to all IMGs....

doctorP · Mar 16, 2005

Hi everybody,
I am new to this forum but I like this place very much.

I just want to tell all you guys, who weren't lucky this year, don't give up...

Kimberly, I have already posted the same thread in other forum..., but I would like to address my fellow IMGs, who are in bad mood right now.

Listen up,
it's not the end of the world. I know how hard it is. Believe me I was at the same situation several times. I had problems passing my USMLE, so I had to do it...many times (I lost my count). Finally I was certified with scores around 80....I was proud of myself, but at the same time I knew doors are shout for me. Anyway I tried everything, and....after several attempts I matched this year! I am so greatful to the person, who didn't look only at scores, attempts, but also at me as a human being who made mistakes and had to pay for them. And this person gave me a chance to become a doctor here, to fulfill my dream, to be happy.

So I wish you all the best in finding this particular person and be strong and persistant in your search. Don't you ever give up!!!!!

Good luck.

asroczka · Mar 16, 2005

I am very happy for you. i hope someone will do something like this for me one day. I am Scrambling right now, I had one call but that's it for now. Nobody wants IMG without expirience in US. My visa expires soon, I have to go back to so called home country. What then, who will want me? Where can I get paid expirience here in US? I am willing to move to any State. Thanx for any advice

xicapup · Mar 16, 2005

asroczka said:
I am very happy for you. i hope someone will do something like this for me one day. I am Scrambling right now, I had one call but that's it for now. Nobody wants IMG without expirience in US. My visa expires soon, I have to go back to so called home country. What then, who will want me? Where can I get paid expirience here in US? I am willing to move to any State. Thanx for any advice

What speciality are you looking ?
New York, New Jersey, Ohio, Connecticut, etc are plenty of IMG's doctors.
myself now in pgy3 going to pgy4 ob/gyn

ResidencyDream · Mar 16, 2005

doctorP said:
Hi everybody,
I am new to this forum but I like this place very much.

I just want to tell all you guys, who weren't lucky this year, don't give up...

Kimberly, I have already posted the same thread in other forum..., but I would like to address my fellow IMGs, who are in bad mood right now.

Listen up,
it's not the end of the world. I know how hard it is. Believe me I was at the same situation several times. I had problems passing my USMLE, so I had to do it...many times (I lost my count). Finally I was certified with scores around 80....I was proud of myself, but at the same time I knew doors are shout for me. Anyway I tried everything, and....after several attempts I matched this year! I am so greatful to the person, who didn't look only at scores, attempts, but also at me as a human being who made mistakes and had to pay for them. And this person gave me a chance to become a doctor here, to fulfill my dream, to be happy.

So I wish you all the best in finding this particular person and be strong and persistant in your search. Don't you ever give up!!!!!

Good luck.

asroczka · Mar 16, 2005

xicapup said:
What speciality are you looking ?
New York, New Jersey, Ohio, Connecticut, etc are plenty of IMG's doctors.
myself now in pgy3 going to pgy4 ob/gyn

I would love to do psychiatry, eventually family practice (easiest to get, that what they say). I'm on my student status. The thing is I have no sponsors and I am completly finacially supporting myself here and I cannot afford working for free, like on observership. I applied late for match, have no US expirience, got one call during scramble and silence... My options are finishing, in Aug I will have to go back home if I do not find something that will give me expirience, visa plus is paid. Any advice would be highly appriciated

tmudi · Mar 17, 2005

Hi,
this is for my daughter. we are citizens. my daughter is her undergraduation 4th year. 3.0/27mcat. very hard to get into medical college with those scores.
My plan is sending her back to india for basic sciences(which is 2 and half yrs) and tr. to carribean schools for clinicals(which is basicall in USA). they have the tr. policy. only condition she has to get MLE 200 score after her basic sciences. even all carribean graduates who is entering clinicals here they have to pass the MLE step 1. the reason i am sending to india for basic sciences our indian medical education is strong. i am trying Mangalore KMC college, PSG medical coimbatore. any advice or suggestion please.
because sh is doing her clinicals here so it is for her to get match.
thanks,
sam

doctorP said:
Hi everybody,
I am new to this forum but I like this place very much.

I just want to tell all you guys, who weren't lucky this year, don't give up...

Kimberly, I have already posted the same thread in other forum..., but I would like to address my fellow IMGs, who are in bad mood right now.

Listen up,
it's not the end of the world. I know how hard it is. Believe me I was at the same situation several times. I had problems passing my USMLE, so I had to do it...many times (I lost my count). Finally I was certified with scores around 80....I was proud of myself, but at the same time I knew doors are shout for me. Anyway I tried everything, and....after several attempts I matched this year! I am so greatful to the person, who didn't look only at scores, attempts, but also at me as a human being who made mistakes and had to pay for them. And this person gave me a chance to become a doctor here, to fulfill my dream, to be happy.

So I wish you all the best in finding this particular person and be strong and persistant in your search. Don't you ever give up!!!!!

Good luck.

doctorP · Mar 17, 2005

Hey tmudi,
sounds like a good plan to me. Don't be discouraged with her low scores, because there is always a way around it. But do not let her make my mistakes: tell her to study hard for USMLE, because it is a key to everything here in the US medical world.
Good luck.

doctorP · Mar 17, 2005

asroczka said:
I would love to do psychiatry, eventually family practice (easiest to get, that what they say). I'm on my student status. The thing is I have no sponsors and I am completly finacially supporting myself here and I cannot afford working for free, like on observership. I applied late for match, have no US expirience, got one call during scramble and silence... My options are finishing, in Aug I will have to go back home if I do not find something that will give me expirience, visa plus is paid. Any advice would be highly appriciated

Have you tried research in your area? Maybe it would ba an option for you. I know there are PhD courses available...At least it would keep you here in the US. And also they pay some money to survive...

If not, how about trying to get a physician assistant certification? I know there are some exams you would have to take (without any additional courses and costs) to be certified and off you go....
Try: www.absa.net I know it is about surgical assistants, but they might be helpful.

condyloma · Mar 17, 2005

Just my opinion, dont send your daughter to India for med school.
It sucks being an FMG. Youre treated like **** , or at least a second class citizen.

I am a US citizen and went to India for med school.

I am also bitter.

Make her take the MCAT again.

shahkg · Mar 17, 2005

condyloma said:
Just my opinion, dont send your daughter to India for med school.
It sucks being an FMG. Youre treated like **** , or at least a second class citizen.

I am a US citizen and went to India for med school.

I am also bitter.

Make her take the MCAT again.

Make her take the MCAT again, and get into a US SCHOOL!!!!!!!

I went to St. George's University in the Caribbean and didn't match

Wait if you have to, but get into a US medical school...it makes a HUGE difference. Oh, and I am a 3.2 GPA, solid letters, good USMLE scores. Places would just rather have an American grad.

f_w · Mar 18, 2005

IMHO you are better off going to a reputable indian medschool rather than one of the commercial rackets in the caribbean.

The general assumption is that there is a competitive selection process to get into medschool in most countries. The only selection criterion for the caribbean outfits seems to be rejection from US medical and osteopathic schools.
That said, I have worked with well trained physicians from most of the caribbean schools at one time or another. A select few where complete tools and a menace to their patients but that is surely not unique to this type of school.

asroczka · Mar 18, 2005

doctorP said:
Have you tried research in your area? Maybe it would ba an option for you. I know there are PhD courses available...At least it would keep you here in the US. And also they pay some money to survive...

If not, how about trying to get a physician assistant certification? I know there are some exams you would have to take (without any additional courses and costs) to be certified and off you go....
Try: www.absa.net I know it is about surgical assistants, but they might be helpful.

I
GOT ONE RESEARCH PROPOSAL FROM WSU IN DETROIT BUT THAN THEY WITHDRAW IT SAYING THAT I DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH EXPIRIENCE. HOW CAN I GET ONE IF I NOBODY WANTS TO GIVE ME A CHANCE? THIS IS ONE REDICULOUS WAY THAT AMERICA WORKS. SHOULD I CONTACT INDIVIDUAL HOPITALS ABOUT THOSE PHD COURSES? THANKS FOR HELPING

ALMD2B · Mar 19, 2005

f_w said:
IMHO you are better off going to a reputable indian medschool rather than one of the commercial rackets in the caribbean.

This is debatable. If you go to an indian medical school, you are still considered foreign without any US clinical experience. If you do go to the Caribbean, you WILL have US clinical experience.

Nothing compares to having your foot in the door (an american door, that is). Understanding how the hospitals work here, how to write proper patient notes, how to draw labs, write orders etc....It's experience you can get no where other than in the US. As an added bonus, you can ask for Letters of Recommendation (absolutely necessary for match application!) from reputable doctors here in the US (you can't get these in India, or anywhere outside the US). I speak of experience because initially I trained in Eastern Europe and then transferred to a carib school. I have seen the difference of training in US hospitals vs. foreign hospitals. If you goal is to practice in the US, the choice is obvious.

I just graduated from a caribbean medical school. It has given me everything I wanted and deserve; a reputable medical eduation, a medical degree, and through the match, i have gotten a US residency. I cannot complain.

caribbean outfits seems to be rejection from US medical and osteopathic schools.

Again not true. Many of the students in the caribbean schools are either Physican assistants, lab technicians, Occupation therapists, Physical therapists, fresh-college grads who have not even bothered applying to the US medical schools because they know it would be too competitive. They don't want to waste anymore time applying and losing years of their life expecting to get in. Since they were guaranteed places in carib med schools, they had nothing to lose. Most usually know carib grads who have made it through and are practicing in US hospitals.

That said, I have worked with well trained physicians from most of the caribbean schools at one time or another. A select few where complete tools and a menace to their patients but that is surely not unique to this type of school.

Again, notice the word "select few". No matter where you study, where you work, where you live, there will always be "bad apples" in the basket. You can do nothing about it but live with it and prove to those in higher authority that you are the best resident/doctor in the group. It's all about what you put in and what you believe you can do.

IMGDoc2b · Mar 19, 2005

nascarmedc said:
I have to agree. She needs to go to a US school. I am a US citizen IMG. I went to MUA and St. Chris. I aced med school, I passed Step 1 on the first try, did great on Step , passed CSA, had excellent letters of recommendation and an incredible background in EMS. I applied to 35 Emergency Med residency programs and didn't get one interview.

I got smart in November and applied to Family Med prgrams and found an excellent porogram that will allow me to specialize in rural ER. I prematched so I didn't have to endure the horror of the Match.

My rejections from the ER residencies were based soley on the fact that I chose to go to a foreign med school. Program directors even told me so.

Don't let your daughter make that mistake. there is a US med school out there that will acccept her. It may take a while to get in but she is young and has plenty of time.

i have to disagree..

i went to a school in the caribbean and i matched in gas

my friend from SABA in the caribbean matched in a very good EM program. He had avg step 1 and 2 scores, was an EMT in his past life, no visa issues.. he applied to the match early and had several interviews

have another friend who also had slightly above avg scores and went to Ross and matched in EM, he too also had many more than a handful of interviews...

only difference between these people and the above poster is, they did not BOUNCE around and TRANSFER from school to school. This hurts you. Also if you are a nontraditional, older applicant, 40s,especially in EM, have a wrist injury that prevented u from working ur previous job, as the above poster.. it also hurts you, and a 191 is not enough to overcome all that. So im sure the combination of bouncing around from school to school and age and board scores played a significant role.

If your daughter cannot get into a US school its not the end of the world. She can pursue an alternate route, but be careful about making the mistake of transferring around and changing schools half way through, it can hurt you like it hurt the above poster.

maverick_pkg · Mar 19, 2005

a nice option for her would be to study in india for 4.5 years, finish her mbbs and then do her 1 year internship in US which is required to get the med school diploma. that way she also gets 1 yr US clinical experience.
It also depends if she is more interested in medicine or pediatrics than a competitive speciality like surgery (though difficult to tell at this stage) then non US med school is ok else stick to US one only

Adam_K · Mar 19, 2005

tmudi said:
Hi,
this is for my daughter. we are citizens. my daughter is her undergraduation 4th year. 3.0/27mcat. very hard to get into medical college with those scores.
My plan is sending her back to india for basic sciences(which is 2 and half yrs) and tr. to carribean schools for clinicals(which is basicall in USA). they have the tr. policy. only condition she has to get MLE 200 score after her basic sciences. even all carribean graduates who is entering clinicals here they have to pass the MLE step 1. the reason i am sending to india for basic sciences our indian medical education is strong. i am trying Mangalore KMC college, PSG medical coimbatore. any advice or suggestion please.
because sh is doing her clinicals here so it is for her to get match.
thanks,
sam

I think that you should ask yourself a couple of questions.

Why are you posting this instead of her?
Are you absolutely certain that she wants to go to medical school?
Why are her grades so poor?

I ask this for a number of reasons. A number of my classmates were sent to medical school by their parents. A couple were even the sons/daughters of doctors. Throughout med school they were miserable. But because of cultural reasons they could not tell their parents that they did not want to be there. Few of them bothered to get a residency.

I think that is pretty sad. But I have seen worse. I was working on the psychiatric emergency service recently where I saw a young lady who was also trying to get into medical school. She was a second generation Asian-American. Her academic load was simply too much for her. Unfortunately the only way she could communicate this with her parents was through the medical staff after being admitted with catatonic depression.

Even worse a brother of a classmate of mine decided that facing his parents after failing an admissions test was a worse fate for him than jumping out of an eighth story window. I wonder how his parents felt.

So before you think about 'sending' your daughter anywhere you should probably try talk to her to find out what she really wants to do.

USMedStudent · Mar 19, 2005

Adam_K said:
I think that you should ask yourself a couple of questions.

Why are you posting this instead of her?

Are you absolutely certain that she wants to go to medical school?

Why are her grades so poor?

I ask this for a number of reasons. A number of my classmates were sent to medical school by their parents. A couple were even the sons/daughters of doctors. Throughout med school they were miserable. But because of cultural reasons they could not tell their parents that they did not want to be there. Few of them bothered to get a residency.

I think that is pretty sad. But I have seen worse. I was working on the psychiatric emergency service recently where I saw a young lady who was also trying to get into medical school. She was a second generation Asian-American. Her academic load was simply too much for her. Unfortunately the only way she could communicate this with her parents was through the medical staff after being admitted with catatonic depression.

Even worse a brother of a classmate of mine decided that facing his parents after failing an admissions test was a worse fate for him than jumping out of an eighth story window. I wonder how his parents felt.

So before you think about 'sending' your daughter anywhere you should probably try talk to her to find out what she really wants to do.

Adam, excellent points there.

You should be a psychiatrist (if you're not already one.)

I have met many Indian-American, Asian-American med students/residents that wish nothing more than getting out of medicine. They were forced into this. To me, their parents are the worst idiots, the worst enemies they could ever have. Medicine is way too hard for a hobby.

Indian med schools train far better doctors than most med schools in the world, including many US med schools. But if the students want to PRACTICE in the US, first and foremost is they must do clinical rotations in the US. This makes sense, because conversely anyone who want to PRACTICE in India must do clinical rotations in India. The best approach, to me, is to go to Caribbean schools for 2 years, then pass the darn Step 1, then do clinical rotations in the US. Caribbean schools tend to pass everyone (except St. Georges) - that favor students who can study on their own for the boards. Then if those students do clinical rotations in the US, they will be trained just as well as any US students, except for some invasive procedures in surgery they may not be allowed to do, due to insurance issues.

Many Caribbean med students, however, don't have Step 1 by the time they enter clinical rotations, and this is a BIG mistake. Not only they don't know enough basic sciences to learn clinical medicine, but also they study for Step 1 while doing the rotations, usually with bad results on BOTH. One wise thing many Caribbean students should do is to pass Step 1 before entering clinical rotations, that way they can do the rotations well, and study for Step 2. This is hard to do for most, though, because if they take any time off to study for Step 1, they can't borrow any money to live, and they must pay back the loans a few months after being out of school as such. But, my own statistics show that Step 1 requires most non-US med school students at least 1 full year to study. This explains why most Caribbean med students do so badly on the Boards, hence the Match. They were badly trained in basic sciences, in fact I think they were not taught properly at all, or what they learned actually hurt more than help them with Step 1. I have seen too many of them doing rotations while carrying tons of Step 1 books. It takes Einstein to do well on both like that. Just studying for Step 1 without doing anything else is already one of the hardest tasks in modern time if not THE most hardest task, and here are people that do it while spending 60 hours a week doing clinicals. That just ain't work for most.

IMGDoc2b · Mar 19, 2005

USMedStudent said:
.

Many Caribbean med students, however, don't have Step 1 by the time they enter clinical rotations, and this is a BIG mistake. Not only they don't know enough basic sciences to learn clinical medicine, but also they study for Step 1 while doing the rotations, usually with bad results on BOTH. One wise thing many Caribbean students should do is to pass Step 1 before entering clinical rotations, that way they can do the rotations well, and study for Step 2. This is hard to do for most, though, because if they take any time off to study for Step 1, they can't borrow any money to live, and they must pay back the loans a few months after being out of school as such. But, my own statistics show that Step 1 requires most non-US med school students at least 1 full year to study. This explains why most Caribbean med students do so badly on the Boards, hence the Match. They were badly trained in basic sciences, in fact I think they were not taught properly at all, or what they learned actually hurt more than help them with Step 1. I have seen too many of them doing rotations while carrying tons of Step 1 books. It takes Einstein to do well on both like that. Just studying for Step 1 without doing anything else is already one of the hardest tasks in modern time if not THE most hardest task, and here are people that do it while spending 60 hours a week doing clinicals. That just ain't work for most.

im not sure which caribbean school students you have rotated with, but the majority will NOT allow them to start clinical clerkships until they have taken and passed step 1. At a max they may be allowed one clerkship while waiting for pending results, but if they do not pass they are not allowed to continue with clerkships.

for detailed info about the various schools you can visit www.valuemd.com,
theres a whole wealth of information there about the different caribbean schools.

Majority of my friends and I all scored 215 or above on step 1, on first attempt and studied between 3 weeks and 10 weeks max for the exam.

f_w · Mar 19, 2005

> If you go to an indian medical school, you are still considered foreign
> without any US clinical experience. If you do go to the Caribbean,
> you WILL have US clinical experience.

If you go to a carib school, you ar considered american without the credentials to make it into medschool the usual way. Believe me, that is a stigma hard to get rid of.

> Nothing compares to having your foot in the door (an american door, that is).

Foot in the door at some second rate community hospital. I had Ross and SGU medstudents work with me when I rotated to some peripheral small places. They were smart and motivated, but the clinical experience they got there was no comparison to what our 'own' students got at the core hospitals.

> Understanding how the hospitals work here, how to write proper patient notes,
> how to draw labs, write orders etc....It's experience you can get no where other
> than in the US.

LoL. English is my second language, I trained in a medical system quite different from the US. It took me something like 4wks to get the hang of functioning as an intern in a busy public hospital in the US (4wks and two smart as heck orthodox sub-I's who helped me to navigate the jungle of acronyms and social realities of that particular practice situation)

> As an added bonus, you can ask for Letters of Recommendation
> (absolutely necessary for match application!) from reputable
> doctors here in the US

That is a big plus, LOR's from US physicians are helpful. But again, if you go to a reputable medschool overseas, you can go to first rate US medschools for electives or clerkship rotations during your final year. It'll cost you, but it is a good way to get letters from people with 'pull'. (btw. a letter from a known consultant in the UK will beat one from a community physician in the US any day)

> If you goal is to practice in the US, the choice is obvious.

Not so obvious if you ask me. I am working with a couple of physicians who are second generation indians and irish who went back to their parents countries to go to medschool. It is not necessarily cheaper than a US school, but it doesn't have the downsides of the carib outfits.

> I just graduated from a caribbean medical school. It has given me everything
> I wanted and deserve;

Good for you. I just happen to know a couple of people running into brickwall after brickwall during their career bc of their primary medical education. Some medical boards had trouble with candidates even from the more known caribbean schools. As a result, they will scrutinize further applicants with much more zeal than your regular overseas FMG. Getting a residency in the US is the first step in a long career. Anytime you move and apply for a medical license or priviledges at a new hospital, you have to explain all the steps of your medical education. While a carib school might give you a slight edge in getting into a residency, in the long run a regular foreign school will be better. The US medical system is full of FMG's in leading positions (look at Elias Zerhouni), you can't say that of any of the carib schools.

> who have not even bothered applying to the US medical schools because they
> know it would be too competitive.

Doesn't make a difference to me whether someone got rejected or didn't bother to apply. I don't want to even comment on whether someone from a carib school is a better or worse doctor than a US or indian graduate, this discussion was more about whether for the situation given by the OP it makes more sense to do one or the other.

> No matter where you study, where you work, where you live, there will always be
> "bad apples" in the basket.

Hence the word 'a select few' and I don't want to generalize. But: I worked at academic medical centers for the past 6 years now, and somehow both of these schools seem to have a good mechanism to weed out the whacko's during first and second year. (But, both of the schools are state-schools, they don't depend on the medstudents for a living, different from a commercial teaching outfit in the caribbean)

PathOne · Mar 19, 2005

tmudi said:
Hi,
this is for my daughter. we are citizens. my daughter is her undergraduation 4th year. 3.0/27mcat. very hard to get into medical college with those scores.
My plan is sending her back to india for basic sciences(which is 2 and half yrs) and tr. to carribean schools for clinicals(which is basicall in USA). they have the tr. policy. only condition she has to get MLE 200 score after her basic sciences. even all carribean graduates who is entering clinicals here they have to pass the MLE step 1. the reason i am sending to india for basic sciences our indian medical education is strong. i am trying Mangalore KMC college, PSG medical coimbatore. any advice or suggestion please.
because sh is doing her clinicals here so it is for her to get match.
thanks,
sam

Your idea, frankly, sounds exceedingly bad.

ANY transfer between medical schools should be avoided, with the sole exception of transfering into an accredited US school (which is very hard to do).
Furthermore, while I'm sure that the best medical schools in India are very good, they're geared towards training doctors for the Indian medical system (which is based on the UK system, not the US).

While there's no doubt that basic sciences are better at many Indian schools compared to the offshore Carib. schools, the offshore schools are specifically geared towards training for the US system.
Obviously, there IS a stigma coming from the Carib., and the majority of the schools are money-making entities, like Ross, which is owned by the publicly listed Devry Corp. Their attrition is also pretty significant. However, it IS possible to get a (less/non-competitive) residency coming from the Carib.

In terms of getting a full degree in India, that could perhaps provide better training (though I'm not that familiar with Indian med schools), and I wonder if it isn't possible to take US rotations during final year?

However, since you and your family are US citizens, I assume that your daughter was brought up in the US. Do you even know if she likes to/can cope with going back to India for 2-4 years, solely to get a medical degree she's not qualified to get in the US?

Parents taking an interest in their children's education is good. However, as other posters have said, it's sadly all too often seen that parents pressure children into taking a "respected" degree like medicine. Bear in mind that:
A) She's NOT qualified to enter a US medical school with her numbers.
B) She WILL have a hard time getting a residency in the speciality and/or location of her choice, if she holds a Carib. or Indian degree.
C) She WILL have to spend several years outside the US, solely to get her degree.

Based on the above, I think both you and your daughter should think long and hard if it's really worth it. Yes, it can be done. But the cost, not only financially, will inevitably be high.

Skip Intro · Mar 20, 2005

f_w said:
IMHO you are better off going to a reputable indian medschool rather than one of the commercial rackets in the caribbean.

The general assumption is that there is a competitive selection process to get into medschool in most countries. The only selection criterion for the caribbean outfits seems to be rejection from US medical and osteopathic schools.
That said, I have worked with well trained physicians from most of the caribbean schools at one time or another. A select few where complete tools and a menace to their patients but that is surely not unique to this type of school.

The "general assumption" by who? You?

I am going to soon graduate from "one of the commercial rackets in the caribbean" and I just landed a position in Anesthesiology starting in July 2006 at a medical university in the northeast. Most of my graduating colleagues got spots where they wanted. Very few had to scramble, and those who did also got positions.

The reality is that most of the graduates from foreign medical schools, especially if you don't have a visa or are not a permanent U.S. resident (either citizen or resident alien) are going to have a really hard time coming back to the U.S. for residency training. If you go to a completely unknown school somewhere else in the world, even as a U.S. citizen, you are going to have a tough time coming back as well. Don't believe me? Compare the name and number of foreign schools on residency program lists (of those who are available) to see. You're going to see more graduates from Ross and SGU than you will from other foreign schools, UNLESS you look at community or city-based programs with no close, direct affiliation with a U.S. medical school and located in a crappy part of some major city.

The fact is that most program directors know that the vast majority of students who go to the Caribbean, and survive it, are highly motivated students who are willing to go the extra mile and endure a lot of hardship to get their degree. That's how bad these students want it. These PDs who "get it" will continue to interview qualified applicants from Carib schools that have a solid track record of producing strong graduates. Now, if you want to take the risk of becoming just some other "Joe Blow" who went to some unheard-of medical school in Uniqueistan, my bet is that you're going to have a very hard time getting noticed on the interview trail unless your board scores are 260+, you've published in JAMA, or you otherwise walk on water.

Long story short, I think it's your assumptions that need a reality check.

-Skip

Skip Intro · Mar 20, 2005

PathOne said:
Their attrition is also pretty significant. However, it IS possible to get a (less/non-competitive) residency coming from the Carib.

Just FYI...

It is also possible to get a competitive residency at a strong U.S. medical university. I'm living proof.

-Skip

Santiago · Mar 20, 2005

"The fact is that most program directors know that the vast majority of students who go to the Caribbean, and survive it, are highly motivated students who are willing to go the extra mile and endure a lot of hardship to get their degree. That's how bad these students want it. "

Now you are making assumptions.

This may be right or wrong..But here's what is the GENERAL BELEIF regarding caribbean grads..

1) They could not get into US med schools...you tell me why??
2) Some esp Indian immigrants send their kids to save money..
3) Finally, there are a few people who wanted to go to caribbean? Inspite of knowing its gonna bite them back when they apply for residency later on..

To the original OP, try to get her in a US Med school .

If she can't get into..then try to get her as many US rotations as possible irrespective of wherever she schools..

GL
PS- Skip, yop are a smart fella...I believe you would have got Gas irrespective of wherever you did your schooling..Don'y give too much credit to your school..Lol

nascarmedc · Mar 20, 2005

IMGDoc2b said:
i have to disagree..

I matched, as well (actually, I prematched at my top choice), but it is still easier in the long run for a US citizen to get a good residency by going to a US med school - especially if the person is young and right out of college.

If the Caribbean is the only option, go to a school like SGU, Saba, Ross, AUC which are looked upon more favorably and have established track records of producing competent physicians.

Congrats to all the US citizen IMG's who matched this year. Let's get out there and prove that we are as competent as our US med school graduate colleagues!

PathOne · Mar 20, 2005

Skip Intro said:
Just FYI...

It is also possible to get a competitive residency at a strong U.S. medical university. I'm living proof.

-Skip

Of course it's in theory possible to match into ANY residency, even as a IMG. And yes, some Carib. grads do match into "competitive" residencies like aneth. and rads. However, I really can't remember hearing of Carib. grads for the MOST competitive residencies, like Derm and Plastics. Generally, the very few IMG's that match into derm are almost invariably foreign nationals from the best schools in their home countries (Germany, Hungary, sometimes China), who usually have previous derm experience and very strong research backgrounds.

Also, the fact that there's more Carib. grads in US residencies compared to grads from other foreign schools doesn't really tell you anything about the quality (or percived quality) of the medical training. After all, the Carib. schools are DESIGNED to get US citizens back to the US, attached to an MD degree. The Charite Berlins, Oxfords and Karolinska Insitutes of the world wasn't exactly based on that purpose, so it should be fairly obvious that fewer grads from those schools even WANT to come to the US. However, for anyone to claim that the Carib. outfits provide better physician training than established national (US or Int.) schools will certainly be a stretch - to put it mildly.

Bottom line still is that if you graduate from a non-US/Canadian medical school, you'd need to bring something extra to the table, one way or another, to beat out a AMG applying for the same position. If you can't do that, you'll be looking at the noncompetitive residencies in terms of specialty and/or location.

In regard to the post about Indian/Carib schools, a rough guide would be:
Carib:
+ Trains directly for USMLE/US med system, US clinical rotations.
- Applicants who, for one reason or another, couldn't get accepted into an accredited US school.

International:
+ Unlike the Carib. schools, quality int. schools are research based, can academically be equal to, or sometimes better, than US schools.
- Lack of exposure to US medical system. Visa issues for graduates.

retroviridae · Mar 20, 2005

Adam_K said:
I think that you should ask yourself a couple of questions.

Why are you posting this instead of her?

Are you absolutely certain that she wants to go to medical school?

Why are her grades so poor?

I ask this for a number of reasons. A number of my classmates were sent to medical school by their parents. A couple were even the sons/daughters of doctors. Throughout med school they were miserable. But because of cultural reasons they could not tell their parents that they did not want to be there. Few of them bothered to get a residency.

I think that is pretty sad. But I have seen worse. I was working on the psychiatric emergency service recently where I saw a young lady who was also trying to get into medical school. She was a second generation Asian-American. Her academic load was simply too much for her. Unfortunately the only way she could communicate this with her parents was through the medical staff after being admitted with catatonic depression.

Even worse a brother of a classmate of mine decided that facing his parents after failing an admissions test was a worse fate for him than jumping out of an eighth story window. I wonder how his parents felt.

So before you think about 'sending' your daughter anywhere you should probably try talk to her to find out what she really wants to do.

I second this. I know many Indian parents who send their kids to India because they (the parents) want their kids to be MDs. Usually, the kids are not academic heavyweights, and hence they sink in India (remember, the Indian system is biased to fail you in an exam, while the US system is biased to pass you ... and when you are up against India's best, it is not easy to convince the examiner that you deserve to pass). Even if they are very smart, if they don't want to do medicine, they tend not to study. They just stay in India for years and years.

Many Indian parents also send their kids to India to get them away from the corrupting influences of American college life. Well, parents, once your children are 10,000 miles away from your controlling influences they tend to go WILD (and hence don't study and stay in India for years and years).

If your daughter really wants medicine (there really are several other viable careers out there) and can't get into a US Med school after taking Kaplan and retaking the MCAT, after trying a research position, after trying a masters or post-bacc course, then give the Carib or India a try.

As an aside, where did this idea of studying 1 year or 6 months for the USMLEs come from???? Really, far far less is necessary to get a great score.

f_w · Mar 20, 2005

>The "general assumption" by who? You?

Well, I am working in the US medical system for a couple of years now, and this is the attitude I have frequently encountered.

> Most of my graduating colleagues got spots where they wanted.
> Very few had to scramble, and those who did also got positions.

As I pointed out in my post, getting into a residency is one step of many. And for a number of the steps ahead, your primary medical education can return to bite you. Of course, your schools administration won't tell you about the struggles of their graduates to obtain medical licensure, but who cares, everybody matched !

>The reality is that most of the graduates from foreign medical
> schools, especially if you don't have a visa or are not a permanent U.S.

You are missing the point here. This was not about non-citizens. The question at hand was whether it makes more sense for a US-citizen to go to a caribbean vs in this case indian medical school.

> You're going to see more graduates from Ross and SGU than you
> will from other foreign schools,

As PathOne pointed out, this type of anecdotal pseudo statistic is pretty meaningless.

One problem is that we are talking about two different things here. You are talking about some fly by night commercial outfit in Uniquistan, I am talking about a 'real' overseas medical school. This is not necessarily limited to the well known schools PathOne mentioned, but rather most regular overseas schools. To be considered 'real' in my book, a school should entail the following features:
- part of a bona fide research university in that country (not 'affiliated' with some entity in a third country)
- graduate mainly citizens of that country to practice locally
- of course, be accredited by that countries goverment or medical board to qualify graduates for local licensure

I stand by my assessment that a :
- US citizen or permanent resident
- with identical competitive USMLE scores
- graduate of a 'real' overseas medical school

will beat a carib graduate in the game for a residency interview in a competitive specialty any day.

DasN · Mar 20, 2005

tmudi said:
Hi,
this is for my daughter. we are citizens. my daughter is her undergraduation 4th year. 3.0/27mcat. very hard to get into medical college with those scores.
My plan is sending her back to india for basic sciences(which is 2 and half yrs) and tr. to carribean schools for clinicals(which is basicall in USA). they have the tr. policy. only condition she has to get MLE 200 score after her basic sciences. even all carribean graduates who is entering clinicals here they have to pass the MLE step 1. the reason i am sending to india for basic sciences our indian medical education is strong. i am trying Mangalore KMC college, PSG medical coimbatore. any advice or suggestion please.
because sh is doing her clinicals here so it is for her to get match.
thanks,
sam

Maybe she should try to go for an osteopathic school D.O. Ive heard of kids getting into some of these places with MCATS in the low to mid 20's!!! and this was last year. yeah she would have to be content with a D.O. degree (there really is no diffrence) but she wouldn't have to put up with a lot of trouble trying to get back to the US and not have to deal with alot of Anti IMG people. Which if you read this thread there are many of them with strong opinions and are not afraid to voice them. Either way I wish you and your daughter the best of luck.

PathOne · Mar 21, 2005

Would agree with DasN.
Personally, if I was to apply for med school today, my order of preference would be:
1. US MD school
2. US DO school (some have DO as first choice - fine by me)
3. Get a postbac/Masters/retake MCAT, depending on weaknesses in my cv, and reapply to US MD/DO school.
4. Foreign school - the vast majority of US applicants obviously opt for the Carib. schools.

If I went to any foreign school, with the intention of working in the US, I would definitely work hard to get good US clinical rotations. If trying to land a competitive residency, I'd also prepare for the option of doing US-based research in my chosen specialty to improve my chances.

Miklos · Mar 21, 2005

f_w said:
>The "general assumption" by who? You?

Well, I am working in the US medical system for a couple of years now, and this is the attitude I have frequently encountered.

> Most of my graduating colleagues got spots where they wanted.
> Very few had to scramble, and those who did also got positions.

As I pointed out in my post, getting into a residency is one step of many. And for a number of the steps ahead, your primary medical education can return to bite you. Of course, your schools administration won't tell you about the struggles of their graduates to obtain medical licensure, but who cares, everybody matched !

>The reality is that most of the graduates from foreign medical
> schools, especially if you don't have a visa or are not a permanent U.S.

You are missing the point here. This was not about non-citizens. The question at hand was whether it makes more sense for a US-citizen to go to a caribbean vs in this case indian medical school.

> You're going to see more graduates from Ross and SGU than you
> will from other foreign schools,

As PathOne pointed out, this type of anecdotal pseudo statistic is pretty meaningless.

One problem is that we are talking about two different things here. You are talking about some fly by night commercial outfit in Uniquistan, I am talking about a 'real' overseas medical school. This is not necessarily limited to the well known schools PathOne mentioned, but rather most regular overseas schools. To be considered 'real' in my book, a school should entail the following features:
- part of a bona fide research university in that country (not 'affiliated' with some entity in a third country)
- graduate mainly citizens of that country to practice locally
- of course, be accredited by that countries goverment or medical board to qualify graduates for local licensure

I stand by my assessment that a :
- US citizen or permanent resident
- with identical competitive USMLE scores
- graduate of a 'real' overseas medical school

will beat a carib graduate in the game for a residency interview in a competitive specialty any day.

f_w, while Skip may point to a school in Uniquistan (I'm not certain this is the case), you are grouping all Carib. schools into a single basket.

I think that there are a couple that stand out from the rest (SGU, Ross, AUC). One of the reasons these stand out is that in addition to having very few problems with licensure, they deliver residencies to their grads. In part, because they get their students/grads US clinical experience (along with US LoRs).

The American who goes to a real 'bricks and mortar' school abroad outside of the Carib. who completes his/her rotations exclusively abroad is quite simply disadvantaged when it comes to competing with the Carib grad who did his homework from one of the schools I mentioned above. Routinely, even in fields such as Psych, one year U.S. clinical experience requirements are posted for residency programs. How is the US grad who goes "foreign" going to complete this requirement?

Miklos

cad_15 · Mar 22, 2005

I would recommend that you look into DO school, if she is interrested.

tmudi said:
Hi,
this is for my daughter. we are citizens. my daughter is her undergraduation 4th year. 3.0/27mcat. very hard to get into medical college with those scores.
My plan is sending her back to india for basic sciences(which is 2 and half yrs) and tr. to carribean schools for clinicals(which is basicall in USA). they have the tr. policy. only condition she has to get MLE 200 score after her basic sciences. even all carribean graduates who is entering clinicals here they have to pass the MLE step 1. the reason i am sending to india for basic sciences our indian medical education is strong. i am trying Mangalore KMC college, PSG medical coimbatore. any advice or suggestion please.
because sh is doing her clinicals here so it is for her to get match.
thanks,
sam

f_w · Mar 22, 2005

> I think that there are a couple that stand out from the rest
> (SGU, Ross, AUC).

Actually, the people I know who run into brickwall after brickwall with the state medical boards are Ross and SGU graduates. It really stinks if you shelled out large amounts of money on your medical education, and in the end you are limited to the one state that you could convince to give you a medical license.

> The American who goes to a real 'bricks and mortar' school abroad
> outside of the Carib. who completes his/her rotations exclusively
> abroad is

That is why it makes sense to come back to the states for electives and clerkship rotations if you attend a real medical school overseas. If you are a citizen and you have a network here, you shouldn't have problems to make the necessary contacts.

Every couple of months we have medstudents (citizens and noncitizens) who rotate with us from various 'brick and mortar' medical schools around the world. They don't necessarily come from the known 'top-schools' in their country, the key requirements are the necessary language skills and good standing with their home institution. Most US medschools will allow you to come for rotations if you come from a real overseas medical school. Maybe you have to pay tuition for that semester (some of the noncitizens from developing countries get it waived). But as a result you get some of the the oh so prized 'US experience' and in addition LOR's from physicians in US academia.

Miklos · Mar 22, 2005

f_w said:
Actually, the people I know who run into brickwall after brickwall with the state medical boards are Ross and SGU graduates. It really stinks if you shelled out large amounts of money on your medical education, and in the end you are limited to the one state that you could convince to give you a medical license.

In which states do Ross and SGU grads have difficulties?

f_w said:
> The American who goes to a real 'bricks and mortar' school abroad
> outside of the Carib. who completes his/her rotations exclusively
> abroad is

That is why it makes sense to come back to the states for electives and clerkship rotations if you attend a real medical school overseas. If you are a citizen and you have a network here, you shouldn't have problems to make the necessary contacts.

Every couple of months we have medstudents (citizens and noncitizens) who rotate with us from various 'brick and mortar' medical schools around the world. They don't necessarily come from the known 'top-schools' in their country, the key requirements are the necessary language skills and good standing with their home institution. Most US medschools will allow you to come for rotations if you come from a real overseas medical school. Maybe you have to pay tuition for that semester (some of the noncitizens from developing countries get it waived). But as a result you get some of the the oh so prized 'US experience' and in addition LOR's from physicians in US academia.

I am happy to hear that your institution allows foreign medical students to rotate there. Do you mind disclosing exactly where you are, so I can look up the requirements? (And how much your institution charges for a semester?)

The reason I ask, is that foreign students from 'brick and mortar' schools (which do not arrange rotations for them in the US) often have significant difficulty getting rotations independently.

Getting malpractice insurance to cover those rotations independently is near impossible. [Before you mention it, I know that some schools in certain countries (e.g. Germany) offer coverage. Also some medical defense associations offer this to students in some countries for a nominal charge (e.g. UK).]

Also, how are you going to network from outside the system?

I think that for these reasons your argument falls apart.

Miklos

f_w · Mar 22, 2005

One was a Ross graduate who couldn't get licensed in TX (bye bye fellowship). Later he had trouble to get his paperwork through somewhere in the midwest, they called him for an interview with the full board and made him submit detailed transscripts just to turn him down later.

The other one, an SGU graduate had already entered into a contract to buy a house in Iowa when she found out that the medboard wouldn't license her. This decision didn't come until weeks before she was supposed to start to work with a practice there (It took her about two years to extricate herself from the tangle of lawsuits this fiasco caused).

Both of these people had 'no problems' getting the residency of their choice

)

Skip Intro · Mar 22, 2005

f_w said:
One was a Ross graduate who couldn't get licensed in TX (bye bye fellowship). Later he had trouble to get his paperwork through somewhere in the midwest, they called him for an interview with the full board and made him submit detailed transscripts just to turn him down later.

Okay. First, Texas. Why don't you check out where Dr. Pahlavan went to school...

http://public2.bcm.tmc.edu/pediatrics/index.cfm?Realm=99992442&This_Template=pedi_content_10.cfm

Okay, that's just a regular old residency appointment. I'll grant you that. You alluded to fellowships. So, how about we look up and see where Dr. Thu-Tam Thi Huynh is doing a fellowship...

http://geriatrics.uthscsa.edu/educational/fellows/past_current_fellows.htm

Isn't that a part of this U.S. medical university system?

And, here's the latest and best information (something you seem to have a lot of trouble with) on the whole Texas matter directly from the school:

http://www.rossmed.edu.dm/Current_N...ates_may_/ross_university_graduates_may_.html

f_w said:
The other one, an SGU graduate had already entered into a contract to buy a house in Iowa when she found out that the medboard wouldn't license her. This decision didn't come until weeks before she was supposed to start to work with a practice there (It took her about two years to extricate herself from the tangle of lawsuits this fiasco caused).

Okay, now Iowa...

http://www.int-med.uiowa.edu/TrainingPrograms/Allergy/Fellows.html#Fourth

Hmmm... guess your friend got screwed out of her private practice position, huh? After all, Dr. Doshi (the physician in the link) is in a fellowship (i.e., teaching faculty) at U of Iowa, isn't he? So, tell us again, who exactly was this person you referred to?

Please tell us, were these supposed problems really related to the schools these "acquaintances" of yours graduated from? Maybe it was that they had something wrong with their particular credentials? Or, perhaps these are just a couple of tall tales? None of us reading this can really tell since you don't provide any way for us to verify what you're saying. Why should we believe you? Because you tell a good story? (If that's all this is - some cock-and-bull story - then please just butt out. We have enough vicious, mean-spirited, and untrue rumors to handle without some forum interloper spreading more misinformation.)

f_w said:
Both of these people had 'no problems' getting the residency of their choice )

You love to sling anecdotes and bad analogies around without providing any credible proof or otherwise supporting your assertions, don't you?

I tell you what, I'm going for residency in one of the toughest states in which to get even just a training license. I'll keep you posted how it goes... but, trust me, I'm not worried, especially since a Ross grad was the Chief Resident in that same program a few years ago.

-Skip

ALMD2B · Mar 22, 2005

Further proof...

I know of 2 Ross graduates this year, who matched in Texas. The details will follow when Ross posts the match list. (Waco and Austin, FP and Gen. Surg)

A.

f_w · Mar 22, 2005

Sorry that the experience of my friends doesn't fit into what you delude yourself into being true :-((

I didn't say that you can't get licensed in these states, I am just reporting on the experiences of people I know. None of them had individual impediments to receiving a license.

Again, I am not talking about GME permits or matching into a residency. I am talking about obtaining a 'license to practice as physician and surgeon', the type of license you will need for higher level training posts or private practice.

Oh, by the way. If you get a faculty position with UIowa, the Iowa medical board will at times license FMG's who don't even have the USMLE (e.g. if they have AMC or a UK college exam). Independent private practice is different.

Skip Intro · Mar 22, 2005

f_w said:
Sorry that the experience of my friends doesn't fit into what you delude yourself into being true :-((

Dude. Do you seriously have a reading comprehension problem? Seriously??!? I posted several links completely refuting the specific points you made with examples of graduated physicians in positions that demonstrate one can achieve what you claimed one can't. You have posted nothing but personal, unsupported anecdote.

Who's deluded?

f_w said:
I didn't say that you can't get licensed in these states, I am just reporting on the experiences of people I know. None of them had individual impediments to receiving a license.

Then, perhaps you can invite them to come here or somehow post their names so that we can verify what you said. Why should we take your word when I've posted - clearly - examples of people who refute your anecdotes? If what you say is true, there must be some reason these people couldn't get a license that has nothing to do with the school they attended. Perhaps you can be more specific and, at the very least, share the specifics of why they didn't get their licenses - if what you say is actually true - rather than confer that it had something to do with the school they chose, especially since I've clearly demonstrated that this is not the factor. If you do this, this could help others avoid the same mistakes. Or, are you just here with some other agenda? Why don't you come clean instead of attempting to spread uncorroborated misinformation?

f_w said:
Again, I am not talking about GME permits or matching into a residency. I am talking about obtaining a 'license to practice as physician and surgeon', the type of license you will need for higher level training posts or private practice.

Ummm... I think you need to have a full, unrestricted medical license to be clinical teaching faculty at a U.S. medical university! Do you even remotely understand the facts underlying the subject matter on which you are attempting to contribute and opine? Because, right now it really doesn't appear so.

-Skip

f_w · Mar 22, 2005

> ... I think you need to have a full, unrestricted medical license to
> be teaching faculty at a university!

Actually, you don't. Some states, including Iowa, have a 'special license' for faculty members at the states universities. If someone doesn't fulfill the formal requirements (e.g. USMLE or ECFMG certificate) for regular licensure but is accomplished otherwise, he can get a license limited to somewhat supervised practice within the university.

But how could you know that ?

DasN · Mar 22, 2005

why would anyone want to go to Iowa or Texas anyway? Those states suck. Ive been to both and born in one of them and I think if you asked anyone where a place to move would be Im pretty sure Texas and definately Iowa would not be on the top of the list

Skip Intro · Mar 22, 2005

f_w said:
Actually, you don't. Some states, including Iowa, have a 'special license' for faculty members at the states universities. If someone doesn't fulfill the formal requirements (e.g. USMLE or ECFMG certificate) for regular licensure but is accomplished otherwise, he can get a license limited to somewhat supervised practice within the university.

But how could you know that ?

Here's the Iowa state board of medicine's rules:

http://www.legis.state.ia.us/Rules/Current/iac/653iac/6539/6539.pdf

Show me anywhere in that document where it says that (1) someone cannot get a permanent medical license if they are Caribbean graduate, and (2) where you are allowed to be appointed permanent faculty without having a full, unrestricted medical license.

Then, I want you to read Section 10.4(1)a on page 7 of this document:

http://www.legis.state.ia.us/Rules/Current/iac/653iac/65310/65310.pdf

Or, maybe you just need to see a licensed physician in private practice in Iowa who graduated from St. George's?

Sharmini Rasakulasuriar, M.D. is presently working for a Trimark Physicians Group in Humboldt, Iowa. He started practice in September of 1999. Dr. Rasakulasuriar is a graduate of the Bridgeport Hospital in combined Internal Medicine and Pediatrics residency program at a program affiliated with the Yale University Hospital in New Haven Connecticut. He obtained his medical degree from St. George's University School of Medicine in Grenada. He is board certified in Internal Medicine and Pediatrics. He is certified by ACLS, BLS, PALS, NALS, ECFEG. He is a member of the American College of Physicians, American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Medical Association.

http://www.uihealthcare.com/depts/med/pediatrics/AAP/NewsNov1999/NewProvidersNov99.html

Go to this page, type in his last name and tell me what comes up:

http://www.docboard.org/ia/df/name.htm

Want to keep going? Do you like looking stupid?

-Skip

f_w · Mar 23, 2005

Don't know whether there is a time limitation on the 'Iowa special license'.

There is guy at UIowa who is division head on a special license. He never did a day of residency in the US and I don't think he is in a rush to sit for the USMLE's.

Where did I say that it is impossible for a SGU graduate to get a license in Iowa ? Back then, the denial stated that the medical board doesn't consider SGU as a qualifying school, maybe they have changed their mind in the meantime.

Oh,
I know plenty of FMG's who are not citizens and went to real medical schools back home, none of them hat trouble getting their licenses (exception CA). Out of the couple of caribbean graduates, the two that I mentioned had trouble getting licensed. Is it anecdotal: yes. Is it a $50k anecdote my friend could have done without: Yes.

You get way too worked up over this.

Miklos · Mar 23, 2005

f_w said:
Where did I say that it is impossible for a SGU graduate to get a license in Iowa ? Back then, the denial stated that the medical board doesn't consider SGU as a qualifying school, maybe they have changed their mind in the meantime.

Oh,
I know plenty of FMG's who are not citizens and went to real medical schools back home, none of them hat trouble getting their licenses (exception CA). Out of the couple of caribbean graduates, the two that I mentioned had trouble getting licensed. Is it anecdotal: yes. Is it a $50k anecdote my friend could have done without: Yes.

You get way too worked up over this.

f_w earlier said:
Actually, the people I know who run into brickwall after brickwall with the state medical boards are Ross and SGU graduates. It really stinks if you shelled out large amounts of money on your medical education, and in the end you are limited to the one state that you could convince to give you a medical license.

What gives?

Whenever Skip or someone else challenges you to provide concrete information to support your assertions, either on this or the AAIMG thread, you resort either to the style over substance argument or simply ignore it.

IMO, you are either dangerously misinformed or simply a troll.

It would be far more honest for you simply to state: "I don't care for Carib. schools, because they are commercial rackets, etc..." instead of making specious arguments without any basis.

f_w · Mar 23, 2005

Again, I am sorry that reality collided with your dreams.

Skip Intro · Mar 23, 2005

Thank you, Miklos.

f_w said:
You get way too worked up over this.

Who's getting "worked up"? I'm just pointing out your complete lack of credibility and basic grasp of the facts. It's because of people like you on forums such as this - people who are misinformed and have an agenda, and post unsupported anecdote giving themselves an air of credibility - that others get scared away from a legitimate alternate path to becoming a doctor.

Seeing as you're someone who freely admits that he doesn't know anything about the subject matter - and have clearly demonstrated that to be the case thus far, how about you just don't comment at all.

-Skip

f_w · Mar 23, 2005

What are you gaining from denying that carib graduates run into licensing issues ?

What 'proof' do you want me to post ? The names of the people involved (they are happy that they could put this behind themselves and settled into decent jobs in the state they could get licensed in) Their transscripts ? A jpeg copy of the denial letter ?

Skip Intro · Mar 23, 2005

f_w said:
What are you gaining from denying that carib graduates run into licensing issues ?

What are you gaining by insinuating that, as a rule, they do? I'm just asking you to provide proof. You're making the claims here. Prove them. Personally, I know of zero Ross grads that have been denied a license in whatever state they've matched into a residency program.

f_w said:
What 'proof' do you want me to post ? The names of the people involved (they are happy that they could put this behind themselves and settled into decent jobs in the state they could get licensed in) Their transscripts ? A jpeg copy of the denial letter ?

The latter would do just fine. You can even blot out their names to protect their anonymity if you want. But, I want to be sure that it's clear that the information on why they were denied remains clear. If you can do that, that'd be great. Thanks for offering!

-Skip

Skip Intro · Mar 23, 2005

Geez, I was so busy dissecting other parts of your fascinating posts that I almost missed this...

f_w said:
There is guy at UIowa who is division head on a special license. He never did a day of residency in the US and I don't think he is in a rush to sit for the USMLE's.

Great! Provide his name. I'm sure he won't mind, especially since he's a Division Head and part of a public institution. We'll look it up online and see the exact status of his medical license as well as the nature of his appointment at UIowa.

Just a name. That's all we'll need. Thanks in advance for cooperating! I'll be waiting with 'bated breath for you to answer.

Or, is now really the time that I should finally go get my boots and shovel?

-Skip

f_w · Mar 23, 2005

> Just a name. That's all we'll need. Thanks in advance for cooperating!
> I'll be waiting with 'bated breath for you to answer.

Jafar Golzarian, MD

This is his division:
http://radiology.uiowa.edu/ClinDiv/Interventionalrad.htm

To make it easy for you, here is a link to his CV:

http://www.radiology.uiowa.edu/Personnel/DiagRadMDs/GolzarianJafarCV_05-04.pdf

And here is a cut and paste of his entry on the medical board database:

Iowa Board of Medical Examiners Search Results

Medical License Verification
Licensee Name Golzarian, Jafar Golzarian, Jafar Birth Year 1963
Licensee Number License Type License Status License Issue Date License Expiration Date
SP-150 Special Active 10/30/2002 10/30/2005
Speciality 1 Not specified Speciality 2 Not specified
Address 1 UIHC Dept. of Radiology
Address 2 200 Hawkins Dr. 3970 JPP
City State Zip Iowa City IA 52242
Diploma From Faculty Of Medicine And Pharmacy Free University Of Brussels Diploma Year 1988

Oh, by the way, Dr Sun, one of the other IR's has the same deal since 1993

)
Or why don't you check the 'new faculty' page (8) in of their monthly department news:
http://www.radiology.uiowa.edu/news/RadUpdate_01-05.pdf

Sorry to break it to you, but they even have a radiology first year from Pakistan

)

Miklos · Mar 24, 2005

Skip,

Believe it or not, f_w has a very valid point. It is one that most medical boards do not like to advertise.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/10257.html

However, many of them provide 'special' or 'limited' licenses for faculty members and even exempt them from taking the USMLE for a number of years. In fact, last year I saw an article about a French Pediatric Cardiologist in Colorado who had not been able to pass his USMLEs; as a result, the Colorado legislature wanted to change the requirements.

As soon as I find the article, I'll post it.

Miklos

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