giving you another chance. You are starting from bad apple status. This battle could be incredibly difficult and you may need to do years of work to get that chance.
2. If you get a med school to give you a chance, you still have to get through rotations. Rotations aren't changing. You have to be the one who changes.

Best of luck to you.

Goro · Jul 18, 2013

Sorry to be harsh, but I have to be realistic; at my school, we'd pretty much reject you outright.

You had your chance, and now it's time to do something else. PA, NP, RN..social worker...but it's time to move on.

BouncingBack said:
Couple years ago, I was a med student at US allopathic medical school. I did pretty well my first two years and passed the Step 1 above average on my first try. However, I struggled a little bit during my clinical rotations and didn't get grades; eventually, I was dismissed. I never got any disciplinary or unprofessional issues mentioned in my evaluations.

I want to try to give this one more shot. I am thinking about doing DO. I have a good undergrad GPA and MCAT (MCAT I might have to retake). What do you guys think? Is this worth it?
What are my chances?

thefritz · Jul 18, 2013

DrMidlife said:
You don't get dismissed for "struggling a little bit" in 3rd year rotations.

2nd. You're not telling us something. I hid in the shadows third year, left early, showed up late, studied for shelfs the night before, and did a lot of other no-nos, and I still got B's and up. If you want good advice, you need to tell the whole story.

BouncingBack · Jul 18, 2013

thefritz said:
2nd. You're not telling us something. I hid in the shadows third year, left early, showed up late, studied for shelfs the night before, and did a lot of other no-nos, and I still got B's and up. If you want good advice, you need to tell the whole story.

Well, it is very difficult to explan. It was a combination of things. I never hurt or injured patients or did something that residents or attendings did not want me to do. I also never did anything very unprofessional, illegal or illicit. At the end, most of my evaluations pointed out that I had trouble with oral case presentations, could not put all the information together and come up with differential diagnosis, was too quiet and aloof, was not actively involved with other team members, and did not seem like he understood why certain procedures were performed, etc. I was presented in front of a committee and had to plea for my case. They voted to boot me out. I appealed but they did not change their mind.

You don't have to believe me. That is what is written in evaluations. Three faculty members I got to know there (one is an IM attending and the other is a Ped attending) are still willing to write me strong letters of recommendation. Plus, the student dean said he would write me a supportive letter.

Of course, if killed or harmed a patient, did not show up to work on time or at all, did drugs or had alcohol problems, sexually assualted or harassed someone, was constantly in bad relationships with hospital staff and so on, I probably would have less chance to get back in. I have enough common sense to know that...

Law2Doc · Jul 18, 2013

BouncingBack said:
... Three faculty members I got to know there (one is an IM attending and the other is a Ped attending) are still willing to write me strong letters of recommendation. Plus, the student dean said he would write me a supportive letter.
...

You don't need letters to send elsewhere. You need these people to pull strings and get you another chance at their own institution.

DIce3 · Jul 18, 2013

OP, I have seen people singled out for unclear reasons and hurt or cut. It is what it is. Medical education can be a brutal and unfair environment for those who do not totally conform to the mold. You should restart and it is worth it.

BouncingBack · Jul 18, 2013

Law2Doc said:
You don't need letters to send elsewhere. You need these people to pull strings and get you another chance at their own institution.

Three against 17? It will be very tough to overcome... some doctors went and spoke to the Dean on my behalf, but nothing changed.

Yeah, it sucks how it can be very political. However, I am willing to get back in and try again elsewhere though.

Gfliptastic · Jul 18, 2013

BouncingBack said:
Well, it is very difficult to explan. It was a combination of things. I never hurt or injured patients or did something that residents or attendings did not want me to do. I also never did anything very unprofessional, illegal or illicit. At the end, most of my evaluations pointed out that I had trouble with oral case presentations, could not put all the information together and come up with differential diagnosis, was too quiet and aloof, was not actively involved with other team members, and did not seem like he understood why certain procedures were performed, etc. I was presented in front of a committee and had to plea for my case. They voted to boot me out. I appealed but they did not change their mind.

You don't have to believe me. That is what is written in evaluations. Three faculty members I got to know there (one is an IM attending and the other is a Ped attending) are still willing to write me strong letters of recommendation. Plus, the student dean said he would write me a supportive letter.

Of course, if killed or harmed a patient, did not show up to work on time or at all, did drugs or had alcohol problems, sexually assualted or harassed someone, was constantly in bad relationships with hospital staff and so on, I probably would have less chance to get back in. I have enough common sense to know that...

IDK if this is a trolling or what, but aside from the good/strong posts by Law2Doc I am so in agreement w/ I didn't think it was possible to be in more accord w/ something on the Internet and in a forum, bolded is basically what being a doctor will entail!!!!

If you don't get it, despite your aplomb for basic sciences, try a different career. I just can't imagine a licensed practicing physician not being extremely competent in those areas. And I think you are a better fit in a mid-level career because of that.

I know it takes time to develop a working clinical proficiency - YES. I wasn't a sub-I when I stepped foot in a hospital after basic sciences by any means. But let's say ideally in the most perfect world you get your school to take you back (getting in at another place is so remote we shouldn't really even discuss it). How do you expect to pass CS/CK??? Step 3?

If this isn't a trolling thread, then my answer is to consider mid-level stuff where you don't have to do any of that stuff.

BouncingBack · Jul 18, 2013

I did get better throughout the third year. In addition, most of my classmates even acknowledged that towards the end of the third year, I was doing it better than them (in oral case presentations, write-ups, coming up with differential and management steps, etc) However, those early evals hurt my grades in some rotations. Some rotations counted 70-75% on evals and the rest on the shelf exams. It didn't matter that I got 78 to 92 on my shelf exams ( I believe ~70 was the mean). I am confident that the second time around, I can do things a lot better...

This is what bothers me about some people in medicine. Once they have a certain perception of you, they will always see you that way. It doesn't matter what happens. They don't care whether or not you change and/or get better.

Silent Cool · Jul 18, 2013

BouncingBack said:
Couple years ago, I was a med student at US allopathic medical school. I did pretty well my first two years and passed the Step 1 above average on my first try. However, I struggled a little bit during my clinical rotations and didn't get grades; eventually, I was dismissed. I never got any disciplinary or unprofessional issues mentioned in my evaluations.

I want to try to give this one more shot. I am thinking about doing DO. I have a good undergrad GPA and MCAT (MCAT I might have to retake). What do you guys think? Is this worth it?
What are my chances?

Check your PM.
😎

SunsFun · Jul 18, 2013

BouncingBack said:
I did get better throughout the third year. In addition, most of my classmates even acknowledged that towards the end of the third year, I was doing it better than them (in oral case presentations, write-ups, coming up with differential and management steps, etc) However, those early evals hurt my grades in some rotations. Some rotations counted 70-75% on evals and the rest on the shelf exams. It didn't matter that I got 78 to 92 on my shelf exams ( I believe ~70 was the mean). I am confident that the second time around, I can do things a lot better...

This is what bothers me about some people in medicine. Once they have a certain perception of you, they will always see you that way. It doesn't matter what happens. They don't care whether or not you change and/or get better.

As a premed reading it, what you wrote here sound very discouraging. How often does this happen? I cannot fathom being kicked out from med school in a third year just because I was not that good at something initially.

BouncingBack · Jul 18, 2013

SunsFun said:
As a premed reading it, what you wrote here sound very discouraging. How often does this happen? I cannot fathom being kicked out from med school in a third year just because I was not that good at something initially.

I can tell you this. The eval system is very subjective. If you can develop good relationships and connections with others, esp your residents and attendings, they will give you good evals and grades, regardless how you perform, as long as it is reasonable. However, I was one of those quiet guys that only spoke when asked - never initiated much or connected well with others. Well, I learned my lesson, and in the future, I know what I need to do.

I know few others that got kicked out during the fourth year. One was due to some professional issue that came up, and the other was due to failing shelf and board exams...

SunsFun · Jul 18, 2013

Wow. Thanks for the advice and best of luck to you!

beBrave · Jul 18, 2013

SunsFun said:
As a premed reading it, what you wrote here sound very discouraging. How often does this happen? I cannot fathom being kicked out from med school in a third year just because I was not that good at something initially.

As a Pre-Med and Health Science Grad student, this sounds like someone who doesn't take their job seriously. If a person is receiving passing scores on exams and class room evaluations but does very poorly during rotation evaluations, then it doesn't sound like they are struggling from an academic aspect; rather it sounds like they don't care. OP sounds like someone just going through the motions with a hands off approach.

Everything OP mentioned goes hand in hand; not paying attention to patients details, not asking questions or showing interest, appearing distanced from peers; and doesn't appear to understand how procedures are performed because their mind is somewhere else. We all have our own problems, be it social, anxiety or even depression however when engaging a patient, you have to focus on them. It doesn't sound like OP was making any effort to do this and I doubt this was suddenly sprung on them, usually when you are doing something wrong people will tell you. Everyone makes mistakes however OP doesn't sound incompetent, rather they sound disinterested.

SunsFun · Jul 18, 2013

beBrave said:
As a Pre-Med and Health Science Grad student, this sounds like someone who doesn't take their job seriously. If a person is receiving passing scores on exams and class room evaluations but does very poorly during rotation evaluations, then it doesn't sound like they are struggling from an academic aspect; rather it sounds like they don't care. OP sounds like someone just going through the motions with a hands off approach.

Everything OP mentioned goes hand in hand; not paying attention to patients details, not asking questions or showing interest, appearing distanced from peers; and doesn't appear to understand how procedures are performed because their mind is somewhere else. We all have our own problems, be it social, anxiety or even depression however when engaging a patient, you have to focus on them. It doesn't sound like OP was making any effort to do this and I doubt this was suddenly sprung on them, usually when you are doing something wrong people will tell you. Everyone makes mistakes however OP doesn't sound incompetent, rather they sound disinterested.

You may be right but from his last post it seemed like he cleaned up his act in the end yet still got dismissed. And his reply to me shows that it may have been his shyness and not building relationships outside of question/answer that have gotten him in trouble in the first place.

beBrave · Jul 19, 2013

SunsFun said:
You may be right but from his last post it seemed like he cleaned up his act in the end yet still got dismissed. And his reply to me shows that it may have been his shyness and not building relationships outside of question/answer that have gotten him in trouble in the first place.

OP sounds like someone sitting at the back of the class for half of the semester and then playing catch up when they have failed the mid-term and quizzes. Now consider this, what has OP been doing the last couple years? Maybe I overlooked it however I don't see anything about him working in patient care, volunteering, remaining active in the Medical field or showing any signs that he has done some soul searching and made effort to correct the behavior that ultimately caused him to be dismissed from medical school. If your passion is Medicine, you don't simply walk away from it for a couple of years (doing nothing in between) and then come back and say, "can I have another try".

BouncingBack · Jul 19, 2013

beBrave said:
OP sounds like someone sitting at the back of the class for half of the semester and then playing catch up when they have failed the mid-term and quizzes. Now consider this, what has OP been doing the last couple years? Maybe I overlooked it however I don't see anything about him working in patient care, volunteering, remaining active in the Medical field or showing any signs that he has done some soul searching and made effort to correct the behavior that ultimately caused him to be dismissed from medical school. If your passion is Medicine, you don't simply walk away from it for a couple of years (doing nothing in between) and then come back and say, "can I have another try".

I was a HPSP scholarship recipient while in med school. Therefore, I have been serving in the Military oversea as a military officer the past couple years. I am also a prior serviceman. Yeah, I guess I have been doing nothing. But it is not like anyone gives a damn about the Soldiers anyway. Well, two things I have going after all this is that I did not incur any debt and that I still have two years of GI Bill left, which would cover two years of medical school...

beBrave · Jul 19, 2013

BouncingBack said:
I was a HPSP scholarship recipient while in med school. Therefore, I have been serving in the Military oversea as a military officer the past couple years. I am also a prior serviceman. Yeah, I guess I have been doing nothing. But it is not like anyone gives a damn about the Soldiers anyway. Well, two things I have going after all this is that I did not incur any debt and that I still have two years of GI Bill left, which would cover two years of medical school...

Finally you show your true colors. You could care less about patients. Its all about "me, me, me, me, me". Why would it matter if you were in the Military? Americans not caring about soldiers and you not caring about patients, I don't see the correlation. You feel thankful that you wasted over $100,000 that could have helped someone else. Troll!

BouncingBack · Jul 19, 2013

beBrave said:
Finally you show your true colors. You could care less about patients. Its all about "me, me, me, me, me". So what if you were in the Military? Americans not caring about soldiers and you not caring about patients, I don't see the correlation. You feel thankful that you wasted over $100,000 that could have helped someone else. Troll!

I was being sarcastic with the Soliders comment. It has nothing to do with what happened during med school or whether or not I want to pursue medicine again.

Also, I pointed out how I did not incur any debt, since some people had asked me in the past about all the potential debt that I would incur, if I go through this all over again. I was lucky enough not to have any, and yes, I still have some funding left from the post-911 GI BILL.

Five0tomed68 · Jul 19, 2013

BouncingBack said:
I was a HPSP scholarship recipient while in med school. Therefore, I have been serving in the Military oversea as a military officer the past couple years. I am also a prior serviceman. Yeah, I guess I have been doing nothing. But it is not like anyone gives a damn about the Soldiers anyway. Well, two things I have going after all this is that I did not incur any debt and that I still have two years of GI Bill left, which would cover two years of medical school...

As Marshall from How I Met Your Mother would say, "Lawyered!"

@BeBrave: You made some pretty heavy presumptions above. I didn't see where a performance analysis was requested. Since we are talking about behaviors, after you get into medical school (I believe you will succeed b/c you seem intelligent and extremely driven), there is one thing residents and attendings can not stand: A know it all. My assumption of you making it into med school might be brought on by this personality trait I see through many of your postings. I may be off on my assumption and I apologize in advance if I am.

@bouncingback: I'd say stick with the first couple responses. The responses that came from attendings, residents, and admin. Good luck. I definitely agree it's an up-hill battle, but I hope you can pull it off. Thanks for your service!

SunsFun · Jul 19, 2013

beBrave said:
OP sounds like someone sitting at the back of the class for half of the semester and then playing catch up when they have failed the mid-term and quizzes. Now consider this, what has OP been doing the last couple years? Maybe I overlooked it however I don't see anything about him working in patient care, volunteering, remaining active in the Medical field or showing any signs that he has done some soul searching and made effort to correct the behavior that ultimately caused him to be dismissed from medical school. If your passion is Medicine, you don't simply walk away from it for a couple of years (doing nothing in between) and then come back and say, "can I have another try".

As others have pointed out you make too many assumptions about him that are in no way certain based on what he posted here.

Personally, I feel very sorry for him even though I can't imagine how horrible it must be to get cut when you did your best to improve.

I hope you don't mean to be but I really don't understand why you're being so negative to him. This is not pre-allo. We are all trying to help each other out and if you're going to criticize OP, be at least in some way constructive with your responses.

beBrave · Jul 19, 2013

SunsFun said:
As others have pointed out you make too many assumptions about him that are in no way certain based on what he posted here.

Personally, I feel very sorry for him even though I can't imagine how horrible it must be to get cut when you did your best to improve.

I hope you don't mean to be but I really don't understand why you're being so negative to him. This is not pre-allo. We are all trying to help each other out and if you're going to criticize OP, be at least in some way constructive with your responses.

It's not negativity, it's having a sense of responsibility and taking ownership of your actions.

TriagePreMed · Jul 19, 2013

beBrave said:
It's not negativity, it's having a sense of responsibility and taking ownership of your actions.

Honestly, I think you've made a lot of assumptions too. I don't think OP comes off as thinking about himself only. I do think, however, that there is more to this story. I don't mean necessarily did something illegal or harmed someone or acted completely unprofessional, but I don't think being a little bit quiet is going to make that many people in his school have no faith in him. The OP would have had to do a terrible job at what he was supposed to do for him to get kicked out.

Law2Doc · Jul 19, 2013

TriagePreMed said:
Honestly, I think you've made a lot of assumptions too. I don't think OP comes off as thinking about himself only. I do think, however, that there is more to this story. I don't mean necessarily did something illegal or harmed someone or acted completely unprofessional, but I don't think being a little bit quiet is going to make that many people in his school have no faith in him. The OP would have had to do a terrible job at what he was supposed to do for him to get kicked out.

Agreed -- there's more to this story, whether OP acknowledges it or not. A percentage of most med school classes are shy/quiet and they don't get thrown out. They might get penalized in grades for that passivity, but they usually graduate. It's hard to have "17" attendings adamant that you need to be kicked out. Most of the time you make no lasting impression at all if you are quiet.

Goro · Jul 19, 2013

wow, so basically, you didn't "get" Medicine. That's pretty rare. Well, time to do some else. Good luck. And thank you for serving your country.

BouncingBack said:
Well, it is very difficult to explan. It was a combination of things. I never hurt or injured patients or did something that residents or attendings did not want me to do. I also never did anything very unprofessional, illegal or illicit. At the end, most of my evaluations pointed out that I had trouble with oral case presentations, could not put all the information together and come up with differential diagnosis, was too quiet and aloof, was not actively involved with other team members, and did not seem like he understood why certain procedures were performed, etc. I was presented in front of a committee and had to plea for my case. They voted to boot me out. I appealed but they did not change their mind.

You don't have to believe me. That is what is written in evaluations. Three faculty members I got to know there (one is an IM attending and the other is a Ped attending) are still willing to write me strong letters of recommendation. Plus, the student dean said he would write me a supportive letter.

Of course, if killed or harmed a patient, did not show up to work on time or at all, did drugs or had alcohol problems, sexually assualted or harassed someone, was constantly in bad relationships with hospital staff and so on, I probably would have less chance to get back in. I have enough common sense to know that...

Patassa · Jul 19, 2013

beBrave said:
Finally you show your true colors. You could care less about patients. Its all about "me, me, me, me, me". Why would it matter if you were in the Military? Americans not caring about soldiers and you not caring about patients, I don't see the correlation. You feel thankful that you wasted over $100,000 that could have helped someone else. Troll!

😱 His true colors are that he's been serving in the military and that somehow means he doesn't care about people? I don't see THAT correlation. Turn down the rhetoric a few notches.

BouncingBack · Jul 19, 2013

I spoke to numerous DO schools. It looks like if I do well on the MCAT and get solid letters of rec from some former faculty members, I will have a decent shot of getting in. Well, if I were that horrible , I wouldn't have gotten decent grades in Med and Ped. Yeah, I struggled early on and in few other rotations, but I did get better. I am confident I will get through it the next time around, if I do decide to give this one more shot...

NuttyEngDude · Jul 19, 2013

If it's what you truly want then you owe it to yourself to at least try. if you're suspect, then the adcom will see it. if the answer is "no" then it's "no." But I don't think you will get more "good" info since your case seems so unique. Good luck!

DrMidlife · Jul 19, 2013

I challenge you to consider other options than "getting through" rotations if there is a next time.

I challenge you to consider not sucking at clinical practice, for the sake of your future patients next time.

I challenge you to consider that not killing a patient or egregiously violating ethical standards is not the bar to get over during 3rd year.

I challenge you to consider that your attendings may actually have known what they were doing and were not treating you like a number or a lab rat.

I challenge you to consider that when an evaluator chooses to give negative feedback, that means there was worry and struggle and effort on your behalf to provide useful information to help you become good at your job.

I challenge you to consider that when you receive an abundance of negative feedback on early clinical rotations that your subsequent performance is not going to overcome a sense of "this person needs to never be responsible for patients" that you may have given your superiors, who are legally liable for assessing your competence.

I challenge you to consider that you've said nothing in your posts above about being concerned about your competence, nor have you said anything above about how 3rd year rotations may have something to do with training you to be a competent doctor.

I challenge you to consider that the military investment of at least $100k in your medical career resulted in the absence of a doctor to serve active duty soldiers or veterans.

I challenge you to consider that another fresh MD, who now has $250k in med school debt, did not get your HPSP scholarship, and is now not serving active duty soldiers or veterans.

I challenge you to consider that the $20k bonus you got, when you signed for HPSP, is not what regular officers get when they are commissioned.

I challenge you to consider that you are not done paying the piper.

Thank you for your service.

roundza · Jul 19, 2013

DrMidlife said:
I challenge you to consider other options than "getting through" rotations if there is a next time.

I challenge you to consider not sucking at clinical practice, for the sake of your future patients next time.

I challenge you to consider that not killing a patient or egregiously violating ethical standards is not the bar to get over during 3rd year.

I challenge you to consider that your attendings may actually have known what they were doing and were not treating you like a number or a lab rat.

I challenge you to consider that when an evaluator chooses to give negative feedback, that means there was worry and struggle and effort on your behalf to provide useful information to help you become good at your job.

I challenge you to consider that when you receive an abundance of negative feedback on early clinical rotations that your subsequent performance is not going to overcome a sense of "this person needs to never be responsible for patients" that you may have given your superiors, who are legally liable for assessing your competence.

I challenge you to consider that you've said nothing in your posts above about being concerned about your competence, nor have you said anything above about how 3rd year rotations may have something to do with training you to be a competent doctor.

I challenge you to consider that the military investment of at least $100k in your medical career resulted in the absence of a doctor to serve active duty soldiers or veterans.

I challenge you to consider that another fresh MD, who now has $250k in med school debt, did not get your HPSP scholarship, and is now not serving active duty soldiers or veterans.

I challenge you to consider that the $20k bonus you got, when you signed for HPSP, is not what regular officers get when they are commissioned.

I challenge you to consider that you are not done paying the piper.

Thank you for your service.

wow. just, thoroughly. wow.

I think this brings up some good points. We've all got to open up and see the bigger picture. I can't speak for anybody else's experience, but if you truly believe you can help others, and that being a doctor is how you need to do this, I still think you need to give it another shot. Whether or not you are suited for the profession is not for me or you or anybody on this thread to determine. It is, however, the responsibility of your school to judge you and act accordingly.

LiveLoveLearn · Jul 19, 2013

roundza said:
wow. just, thoroughly. wow.

I think this brings up some good points. We've all got to open up and see the bigger picture. I can't speak for anybody else's experience, but if you truly believe you can help others, and that being a doctor is how you need to do this, I still think you need to give it another shot. Whether or not you are suited for the profession is not for me or you or anybody on this thread to determine. It is, however, the responsibility of your school to judge you and act accordingly.

Agreed that if this is what OP is truly passionate about, and now feels driven to do it, and do it well, they should give it another shot.

That being said, I also 100% agree with DrMidLife that in order to really do this, OP needs to have really considered, understood and truly taken responsibility for their own actions and mistakes, and then taken serious stops to remedy the root cause of those actions and mistakes. That is the piece that I see lacking in all of the posts I have seen, is the OP taking ownership of his/her own situation. OP seems to keep describing the situation as though it was something done to them, and seems somewhat aloof about it. Maybe the sincere acknowledgement of the gravity of the situation and ownership of it is just not translating well via an on-line forum, but to me it just doesn't seem to be there.

As far as where to apply to, I would take the advice of folks that are further along in this journey (attendings, ADCOMs, adminstrative, residents and med students that help with admissions), as I doubt that most others know enough about individual school admissions to offer anything more than what the OP already knows.

theseeker4 · Jul 19, 2013

DrMidlife said:
I challenge you to consider other options than "getting through" rotations if there is a next time.

I challenge you to consider not sucking at clinical practice, for the sake of your future patients next time.

I challenge you to consider that not killing a patient or egregiously violating ethical standards is not the bar to get over during 3rd year.

I challenge you to consider that your attendings may actually have known what they were doing and were not treating you like a number or a lab rat.

I challenge you to consider that when an evaluator chooses to give negative feedback, that means there was worry and struggle and effort on your behalf to provide useful information to help you become good at your job.

I challenge you to consider that when you receive an abundance of negative feedback on early clinical rotations that your subsequent performance is not going to overcome a sense of "this person needs to never be responsible for patients" that you may have given your superiors, who are legally liable for assessing your competence.

I challenge you to consider that you've said nothing in your posts above about being concerned about your competence, nor have you said anything above about how 3rd year rotations may have something to do with training you to be a competent doctor.

I challenge you to consider that the military investment of at least $100k in your medical career resulted in the absence of a doctor to serve active duty soldiers or veterans.

I challenge you to consider that another fresh MD, who now has $250k in med school debt, did not get your HPSP scholarship, and is now not serving active duty soldiers or veterans.

I challenge you to consider that the $20k bonus you got, when you signed for HPSP, is not what regular officers get when they are commissioned.

I challenge you to consider that you are not done paying the piper.

Thank you for your service.

Well said. Agree 100%.

thefritz · Jul 19, 2013

BouncingBack said:
At the end, most of my evaluations pointed out that I had trouble with oral case presentations, could not put all the information together and come up with differential diagnosis, was too quiet and aloof, was not actively involved with other team members, and did not seem like he understood why certain procedures were performed, etc.

Did you complete all of third year and you were not allowed to advance? Did you fail shelf exams? I'm guessing you failed individual clerkships and that got you sent to the academic advancement committee, and I'm guessing you had more than one failure (or all failures), and they kicked you out. It's very unusual they didn't let you remediate or work with you in some way.

Was your failure due to shelf exams or clinical evaluations?
If clinical evaluations, do you have Asperger's or something? You would have to have an extreme communication and social interaction deficit to actually get kicked out of med school. Can you give us an example of how bad your oral presentations were? Were you unable to do basic stuff like come up with a differential for a runny nose and fever?

I am still not understanding how you got kicked out of a US MD school for being aloof and socially awkward without doing something egregious.

thefritz · Jul 19, 2013

beBrave said:
rather it sounds like they don't care. OP sounds like someone just going through the motions with a hands off approach.

Still, I was the epitome of not caring, and I never had problems. The only time I ever had problems was when I actually did care and spoke up or tried to do something. I quickly learned that by hiding in the shadows and knowing my place and not causing people trouble, I would scoot on by to the next rotation.

I find it totally unbelieveable someone would be kicked out for "just going through the motions." IMO this is how you AVOID problems. What school was this at?

thefritz · Jul 19, 2013

beBrave said:
If your passion is Medicine, you don't simply walk away from it for a couple of years (doing nothing in between) and then come back and say, "can I have another try".

When you have adult responsibilities (i.e., you parents aren't bankrolling you anymore), you do. A lot of schools either refuse to acknowledge the fact that people have to making a living or don't value it because most students come from successful families. But it doesn't mean that he doesn't want to be a doctor.

thefritz · Jul 19, 2013

beBrave said:
Finally you show your true colors. You could care less about patients. Its all about "me, me, me, me, me". Why would it matter if you were in the Military? Americans not caring about soldiers and you not caring about patients, I don't see the correlation. You feel thankful that you wasted over $100,000 that could have helped someone else. Troll!

Maybe I should have read through all of the posts before responding. You are using very arrogant and presumptuous speech in your posts for someone who hasn't completed a day of medical school. He's paying back that money (and more) with his service, and was entitled to it just as much as anyone else. You don't know what being a junior medical student is until you are one, and if you think you're going to breeze through medical school without encountering personal, academic, or financial problems along the way that threaten to ruin everything, you've in for rough times.

beBrave · Jul 19, 2013

You could have fit all responses into just one post.

thefritz said:
Still, I was the epitome of not caring, and I never had problems. The only time I ever had problems was when I actually did care and spoke up or tried to do something. I quickly learned that by hiding in the shadows and knowing my place and not causing people trouble, I would scoot on by to the next rotation.

I find it totally unbelievable someone would be kicked out for "just going through the motions." IMO this is how you AVOID problems. What school was this at?

Hmm, I wonder if this is true for everyone.

thefritz said:
. A lot of schools either refuse to acknowledge the fact that people have to making a living or don't value it because most students come from successful families.

Weird. Most Pre-Med and Med school students I know and grew up with came from families that had their share of struggles. A good friends parents both died of AIDS (his grandmother took out a second mortgage on her house to get him into Med school; he has a wife, kids and a mortgage of his own). One of my study group classmates served in the Military, strives to be a Physician and has a family to support; I have yet to meet a privileged Pre-Med or Med student. Maybe the people I have met are in the underprivileged minority.

thefritz said:
Maybe I should have read through all of the posts before responding. You are using very arrogant and presumptuous speech in your posts for someone who hasn't completed a day of medical school. He's paying back that money (and more) with his service, and was entitled to it just as much as anyone else. You don't know what being a junior medical student is until you are one, and if you think you're going to breeze through medical school without encountering personal, academic, or financial problems along the way that threaten to ruin everything, you've in for rough times.

I am certain that I will encounter, personal, academic and financial issues however I will own each one of them. As LiveLoveLearn pointed out:

LiveLoveLearn said:
OP needs to have really considered, understood and truly taken responsibility for their own actions and mistakes, and then taken serious stops to remedy the root cause of those actions and mistakes. That is the piece that I see lacking in all of the posts I have seen, is the OP taking ownership of his/her own situation. OP seems to keep describing the situation as though it was something done to them, and seems somewhat aloof about it. Maybe the sincere acknowledgement of the gravity of the situation and ownership of it is just not translating well via an on-line forum, but to me it just doesn't seem to be there.

I doubt Medical schools will allow a person to be less accountable for their actions. There hasn't been a draft in a long time. OP chose to serve; Americans value his contribution but it is irrelevant to his performance during Clinical rotations. I don't see anything regarding mental or emotional disorders caused by his time in the Military. A scholarship isn't just free money; $100,000+ was squandered. OP talks about returning to school and is thankful that there is money left on the GI Bill. That is money that our tax dollars pay for; it is a privilege given to OP in good faith and not a right. OP had his chance. Three in support of him versus Seventeen against; you don't have to be in Medical school to have common sense.

QofQuimica · Jul 19, 2013

SunsFun said:
As a premed reading it, what you wrote here sound very discouraging. How often does this happen? I cannot fathom being kicked out from med school in a third year just because I was not that good at something initially.

Extremely uncommon. I don't know of anyone that has happened to, either at my med school or at the med school affiliated with the hospital where I'm doing residency. I'm sure it happens to people here and there, but once you pass Step 1 and start clerkships, you will almost certainly graduate.

BouncingBack said:
I can tell you this. The eval system is very subjective. If you can develop good relationships and connections with others, esp your residents and attendings, they will give you good evals and grades, regardless how you perform, as long as it is reasonable. However, I was one of those quiet guys that only spoke when asked - never initiated much or connected well with others. Well, I learned my lesson, and in the future, I know what I need to do.

What you are describing is the kind of student I would basically benignly neglect because they seem disinterested. I'd give someone like that a pass (versus an honors or high pass), not fail them. A disinterested student would have to do something pretty egregious to fail a med student clerkship. Like, not show up all month. At all.

Law2Doc said:
Typically the best chance at getting back to a US med school is to plead your case to the place you were dismissed from. They know the actual circumstances and have some general interest in seeing the people they accept turn into doctors. No other program, MD or DO are going to want to touch you. Your grades, mcat, step score are irrelevant -- the dismissal from a US med school is the only data point they will focus on. You have to realize that there are an enormous number of people vying for every spot, most without serious blemishes, so someone with a big red flag isn't going to get much consideration. If your home school won't take you back, nobody else will -- you may need to look offshore -- your odds of getting in at another US program are lousy.

Agree with this. If the prior school won't take you back, odds are even worse for having another school take you.

Law2Doc said:
Agreed -- there's more to this story, whether OP acknowledges it or not. A percentage of most med school classes are shy/quiet and they don't get thrown out. They might get penalized in grades for that passivity, but they usually graduate. It's hard to have "17" attendings adamant that you need to be kicked out. Most of the time you make no lasting impression at all if you are quiet.

Exactly. Again, they'd probably end up graduating with a string of "passes" (which, for the premed readers, is basically like being a straight C student), but they would graduate.

Silent Cool · Jul 19, 2013

DrMidlife said:
I challenge you to consider other options than "getting through" rotations if there is a next time.

I challenge you to consider not sucking at clinical practice, for the sake of your future patients next time.

I challenge you to consider that not killing a patient or egregiously violating ethical standards is not the bar to get over during 3rd year.

I challenge you to consider that your attendings may actually have known what they were doing and were not treating you like a number or a lab rat.

I challenge you to consider that when an evaluator chooses to give negative feedback, that means there was worry and struggle and effort on your behalf to provide useful information to help you become good at your job.

I challenge you to consider that when you receive an abundance of negative feedback on early clinical rotations that your subsequent performance is not going to overcome a sense of "this person needs to never be responsible for patients" that you may have given your superiors, who are legally liable for assessing your competence.

I challenge you to consider that you've said nothing in your posts above about being concerned about your competence, nor have you said anything above about how 3rd year rotations may have something to do with training you to be a competent doctor.

I challenge you to consider that the military investment of at least $100k in your medical career resulted in the absence of a doctor to serve active duty soldiers or veterans.

I challenge you to consider that another fresh MD, who now has $250k in med school debt, did not get your HPSP scholarship, and is now not serving active duty soldiers or veterans.

I challenge you to consider that the $20k bonus you got, when you signed for HPSP, is not what regular officers get when they are commissioned.

I challenge you to consider that you are not done paying the piper.

Thank you for your service.

No thread is complete without the obligatory, holier-than-thou comments from DrMidlife.

yossarian444 · Jul 20, 2013

DrMidlife said:
I challenge you to consider other options than "getting through" rotations if there is a next time.

I challenge you to consider not sucking at clinical practice, for the sake of your future patients next time.

I challenge you to consider that not killing a patient or egregiously violating ethical standards is not the bar to get over during 3rd year.

I challenge you to consider that your attendings may actually have known what they were doing and were not treating you like a number or a lab rat.

I challenge you to consider that when an evaluator chooses to give negative feedback, that means there was worry and struggle and effort on your behalf to provide useful information to help you become good at your job.

I challenge you to consider that when you receive an abundance of negative feedback on early clinical rotations that your subsequent performance is not going to overcome a sense of "this person needs to never be responsible for patients" that you may have given your superiors, who are legally liable for assessing your competence.

I challenge you to consider that you've said nothing in your posts above about being concerned about your competence, nor have you said anything above about how 3rd year rotations may have something to do with training you to be a competent doctor.

I challenge you to consider that the military investment of at least $100k in your medical career resulted in the absence of a doctor to serve active duty soldiers or veterans.

I challenge you to consider that another fresh MD, who now has $250k in med school debt, did not get your HPSP scholarship, and is now not serving active duty soldiers or veterans.

I challenge you to consider that the $20k bonus you got, when you signed for HPSP, is not what regular officers get when they are commissioned.

I challenge you to consider that you are not done paying the piper.

Thank you for your service.

How many rotations have you done as a 3rd or 4th year medical student? Don't be so harsh until you've lived it. Prepare to be shocked more tha once regarding which students honor a rotation and which students merely pass.

While there clearly is probably more to the story than the OP admits to or is aware of, who knows, maybe it's not as extreme as you seem to think. There is a lot of BS that goes on 3rd and 4th year and a lot of your sucess hinges on how well you play a game rather than any real measurement of compentency. In the history of medical education, there probably have been more than a few that have been completely screwed over by being kicked out of school or fired in residency over nothing more than pissing off the wrong person.

I'm a little puzzled as to what it takes to get dismissed during 3rd year. I knew a lot of people in medical school who did as little as possible 3rd year and still passed everything with boring and generic but not overtly negative comments and they matched sucessfully. I even knew a couple people who screwed everything up on rotations and got terrible evals on almost every rotation. Yeah, neither of them matched, but both at least graduated medical school.

Gfliptastic · Jul 20, 2013

QofQuimica said:
What you are describing is the kind of student I would basically benignly neglect because they seem disinterested. I'd give someone like that a pass (versus an honors or high pass), not fail them. A disinterested student would have to do something pretty egregious to fail a med student clerkship. Like, not show up all month. At all.

^^^
THIS!!!

I had my OB attending gripe about some of his previous med students, since he liked me so much. And all he said was, "If they didn't want to go to deliveries, weren't interested, I just didn't call them. I gave those opportunities to the better students and gave the disinterested students a Pass just to get them out of my hair."

I've had IM attendings confide that shy/quiet students w/ less than personable communication skills "will hopefully do radiology or pathology". And there is kind of a place for every competent person in medicine, cuz there are specialties for out-going and shy people.

There is grade inflation and deflation based on your relationship w/ the eval writer, I don't deny that, however, it seems that the "minimum" is set just to pass students. It really can't be all that you say about failing clinicals. 😕

ToldYouSo · Jul 20, 2013

beBrave said:
As a Pre-Med...

Do you preface all of you're conversations with this?

One More Try? A former med student

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Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....

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