Another thought on Affirmative Action

You wont find a single nursing school in America that gives preference to men.

The people that spout off about gender equality are hypocrites.

What "gender equality" really means is that women are supposedly more valuable than men.

After all, its no big deal when a profession has almost no males in it, but if a profession has a lack of women, then its some great travesty.

They have. You know how UM gave 20 admissions points for being black? They gave 5 admissions points for being a male who applies to the nursing program.

It seems like some of us want to go back to a country where people are judged upon immutable and unachievable characteristics. But I think there are enough of us who believe in equal protection and civil rights to put an end to this harmful and morally wrong special group rights movement.

Well last time I heard, it's important to have URM in law schools and med schools b/c lawyers and physicians are so called service-provider, and most people will have to see a lawyer and physician soon or later in their lives. So that's why having URM in those areas are more important than having a balanced amount of racial groups in say, wrestling.

Now with that being said, I still feel that affirmative action at med schools are very politically-motivated. True, it may create more opportunities for URM, but is it an appropriate and best way to do so? I think more people will be hesitant to say it out loud. AA has evolved over the years, and now most schools won't just use a simplistic "point system" like UMich Law school did. However, there are a lot of ethical dilemma to continue to use AA in admissions and job employment.

Originally posted by MacGyver
You wont find a single nursing school in America that gives preference to men.

The people that spout off about gender equality are hypocrites.

What "gender equality" really means is that women are supposedly more valuable than men.

After all, its no big deal when a profession has almost no males in it, but if a profession has a lack of women, then its some great travesty.

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hehe. hate to burst your bubble but here in Texas they are actually making initiatives to attract more men to the nursing field. My mom is a nurse and subscribes to Texas nursing magazines. There was an article not long ago discussing the problem. There are quite a few nursing scholarships established for men, too.

Medicine is different from nursing. There is a long history of doctors using their place in medicine to racial or sexist, often politically oriented ends. Some examples are the Tuskegee trials, or the promotion of the idea in the 1800s that women shouldn't seek higher education or work because of the detriment to their fragile feminine bodies. Furthermore, groups such as women and minorities have historically been left out of research on things such as cancer and heart disease and are recently being included.

Medicine is a field where doctors yield a high amount of power in politics, in society and in science. There is something extremely distasteful about a lack of representation of the patient population being served. Untill white men are ready to vehemnently take up the specific health concerns of african americans or hispanics , I think equal representation in a medical school is a socially beneficial and laudable goal.

"Medicine is different from nursing. There is a long history of doctors using their place in medicine to racial or sexist, often politically oriented ends. Some examples are the Tuskegee trials, or the promotion of the idea in the 1800s that women shouldn't seek higher education or work because of the detriment to their fragile feminine bodies. Furthermore, groups such as women and minorities have historically been left out of research on things such as cancer and heart disease and are recently being included."

You need to read a book entitled "PC MD." After you've brushed some of the ignorance off of you, come on back and we will chat a bit about these things, most of which are fictional.

"There is something extremely distasteful about a lack of representation of the patient population being served. Untill white men are ready to vehemnently take up the specific health concerns of african americans or hispanics ,medical school is a socially beneficial and laudable goal."

Then you should be for dismantling AA and replacing it with class-based initiatives, no?

The biggest problem with these AA threads is that people get so ugly about it. Prmd4555 simply stated his/her opinion. Instead of giving a mature response, ernham calls the person ignorant and having fictional notions.

i believe everyone on this site has a modicum of intelligence to pursue medicine. Yet, way too many people are capable of holding an adult debate. It amazes me why anyone feels they will learn any new insight when arguing like this.

I'm very thankful for affirmative action because we all know that blacks, Hispanics, and other "URM's" aren't capable of success without legalized, government-mandated assistance. I just feel so bad for those poor non-whites who don't have the same abilities that I, the super-privileged whitey, take for granted.

"The biggest problem with these AA threads is that people get so ugly about it. Prmd4555s imply stated his/her opinion. Instead of giving a mature response, ernham calls the person ignorant and having fictional notions."

Indeed. Can I truly speak to you about PV=nRT if you do not understand algebra? Can we discus Spinoza's prose when you have difficulty with "see dick run"? I think not.


"i believe everyone on this site has a modicum of intelligence to pursue medicine. Yet, way too many people are capable of holding an adult debate. It amazes me why anyone feels they will learn any new insight when arguing like this."

Ahh, umm, huh?

You've got to be kidding me. How can you call me ignorant? Have you ever taken a history of medicine class? Obviously not or you wouldn't be so ineptly trying to deny my statements.
Try Schiebinger 's "Women and Science" which focuses on the lack or research studies that included women subjects untill the 1970's.
Try "Bones in the Basement" which shows how poor african americans were used, against their own will and that of their families, in medical school dissection labs in this century.

Pull out any volume of the Lancet between 1833 and 1900 and you will see numerous articles using medical theories to promote theories about race, women and sexual orientation. It is a good thing to be aware of medicine's not so always glorious past.

Finally try the health and human services website where you will find an article about the large discrepancies in cancer detection and survival rates between caucasians and underrepresented minorities.

Then you can come back and we can discuss this like adults.

^^ And that defends affirmative action how, again?

Originally posted by Ernham
"The biggest problem with these AA threads is that people get so ugly about it. Prmd4555s imply stated his/her opinion. Instead of giving a mature response, ernham calls the person ignorant and having fictional notions."

Indeed. Can I truly speak to you about PV=nRT if you do not understand algebra? Can we discus Spinoza's prose when you have difficulty with "see dick run"? I think not.


"i believe everyone on this site has a modicum of intelligence to pursue medicine. Yet, way too many people are capable of holding an adult debate. It amazes me why anyone feels they will learn any new insight when arguing like this."

Ahh, umm, huh?

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You assume the previous poster is ignorant on an issue. why? because his/her opinions and beliefs are not aligned with yours? Or because he/she may not have read some book you feel is valuable? For every anti-affirmative action article or book there is another to combat it. AA is not the same as a simple math or physics problem that can be solved on a chalkboard, so please don't trivialize it. As for the last comment, please explain why you are confused.

Originally posted by prmd4555

Finally try the health and human services website where you will find an article about the large discrepancies in cancer detection and survival rates between caucasians and underrepresented minorities.

Then you can come back and we can discuss this like adults.

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Since this is one thing you will not find in the book I suggested you use to scrub some of the crap off your festering brain:

Although race has been used frequently as a proxy for socioeconomic status in the US, this practice should be discontinued, as it is imprecise and potentially misleading. While it is true that African-Americans are over-represented among the poor, two-thirds of the 34 million Americans currently living in poverty are, in fact, White (22). In the study by Baquet et al (6) based on SEER cancer incidence data, Blacks had seven to 10 percent higher age-adjusted incidence rates for all cancer sites compared with Whites. However, when the data were adjusted for socioeconomic status (income and education), the overall cancer incidence rate for Blacks was seven percent lower than for Whites.

"Indeed. Can I truly speak to you about PV=nRT if you do not understand algebra? Can we discus Spinoza's prose when you have difficulty with "see dick run"? I think not."

How do I not understand the basics here? All you are doing is denying what I have said rather than supplying any sound evidence or fact. I like to debate,but not with someone who uses personal slights at intelligence rather than well thought out rebuffs.

How does socioeconomic based AA help physicians communicate and increase the reduced health outcomes of minorities? For instance, does it teach poor whites Spanish or cultural sensitivity? (Not to say they don't do either of those things) I expanded on this idea in the thread on BU. Just a thought.

Originally posted by hypersting
How does socioeconomic based AA help physicians communicate and increase the reduced health outcomes of minorities? For instance, does it teach poor whites Spanish or cultural sensitivity? (Not to say they don't do either of those things) I expanded on this idea in the thread on BU. Just a thought.

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Read my above post for why, you selfish piece of...

you have a lot of anger about this topic, is it personal?

This is my planet, my country. Everything is personal.

Excuse me? I did read that post. It says there are poor white Americans. This is true. My point is that the health outcomes on a race basis are worse for all minorities (URM or ORM), due to cultural and language differences. This is also a fact. This is helped by through two primary means, training more minority physcians, particular URM who will provide care in underserved areas and have proven to give better care to other URMs as well as training other non URM physicians to become more culturally competent in their care. Culturally competency is a huge topic in health policy right now, check pubmed.

How does this make me selfish? I am not myself a URM.

Originally posted by hypersting
Excuse me? I did read that post. It says there are poor white Americans. This is true. My point is that the health outcomes on a race basis are worse for all minorities (URM or ORM), due to cultural and language differences. This is also a fact. This is helped by through two primary means, training more minority physcians, particular URM who will provide care in underserved areas and have proven to give better care to other URMs as well as training other non URM physicians to become more culturally competent in their care. Culturally competency is a huge topic in health policy right now, check pubmed.

How does this make me selfish? I am not myself a URM.

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Data from 1996. Tell me what is more imporant: race or class?

Women with 16 or more years(college educated) of education, 94.7 percent of white women and 88.9 percent of black women received prenatal care during the first trimester of pregnancy. Less than 70 percent of women with less than a high school education received prenatal care regardless of race.

I don't give a flying fuq what the PC biches at pubmed are saying. I care about the truth, something YOU don't.

"A study in the June 1 issue of Cancer found significantly lower stage-specific survival rates for black women under the age of 50 even when the type and stage of the breast cancer were identical.....Even where African-Americans have equal incomes or equal insurance, the treatment is different and the outcomes are different. So you frequently get less aggressive treatment, and it's sometimes less awareness on the part of the patients and probably unconscious discrimination in most cases on the part of providers, who don't seem to act as quickly or as aggressively in treating their black patients.
Clinical trials, however, have shown that when black and white women receive equal treatment for their particular type of breast cancer, they have similar survival rates."
-Health and Human Services

"Many ethnic minorities develop cancer more frequently than the majority of the U.S. white population. African-American males, for example, develop cancer 15 percent more frequently than white males. Some specific forms of cancer affect other ethnic minority communities at rates up to several times higher than national averages. Many ethnic minorities also experience poorer cancer survival rates than whites. American Indians, for example, experience the lowest cancer survival rates of any U.S. ethnic group. Much of the disparity in cancer outcome is a reflection of type, timeliness, and continuity of cancer care rather than the disease itself. "
-National Cancer Institute

Originally posted by Ernham
Data from 1996. Tell me what is more imporant: race or class?

Women with 16 or more years(college educated) of education, 94.7 percent of white women and 88.9 percent of black women received prenatal care during the first trimester of pregnancy. Less than 70 percent of women with less than a high school education received prenatal care regardless of race.

I don't give a flying fuq what the PC biches at pubmed are saying. I care about the truth, something YOU don't.

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Why do you insist on personally attacking me? It detracts from your arguments.

In any case, apparently you have not read through much of the literature on the topic, since I did only a cursory search and have posted several links below. I only posted those that at least the abstract is available online. Working in health policy, particulary on statements regarding culturally effective care and diversity in the medical workforce was a real eye opener for me. I used to think as you did, but that view does not encompass the nuanced nature of this issue. The truth, as you so eloquently state, is that there are ethnic disparaties in health care that can be in part remedied by an increase in URM health professionals. Overall, our goal should not be whether we get admission, but whether health care benefits from our admission. A more damning critique of the medical profession is the artificial lowering of the number of medical school seats (~16,500) compared to residency positions (~23,000), thereby using the IMGs whose host countries had to pay for their medical education, only to have them abandon it to flee to the US for its lifestyle. Then again, these IMGs mainly fill in the gaps left by the US graduates in the underserved areas.

Here are those links.

http://www2.us.elsevierhealth.com/scripts/om.dll/serve?retrieve=/pii/S1073444903000670&

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5242a2.htm

http://www.academicmedicine.org/cgi/content/full/78/6/577

http://www.lwwonline.com/article.asp?ISSN=0025-7079&VOL=41&ISS=4&PAGE=536

If I get some time, I will track done some of those studies which were used for the policy statements. I'll have to contact some people though.

Originally posted by prmd4555
"A study in the June 1 issue of Cancer found significantly lower stage-specific survival rates for black women under the age of 50 even when the type and stage of the breast cancer were identical.....Even where African-Americans have equal incomes or equal insurance, the treatment is different and the outcomes are different. So you frequently get less aggressive treatment, and it's sometimes less awareness on the part of the patients and probably unconscious discrimination in most cases on the part of providers, who don't seem to act as quickly or as aggressively in treating their black patients.
Clinical trials, however, have shown that when black and white women receive equal treatment for their particular type of breast cancer, they have similar survival rates."
-Health and Human Services

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So many holes in your data that it must have been made in switzerland. For one, you can't compare flat income. The reason is that a dollar in most ubran areas is worth less than a dollar in must sub-urban and rural areas. I'm speaking of cost of living, of course. Additionally, you've chosen a disease that has a strong genetic basis. I could just as well post some slanted data on osteoporosis and make it look like black women are the king's chosen. I'd like a proprer cite for you data, however.

Originally posted by hypersting
Why do you insist on personally attacking me? It detracts from your arguments.

In any case, apparently you have not read through much of the literature on the topic, since I did only a cursory search and have posted several links below. I only posted those that at least the abstract is available online. Working in health policy, particulary on statements regarding culturally effective care and diversity in the medical workforce was a real eye opener for me. I used to think as you did, but that view does not encompass the nuanced nature of this issue. The truth, as you so eloquently state, is that there are ethnic disparaties in health care that can be in part remedied by an increase in URM health professionals. Overall, our goal should not be whether we get admission, but whether health care benefits from our admission. A more damning critique of the medical profession is the artificial lowering of the number of medical school seats (~16,500) compared to residency positions (~23,000), thereby using the IMGs whose host countries had to pay for their medical education, only to have them abandon it to flee to the US for its lifestyle. Then again, these IMGs mainly fill in the gaps left by the US graduates in the underserved areas.

Here are those links.

http://www2.us.elsevierhealth.com/scripts/om.dll/serve?retrieve=/pii/S1073444903000670&

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5242a2.htm

http://www.academicmedicine.org/cgi/content/full/78/6/577

http://www.lwwonline.com/article.asp?ISSN=0025-7079&VOL=41&ISS=4&PAGE=536

If I get some time, I will track done some of those studies which were used for the policy statements. I'll have to contact some people though.

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Oh, god, go away. You have to be extremely thick.

Originally posted by Ernham
Oh, god, go away. You have to be extremely thick.

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I'm sorry you can't respond to my assertions without constant personal attack. You asked for evidence. There it is. And I'm the thick one, right.

Originally posted by hypersting
I'm sorry you can't respond to my assertions without constant personal attack. You asked for evidence. There it is. And I'm the thick one, right.

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No evidence, no methodologies, no actual statistics. What you have here isn't enough evidence to convince even a two- year old of anything.

I'm still waiting for the answer to the question I asked. I notice that you folks are chicken**** as hell to answer it. Funny, that.

I didn't know the CDC and Academic Medicine weren't credible sources, my fault .....

Also both race and class are important. Health disparaties occur because of both factors.

Originally posted by Ernham
I don't give a flying fuq what the PC biches at pubmed are saying.

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So you don't care about peer-reviewed scientific journals?

Originally posted by hypersting
I didn't know the CDC and Academic Medicine weren't credible sources, my fault .....

Also both race and class are important. Health disparaties occur because of both factors.

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Nice copout. (on both accounts.)

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
So you don't care about peer-reviewed scientific journals?

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Not if their intent is to mislead the public via ignoring class and only looking at race, which is very common theme with such "studies." This is why the numbers and methodology are important.

Originally posted by Ernham
Not if their intent is to mislead the public via ignoring class and only looking at race, which is very common theme with such "studies." This is why the numbers and methodology are important.

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If searched pubmed, then you would find hundreds of articles, which found significant racial disparities in health, independent of class or gender. Are all of these authors trying to mislead the public? Is there some sort of gigantic leftwing conspiracy going on among the heads of major medical organizations to suppress the truth?

Well, well, well. Lookie here:

African-American women with breast cancer are more likely to be diagnosed with the disease at a later stage than their white counterparts, and consequently fare worse. A new study suggests that socioeconomic status, not race, is to blame.

Dr. Cathy J. Bradley from Michigan State University, East Lansing, and colleagues used data from a metropolitan Detroit registry that included 5,719 women with breast cancer, 593 of whom received Medicaid. The findings are published in the April 3rd issue of the Journal of the National Cancer Institute.

When the data were adjusted to take socioeconomic status into account, the differences in breast cancer care and outcome between African-American and white women nearly disappeared. The only factor that remained statistically significant between African-American and white women was choice of treatment.

African-American women were more likely to have no surgery compared with white women. African-American women who did undergo surgery were more likely than white women to have breast-conserving surgery, the researchers found.

Bradley and colleagues conclude that "low socioeconomic status is a risk factor for unfavorable breast cancer outcomes, regardless of race. Public health programs that alleviate environmental conditions that may make low-income women susceptible to cancer may help to reduce socioeconomically driven disparities in cancer outcomes.

"Likewise, public health programs aimed at increasing preventive behaviors among low-income persons may also lessen the gap in cancer outcomes. Extending healthcare coverage to uninsured individuals is also likely to improve health outcomes," they advise.

"The disparity (in healthcare) remains an unacceptable reality, and is an unsettling truth that we, as a society, have made meager efforts to even recognize the problem," Dr. Otis W. Brawley from Emory University, Atlanta, comments in a journal editorial. "We must provide equal quality of medical care to all. The solutions are not simple, but we must try."

Journal of the National Cancer Institute 2002;94:490-496

Originally posted by LP1CW
when doing a study, you have to control for all other variables except for the ones that you want to measure. And consistently, it comes down to economics. It's not about race. It's about opportunities that available, social support.

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Except there are hundreds of articles out there on pubmed, which control for income, gender, age, etc..., and still show significant racial disparities.

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Except there are hundreds of articles out there on pubmed, which control for income, gender, age, etc..., and still show significant racial disparities.

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You should have no problems finding and citing a few examples then, should you? How come you post idle bullchit instead? Avoid diseases that present confounding variables, too.

Originally posted by Ernham
African-American women with breast cancer are more likely to be diagnosed with the disease at a later stage than their white counterparts, and consequently fare worse. A new study suggests that socioeconomic status, not race, is to blame.

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Talk about misleading...here you are taking a study which looked at patients only in the Metropolitan Detroit area and have made generalizations about the whole country based on it.

And why are the authors of this study not "PC biches" intent on "misleading the public"?

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Talk about misleading...here you are taking a study which looked at patients only in the Metropolitan Detroit area and have made generalizations about the whole country based on it.

And why are the authors of this study not "PC biches" intent on "misleading the public"?

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Looks like reality is finally biting someone in the ass. I wonder how long his/her denial stage will last.

Pediatrics. 2003 Dec;112(6 Pt 2)

The role of race and ethnicity in the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) in four states: are there baseline disparities, and what do they mean for SCHIP?

Shone LP, Dick AW, Brach C, Kimminau KS, LaClair BJ, Shenkman EA, Col JF, Schaffer VA, Mulvihill F, Szilagyi PG, Klein JD, VanLandeghem K, Bronstein J.

"SCHIP is enrolling substantial numbers of racial and ethnic minority children. There are baseline racial and ethnic disparities among new enrollees in SCHIP, with black and Hispanic children faring worse than white children on many sociodemographic and health system measures, and there are differences among states in the prevalence and magnitude of these disparities. After controlling for sociodemographic factors, these disparities persisted."

Am J Public Health. 2003 Dec;93(12):2074-8.

Racial/ethnic differences in influenza vaccination coverage in high-risk adults.

Egede LE, Zheng D.

"After control for covariates, White patients with diabetes, chronic heart conditions, and cancer had a higher prevalence of influenza vaccination than did Black patients with the same conditions. "

J Natl Cancer Inst. 2003 Nov 19;95(22):1702-10.

Racial differences in mortality among Medicare recipients after treatment for localized prostate cancer.

Godley PA, Schenck AP, Amamoo MA, Schoenbach VJ, Peacock S, Manning M, Symons M, Talcott JA.

"The median survival time for black patients was 1.7 years (95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.6 to 1.9 years) less than that for white patients. Median survival in black patients relative to white patients was 1.8 years (95% CI = 1.5 to 2.0 years) less among those who had surgery, 0.7 years (95% CI = 0.5 to 1.0 years) less among those who had radiation therapy, and 1.0 years (95% CI = 0.7 to 1.1 years) less among those who had nonaggressive treatment. Racial disparities were evident both in overall survival and in prostate cancer-specific survival, before and after statistical adjustment for covariates. "

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Pediatrics. 2003 Dec;112(6 Pt 2)

The role of race and ethnicity in the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) in four states: are there baseline disparities, and what do they mean for SCHIP?

Shone LP, Dick AW, Brach C, Kimminau KS, LaClair BJ, Shenkman EA, Col JF, Schaffer VA, Mulvihill F, Szilagyi PG, Klein JD, VanLandeghem K, Bronstein J.

"SCHIP is enrolling substantial numbers of racial and ethnic minority children. There are baseline racial and ethnic disparities among new enrollees in SCHIP, with black and Hispanic children faring worse than white children on many sociodemographic and health system measures, and there are differences among states in the prevalence and magnitude of these disparities. After controlling for sociodemographic factors, these disparities persisted."

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The actual methods conflict with what is stated, a classic case of shoddy science and/or methodology, possibly deisgned to mislead:

MEASURES: Sociodemographic characteristics including income, education, employment, and other characteristics of the child and the family, race and ethnicity (white non-Hispanic, black non-Hispanic, and Hispanic [any race]), prior health insurance, health care access and utilization, and health status. ANALYSES: Bivariate analyses were used to compare baseline measures upon enrollment for white, black, and Hispanic SCHIP enrollees. Multivariate analyses were performed to assess health status and health care access measures (prior insurance, presence of a usual source of care (USC), and use of preventive care), controlling for demographic factors described above.

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Am J Public Health. 2003 Dec;93(12):2074-8.

Racial/ethnic differences in influenza vaccination coverage in high-risk adults.

Egede LE, Zheng D.

"After control for covariates, White patients with diabetes, chronic heart conditions, and cancer had a higher prevalence of influenza vaccination than did Black patients with the same conditions. "

Click to expand...

Oh, white people are more likely to get their flu shots, eh? What does this prove? I've had 4 different insurance carriers in my life and none of them covered flu shots. White people are more likely to brush their teeth and take a shower on any given day, too. It must all be Crest or Prell's fault.

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
J Natl Cancer Inst. 2003 Nov 19;95(22):1702-10.

Racial differences in mortality among Medicare recipients after treatment for localized prostate cancer.

Godley PA, Schenck AP, Amamoo MA, Schoenbach VJ, Peacock S, Manning M, Symons M, Talcott JA.

"The median survival time for black patients was 1.7 years (95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.6 to 1.9 years) less than that for white patients. Median survival in black patients relative to white patients was 1.8 years (95% CI = 1.5 to 2.0 years) less among those who had surgery, 0.7 years (95% CI = 0.5 to 1.0 years) less among those who had radiation therapy, and 1.0 years (95% CI = 0.7 to 1.1 years) less among those who had nonaggressive treatment. Racial disparities were evident both in overall survival and in prostate cancer-specific survival, before and after statistical adjustment for covariates. "

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Confounding variable due to hormonal effects associated with the disease. I warned you about these.

Additionally, although not a one of these you have posted has even been valid, none have even showed that RACE has greater ramifications than CLASS.

Originally posted by Ernham
White people are more likely to brush their teeth and take a shower on any given day, too.

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Wow, there is a ridiculous statement... It's too late to delete that...it's out there for everyone to see...

Originally posted by Ernham
Additionally, although not a one of these you have posted has even been valid, none have even showed that RACE has greater ramifications than CLASS.

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Class and race are intimately intertwined. Classism and racism both interact with one another to produce inequalities.


Here's another one from the IOM:

The Annals of Thoracic Surgery
Volume 76, Issue 4 , October 2003, Pages S1377-S1381

Unequal treatment: report of the institute of medicine on racial and ethnic disparities in healthcare

Alan R. Nelson MD, MACP

"We found that these disparities are associated with socioeconomic differences and diminish when socioeconomic factors are controlled, but they do not disappear. Disparities are found even when clinical factors, such as stage of disease presentation, comorbidities, age, and severity of disease are taken into account. They are found across a range of clinical settings, including public and private hospitals, teaching and nonteaching hospitals."

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Wow, there is a ridiculous statement... It's too late to delete that...it's out there for everyone to see...

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Good, leave it there. They are more likely to jog/walk/run and have internet access too, and all these things are while controlling for SES. Of course, it's not all roses; they have higher suicide rates too. This is all stuff out of my McMurray freshman psych book.

Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2003 Sep;157(9):867-74.

Racial and ethnic disparities in health care for adolescents: a systematic review of the literature.

Elster A, Jarosik J, VanGeest J, Fleming M.

"These results suggest that racial and ethnic disparities, independent of SES, exist in selected areas of adolescent health care. "