MD after PhD

lois said:

Are there any shorter programs geared towards grad students who have finished a PhD in the sciences and want to go to Med school?

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Hi Lois,

I could be mistaken in your question, but along the lines of covering the BCPM (Chem / Ochem / Bio / Physics / Calc) or some subset, some PhD to MD's complete the courses in 'continuing education' evening courses offered at local Universities.

Other options available are post bacc programs as discussed elsewhere (but your mention of shorter routes suggest you're already aware of this option).

Some general discussion of PhD to MD experiences are available in the following thread (which might be of general interest)


HIH

I don't know of any. I'm finishing my Ph.D and applying to med school, but I didn't come across any short cut path.

Thanks for bringing up that old thread, nontrad. I bumped it.

OP, no, there are no shortcuts to med school. Miami used to have a short-cut path, but they don't any more b/c of LCME requirements. You can still read about it on their website though: U. Miami PhD to MD program

lois said:

Are there any shorter programs geared towards grad students who have finished a PhD in the sciences and want to go to Med school?

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There are a few of us on here that did this (I did too). Miami used to have a two-year M.D., and Wash U used to have a three-year M.D. for Ph.D.'s. Both are now four years. I think the only place you may have success is Duke where all medical sctudents, I believe, do three years of work toward the M.D. and one year is spent doing research; some Ph.D.'s may be exempt from that year but I'm not 100% certain.

drhatchet said:

Hi:

Can anyone Plz.. guide how to proceed for med school, after completing Phd in country other than USA, but having done Post doctoral fellowship from US.Friends please help, I badly want to enter in the MED school, but I'm feeling so lost .Any help will be highly appreciated.

thanks in advance

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Do you have US citizenship or a green card? You will have a lot more options as far as schools that will consider you if you do. In general, you will need to do the same things that American applicants do before you can apply: take the pre-reqs, study for and take the MCAT, volunteer, and shadow physicians. Maybe some of the international applicants can give some more specific advice here.

drhatchet,

It might be helpful if you describe your situation a little more. In particular, where are you in regards to the pre req's? Also, have you had a chance to write the MCAT? How about any clinical or volunteer experience? Each of these factors are important to the process, hence it would be useful to understand where you are with respect to them.

Unfortunately, I am not well versed in concerns related to course work completed abroad, but I suspect that there are distinct approaches here. Hopefully someone around here knows about this. If not, have you posted in the IMG forums? Maybe someone over there knows a thing or two.


nt314

Ha Ha crossed posts with Q!

Incidently, drhatchet, if there are distinct concerns about completing courses abroad, I would be very interested in knowing how the process works for those concerns. If you could PM those to me or post them here, then it would be appreciated!

regards

nt314

dr.z said:

I don't know of any. I'm finishing my Ph.D and applying to med school, but I didn't come across any short cut path.

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You said in another thread you were already in.

JKDMed said:

You said in another thread you were already in.

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You must be bored always trying to harass me. I'll give you credit for your persistence. Only thing is, at least I'm in. I had my acceptances from Western and CCOM last cycle. I applied to TCOM for the hell of it this year, and if I don't get in I'll attend Western.

You can call CCOM and Western to confirm if you would like. In the mean time why don't you search the last year's official acceptance thread. Don't take your frustrations on me. I've got nothing to do with your not being accepted so far.

lois said:

In reply to nontrad314 - sorry I wasn't very specific in the original thread. I was premed as an undergrad and have taken all required courses. Thanks for the reference. I am really just looking for a shorter MD program. There are 2 problems -1. I love research and don't want to be kept from it for too long while taking courses (I'm currently a pHD student) and 2. my future plan is to really have my own lab and be an MD once a week to keep up my skills and then travel to different countries 2 months a years (or somethign like that) to volunteer as a doctor in a clinic abroad...I know I must sound a little crazy

So is the quest for an MD worth it if I am only going to use the skills for a fraction of the year? I think definately nad I'm hoping it will give me a different perspective and new ideas for tackling research problems.

Is anyone thinking of doing somethign similar? or have you already done something similar? I would love love love to hear about it!

Thanks njbmd - very optimistic. and
ScottishChap and QofQuimica- too bad they're not around anymore...thanks for the info. Duke sounds promising and probably is my best bet to shorten things a bit.

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Lois, I can see where you are coming from. I felt pretty much the same way. I actually completed a postdoc. and was interviewing for faculty positions at the same time as I was interviewing for medical school. Of course, I was delighted to gain entry into medical school. Anyway....here are a few things you might want to consider:
1. Medical training in its entirety is lengthy and an enormous sacrifice. Whatever you decide, you'll have to ponder (if you have not already) that conducting competitive research while simultaneously training in clinical medicine is not realistic. There are no longer any 'abbreviated' MD programs for PhD's. On top of at least three years for a primary residency, that's seven full years that you'll be away from competitive research. Yes - you can keep your hand in there between years 1 and 2 of medical school, but it's pretty much full steam ahead in clinical medicine if you want to complete your training.
2. If you only want to work at an MD once per week, is it really worthwhile? Honestly, in academia--even using your MD--it's going to take forever to pay off the massive medical school debt that you'll accrue if you only work one or two shifts now and again.
3. Medical school is hard and both the intellectual and emotional demands are quite different from those experienced in graduate school. If you love what you do, would you really want to mess up that feeling?
4. I've worked with MD/PhD's from various fields (cardiology, endocrinology, anesthesiology, and pathology) and I can honestly say that I only ever met one of them who felt that a combined clinical and successful research program was feasible if you have your foot in both camps. Most agree that either your clinical work or your research will suffer if you try to do both full-time....and that was coming from the pathologist.
5. Doing an MD just out of intellectual curiosity is great, but it won't increase your research productivity or marketability for grants. Unless you are engaging in clinical research that might require professional medical training, the commom myth that an MD will make it easier to gain grants is just that - a myth. At the RO1 level, strong preliminary data and pubications will get you the grant; I promise you that the MD will be incidental in this realm.

Have you considered using your PhD in a clinical specialty: medical microbiology, immunology, clinical biochemistry. All of the above are board-certifiable as a PhD, you'll have a nice income and your research need not suffer as much. I mention this as I completed the latter of those fellowships before medical school and it really is a wonderful career option that is neither expensive nor too tiresome to get there.

Please take all of the above with a grain of salt. I am happy with my choices but I'm just trying to give you an alternative perspective, based on your comments and request for feedback. Good luck!
Best
-SC

Scottish Chap said:

Most agree that either your clinical work or your research will suffer if you try to do both full-time....and that was coming from the pathologist.

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As a future MD/PhD, I think this idea about either your clinical or research career "suffering" is all realtive to how you see yourself in your perspective career and how you measure success. In my career, I'll almost certainly be more "research" oriented than "clinically" oriented but if/when my research pursuits are directly applicable to clinical medicine (ie translational medicine), I will have "successfully" managed to do both. And I'll do that as a pathologist!

Perhaps a bigger question is how do you measure success? I realized many years ago on SDN that my goal of MD/PhD versus MSTP MD/PhD was seen as less "prestigous" and by definition less "succcessful" to many MD/PhD applicants/matriculants/graduates. While they're heading toward being chairman of this and that department, I'll be perfectly happy as a government physician continuing my work in translational medicine with my non MSTP MD/PhD.

As for shorter MD programs what I've learned is that at some schools if you matriculate MD at the school where you're completing/or have completed a PhD and you completed medical schools courses in your PhD program, there are instances where the med school will exempt you from taking these med school classes again in medical school but require you fulfill the credit hour requirement in other sciences courses.

1Path said:

Perhaps a bigger question is how do you measure success? I realized many years ago on SDN that my goal of MD/PhD versus MSTP MD/PhD was seen as less "prestigous" and by definition less "succcessful" to many MD/PhD applicants/matriculants/graduates. While they're heading toward being chairman of this and that department, I'll be perfectly happy as a government physician continuing my work in translational medicine with my non MSTP MD/PhD.

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This really struck me, b/c I've had the opposite experience. It seems to me that a lot of PhD/MDs (separate degrees) look down on MD/PhDs (combined degrees) for not having completed a "real" PhD. Actually, I think it's funny that anyone even cares about it one way or the other.

lois said:

Hey Scotish Chap - So what are you doing now? Whats your plan for the future? just curious.

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MSI. Long way to go yet. Don't hesitate to PM any specific questions you might have as you make your way toward your thesis defense and medical school application. I'm always willing to help.

1Path said:

As a future MD/PhD, I think this idea about either your clinical or research career "suffering" is all realtive to how you see yourself in your perspective career and how you measure success.

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As a student, you're pretty much always a success but, in the real world of competitive academic medicine, it's sometimes hard to ascertain what success really is.

QofQuimica said:

This really struck me, b/c I've had the opposite experience. It seems to me that a lot of PhD/MDs (separate degrees) look down on MD/PhDs (combined degrees) for not having completed a "real" PhD. Actually, I think it's funny that anyone even cares about it one way or the other.

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Really? I think I could understand feeling a little bit slighted if I took 6 years to complete a PhD with several publications while an MD/PhD went through the same lab in half that amount of time, came out with 1 pub, and got the same degree. In a way it sort of trivializes the traditional PhD when med students are quickly shuffled through the program, often having done roughly the same amount of work as a master's student. PhD's already have the bum rap of not being considered 'real doctors'. I could see how the PhD from the MD/PhD program is kind of like insult to injury. Maybe this is not the case for PhDs who go on to do MDs afterwards(?)... eh, who knows...

jmnykrkts said:

Really? I think I could understand feeling a little bit slighted if I took 6 years to complete a PhD with several publications while an MD/PhD went through the same lab in half that amount of time, came out with 1 pub, and got the same degree. In a way it sort of trivializes the traditional PhD when med students are quickly shuffled through the program, often having done roughly the same amount of work as a master's student. PhD's already have the bum rap of not being considered 'real doctors'. I could see how the PhD from the MD/PhD program is kind of like insult to injury. Maybe this is not the case for PhDs who go on to do MDs afterwards(?)... eh, who knows...

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Well, I guess it really depends on the program, but I think that what you've described is the exception, not the norm. I have known combined degree students who have taken eight or even nine years to complete their programs, which is not too far off from the amount of time it has taken those of us who are completing the degrees separately. If you also consider that some elective time and vacation time during med school can be used to do research, I'm guessing that there is enough time to complete a "real" PhD during a combined program in seven or eight years. Such a student won't have any life at all outside of school, but it could be done. So, I'm not saying what you described never happens, but I am not convinced that most MD/PhDs haven't put in a fair amount of work to deserve the title of PhD.

Scottish Chap said:

As a student, you're pretty much always a success but, in the real world of competitive academic medicine, it's sometimes hard to ascertain what success really is.

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Trurer words were never spoken.

Q, it seems to me that there's always some sort of hierachy no matter what you do for a living. I imagine that in the academic research world, an MSTP trained MD/PhD who completed an Ivy leaague residency/fellowship and who specializes in Neurosurgery is sitting at the top of the academic research hill, followed distantly by EVERYONE else!

1Path said:

Q, it seems to me that there's always some sort of hierachy no matter what you do for a living. I imagine that in the academic research world, an MSTP trained MD/PhD who completed an Ivy leaague residency/fellowship and who specializes in Neurosurgery is sitting at the top of the academic research hill, followed distantly by EVERYONE else!

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Just don't let it all go to your head one day when you get there, 1path.

QofQuimica said:

......but I am not convinced that most MD/PhDs haven't put in a fair amount of work to deserve the title of PhD.

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You'd better put your "titanium trimmed flame suit" on after this one!!

Having said that I'll have to agree with that although I think because I'll enter the program (one day) with a Thesis based MS, I'm an exception!

QofQuimica said:

Just don't let it all go to your head one day when you get there, 1path.

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By the time I'm done, I'll be retirement age so I don't think I'll have many marbles leftin my head for this to go to!

1Path said:

You'd better put your "titanium trimmed flame suit" on after this one!!

Having said that I'll have to agree with that although I think because I'll enter the program (one day) with a Thesis based MS, I'm an exception!

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I don't understand why my saying this should get me flamed, unless it's by other PhD/MD students. My statement is a double negative, meaning that I DO think that MD/PhDs deserve their PhDs.

1Path said:

By the time I'm done, I'll be retirement age so I don't think I'll have many marbles leftin my head for this to go to!

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Don't say that at your interviews.

QofQuimica said:

I don't understand why my saying this should get me flamed, unless it's by other PhD/MD students. My statement is a double negative, meaning that I DO think that MD/PhDs deserve their PhDs.

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Perhaps s/he was suggesting that there are indeed many PhDs (or PhD/MDs) lurking that would strongly object to the claim that the PhD from a combined program is of equal value. ??? I agree though, no reason for flames...

Anyhow, I suppose I feel this way b/c the vast majority of MD/PhDs that have come through my department have wizzed through the program in 3 years. In fact, that's all the time they are allotted to finish their research stint. Most finish with only one publication. On the other hand, traditional PhD students here take an average of 6 years and have multiple publications -3 is the norm - that are typically published in higher impact journals. There are obviously exceptions, but this is the norm from what I've seen and it was my impression that this was a pretty universal thing.
I'm not trying to debase the PhD from the combined program but it just seems to me that these folks are not held to quite the same standard in the research arena as the the traditional PhDers

jmnykrkts said:

Perhaps s/he was suggesting that there are indeed many PhDs (or PhD/MDs) lurking that would strongly object to the claim that the PhD from a combined program is of equal value. ??? I agree though, no reason for flames...

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Well, considering that she wants to join a combined program herself, that would be a surprising argument for her to make.

QofQuimica said:

Well, considering that she wants to join a combined program herself, that would be a surprising argument for her to make.

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mmmmm, yes, perhaps... perhaps...

jmnykrkts said:

Anyhow, I suppose I feel this way b/c the vast majority of MD/PhDs that have come through my department have wizzed through the program in 3 years. In fact, that's all the time they are allotted to finish their research stint. Most finish with only one publication. On the other hand, traditional PhD students here take an average of 6 years and have multiple publications -3 is the norm - that are typically published in higher impact journals. There are obviously exceptions, but this is the norm from what I've seen and it was my impression that this was a pretty universal thing.
I'm not trying to debase the PhD from the combined program but it just seems to me that these folks are not held to quite the same standard in the research arena as the the traditional PhDers

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I do understand your point though. Watching this would upset me, too.

jmnykrkts said:

Perhaps s/he was suggesting that there are indeed many PhDs (or PhD/MDs) lurking that would strongly object to the claim that the PhD from a combined program is of equal value. ??? I agree though, no reason for flames...I'm not trying to debase the PhD from the combined program but it just seems to me that these folks are not held to quite the same standard in the research arena as the the traditional PhDers

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I'd say the PhD portion of most MD/PhD programs IS "watered" down requirement wise, compared to the straight PhD. I've heard of/seen MD/PhD's graduating with NO publications which is essentially unheard of for a straight PhD.

However, I'll be one of those "real" MD/PhD's!

jmnykrkts said:

Perhaps s/he was suggesting that there are indeed many PhDs (or PhD/MDs) lurking that would strongly object to the claim that the PhD from a combined program is of equal value. ??? I agree though, no reason for flames...

Anyhow, I suppose I feel this way b/c the vast majority of MD/PhDs that have come through my department have wizzed through the program in 3 years. In fact, that's all the time they are allotted to finish their research stint. Most finish with only one publication. On the other hand, traditional PhD students here take an average of 6 years and have multiple publications -3 is the norm - that are typically published in higher impact journals. There are obviously exceptions, but this is the norm from what I've seen and it was my impression that this was a pretty universal thing.
I'm not trying to debase the PhD from the combined program but it just seems to me that these folks are not held to quite the same standard in the research arena as the the traditional PhDers

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So....do traditional Ph.D. students who completed everything in less than 4 years, with publications, deserve their degree less? Opinions?

Scottish Chap said:

So....do traditional Ph.D. students who completed everything in less than 4 years, with publications, deserve their degree less? Opinions?

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In my intermittent research career which started in 1988, I've only seen/known one person that was able to do this (SHE was a genius!!) and not only that she went from her 3 year, multiple publications PhD program to an Ivy tenured faculty position WITHOUT a postdocc!

1Path said:

In my intermittent research career which started in 1988, I've only seen/known one person that was able to do this (SHE was a genius!!) and not only that she went from her 3 year, multiple publications PhD program to an Ivy tenured faculty position WITHOUT a postdocc!

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I know a couple of people who have done it. It's more common that people think.

Scottish Chap said:

I know a couple of people who have done it. It's more common that people think.

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I agree it happens but it "appears" that "regular" PhD's don't look at it very highly and have gone so far as to say as much in my experience. Bottom line is that insecure people do spend an awful lot of time putting others down.

As for me, I've looked into every permutation of acquiring the MD and PhD degrees but I've NEVER spent ANY time thinking about whether or not "other" people will hold my credentials in high regard. Of course, I've always been satisfied that my research speaks for itself!

NJBMD bring up a good point about the med school requirements once you're in an MD/PhD program, MSTP or not. Until VERY recently I had no idea that the "passing" standard was higher at some schools for MD/PhD students than others. Honestly, this knowlegde makes the PhD then MD, or MD then PhD a more appealing way for me to go but we'll see how things work out.

Hey Q, I've got that PhD in Chemistry "up my sleeve" as a solid Plan B Fall 2006 option. Let's face it, your footsteps don't sound like too bad of a path even at my age!

1Path said:

Hey Q, I've got that PhD in Chemistry "up my sleeve" as a solid Plan B Fall 2006 option. Let's face it, your footsteps don't sound like too bad of a path even at my age!

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Good luck to you, whichever path you end up taking. Maybe we will have to change your ID to >1path.

Scottish Chap said:

So....do traditional Ph.D. students who completed everything in less than 4 years, with publications, deserve their degree less? Opinions?

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No. But what you describe is definitely the exception. And just to clarify, I am in no way suggesting that MD/PhDs don't deserve their PhDs. Three years of research is still a lot of work. And with such a rigid timeline -combined with the fact that MD/PhD types are not usually in short supply of work ethic- those three yrs are often spent grinding, which is not always the case with traditional PhD students who have the luxury of being able to meander a little more. Nevertheless, it is extremely difficult to produce the same overall quantity and quality of research in 3 years as compared to 6 yrs (sure there are exceptions but I mean in a general sense). I think faculty/committee members appreciate this and, accordingly, hold a different standard to the 2 types of students. This -from what I have seen- is typically reflected in the publication records of the 2 (I know it's not a gold standard but a decent measure, I think).

qualifier:
I am not a PhD student -- I finished my masters a couple of years ago and have been working as an RA ever since. I am also not bitter, nor do I in any way, shape or form look down on the PhD from the combined program . These are merely my observations from the sideline....

Scottish Chap said:

I know a couple of people who have done it. It's more common that people think.

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More so for the European PhD but not so much in North America, no?

jmnykrkts said:

More so for the European PhD but not so much in North America, no?

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True....but I was talking about the U.S. If you're motivated enough, it can be done. (BTW, I was educated in Europe up until age 22; in good conscience, I can say they have it a little easier after undergrad. ).

Scottish Chap said:

True....but I was talking about the U.S. If you're motivated enough, it can be done. (BTW, I was educated in Europe up until age 22; in good conscience, I can say they have it a little easier after undergrad. ).

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Indeed there are some who can manage to really crank it up for a few years and accomplish an astonishing amount in that time. My gf did her PhD in 3.5 years and managed to churn out a shocking 10 publications (although, actually, she did one of those whacky European PhDs But, still, you're right, the work can be done in that time. Although I think motivation alone isn't going to cut it - you need a healthy dose of good fortune on your side too! A rarity in science

QofQuimica said:

Good luck to you, whichever path you end up taking. Maybe we will have to change your ID to >1path.

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Perhaps 1ZigZagPath might be a better username.

And for folks who finish in <4 years, a good mentor is key as well although I don't know how much one can compare a European PhD versus an "American" PhD. I personally can't say that the few people I've known with Euro PhD's were any less talented than Amer PhD's and perhaps the degree is seen in the same light as Euro MD's versus Amer MD's??

In general, people who feel the need to "look down" on anyone else have personality problems and are generally insecure. I have never felt the need to hold turf or look down on any human being regardless of degree or lack of degree.

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Not much here beyond my usual internet 2 cents, but that's a good point njbmd! I'm glad to see someone say it.

I'm not sure why anyone would get involved in such contests of whether this is better than that or higher or lower etc etc. You certainly have to have some time on your hands to afford to wonder about such things.

Maybe people are just bored.

I really tend to evaluate people by their actions and pretty much their last accomplishment. It's sort of standard to do that in some circles: Ask what the person has done recently of lately etc.

Again, 2 cents really

Everyone have a good one!

QueenAMK said:

hi everyone,
I'm not from States, i moved here about a year ago from Europe, where i got MS in genetic engineering and molecular biology, now i work full time as a scientist in cancer research. I have a family and bills to pay....i'm sorry if my Q will be stupid, but i don't have a student advisor to answer them...

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Welcome! Keep in mind that most U.S. medical schools want a U.S./Canadian bachelors degree or, at the very least, >60 credits of work completed in the U.S. that ordinarily should contain the prerequisite subjects (general biology/general physics/general chemistry) - even if you have studied them before.

QueenAMK said:

i decided to apply for medical school, but i wasn't able to find all the information i need for completing the aplication on AAMC neither on AMCAS web sites, and i didn't recieve answer to my emails.....

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It's best to call them. That's what I did.

QueenAMK said:

1) transcripts: in my country it's not common for school sending transcripts, especially not in foreign language, so when i graduated i got my transcripts translated, dean of the faculty confirmed them, signed them and i have 3 originals like that...what should i do???? AMCAS won't accept transcripts if i send them...

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Unfortunately, AMCAS won't 'verify' grades earned in a foreign country. At best, you can have your foreign undergraduate degree 'evaluated' by a professional U.S. agency like WES (www.wes.org). Send your WES evalaution AND your transcripts from overseas to AMCAS. For me, AMCAS kept the WES grades on the form, but they did not verify them nor did they assign the WES GPA.

QueenAMK said:

2) required courses: when i read the list of courses,... i took everything except collage english and US history, but will they accept it when it's not from US college but from university in Europe and i have a MS.

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Please read the above note and PM for more info. It's complicated, but I'm more than happy to help you navigate through it and see you on your way. I had the same issues when I applied.

QueenAMK said:

3) i know i need to send two aplications, first to AMCAS and then to schools i chose, does AMCAS send me application forms for each school or schould i go ahead and apply on my own???? do i need to wait for confirmation from AMCAS????

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Apply via AMCAS first (after the WES evaluation plus classes taken in the U.S.). U.S. medical schools, upon receiving your completed, verified AMCAS form, may or may not send you their own secondary application form if they think you are a competitive applicant.......at least, that's what they're supposed to do, but many schools will send you a secondary without reading your AMCAS form. G'luck!