Kinetics..

pharmagirl said:

I'll be taking my first Kinetics course next semester and I was wondering if you guys could tell me what its like (at your schools).

I've heard its primarily math and being able to work equations. So many people I talk to have a lot of trouble with it and I'm wondering what the primary factor that makes it so difficult.

Also, can anyone recommend a really good kinetics book?

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It's mostly math, but there are concepts to learn. Many people struggled with it at UF. I got a C my first semester but pulled it up to an A second semester. We had two different books.

1st semester we used Concepts Clinical Pharmacokinetics by DiPiro. It was pretty basic and explained concepts. The book for 2nd semester dealt with the kinetics of individual drugs. It also had some good introductory chapters. It was called Basic Clinical Pharmacokinetics by Winter.

I preferred the Winter book. The students who struggled preferred the DiPiro book. I found it too basic because it told you how to plot graphs using log scale along with the basics of kinetics. I understand math, I just wanted to know specifics.

The reason I did poorly first semester is because there were more conceptual questions. The instructor was German and the questions were not clearly worded. The second semester also had a German instructor, but since it was almost 100% math, I was good to go.

The people who didn't do well were the same people who had trouble with pharmaceutical calculations during 1st year. I think they are just not really good at math. For some problems, you have to take the derivative and if you don't remember your calculus, you won't see the solution.

pharmagirl said:

I'll be taking my first Kinetics course next semester and I was wondering if you guys could tell me what its like (at your schools).

I've heard its primarily math and being able to work equations. So many people I talk to have a lot of trouble with it and I'm wondering what the primary factor that makes it so difficult.

Also, can anyone recommend a really good kinetics book?

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Don't listen to dgroulx, she is much smarter than most, if not all, of us on this forum. Ain't that right Dana?

If you're average like me, you will come to know Kinetics well. I hated every minute of it. After being on rotations, I see it's importance and I got better at it. However, it required a lot of time and effort to get thru the course. We use the Winter book as well. I feel it is better than Bauer's book. Bauer gives you 30 different ways to answer a question which can get confusing quickly. I hope this helps!

i actually didn't mind it all that much but i have always been a math person....

we also used the winter book.... and it was very helpful in my opinion

its basically a plug and chug type thing... if you know which equation to use you're alright

Take your year's worth of PK.. then come back and read my post when you start practicing.

PK nothing more than learning that our body is nothing more than a Bucket with a hole..and you fill it..and it leaks out. The hole of course is either Renal system or Hepatic System.

The Size of Bucket = Volume of Distribution = Vd.

ex. Vd of Vancomycin = 0.76L/kg.

so if patient weighs 70kg non-obese... Then Vanc VD = 53.2 liters.

So, if patient receives 1000mg loading dose, the Cmax (max concetration) =

1000mg/53.2liters = 18.8mg/Liter = 18.8ug/ml.

T1/2 rule of thumb for older folks = 9 to 12 hours therefore after the loading dose, in 12 hours, due to the hole in the bucket... the serum level will be 9.4ug/ml then in 24 hours, the conc = 4.7ug/ml.

If pt receives another 1000mg Vanc, then the conc = 4.7ug/ml + 18.8ug/ml = 23.5ug/ml.

Blah..blah..blah..

Or, just plug the numbers in the PK computer software...and bam..u get the numbers you want.

Oh..forgot about

t1/2 = 0.693/Ke

Ke = ln(cmax - cmin)/(t2-t1)

That's all u need to know.

ZpackSux said:

Take your year's worth of PK.. then come back and read my post when you start practicing.

PK nothing more than learning that our body is nothing more than a Bucket with a hole..and you fill it..and it leaks out. The hole of course is either Renal system or Hepatic System.

The Size of Bucket = Volume of Distribution = Vd.

ex. Vd of Vancomycin = 0.76L/kg.

so if patient weighs 70kg non-obese... Then Vanc VD = 53.2 liters.

So, if patient receives 1000mg loading dose, the Cmax (max concetration) =

1000mg/53.2liters = 18.8mg/Liter = 18.8ug/ml.

T1/2 rule of thumb for older folks = 9 to 12 hours therefore after the loading dose, in 12 hours, due to the hole in the bucket... the serum level will be 9.4ug/ml then in 24 hours, the conc = 4.7ug/ml.

If pt receives another 1000mg Vanc, then the conc = 4.7ug/ml + 18.8ug/ml = 23.5ug/ml.

Blah..blah..blah..

Or, just plug the numbers in the PK computer software...and bam..u get the numbers you want.

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Wow...this post is enlightening. Where were you a few months ago?

You guys crack me up.

My profs used their own coursepaks too.

I hate to break it to you but there are waaay more holes than that, Z.

bananaface said:

You guys crack me up.

My profs used their own coursepaks too.

I hate to break it to you but there are waaay more holes than that, Z.

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Talk is cheap.. post pictures of holes..

Caverject said:

Wow...this post is enlightening. Where were you a few months ago?

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u like?

ZpackSux said:

Talk is cheap.. post pictures of holes..

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I love Lysosomes...Nice Hole!

bananaface said:

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ZpackSux said:

I love Lysosomes...Nice Hole!

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Well, what did you expect me to post? *looks around*

bananaface said:

Well, what did you expect me to post? *looks around*

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waaay more holes than that...

lets see...if I remember correctly our kinetics stuff @ PCP is comprised of two different semester. The first one is to learnt he basics such as one&two compartment data via IV bolus or infusion or oral route. The second semster (which I didnt take yet) is basically the repeat of the first with an emphasis on clincal conditions. i.e. dosing of vancomycin and how to monitor the trough...

uspcommuter said:

lets see...if I remember correctly our kinetics stuff @ PCP is comprised of two different semester. The first one is to learnt he basics such as one&two compartment data via IV bolus or infusion or oral route. The second semster (which I didnt take yet) is basically the repeat of the first with an emphasis on clincal conditions. i.e. dosing of vancomycin and how to monitor the trough...

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Hmm...how about michelis-menten non-linear elimination? Enzymatic saturation...I love that stuff.. ok..not really.

ZpackSux said:

Hmm...how about michelis-menten non-linear elimination? Enzymatic saturation...I love that stuff.. ok..not really.

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Say hello to SDN's biggest nerd!

bananaface said:

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I think he meant the big one in your head

Say hello to SDN's biggest nerd!

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I'm little concerned about myself...it's been 13 years since PK... and I still remember this crap... Can't get it out of my head...

Caverject said:

I think he meant the big one in your head

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No I didn't..

ZpackSux said:

I'm little concerned about myself...it's been 13 years since PK... and I still remember this crap... Can't get it out of my head...

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Sounds like a case of mental masterbation

Caverject said:

Sounds like a case of mental masterbation

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I haven't had one..but does it feel good?

Z pak hilarious bucket analogy.


the kinetics at my school is pretty easy. everything you need to know is in the handouts and its just math when you think about it. I think I went to a total of 2 lectures the whole quarter and still made a good grade.

ccpbruin said:

Z pak hilarious bucket analogy.


the kinetics at my school is pretty easy. everything you need to know is in the handouts and its just math when you think about it. I think I went to a total of 2 lectures the whole quarter and still made a good grade.

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what school r u going to ?

I doubt the winter book will give you the big picture but it will help you in your next quarter of kinetics. The book deals with kinetics of certain drugs mainly and not the concept of pharmacokinetics. Applied Biopharmaceutics &Pharmacokinetics by Shargel is decent, unlike his calculations book filled with errors. Also, the kinetics book by DiPiro discussed earlier in the thread is a worthless piece of crap. Don't waste your money on it like I did.

Worst. Class. Ever. Our prof was huge on concepts, not just equations and I hated every minute of that class. Having it at 8 am on Fridays didn't help either. The majority of people in my class did just fine, I am not sure why I struggled so much with it. I kept waiting to have an epiphany like I did in physics where all became crystal clear...never happened My advice is to work practice problems until you can do them in your sleep. Even though I barely passed the tests, I did well on the final and ended up with a B+ after busting my ass in preparation.

no recommendations on books, we had notes. Since our new illustrious dean is also an author, his book might soon become part of the required reading

Midwestern's (at Glendale) sucks royally, because the professor cannot perform basic math! I had her the first year, and she would make basic addition, subtraction, and algebraic mistakes. Out of ten questions on her final, four answers were actually clinically impossible (a calculated Vd of 0.234, a t1/2 of some 4 million years for a 2 compartment fast-equilibrium drug, a fosphenytoin dose that calculated to more than a five times overdose with the characteristics given, and I really can't remember the last one).

I heard from people from the later classes that Prof. Jordan's teaching ability hit rock bottom and started digging with experience. I personally can't stand either her or Susanna Wu-Pong from VCU who negligently graduated her.

By the way, I approve of the conceptual education more over math than the raw calculation, since almost all the calculations learned at the Pharm. D. level are wide estimations (wild guesses in phenytoin's cases sometimes) anyway. Most simple kinetic calculators can do the basic estimates, and the more complicated calculators can use the specialized equations for a tighter estimation. I don't really think that even the experts have time to manually solve the ODE or PDE forms of the nonlinear dosing drugs.

Oh and textbooks:
I'd get either Rowland or Winter for my clinical stuff.
I'd have access (not own unless desired) to Schoenwald and Bauer for the complex issues.
I'd sell my Shargel and Yu ASAP after class.
I would consult the hospital PK specialist if it was over my head and the calculation does not work out in clinical reality.

If I had problems with concepts, I'd get Birkett.


Bauer: OK for advanced study. A bit complex

Birkett: Easy read. Not too in depth though. For dummies.

Rowland: As good as Winter's for the mathematically inclined. Spends time on proofs. My favorite of the clinical books, although not the best clinical one for most.

Schoenwald: My favorite basic science PK book.

Shargel and Yu: Not very useful even at the graduate leveld PDE level mathematics. (Biased, Susanna Wu-Pong is someone I dislike.)

Welling or Smith: The best of the graduate texts. Uses ODE and PDE level mathematics and assumes knowledge of Runge-Kutta ODE solvers. Very, very technical.

Winter: Best of the clinical bunch of books. If nothing else, the first three chapters do a better job of explaining basic PK over Shargel and Yu.

My professor wrote a book too. His name is Notari. I haven't started the course yet (starts on Wed.), but we had him for part of the first year drug delivery systems course where we learned the basic kinetic stuff (e^-kt, half life, blah blah blah).

lord999 said:

Midwestern's (at Glendale) sucks royally, because the professor cannot perform basic math! I had her the first year, and she would make basic addition, subtraction, and algebraic mistakes. Out of ten questions on her final, four answers were actually clinically impossible (a calculated Vd of 0.234, a t1/2 of some 4 million years for a 2 compartment fast-equilibrium drug, a fosphenytoin dose that calculated to more than a five times overdose with the characteristics given, and I really can't remember the last one).

I heard from people from the later classes that Prof. Jordan's teaching ability hit rock bottom and started digging with experience. I personally can't stand either her or Susanna Wu-Pong from VCU who negligently graduated her.

By the way, I approve of the conceptual education more over math than the raw calculation, since almost all the calculations learned at the Pharm. D. level are wide estimations (wild guesses in phenytoin's cases sometimes) anyway. Most simple kinetic calculators can do the basic estimates, and the more complicated calculators can use the specialized equations for a tighter estimation. I don't really think that even the experts have time to manually solve the ODE or PDE forms of the nonlinear dosing drugs.

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Actually, she greatly redeemed herself this year. I had my reservations from past experience and Iwhat I had heard, but I (and others who I've spoken with) thought she did a good job teaching the class this quarter.

off2skl said:

Actually, she greatly redeemed herself this year. I had my reservations from past experience and Iwhat I had heard, but I (and others who I've spoken with) thought she did a good job teaching the class this quarter.

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I agree with you, she did a good job. Maybe it just took a few years for her to catch on to something that worked for her, but she did well last qtr.


I don't even know if there was a text book for PK @ MWU. I suggest buying no books for anything @ MWU becasue we get tested out of note packets and if you need to check the book for something, it is always on reserve or in the stacks @ the library. I have been suckered into buying a few books and have not used them yet. My Dipiro still has the shrink wrap on it. Glad I spent that 170 bucks.

Jeddevil said:

I don't even know if there was a text book for PK @ MWU. I suggest buying no books for anything @ MWU becasue we get tested out of note packets and if you need to check the book for something, it is always on reserve or in the stacks @ the library. I have been suckered into buying a few books and have not used them yet. My Dipiro still has the shrink wrap on it. Glad I spent that 170 bucks.

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I didn't use my DiPiro book too much during the first integrated sequences, but I did once we hit 4, 5, and 6. Then again during some of my SOAP notes for my rotations. So it wasn't a complete waste of money.