LGBT students: are you out on your applications?

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staygoldponyboy

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So, this issue has been discussed a little bit on past forums, but since many of us are writing secondaries and often confronted with questions regarding conflicts and diversity, I'd like to pose the question again: are you "out" on your applications?

As an out lesbian, I am conflicted about disclosing this on my application. While it is a significant part of who I am, it does not define my identity, as a healthcare provider or as a person as a whole (most don't know until I explicitly tell them), nor do I need to discuss it in order to fulfill any sort of "diversity" quotient. However, some schools' secondaries specifically ask about sexual identity/orientation when they ask about challenges and diversity (Stanford) and others make it a point to recruit LGBT students (Yale).

If I were to talk about it, I think I would talk about it in terms of how my coming out process really helped me in understanding others' perspectives that are fundamentally different from my own and made me a better communicator when discussing tough issues, something I think I would definitely extend to how I interact with colleagues and patients, no matter what the topic is. I genuinely feel that going through that made me a more aware and compassionate person. In that sense, my coming out process and my identity as queer is important to me.

However, I am also sensitive to what some may feel as inappropriate or unprofessional, even though that is not necessarily my opinion. I didn't discuss it in my primary, so I can choose which schools, if any, I choose to discuss it with.

Thoughts? If anyone feels more comfortable having this conversation privately, don't hesitate to PM me.
 
Even as someone who is very out in real life, I did not discuss it anywhere in my application. While there were certainly places I probably could have included it, I don't feel it has significantly altered my life enough to be essay worthy. Have I faced bigotry? Sure. I just felt some of my other life experiences were better suited, but I can see why others' experiences with sexual orientation can be relevant.
 
You have no more reason to disclose your sexuality on a medical school application than a heterosexual individual does. Nobody cares.

Now, if you were involved in some sort of organization/activism, then you should talk about that.
 
radon xp said:
you have no more reason to disclose your sexuality on a medical school application than a heterosexual individual does. Nobody cares.

Now, if you were involved in some sort of organization/activism, then you should talk about that.
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+1
 
Radon XP said:
You have no more reason to disclose your sexuality on a medical school application than a heterosexual individual does. Nobody cares.

Now, if you were involved in some sort of organization/activism, then you should talk about that.
Click to expand...
I strongly disagree with this. It's clearly coming from a point of view of someone of a ORM. Being gay absolutely sets you apart. You can empathize with a range of people who experience discrimination because you live in country that openly and legally discriminates against you.

I'm probably much older then the OP, but I wrote about it because being gay when I was in high school was very different. I was openly harassed by a teacher, during class. I discussed the impact growing up in such an atmosphere has had on who I've become as a person and how I treat others as a result.
 
pm647 said:
I strongly disagree with this. It's clearly coming from a point of view of someone of a ORM. Being gay absolutely sets you apart. You can empathize with a range of people who experience discrimination because you live in country that openly and legally discriminates against you.

I'm probably much older then the OP, but I wrote about it because being gay when I was in high school was very different. I was openly harassed by a teacher, during class. I discussed the impact growing up in such an atmosphere has had on who I've become as a person and how I treat others as a result.
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If the OP was discriminated against in any significant manner which contributed to character development, then fine. Otherwise, I don't think you're quite as unique/special as you may think you are. Don't mean to sound harsh. But talking about your sexuality on a professional application does not, to me, sound necessary or appropriate unless, of course, as you mentioned, you were involved in activism/it profoundly affected you
 
Radon XP said:
If the OP was discriminated against in any significant manner which contributed to character development, then fine. Otherwise, I don't think you're quite as unique/special as you may think you are. Don't mean to sound harsh. But talking about your sexuality on a professional application does not, to me, sound necessary or appropriate unless, of course, as you mentioned, you were involved in activism/it profoundly affected you
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It doesn't sound harsh . . Just sounds like it's coming from someone that is slightly naive to way that LGBTQ people are treated.

When you walk down to street do you worry about holding hands with the person you're dating? Can you legally marry? Can you adopt kids in every state? If the person you love dies, do their relatives get everything and you can get kept from the funeral? Do you get to listen to people on tv call you an animal or disgusting or sinful all the time, while everyone sits by and allows it as acceptable debate conversation?

So I have to say YES. Being gay does in fact make you unique. Living everyday and having to deal with intolerance and ignorance makes you a stronger person. You don't have to go through some traumatic experience it's inherent in living in such a culture. Many studies have been done which show that unless you are of a minority, you can NEVER fully relate to what it means to be discriminated against.
 
pm647 said:
It doesn't sound harsh . . Just sounds like it's coming from someone that is slightly naive to way that LGBTQ people are treated.

When you walk down to street do you worry about holding hands with the person you're dating? Can you legally marry? Can you adopt kids in every state? If the person you love dies, do their relatives get everything and you can get kept from the funeral? Do you get to listen to people on tv call you an animal or disgusting or sinful all the time, while everyone sits by and allows it as acceptable debate conversation?

So I have to say YES. Being gay does in fact make you unique. Living everyday and having to deal with intolerance and ignorance makes you a stronger person. You don't have to go through some traumatic experience it's inherent in living in such a culture. Many studies have been done which show that unless you are of a minority, you can NEVER fully relate to what it means to be discriminated against.
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You don't have to be homosexual to be in a minority, though, which means that many of the same people that are discriminating against you may have experienced discrimination. I'm just saying you aren't unique.
 
I think it's a matter of personal preference. As OP pointed out, some schools explicitly mention sexual orientation as an aspect of diversity (i.e., Stanford). I don't see how it's any different than checking off the URM box if you're African American, Hispanic, Native American, SES disadvantaged, etc.

That said, I only "outed" myself if a secondary explicitly asked to talk about sexual orientation. And it was an after thought, if that...only one of many factors that make up my identity.

Be smart. If you're applying to a school like Loma Linda, Creighton, or any other religiously-affiliated school, don't mention it. Otherwise, any school on the East and West Coasts should be fine.
 
pm647 said:
I'm probably much older then the OP, but I wrote about it because being gay when I was in high school was very different. I was openly harassed by a teacher, during class. I discussed the impact growing up in such an atmosphere has had on who I've become as a person and how I treat others as a result.
Click to expand...

Wow pm, thanks for sharing. I've been extremely fortunate to have come out in a very accepting environment in a major metropolitan area and haven't faced as much open bigotry like that, but I do feel that I have a greater sense of empathy for others after having gone through what I went through during my coming out process.

I really appreciate everyone's input so far. I knew a couple guys who went through the application cycle last year as out gay males and had successful cycles - if anyone else has any input, I'd love to hear it.
 
I agree with Radon XP.
Imo, I get the vibe as if you almost wanna exploit your sexuality to give yourself a leg up.
 
Meh.

Some use race, others use the first generation thing, and then there are some who use legacy.

Whatever sets you apart and gets you in....there's nothing wrong with it. Why should there be different standards on how to distinguish yourself?
 
QrtrLifeCrisis said:
I think it's a matter of personal preference. As OP pointed out, some schools explicitly mention sexual orientation as an aspect of diversity (i.e., Stanford). I don't see how it's any different than checking off the URM box if you're African American, Hispanic, Native American, SES disadvantaged, etc.

That said, I only "outed" myself if a secondary explicitly asked to talk about sexual orientation. And it was an after thought, if that...only one of many factors that make up my identity.

Be smart. If you're applying to a school like Loma Linda, Creighton, or any other religiously-affiliated school, don't mention it. Otherwise, any school on the East and West Coasts should be fine.
Click to expand...

Thank you - I'm heavily leaning towards this approach. I'm definitely wary of feeling like I'm exploiting it, but I also feel like some of what I learned while coming out will hopefully make me a better physician - for everyone, not just LGBTQ patients.
 
csx said:
I agree with Radon XP.
Imo, I get the vibe as if you almost wanna exploit your sexuality to give yourself a leg up.
Click to expand...

👍

This is what I'm getting at exactly.

To be fair, people exploit things all the time to get a leg up, whether it be race, SES, family deaths, etc. I guess it's just part of the game.
 
Don't really see what it has to do with a medical school application. I wouldn't put that I'm straight on my app.
 
It sounds like it gave you some valuable perspective, so it could make sense to include it where it makes sense, but it might not be a good centerpiece for an essay if it didn't have a big impact. But generally schools will not have a problem with it - and if any do, it's probably just as well that you didn't get in there anyway. I was out on my app, but coming out resulted in my life being derailed for a few years and I can't really explain how I got where I am without it.

I would also like to mention that similar threads have been posted on SDN before and I made a post aggregating some of them that you might find helpful, which is in my signature below.
 
I didn't put the fact that I'm gay on my primary, and I've been very selective about which schools to "out" myself to.

However, for those schools that look for gay applicants, I've tied it in to my working for a year at an HIV clinic and outreach center, talked a little about what it was like growing up in the middle east being gay, but mainly shown my personal growth as well as advocacy of the LGBT community. I highly recommend you don't answer a secondary prompt asking how you contribute diversity by saying "I'm gay!", but it does give you a completely different perspective on life as well as different experiences, so show what you've learned and that could be a leg up on your app.

Also, pay no attention to the people saying "I wouldn't put that I'm straight on my app". It's your standard white-bread jealous that they have no real fodder for a diversity essay 😎
 
Radon XP said:
👍

This is what I'm getting at exactly.

To be fair, people exploit things all the time to get a leg up, whether it be race, SES, family deaths, etc. I guess it's just part of the game.
Click to expand...

Valid point. However, obviously very unethical... what's to stop a person from just saying they're of a different sexual orientation? That's something that's much harder to disprove imo than some of the things you listed above.
 
You have no more reason to disclose your sexuality on a medical school application than a heterosexual individual does.
7l.jpg
 
It doesn't matter what the people on this forum think should or shouldn't be disclosed--what matters is what med schools think. Like some people have said certain secondaries explicitly include sexual orientation in their diversity essays and some schools even list LGBT under what they individually consider URM (different from AAMC). For those schools, why wouldn't you talk about it unless you have absolutely nothing to say? I talked about it in my diversity essays. I was out on 2/3 schools I was immediately accepted to.
 
csx said:
Valid point. However, obviously very unethical... what's to stop a person from just saying they're of a different sexual orientation? That's something that's much harder to disprove imo than some of the things you listed above.
Click to expand...

You could say that of a lot of things. Schools don't call around to get verification of every time an applicant's family member had cancer, so really anyone's family illness story could be fabricated. Most patient anecdotes could be made up as long as the medical EC shows up on your activities list. Lying is obviously unethical, but talking about a real life experience is not. I'm not really seeing a reason for everyone assuming ill intentions here.
 
Im very out irl but havent included that fact in any application s. I havent experienced any serious discrimination since high school and id like leave that in the past.

However I cud see how it would b a good thing to mention in a diversity essay at a gay friendly school.

Also ignore the "I wouldn't put that I was straight" nonsense. Obviously ppl are ignorant.
 
whatever5 said:
Also, pay no attention to the people saying "I wouldn't put that I'm straight on my app". It's your standard white-bread jealous that they have no real fodder for a diversity essay 😎
Click to expand...

👍

Nicely said.
 
While I'm not even close to applying, I plan on incorporating my experiences with LGBT-related organizations into my activities, but whether or not I use my orientation as a frame for a diversity essay is a different matter. I think experiences are really too variable from one person to the next to make a blanket statement saying that people are just trying to commodify their uniqueness, although I do understand that view point. On paper, living as an openly gay guy in small town Alabama would probably lead someone to assume that I've led a difficult life, but in reality, it hasn't been so bad. On the other hand, I think my being gay has piqued my sensitivity towards those who are, for whatever reason, marginalized, which is the point of this campaign for diversity, isn't it? Everyone faces different struggles; there's no need to dismiss someone else's. 🙂
 
Ellie Arroway said:
You could say that of a lot of things. Schools don't call around to get verification of every time an applicant's family member had cancer, so really anyone's family illness story could be fabricated. Most patient anecdotes could be made up as long as the medical EC shows up on your activities list. Lying is obviously unethical, but talking about a real life experience is not. I'm not really seeing a reason for everyone assuming ill intentions here.
Click to expand...

its easier imo to note your sexuality and possibly get a leg up for it than to blatantly lie about a family member having cancer- that would require a story to tell and to evoke emotions which are hard to fake. This is also something you'd have to bring up, such as in your PS- in which case an adcom may ask you about in during an interview.

An adcom however wouldn't wanna delve into sucha touchy subject by asking a person about their sexuality if they don't bring it up in their PS or a secondary but rather only checked off their orientation.

sorry if that didnt make any sense at all...super tired
 
I see no reason why not to include an anecdote, story, etc. about confronting adversity related to your sexual orientation, if you feel strongly about it. It is part of who you are, after all.

To those who are saying OP has no more reason to mention it than if OP was hetero, I highly recommend you consider your answer to the following hypothetical: "Imagine there is a URM student whose application is functionally identical to yours (Scores, ECs, Good Rec Letters, etc.). Why should we admit you?"

I know this is way too outrageously forward to ever come up (or at least I imagine it to be), but it is worth considering. You should be able to come up with an answer that is strong, and does not belittle or devalue the struggles the URM student may have faced (like some of the dismissive comments in this thread did).
 
It isn't inappropriate nor unprofessional to bring up sexual orientation in a topic about diversity, a factor that has had an effect on your personal growth, challenges in your life, etc. Being LGBT is a minority, and is something that some have little to no exposure to in terms of discussing sensitive issues. Being able to understand different perspectives to deliver great care would be seen as a great asset. Talking about your coming out process and how it affected you isn't something to be afraid to discuss.

At times, LGBT patients may be discouraged or afraid to disclose information for fear of judgment, and having physicians(of all sexual orientations) who are able to bring down those barriers would benefit these patients.
 
kanzeon said:
It doesn't matter what the people on this forum think should or shouldn't be disclosed--what matters is what med schools think. Like some people have said certain secondaries explicitly include sexual orientation in their diversity essays and some schools even list LGBT under what they individually consider URM (different from AAMC). For those schools, why wouldn't you talk about it unless you have absolutely nothing to say? I talked about it in my diversity essays. I was out on 2/3 schools I was immediately accepted to.
Click to expand...

What schools consider LGBT as URM?
 
KnuxNole said:
It isn't inappropriate nor unprofessional to bring up sexual orientation in a topic about diversity, a factor that has had an effect on your personal growth, challenges in your life, etc. Being LGBT is a minority, and is something that some have little to no exposure to in terms of discussing sensitive issues. Being able to understand different perspectives to deliver great care would be seen as a great asset. Talking about your coming out process and how it affected you isn't something to be afraid to discuss.

At times, LGBT patients may be discouraged or afraid to disclose information for fear of judgment, and having physicians(of all sexual orientations) who are able to bring down those barriers would benefit these patients.
Click to expand...

I understand this. This is valid. However, if one were check off that they were LGBT but were to disclose say their family member being diagnosed as their biggest influence and to talk about that; that would be unfair if they got a leg up imo as they failed to mention being LGBT having an influence on their life. does this make more sense??
 
You are not applying for an escort job, so i guess it is not necessary. 🙂


edit: i am not really fan of this ethnic doctor suitable for ethnic patients, or lbgt doctor suitable for lbgt patients stuff. I think it is backwards mentality
 
Kahreek said:
You are not applying for an escort job, so i guess it is not necessary. 🙂


edit: i am not really fan of this ethnic doctor suitable for ethnic patients, or lbgt doctor suitable for lbgt patients stuff. I think it is backwards mentality
Click to expand...

Your privilege is showing
 
csx said:
I understand this. This is valid. However, if one were check off that they were LGBT but were to disclose say their family member being diagnosed as their biggest influence and to talk about that; that would be unfair if they got a leg up imo as they failed to mention being LGBT having an influence on their life. does this make more sense??
Click to expand...

You speak as if being gay and being straight are equivalent; I assure you they are not. Your attitude shows exactly why some LGBT patients prefer LGBT physicians. I want a physician who understands the specific issues I face, and not one I have to educate every step of the way.

I hope you'll learn from your future LGBT classmates that being LGBT has an influence on *all* parts of a person's life.
 
Kahreek said:
i think a lgbt doctor is suitable for me, just as any other competent doctor, and it would be nice if everyone thought this way.
I dont know know who you are to talk about privilege to someone you dont know.
Click to expand...

That's because you're straight, aka "the norm". You think any doctor is fine for you because they're all very well educated about how to treat heterosexuals. That isn't the case for LGBT patients. Just get it through your head that you don't know what it's like.
 
wait are you saying that i am wrong, because i would not mind about being treated by lgbt doctor.
But a lgbt is right because he doesnt want to be treated by a hetero.
I understand there are many hetero doctors who may segregate, but i hope when i become a doctor i can attend to my patients equally, and make them confortable whatever is the subject.
 
Do Something said:
You speak as if being gay and being straight are equivalent; I assure you they are not. Your attitude shows exactly why some LGBT patients prefer LGBT physicians. I want a physician who understands the specific issues I face, and not one I have to educate every step of the way.

I hope you'll learn from your future LGBT classmates that being LGBT has an influence on *all* parts of a person's life.
Click to expand...

I understand but you are misinterpreting what I am saying. What's to stop someone from checking off they are LGBT to gain an advantage then? They don't necessarily have to talk about it in their interviews or PS.
 
Um wow. I am incredibly offended on your behalf at some of these reponses. I dont think this is "exploiting" your identity and its terrible that someone suggested it was.
 
Notice how all of the people against it are straight and completely insensitive to LGBT. This alone should tell you taut it's a good idea to include this info.

There is a mod on this forum who disclosed his status on the question of why this school (the area is LGBT friendly) and was accepted to numerous schools.
 
csx said:
I understand but you are misinterpreting what I am saying. What's to stop someone from checking off they are LGBT to gain an advantage then? They don't necessarily have to talk about it in their interviews or PS.
Click to expand...

I assume that anything you mention anywhere in your app is fair game for an interviewer to bring up. If you say that you're gay and your interviewer asks how it has affected your life and you can't answer...well, you'd come off like a liar and I trust your application would be doomed.
 
csx said:
I understand but you are misinterpreting what I am saying. What's to stop someone from checking off they are LGBT to gain an advantage then? They don't necessarily have to talk about it in their interviews or PS.
Click to expand...

Nothing, just like checking off Native American or fluent in Spanish. That's why there is interview. Good interviewer will ask the right questions.
 
touchpause13 said:
What schools consider LGBT as URM?
Click to expand...

Well by some schools, I of course mean the one that I can think of off the top of my head. In Northwestern's definition of URM: "Feinberg defines the following groups as underrepresented in medicine: African American, Latino, Native American, Native Hawaiian, and students who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender or queer (LGBT)." I only know this because I researched that school a lot. To the OP I would suggest looking on the schools' websites and seeing exactly how they define URM to gauge.
 
I kind of feel opposite to what mostly everyone has been saying. I have been out on almost all of my secondaries so far. I spent a long and hard time thinking about whether or not I should talk about it, which in this day and age is depressing to even have to consider it.

My main reason for including being gay is that it has been something that has changed my outlook in life. I don't think you can be a part of the LGBTQ community and not have it affect some aspect of your life.

I would say go for it if you want. I like to think about it in this way, if the medical school or adcom is not going to pick me for being gay, than I did not want to go to that medical school in the first place. And yes, this is more important for me. I rather go to no school at all versus a school that doesn't want the entire me.
 
sc91 said:
I kind of feel opposite to what mostly everyone has been saying. I have been out on almost all of my secondaries so far. I spent a long and hard time thinking about whether or not I should talk about it, which in this day and age is depressing to even have to consider it.

My main reason for including being gay is that it has been something that has changed my outlook in life. I don't think you can be a part of the LGBTQ community and not have it affect some aspect of your life.

I would say go for it if you want. I like to think about it in this way, if the medical school or adcom is not going to pick me for being gay, than I did not want to go to that medical school in the first place. And yes, this is more important for me. I rather go to no school at all versus a school that doesn't want the entire me.
Click to expand...

That's not opposite to what many of us are saying. 🙂

Cheers.
 
^ yeah haha I focused on the negative ones too much. I just re-read the thread and realized that >_<.
 
I am out on any secondary with a diversity essay. I live in a state where I can be legally fired for being gay, so it would be nice to go somewhere with greater protection under the law. I am also engaged to my same sex partner, but we cannot be legally married here. I will also be out in interviews most likely, because she is a major part of my support system - which med schools will probably ask me about because I am a parent. I also only applied to AMCAS school that included sexual orientation and gender identity in their non-discrimination blurb on the MSAR. I think it is one sign that a school is more progressive - and the work I want to do as a physician depends on that.

Good luck, and yay queer docs!
 
csx said:
I understand but you are misinterpreting what I am saying. What's to stop someone from checking off they are LGBT to gain an advantage then? They don't necessarily have to talk about it in their interviews or PS.
Click to expand...

First, thank you everyone for your responses. This has been really helpful in giving me a lot more confidence in writing about my experiences on secondaries, when asked.

And csx, as it stands right now on AMCAS, you cannot simply "check off" that you are LGBTQ+. AMCAS defines URM as "Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population." So, in order for anyone identifying as queer to disclose that, we actually have to write about it in a meaningful way, not just check a box, get our "leg up" and move on. (I'm certainly not saying that other URM's do this! Just saying that indicating LBGT status is less straightforward)

Also, as a reference, it's been asked a couple times on this thread which schools explicitly mention sexual orientation/identity in their non-descrimination blurb on MSAR, on secondaries, etc. I've started doing some research as I begin to write secondaries and continue to pick which schools to apply to (my AMCAS hasn't been verified yet), so here's a start. Some I found through MSAR, some have parts of their websites that describe LGBT health and community initiatives.

Stanford, Yale, Northwestern, Oregon, Cornell, Vermont, Mt. Sinai, Medical College of Wisconsin, Dartmouth, Brown - if anyone (DR MOM?) has any to add, please do!
 
staygoldponyboy said:
first, thank you everyone for your responses. This has been really helpful in giving me a lot more confidence in writing about my experiences on secondaries, when asked.

And csx, as it stands right now on amcas, you cannot simply "check off" that you are lgbtq+. Amcas defines urm as "underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population." so, in order for anyone identifying as queer to disclose that, we actually have to write about it in a meaningful way, not just check a box, get our "leg up" and move on. (i'm certainly not saying that other urm's do this! Just saying that indicating lbgt status is less straightforward)

also, as a reference, it's been asked a couple times on this thread which schools explicitly mention sexual orientation/identity in their non-descrimination blurb on msar, on secondaries, etc. I've started doing some research as i begin to write secondaries and continue to pick which schools to apply to (my amcas hasn't been verified yet), so here's a start. Some i found through msar, some have parts of their websites that describe lgbt health and community initiatives.

Stanford, yale, northwestern, oregon, cornell, vermont, mt. Sinai, medical college of wisconsin, dartmouth, brown - if anyone (dr mom?) has any to add, please do!
Click to expand...

+ uva
 
This fear that White, Heterosexual, (mostly) Christian men have of losing their stranglehold on all forms of our society is truly palpable.

How paranoid do you have to be to think that someone would fake being LGBTQ on an application to gain admittance to medical school? Like really? If you couldn't outwardly show that you were a specific race (not true in all cases) I'm sure they would be screaming about people faking that they were Black or Latino.

This mindset that these young Libertarian kids have that this country is equal and there is no difference between living heterosexual and homosexual in this country or Black and White or any other contrast is so naive it makes my eyes cross.

They are so scared of being "discriminated" against that they forget about how long that their demographic has discriminated against everyone else. Scared of getting a taste of your own medicine? I really hope that most of these people get weeded out before I get to medical school or I may end up having issues with half of my cohort haha.
 
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