Another thought on Affirmative Action

[Ernham]

"We found that these disparities are associated with socioeconomic differences and diminish when socioeconomic factors are controlled, but they do not disappear. Disparities are found even when clinical factors, such as stage of disease presentation, comorbidities, age, and severity of disease are taken into account. They are found across a range of clinical settings, including public and private hospitals, teaching and nonteaching hospitals."

Well, I don't see this on pubmed. In any case, the wording is "decreases but does not disappear," and it gives no indication if the difference becomes negligible or not, nor does it satisfy what I instructed you to provide, THAT RACE IS A GREATER FACTOR THAN CLASS. Get it through your thick skull.

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[bigbaubdi]

Originally posted by Ernham
nor does it satisfy what I instructed you to provide, THAT RACE IS A GREATER FACTOR THAN CLASS. Get it through your thick skull.

Of course, you yourself are acknowledging here that RACE STILL MATTERS.

 

[....]

Black people and white people have differnt genes. Blakc people are better at sports geneticaly, is it that crazy to think maybe they dont live as long? I would imagine non-compliance has a bit to do with it too, but it may just be genetic. Women get breast cancer men get prostate cancer. White people get CP blakc people get it far less frequently. This is simply genetic. Maybe they live shorter lives by nature.

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2003 Sep;157(9):867-74.

Racial and ethnic disparities in health care for adolescents: a systematic review of the literature.

Elster A, Jarosik J, VanGeest J, Fleming M.

"These results suggest that racial and ethnic disparities, independent of SES, exist in selected areas of adolescent health care. "

What is this, strike 8? Man, you are OUT. Not wasting anymore time with a ***** that cannot read plain English.

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Of course, you yourself are acknowledging here that RACE STILL MATTERS.

Lots of things matter. The important thing is delineating which ones are the most prolific; race doesn't even come close to a myriad of others.

 

[LP1CW]

Yes there are some gross racial differences, but the differences that matter the most is environment and economics.

Because when you're talking about race, it could easily lead to a genetics argument. ALl of us could site IQ differences that still persist outside of economic differences. Are African Americans not as smart as asians, whites? Is it about economics? Is it genetics? Everthing, for the most part, comes down to economics. Disadvantaged people don't fair as well in all areas of life because of the many variables of that are presented in their dispirted existences. We need to uplift all people, not just a few people. Programs like BU are wrong.

 

[bigbaubdi]

Originally posted by Ernham
Lots of things matter. The important thing is delineating which ones are the most prolific; race doesn't even come close to a myriad of others.

You are correct, race is irrelevant in this country. 400 years of slavery, 3/5ths rules, segregation, Jim Crow, lynchings, discrimination, etc... all of this magically disappeared a few decades ago, right?

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
You are correct, race is irrelevant in this country. 400 years of slavery, 3/5ths rules, segregation, Jim Crow, lynchings, discrimination, etc... all of this magically disappeared a few decades ago, right?

You know that's 2004, right? This crap is all tired cliches. The class structure inherited from Europe has seen certain classes as de facto slaves for a 1,000+ years. Blacks actually got off fairly lucky in the grand scheme of things.

Additionally, would have black americans not have been brought here, they would be living in a chithole third world country in Africa. Truth hurts, doesn't it?

 

[Thundrstorm]

Originally posted by Ernham
You know that's 2004, right? This crap is all tired cliches. The class structure inherited from Europe has seen certain classes as de facto slaves for a 1,000+ years. Blacks actually got off fairly lucky in the grand scheme of things.

Additionally, would have black americans not have been brought here, they would be living in a chithole third world country in Africa. Truth hurts, doesn't it?

And perhaps had other key events in history not occured (e.g. Colonization of the African continent), African countries wouldn't be 3rd world. What an asinine comment.

 

[deleted36260]

Originally posted by ndi_amaka
hehe. hate to burst your bubble but here in Texas they are actually making initiatives to attract more men to the nursing field. My mom is a nurse and subscribes to Texas nursing magazines. There was an article not long ago discussing the problem. There are quite a few nursing scholarships established for men, too.

That disgusts me more than I can say. I despise the thought of being treated as if I need some extra help based on my sex or race. Anyone that WANTS help for these reasons has too little self confidence, or is purely lazy.

 

[deleted36260]

Originally posted by Thundrstorm
And perhaps had other key events in history not occured (e.g. Colonization of the African continent), African countries wouldn't be 3rd world. What an asinine comment.

Expand on this. Slavery, nor the colonization of Africa is to blame for Africa's present status.

 

[deleted36260]

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
You are correct, race is irrelevant in this country. 400 years of slavery, 3/5ths rules, segregation, Jim Crow, lynchings, discrimination, etc... all of this magically disappeared a few decades ago, right?

It would if racial pundits like Jesse Jackson weren't looking to enhance the divide.
AA and other such programs simply ruins the credibility of legit URM's that have made it without such assistance, or made it with that assistance, but didn't need it. It minimizes their work,and breeds hatred from those that are not given special status.

 

[Integra96]

Phatmonky for Pres.!

 

[JayMiranti]

i am not a URM and i have to say this issue definitely does get me thinking....

i feel that it is WAAAY easier for a URM to get into med school than a non-URM. that is what really makes it seem like there is something wrong to me.

i mean if the differences in numbers are small, a couple MCAT points, or a couple tenths of a GPA points, I can see giving preference to URMS. I guess the idea being to incorporate this profession into their culture, and in turn have their culture breed better, equally qualified applicants as a result of this "jump start"

But i feel like its not a couple of points here and there. I think that its much more than that, creating the problems everyone is discussing, its so extreme you know?

 

[hypersting]

Originally posted by Ernham
Nice copout. (on both accounts.)

The first statement was sarcastic. Your ability to serious doubt the credibility of the CDC makes me laugh. The second statement is true, but again, race ALONE affects health outcomes as proven in hundreds of studies (I posted 4 as well as several posted by bigbaudi). Then again, you will assert that they ALL have shoddy methodolgies. It all one huge left-wing conspiracy, right?. Or, maybe the entire academic world is wrong. Maybe the same physicians that are graduating from institutions we all want to attend don't know how to do research. Can you prove that African-Americans are making substandard physicians? Please enough is enough.

Maybe you are just posting to get a rise out of people. Be happy in your accomplishment. If not, I am angry at myself for getting into a debate that would respond to well thought out points with personal attacks and meaningless drivel.

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by Thundrstorm
And perhaps had other key events in history not occured (e.g. Colonization of the African continent), African countries wouldn't be 3rd world. What an asinine comment.

The majority of Africa was only colonized for a very short time, decades. Most Africans didn't even know they were colonized until some European explained what all that crazy mumbo jumbo was all about.

Let's not forget that Ethiopia was never colonized by anyone. They are probably the worst off African country today, too. Doh! Looks like it shoots that idea to chit!

Additionally, India/taiwan were also colonized for substantial periods; taiwan now has probably the best education system in the world, and india has been into space. Double doh!

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by hypersting
Maybe you are just posting to get a rise out of people. Be happy in your accomplishment. If not, I am angry at myself for getting into a debate that would respond to well thought out points with personal attacks and meaningless drivel.

Maybe you are just too stupid to "get it."

 

[supereagles]

Originally posted by Integra96
I'm very thankful for affirmative action because we all know that blacks, Hispanics, and other "URM's" aren't capable of success without legalized, government-mandated assistance. I just feel so bad for those poor non-whites who don't have the same abilities that I, the super-privileged whitey, take for granted.

Obviously someome has some serious issues

 

[JohnHolmes]

Guys,

What is the big deal with AA? It helps a lot and hurts very little. If we did away with it, we would get what, 2-3% more white kids into med schools per school. These are borderline white kids, anyways ... If equality is what we are looking for--maybe you should have studied another two or three hours and pulled up your GPA that .003 that made the difference. Maybe you should look internally a bit more and find out why your application was rejected and your fellow white guy was accepted? Point is: don't externalize anger on AA for causing problems, it helps solve them ... if your application fails at school X there is one and only one reason for it: you weren't the candidate that they were looking for ..

From a fellow WASP
CCW

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

Originally posted by JayMiranti
i feel that it is WAAAY easier for a URM to get into med school than a non-URM. that is what really makes it seem like there is something wrong to me.

Acceptance Rates by Race, 2001:

Black- 42.6%
Native American- 52%
Mexican American-53.4%
Mainland PR- 60.4%
White- 51.7%
Asian/Pacific Islander- 51.1%
Other Hispanic-42.6%
Commonwealth PR- 49.7%
Foreign-23%

All URMS-46%
All Non-URMS-51.2%

Data also shows a decline in acceptance of URMs since 1995.

If anyone wants to blame someone for 'taking their seat,' blame Mexican-americans and mainland Puerto Ricans. No one seems to mind the extra measures taken to get them into US med schools.

 

[LP1CW]

You're data is not what counts idiot. Do these groups mirror each other. Do these groups have the same GPA, undergraduate schools, MCAT scores, and ECs. NO, so what does this prove?

NOthing. You are looking at many, many more, and this has been shown, go to aamc.org, and look at the facts. African Americans do not match up against asians and white applicants. So, what's your point *****?

I'm tired of debating idiot liberals who think that AA is the answer. It's not the answer. Blacks need to own responsibility for their lives. Democrats have created a system of dependency for lower income people and many hispanics and blacks benefit for it. I'm not saying that their isn't tons of white trash folks out their lining up to cleck disability for fraudulent "bad backs." There is. It's about all people. People need to strive to be more and stop settling for less.

If we're going to help people, it can't be about race. We need to stop judging people by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. SOunds familiar, doesn't it. We need to help socioeconomically disadvantaged people regardless of color. There are asians and whites that are living impoverished lives. Yes, more black and hispanics, proportionately, not overall, are in poverty. So, this would benefit all people.

I believe that we need to help people that are at risk. We encourage people to increase their awareness of life, meaning. We need to inspire all people to be more. We need to encourage unwed teens not to have more babies. They are having babies and they're not equipped to be mothers. THey are creating more problems for our society. It's wrong. These kids are being abused by a system. These mothers are taking advantaged of our welfare system. ALl of us need to contribute to our society. We should unfairly expect the upper class to contribute more. We should have across the board taxes.

 

[deleted36260]

Originally posted by Cooper_Wriston
Guys,

What is the big deal with AA? It helps a lot and hurts very little. If we did away with it, we would get what, 2-3% more white kids into med schools per school.


These are borderline white kids, anyways ... If equality is what we are looking for--maybe you should have studied another two or three hours and pulled up your GPA that .003 that made the difference.


Maybe you should look internally a bit more and find out why your application was rejected and your fellow white guy was accepted?

Point is: don't externalize anger on AA for causing problems, it helps solve them ... if your application fails at school X there is one and only one reason for it: you weren't the candidate that they were looking for ..

From a fellow WASP
CCW

It's not about putting more white kids in or not. It's about "judging people on the content of their character" (and quantitative scores like GPA and MCAT) instead of quotas. AA IS RACISM. You can be happy about the ends, but the means GO AGAINST the actual goal - racial equality, and the end to racism. If you put URM's in all day long, but it enhances hatred because the system is racist, it DOES NOT HELP.

Your lame GPA argument is another moot point. If they studied more, then someone else will be put borderling, and although they ARE capable, we put in someone based on race that may not be capable. You explain to me how that is good for schools, patients, or anyone but the individual URM that got in?

My application will not be rejected. I depise the system and will still find a way in. That doesn't remove the stigma that AA attached to my URM friends who are also goign for med school. When they get in, they may be given the disservice of getting in when they SHOULDN'T, as well as being labeled as "needing help".


"It helps solve them"?? You have yet to show how AA helps. Simply, you've only minimized the problems that it causes. That's not very convincing.




My final question is - what happens if white males become the minority? When do we get to be labeled as "unable to work for ourselves"?

 

[deleted36260]

Originally posted by LP1CW

If we're going to help people, it can't be about race. We need to stop judging people by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. SOunds familiar, doesn't it. We need to help socioeconomically disadvantaged people regardless of color. There are asians and whites that are living impoverished lives. Yes, more black and hispanics, proportionately, not overall, are in poverty. So, this would benefit all people.

Fully agree. Base extra admissions on economic conditions, and there would be no complainining. If an unhealthy number of those people are black, so be it. If a majority of those are white, well so be that as well.
There is no direct coorelation between race and ability to learn, or education level. There is however a direct link between the two and economic status.

 

[Rendar5]

Ernham:

for someone so obsessive about drawing conclusions and avoiding fallacies, you sure use a lot of ad hominem fallacies in your arguing.

 

[Thundrstorm]

Originally posted by phatmonky
Expand on this. Slavery, nor the colonization of Africa is to blame for Africa's present status.

I didn't say that colonization is responsible for Africa's current problems. There are a myriad of complex reasons, but that was not my point. I just wasn't comfortable with the implication that slavery did African Americans a favor, that it was somehow desirable.

 

[deleted36260]

Originally posted by Thundrstorm
I didn't say that colonization is responsible for Africa's current problems. There are a myriad of complex reasons, but that was not my point. I just wasn't comfortable with the implication that slavery did African Americans a favor, that it was somehow desirable.

Point taken

 

[klooless]

WHY IS THIS INANE THREAD STILL HERE?

 

[deleted36260]

Originally posted by klooless
WHY IS THIS INANE THREAD STILL HERE?

Becuase you and I can't stop adding to it