Chiropractic physicians in hospitals

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PublicHealth

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In addition to having full staff privileges in VA hospitals, chiropractors are also on the staffs of hospitals in the US:

http://www.henryfordhealth.org/body.cfm?id=38441&action=detail&ref=3907

http://www.winchesterhospitalchiro.com/doctors.html

http://www.umassmemorial.org/ummhc/hospitals/wing/services/centerandpractices.cfm (scroll down under "Chiropractic")

http://www.fmchealth.org/doctors/chiropractic_services.shtml

http://www.advocatehealth.com/gshp/services/mind/spine/specialists.html#valeria

http://www.bethesda.med.navy.mil/pa...uloskeletal_services/chiropractics/index.aspx

http://tricare.osd.mil/chiropractic/factsheet.htm

http://www.cayugamed.org/articles/read.dbm?ID=235


There are several others...I was just wondering and did a quick google search. According to the DCs and MDs/DOs with whom I have talked, chiropractic along with other alternative medical practices will increasingly become integrated into hospital settings. Chiropractic research documenting the efficacy of comprehensive chiropractic care and patient satisfaction with chiropractic care will undoubtedly expedite this integration.

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PublicHealth said:
In addition to having full staff privileges in VA hospitals, chiropractors are also on the staffs of hospitals in the US:

http://www.henryfordhealth.org/body.cfm?id=38441&action=detail&ref=3907

http://www.winchesterhospitalchiro.com/doctors.html

http://www.umassmemorial.org/ummhc/hospitals/wing/services/centerandpractices.cfm (scroll down under "Chiropractic")

http://www.fmchealth.org/doctors/chiropractic_services.shtml

http://www.advocatehealth.com/gshp/services/mind/spine/specialists.html#valeria

http://www.bethesda.med.navy.mil/pa...uloskeletal_services/chiropractics/index.aspx

http://tricare.osd.mil/chiropractic/factsheet.htm

http://www.cayugamed.org/articles/read.dbm?ID=235


There are several others...I was just wondering and did a quick google search. According to the DCs and MDs/DOs with whom I have talked, chiropractic along with other alternative medical practices will increasingly become integrated into hospital settings. Chiropractic research documenting the efficacy of comprehensive chiropractic care and patient satisfaction with chiropractic care will undoubtedly expedite this integration.

Many of the links you posted above are for chiropractors practicing in hospital affiliated outpatient clinics. Does anyone here have experience with chiropractors working in the in-patient setting? I know there is at least one facility with chiropractors available to the ED, but I don't know of any, outside of the VA system, where a chiropractor is allowed to practice on inpatients. Any information anyone?

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
Many of the links you posted above are for chiropractors practicing in hospital affiliated outpatient clinics. Does anyone here have experience with chiropractors working in the in-patient setting? I know there is at least one facility with chiropractors available to the ED, but I don't know of any, outside of the VA system, where a chiropractor is allowed to practice on inpatients. Any information anyone?

- H
Based on what I have read, chiropractic is predominantly an outpatient profession. John Cerf, DC, is a chiropractor affiliated with the ER at Meadowlands Hospital Medical Center in NJ: http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/20/21/04.html

Chiropractors may treat inpatients in VA hospitals (see Recommendation 11 in this link): http://www1.va.gov/primary/docs/FinalReportofCAC.pdf

There is also interest in getting chiropractic research going in the VA system: http://www1.va.gov/resdev/funding/solicitations/docs/chiropractic_care.pdf
 
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Show me all the chiroptactic research which appears in peer reviewed main stream Medicine Journals.

Until then, I see DC's as "naturalists" not Physicians at all.
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
Show me all the chiroptactic research which appears in peer reviewed main stream Medicine Journals.

Until then, I see DC's as "naturalists" not Physicians at all.

I don't think DCs would be offended by this title at all.

Physician, by definition, is someone who practices the healing arts. Optometrists, podiatrists, naturopaths, and other doctoral-level professions use the title physician. Yes, they are called optometric physicians, podiatric physicians, and naturopathic physicians. State law regulates the use of this title, however. Some states allow chiropractors to use the term "chiropractic physician," while other states do not.
 
611 said:

I think this is a positive move for chiropractic! It's about time that the feds cut some funding to research complementary and alternative medicine. Sorry, but there is much more to healthcare than drugs and surgery.

By the way, I'm a medical student (soldier-in-training for Big Pharma and HMOs).
 
I think your missing the point here.

DC's do not practice EBM. Until that changes with research and peer reviewed publication/research there is no place for them in the hospital.

That would be like sending in herbalists into the hospital to place patients on herbs which they believe would be beneficial without any concrete evidence.

Prove the treatment works by research and i will believe it, until then i see DC's in a similar fashion as massage therapists (with more education), helpful but not medicine.


PublicHealth said:
I don't think DCs would be offended by this title at all.

Physician, by definition, is someone who practices the healing arts. Optometrists, podiatrists, naturopaths, and other doctoral-level professions use the title physician. Yes, they are called optometric physicians, podiatric physicians, and naturopathic physicians. State law regulates the use of this title, however. Some states allow chiropractors to use the term "chiropractic physician," while other states do not.
 
611 said:
I hope this one does not ruffle too many feathers.
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=33 ;)
A DC cannot be a primary care physician. end of story.

Look at the Curriculum as well as the training. This is NOT prepatory for PCP. ONLY an MD/DO can be a PCP.

Not only is that website stating DC's are qualified PCP's inflammatory, but it may be actionable (practicing medicine without a Licenses). This is misleading to the public as well as potential DC's.
 
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/20/21/04.html

I found that link very interesting. I'm glad to see people are benifiting from chiropractic. Foughtfyr, any comments on the patient seen by the chiropractor in the INpatent setting? Would you lead us to believe that his LBP would have resolved on it's own? Or would those fantastic narcotics the ER docs gave him be the reason for his recovery? Foughfyr, it seems as though quite a few of your assertions have fallen flat on their face. That's not to say that you're wrong on all accounts... you're not at all. I just feel you have a limited idea of what's really going on in chiropractic. By the way.. that TA of mine who's a DC.. she IS doing her masters through a joint program through York Universsity, CMCC, and the CCO. I spoke to her today and asked everything you presumed she was doing (an MA seperate from the university) and that's simply not the case. I asked her how i can get any documentation on this and she said she will provide me with what she has when i have lab again in 2 weeks.

Also here's a link of my own dipicting what DC's are doing in terms of research: http://registrar.cmcc.ca/members/pdf/Research2003.pdf

regards
 
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611 said:
I hope this one does not ruffle too many feathers.
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=33 ;)

It's amazing (scarey?) that in 10 'trimesters' they think they can teach someone not only how to practice chiropractic, but also how to (safely) practice primary care medicine - when MD/DOs devote at least 7 YEARS.....buying into this is going to get someone hurt or killed.
 
611 said:
Am I reading this link correctly that the basic MD degree is 4 year?
http://www.uic.edu/depts/mcam/ugme/curriculum/map.html

Yes, it is 11 semesters over four calendar years. BUT, just holding the degree does nothing. You cannot be licensed in any state, nor can you write prescriptions etc. That takes a minimum of 1 - 2 years of residency (depending on the state). That said, it would be nearly impossible to obtain malpractice insurance (a requirement for licensure in most states) if you "drop out" of a residency program after licensure but prior to completion. So, add at least 3 years (the shortest duration residencies) to that training.

- H
 
jesse14 said:
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/20/21/04.html

I found that link very interesting. I'm glad to see people are benifiting from chiropractic. Foughtfyr, any comments on the patient seen by the chiropractor in the INpatent setting?

Wow Jesse, here we go again. First of all, the ED is not the inpatient setting. Second, if you read the posts above, I'm the one who asked if there were any chiropractors (outside of the VA) practicing inpatient. I really don't know. Third, this (old) article was well discussed on another thread (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=2120312&postcount=49 ) but the gist is this. First, all of the patients seen by these ED chiropractors are seen by an MD/DO first and significant pathology ruled out.

To quote the article:
"Patients who present to the ED with neck or back pain are screened by the attending ED physician, who is responsible for ruling out serious pathology, fracture, neurological deficit, and other findings that might contraindicate spinal manipulation. The ED physician may order x-rays, blood work or other diagnostic tests. When a severe condition presents, orthopedists, neurologists or neurosurgeons are enlisted to take over the case. Historically, all patients were given prescriptions and discharged from the hospital, with or without adequate relief. With our chiropractor-on-call program, the ED physician now has the option of calling for a chiropractic consultation, which gives the patient the opportunity to receive additional relief."​

Which eliminates the largest part of my concerns regarding chiropractic. Second, while I think this program has great potential, I would really like to see a head to head study comparing this chiropractic group to the same services offered in the ED by PTs. My guess is that outcomes at all levels, including patient satisfaction, would be similar.

jesse14 said:
Would you lead us to believe that his LBP would have resolved on it's own?

A patient "without serious pathology" who was ready to be discharged with analgesia? Yes, all available data suggest it would resolve on it's own.

jesse14 said:
Or would those fantastic narcotics the ER docs gave him be the reason for his recovery?

Actually, I'm an NSAID kind of guy myself, very few narcs, don't care for them. But in the cases described in the article, I'd probably write a "PT to eval and treat" order. Usually does the trick.

jesse14 said:
Foughfyr, it seems as though quite a few of your assertions have fallen flat on their face.

Umm, which ones? Let's see, an ED put together a program that does exactly what I have been saying is necessary (MD screening and oversight for all chiropractic patients) and my assertions are falling flat on their face? O.k. jesse, whatever you say.

jesse14 said:
That's not to say that you're wrong on all accounts... you're not at all. I just feel you have a limited idea of what's really going on in chiropractic.

Actually jesse, it seems I have a better idea than you do. I actually read up on the literature, I look at the new programs and what is currently being done in practice, and what is being taught. Do not confuse a lack of agreement with ignorance.

jesse14 said:
By the way.. that TA of mine who's a DC.. she IS doing her masters through a joint program through York Universsity, CMCC, and the CCO. I spoke to her today and asked everything you presumed she was doing (an MA seperate from the university) and that's simply not the case. I asked her how i can get any documentation on this and she said she will provide me with what she has when i have lab again in 2 weeks.

Now jesse you are doing the same thing with my quotes that you do with papers - reading them quickly and deciding for yourself what you think was said. Now let's look at what I did say:

FoughtFyr said:
"I would be VERY surprised to hear that the DC is considered acceptable for "post doctoral" work. More likely the school is considering this as routine graduate level study (in pursuit of a degree or certificate). In any event, at the graduate level self designed curricula are common - I wouldn't credit that as a partnership any more than if chirodoc gains admission to medical school will his education be a partnership between his chiropractic college and his medical school. Your TA is getting graduate training beyond the DC, big deal."

So we agree. You said "she IS doing her masters", right, her Master's, not a post-doctoral fellowship. I have never claimed that DCs do not go on for further education. I merely opined that the DC is generally not an acceptable degree for the granting of post-doctoral fellowships outside of chiropractic colleges.


jesse14 said:
Also here's a link of my own dipicting what DC's are doing in terms of research: http://registrar.cmcc.ca/members/pdf/Research2003.pdf

regards

jesse no one debates that research is being done. The issue is "is it being done well?" and "will it prove that chiropractic is a safe and effective treatment modality?" I don't believe it is being done well and I don't think it will prove chiropractic - I guess we will all have to stay tuned.

- H
 
well said FF.

611 = Troll. no point in responding to him.

Jesse. You clearly know nothing about medicine yet seem to be making judgements about it which are baseless. DC's seldom participate in essential research which is peer reviewed and published in medical journals, this is easy to find out with a quick PubMed search. Secondly, there is no proof in existance that a DC's practice does anything more than a good PT or massage thearapist.

Remember, DO's started out with the idea that there was nothing more needed than manipulation. They profession has gone away from this based on the inability to prove it true. The medicine a DO practices and that of an MD are identicle (as is the education and post education) hence the reason DO's are considered equivilents to MD's. The education and post education of a DC is not compareable in ANY sense. They are an additional "alternative" therapy without signifigant evidence to prove efficacy.

If you believe otherwise, please show me the evidence to prove your assertions.

...... Oh, thats right, there is none.

thanks for commin out.
 
FoughtFyr said:
Yes, it is 11 semester over four calendar years. BUT, just holding the degree does nothing. You cannot be licensed in any state, nor can you write prescriptions etc. That takes a minimum of 1 - 2 years of residency (depending on the state). That said, it would be nearly impossible to obtain malpractice insurance (a requirement for licensure in most states) if you "drop out" of a residency program after licensure but prior to completion. So, add at least 3 years (the shortest duration residencies) to that training.

- H
So, when you graduate medical school, you cannot practice medicine (general practice) unless you complete a residency? Has it always been that way?
 
Jeez, what have I started!?

The National Association of Chiropractic Medicine is a small association within chiropractic that seeks to practice evidence-based medicine (or evidence-based chiropractic). From their website: "The first and foremost requirement for membership in the NACM is that a Doctor of Chiropractic Medicine renounce the chiropractic hypothesis and/or philosophy; that is, the tenets upon which their scope of practice is based." http://www.chiromed.org/

Regarding primary care, "NACM members do not consider themselves to be "primary care" practitioners, as this would necessitate the training and ability to therapeutically impact any health care need of the consumer. NACM does not believe chiropractic education nor license to practice encompasses this scope of practice. NACM membership practitioners are "portal of entry" doctors, in that the consumer does not need referral from any other type of health care professional."

To my knowledge, some DC programs (e.g., NYCC, UBCC) embrace the "mixer" approach to chiropractic that is consistent with the views of the NACM. Curricula in these programs are science-heavy and very light on "chiropractic philosophy."

Chiropractic in the VA is a good example of how DCs could work collaboratively with other healthcare professionals in treating NMS disorders. They are not considered "primary care" providers in this setting, but obtain most of their patients by referral.
 
611 said:
So, when you graduate medical school, you cannot practice medicine (general practice) unless you complete a residency? Has it always been that way?

It hasn't always been this way, GPs (General Practitioners, MDs with only an internship after graduation) used to be quite common. Now, they are almost impossible to find. A minimum of 3 years post-graduate is required to actually practice medicine with all the proper licensing and insurance.
 
611 said:
So, when you graduate medical school, you cannot practice medicine (general practice) unless you complete a residency? Has it always been that way?

Pretty much yes, some post graduate training has been required for roughly 100 years. In more recent times this has gone from the minimum of at least an intern year to the current virtual requirement to complete a residency.

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
Pretty much yes, some post graduate training has been required for roughly 100 years. In more recent times this has gone from the minimum of at least an intern year to the current virtual requirement to complete a residency.

- H
What happens if a med. student graduates school after 4 years and he cannot get into a residency program of his/her choosing? Are there enough residency programs to go around?
 
611 said:
What happens if a med. student graduates school after 4 years and he cannot get into a residency program of his/her choosing? Are there enough residency programs to go around?
there are more residency slots than students applying. That is how IMG/FMG get residency slots as well. What is not always the case is that there are enough slots in what you want to do. So if you want to be an orthopod and dont get a residency but your offered an IM residency, you essentially end your plans to be an orthopod unless you do another residency later. This then gets very complicated economically because residents salary is subsidized by the fed. gov. Typically (though i know one just recently who got a paid approved second residency) you only get one fed gov. subsidized residency.

So, if you did get the residecy you wanted and decided you didnt want anything else you will be in limo for a year not allowed to practice medicine in North America until you reapply for the match the next year.
 
611 said:
What happens if a med. student graduates school after 4 years and he cannot get into a residency program of his/her choosing? Are there enough residency programs to go around?

I'll give you a long answer that details out the match, so to others, I apologize.

First I need to correct an error. Residency is now required: (from:http://www.ama-assn.org/aps/physcred.html#license)
"Physician Licensure

Physicians may hold one or more licenses to practice medicine in 54 US licensing jurisdictions.

Licenses are granted to ensure the public that the physician who presents himself/herself for licensure has successfully completed an appropriate sequence of medical education, including a specified amount of residency training in an accredited program, and has demonstrated competence through successful completion of an examination or other certification demonstrating qualification for licensure."{emphasis added}​

So what is the "match"? From:http://www.aafp.org/x20240.xml?printxml
"Information about the National Resident Matching Program (NRMP) can be found on the web at http://www.nrmp.org. It contains information about registration, deadlines, etc. This site describes, in brief, the basic process through which the Match is conducted.

The NRMP provides a uniform system by which residency candidates simultaneously "match" to first- and second-year postgraduate training positions accredited by the ACGME.

It is uniform in the sense that all the steps of the process are done in the same fashion and at the same time by all applicants and participating institutions. All students should enroll in the Match and are bound to abide by the terms of it. However, if a student is offered a position by an institution not in the Match, such as an Osteopathic position or an unaccredited position, his or her dean of student affairs can withdraw the student before the Match deadline for changes.

It is a violation of NRMP rules for either an applicant or a program to solicit information on how the other will rank them. If that information is solicited from you, you are under no obligation to, nor should you, provide it. It is not a violation for an applicant or a program to tell the other how one will be ranked. Any verbal indication of ranking is not binding, however, and the rank order list takes precedence. Students are advised to not rely on such verbal remarks when creating their rank order lists.

An applicant who certifies a rank order list enters into a binding commitment to accept the position if a match occurs. Failure to honor that commitment is a violation of the Match Participation Agreement signed during registration and triggers an investigation by the NRMP. If the violation is confirmed, the applicant may be barred from future matches for up to three years and the NRMP will notify the applicant’s medical school, the American Board of Medical Specialties, and all programs on the rank order list.

The Match is "nearly" all-inclusive because it lists almost all those positions in ACGME-accredited training programs that participate in the Match. Candidates for residency positions in Opthalmology, Neurology, Neurological Surgery, and Plastic Surgery will participate in the San Francisco Match, although some programs will participate in both matches. These candidates must, however, participate in the NRMP in order to secure a prerequisite postgraduate training for each of these specialties. Furthermore, programs sponsored by some branches of the Uniformed Services do not participate in the NRMP.

The entire NRMP Match process is conducted via the Web using the Registration, Ranking and Results System (R3). Users are able to access R3 through the NRMP Web page at www.nrmp.org. Applicants will pay their registration fee online using a credit card or bank card, enter their rank order list and receive Match results via the Web.

The following section includes a detailed example from the NRMP, which illustrates how the Match works. In reading through this example, you will see how the Match accomplishes, in one day, what used to take weeks of back and forth negotiation between residency applicants and hospitals when no NRMP existed. It is possible not to get the position you preferred; it's possible not to match at all, but there are some simple guidelines that can help to ensure the best possible match for you.

- Do not overestimate yourself. Although you may feel sure that you will match at your top choice, you may increase your chance of not matching by listing only one program.

- Do not underestimate yourself. Even if you do not think you have much of a chance and if you really want to go somewhere in particular, go ahead and rank it first. The program may not get its top ten choices, and you might be number eleven on its list. It will not negatively impact your chances of matching to less competitive programs lower on your list. Remember no one but you will know what rank you matched to.

- Do not list programs that you do not want. You may end up at a program that you really did not want. Decide whether it is better to be unmatched than to be matched to a program that you don't want.

- Remember that the order in which you rank programs is crucial to the Match process. Upon casual consideration, one or more programs may seem fairly equivalent to you, but if you take the time to consider carefully, you may discover reasons you would rank one program over another. The Match computer is fair, but it is also indifferent to anything other than the Rank Order List provided. If you rank one program above another, it will put you in the first program if it can without stopping to consider that, after all, maybe geographic location is more important to you than a higher faculty to resident ratio.

- Don't make your list too short. On an average, unmatched students' lists were shorter than matched students' lists. Students selecting highly competitive specialties are advised to make longer lists.
These are just some of the guidelines that will help you as you begin the process of entering the Match. More specific information, a schedule of dates and registration materials from the NRMP will be made available to you on the NRMP Web site or through your Office of Student Affairs. Keep an eye out for notices regarding information from the NRMP.

Not everyone will match to a position. Applicants can find out from the Web or their deans if they are unmatched before Match Day so that they will have the opportunity to contact hospitals that did not fill and hopefully secure a satisfactory position.

It is not true that only "bad" programs do not fill. It is possible for any program not to fill if their rank list is at odds with the applicants who ranked it or is too short. There are likely to be several programs with unfilled positions after the Match that you would find desirable. In some cases, it may mean accepting a position in another specialty that you were considering as a second choice or were considering for the purpose of preparing you for the next year's Match. Your dean's office and the department chairman in your medical school, with information provided by the National Resident Matching Program, are prepared to help locate open positions for students who do not match."​

So here is the gist: each medical student selects a number of programs to apply to through a uniform application process called ERAS. Their applications are electronically transmitted (after being factually verified by ERAS) to the programs an applicant chooses. Interviews are scheduled and completed based on the ERAS data. Then the applicants enter a "rank order list" of the programs they have interviewed, in the order of the applicants preference. The programs do the same (rank the applicants). An computer, using a system that favors the applicants' preferences then generates a "match list". This is a binding agreement between an applicant and the programs for the residency position. In the week prior to match day, both applicants and programs first find out if a "match" has been made. If it has not, then the dreaded "scramble" occurs. This is where un-matched students literally call programs that have not filled and vye for a spot. The "scramble" is also regulated by NRMP rules. After the scramble, on the same day nationwide ("Match day"), the results are annouced and the medical student learns where they will attend resdiency.

Now, there are a few things to remember. Some specialties require an intern year prior to entering training (e.g., dermatology, opthomology), other include the the intern year into their program (e.g., most emergency medicine, family practice) and still others require a "transitional year" which is essentially an intern year focused on a specific area of medicine (e.g., internal medicine, general surgery). Now, the ACGME has specific requirements for the first year of residency, be it included, an intern year, or a transitional year, to insure that all practicing physicians achieve competence in basic medical conditions. When entering the match for programs that require a transitional year or intern year, you have to apply for those positions as well.

If someone doesn't match, and can't scramble (a very rare condition - keep in mind that by virtue of undergoing the medical school application process, medical students are generally adept at academic survival), then some will enter intern year or transitional year programs and try again the next year. A very small number may take jobs outside of clinical medicine.

The question usually isn't "will a student match" but rather "will a student match into a specialty they want?" Unfortunately the answer is sometimes no, especially in competitive specialties such as dermatology, optomology or ortho surgery.

- H
 
FF

great post, very helpful for understanding such a weird process. Currently for me, this isnt an issue (far far off) but it is interesting none-the-less.
 
611,

It is sort of obvious from your posts that you consider chiropractic education roughly equivalent to medical education. I suspect this is because you are either a practicing chiropractor or a chiropractic student. I know that my friends and family who are chiropractors were constanly told (by their respective schools) that the training was similar. But it isn't. You might be able to make a case that chiropractic college is 75% of medical (based on time), and that would be true if time were the only measure. And 75% is pretty close. But what you leave out is that all physicians go through residency. All of them, regardless of specalty do a programmed first year (intern or otherwise) where they will treat hundreds of patients in all areas of the hospital (not just those in their chosen specialty). Then they will spend another 2 - 7 years in residency and/or fellowship. Don't feel bad, most of the chiropractic literature lends to this fallacy by testing third year chiropractic students against fourth year medical students, considering them equal. They aren't. The chiropractors are about to enter practice and the medical students are only halfway through their training. What is scary is that in the studies I've seen the medical students outperform the chiropractic students.

- H
 
I've used chiropractic for years on and off for musculoskeletal problems realted to working out. for this limited scope of care, they can be useful. now having said that, I've also heard more utter nonsense come out of the mouths of chiroprators (and I've come in contact with dozens!) than any other heath care provider. Just for everyone's ammusement, let me share some of the better ones!

"You have a magnetic north pole in your head, and a magnetic south pole in your feet."

"Oh, you're tired? Well, your adrenals are shot. You need to take this homepopathic adrenal extract."

" See - when I place this glass bottle of supplements on your stomsch, your arm strength improves. This demonstrates that your body id deficient in this supplement."

"We're doing a lot of interesting things these days with body energy."

"Oh, well, you got dural entrapment that causing low back muscle spasm."

And my all-time Favorites:

"My kids have never had a vaccination, and they're perfectly healthy."

"I can cure earaches in kids in 7-10 days with adjustments."

If these people would just stick to using manipulation techniques where appropriate, and quit trying to EXPLAIN things (thereby demonstrating either a complete lack of science knowledge or a distain for it), they'd gain more respect.

A good site for more fun info on chiropratic "physicians" is:

http://www.quackwatch.org/
 
:mad:
Trader56 said:
I've used chiropractic for years on and off for musculoskeletal problems realted to working out. for this limited scope of care, they can be useful. now having said that, I've also heard more utter nonsense come out of the mouths of chiroprators (and I've come in contact with dozens!) than any other heath care provider. Just for everyone's ammusement, let me share some of the better ones!

"You have a magnetic north pole in your head, and a magnetic south pole in your feet."

"Oh, you're tired? Well, your adrenals are shot. You need to take this homepopathic adrenal extract."

" See - when I place this glass bottle of supplements on your stomsch, your arm strength improves. This demonstrates that your body id deficient in this supplement."

"We're doing a lot of interesting things these days with body energy."

"Oh, well, you got dural entrapment that causing low back muscle spasm."

And my all-time Favorites:

"My kids have never had a vaccination, and they're perfectly healthy."

"I can cure earaches in kids in 7-10 days with adjustments."

If these people would just stick to using manipulation techniques where appropriate, and quit trying to EXPLAIN things (thereby demonstrating either a complete lack of science knowledge or a distain for it), they'd gain more respect.

A good site for more fun info on chiropratic "physicians" is:

http://www.quackwatch.org/
I whole heartedly agree. Some of the things that come out of the mouths of Chiropractors are insulting to the entire profession. Unfortunately many people judge the profession by these people. :mad:
 
heh

611.

I would specifically read these ones : http://www.chirobase.org/01General/controversy.html
http://www.chirobase.org/01General/skeptic.html
http://www.chirobase.org/01General/chirosub.html
http://www.chirobase.org/01General/chiro.html
http://www.chirobase.org/01General/chirosham.html <-- written by a DC
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html
http://www.chirobase.org/15News/lewis.html <- DC kills woman with neck manipulation
http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/botnick.html <-- DC who quit because it was a sham

Some quotes:

Chiropractic is the most significant nonscientific health-care delivery system in the United States. As a result of their high level of organization and aggressiveness, chiropractors are licensed to practice in all 50 states and several foreign countries. Although a minority of chiropractors offer rational treatment, chiropractic's cultism is so well entrenched that the profession should be viewed as a societal problem, not simply as a competitor of regular health-care.

It should show you that research actually confirms that DC's are not utilizing EBM at all and the training is far from that of the physician (or most other accepted healthcare professions for that matter).
 
PublicHealth said:
I don't think DCs would be offended by this title at all.

Physician, by definition, is someone who practices the healing arts. Optometrists, podiatrists, naturopaths, and other doctoral-level professions use the title physician. Yes, they are called optometric physicians, podiatric physicians, and naturopathic physicians. State law regulates the use of this title, however. Some states allow chiropractors to use the term "chiropractic physician," while other states do not.

the only profession that can use the title of physician is a MD or DO. Anybody else who uses it is just trying to trick people into thinking they are a MD/DO. Optometrists, dentists, podiatrists, chrios are not physicians! my stepdad is a chiro and does not use the term physician. believe me, you do not want to trust any chiros that call themselves "physicians".

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=physician&db=*
 
PublicHealth said:
I think this is a positive move for chiropractic! It's about time that the feds cut some funding to research complementary and alternative medicine. Sorry, but there is much more to healthcare than drugs and surgery.

By the way, I'm a medical student (soldier-in-training for Big Pharma and HMOs).


All unbiased research has repetitively (i.e. not done by the ACA) shown that hiropractic is about as effective as taking an aspirin or a massage. In most cases, it is more comparable to a sugar pill. In any case, an aspirin is usually cheaper.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiro.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiroad.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chironutr.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirovic.html
 
One of my family friends is a chiropractor... and he told me an interesting story.

He said that a patient came into his office with upper neck pain, but as he was taking the patients history he noticed that the patient was unable to eat any meals. He vomited after every meal, and he could only eat light snacks. This had adverse negative effects obviously, and he was unable to eat at work, or in a restaurant etc. The patient went to his MD, and they tried everything, but could not cure him, and could not figure out what was wrong with him. Miraculously, like a magician, the chiropractor palpated his mid thoracic spine and found fixations. He then adjusted the patient and said that his stomach and GI problems had their origins in the spine. The chiro then told the patient to go try a meal... but the patient said "I'm going to put you to the test, I'm going to go to an all you can eat buffet." The next week the patient came in , and like magic he was all better, he could now eat full meals, and no longer vomited... his adjustments in the thoracic spine fixed his vomiting, and his GI problems were a result of fixations in his spine.

Now I know this guy is full of crap, pardon my French, so I couldn't help but laugh. Another time he told me that one of his female patients was unable to have children, she was infertile. After a few adjustments she was able to have kids.

Thoughts anyone?
 
fun8stuff said:
the only profession that can use the title of physician is a MD or DO. Anybody else who uses it is just trying to trick people into thinking they are a MD/DO. Optometrists, dentists, podiatrists, chrios are not physicians! my stepdad is a chiro and does not use the term physician. believe me, you do not want to trust any chiros that call themselves "physicians".

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=physician&db=*

Unfortunately, not so here in nebraska...they recently were allowed to use the title "Chiropractic Physicans" - they advertise quite a bit about how 'Chiropractic Physicians' are trained to treat common ailments w/out harmful drugs or surgery' and they even have a section on the Nebraska Chiropractic Physicians Association website entitled Will you be our Family Doctor? ... as I've said before, this is going to get someone hurt or killed.
 
seanjohn said:
One of my family friends is a chiropractor... and he told me an interesting story.

He said that a patient came into his office with upper neck pain, but as he was taking the patients history he noticed that the patient was unable to eat any meals. He vomited after every meal, and he could only eat light snacks. This had adverse negative effects obviously, and he was unable to eat at work, or in a restaurant etc. The patient went to his MD, and they tried everything, but could not cure him, and could not figure out what was wrong with him. Miraculously, like a magician, the chiropractor palpated his mid thoracic spine and found fixations. He then adjusted the patient and said that his stomach and GI problems had their origins in the spine. The chiro then told the patient to go try a meal... but the patient said "I'm going to put you to the test, I'm going to go to an all you can eat buffet." The next week the patient came in , and like magic he was all better, he could now eat full meals, and no longer vomited... his adjustments in the thoracic spine fixed his vomiting, and his GI problems were a result of fixations in his spine.

Now I know this guy is full of crap, pardon my French, so I couldn't help but laugh. Another time he told me that one of his female patients was unable to have children, she was infertile. After a few adjustments she was able to have kids.

Thoughts anyone?
Just more Magic they can perform. Amazing
 
"Even today's "natural" childbirth methods can affect an infant's spine. Preliminary studies suggest that colic, unusual crying, poor appetite, ear infections or erratic sleeping habits can be signs of spinal distress. Relax. Newborns adjustments are gentle. As a rule, no more pressure than you'd used to test the ripeness of a tomato is involved."

And this is from the OFFICIAL Chiropractic association of the state...
 
seanjohn said:
One of my family friends is a chiropractor... and he told me an interesting story.

He said that a patient came into his office with upper neck pain, but as he was taking the patients history he noticed that the patient was unable to eat any meals. He vomited after every meal, and he could only eat light snacks. This had adverse negative effects obviously, and he was unable to eat at work, or in a restaurant etc. The patient went to his MD, and they tried everything, but could not cure him, and could not figure out what was wrong with him. Miraculously, like a magician, the chiropractor palpated his mid thoracic spine and found fixations. He then adjusted the patient and said that his stomach and GI problems had their origins in the spine. The chiro then told the patient to go try a meal... but the patient said "I'm going to put you to the test, I'm going to go to an all you can eat buffet." The next week the patient came in , and like magic he was all better, he could now eat full meals, and no longer vomited... his adjustments in the thoracic spine fixed his vomiting, and his GI problems were a result of fixations in his spine.

Now I know this guy is full of crap, pardon my French, so I couldn't help but laugh. Another time he told me that one of his female patients was unable to have children, she was infertile. After a few adjustments she was able to have kids.

Thoughts anyone?

haha... yeah, many chiropractors are well established liars. This is an example of anecdotal medicine... based off hearsay. Medicine is based off rigours scientific testing (randomized clinical trials, etc).

They have tried to do this with chiropractic but it has always failed. One study they had 4 groups of people all having an equal number of back pains and headaches. The first group was given adjustments by chiropractors. The second was given an analgesic. The third group was given a massage. The fourth group was given a sugar pill. Group 1 was most comparable to a sugar pill or doing nothing at all.
 
nebrfan said:
Unfortunately, not so here in nebraska...they recently were allowed to use the title "Chiropractic Physicans" - they advertise quite a bit about how 'Chiropractic Physicians' are trained to treat common ailments w/out harmful drugs or surgery' and they even have a section on the Nebraska Chiropractic Physicians Association website entitled Will you be our Family Doctor? ... as I've said before, this is going to get someone hurt or killed.


that's scary. you would think someone would require something to be proven through research before allowing humans to subjected to it. just because something doesn't hurt, doesn't mean it's right! :laugh:
 
seanjohn said:
One of my family friends is a chiropractor... and he told me an interesting story.

He said that a patient came into his office with upper neck pain, but as he was taking the patients history he noticed that the patient was unable to eat any meals. He vomited after every meal, and he could only eat light snacks. This had adverse negative effects obviously, and he was unable to eat at work, or in a restaurant etc. The patient went to his MD, and they tried everything, but could not cure him, and could not figure out what was wrong with him. Miraculously, like a magician, the chiropractor palpated his mid thoracic spine and found fixations. He then adjusted the patient and said that his stomach and GI problems had their origins in the spine. The chiro then told the patient to go try a meal... but the patient said "I'm going to put you to the test, I'm going to go to an all you can eat buffet." The next week the patient came in , and like magic he was all better, he could now eat full meals, and no longer vomited... his adjustments in the thoracic spine fixed his vomiting, and his GI problems were a result of fixations in his spine.

Now I know this guy is full of crap, pardon my French, so I couldn't help but laugh. Another time he told me that one of his female patients was unable to have children, she was infertile. After a few adjustments she was able to have kids.

Thoughts anyone?

OK, this is totally out of character for me but here goes. I had a patient one time who fell off of a scaffold and landed on his butt with a big flexion force on his back. This is a big obese thick necked guy. Lots of typical whiplash type pain. I saw him for the first time about 3 weeks after the fall (from about 10 feet) I was palpating his back and when I pressed on the tp of about T6, the guy about threw up.

My first reaction was Ok, the guy has some gastroenteritis or drank too much, or ate some bad lutefisk or something. I stopped palpating and his nausea went away. I did it again 2 days later and POW, same thing.

I thought about it and the only POSSIBLE reason I could think of is anatomical. The sympathetic chain ganglia are adjacent to the t-spine. A big flexion moment could (????????) have affected the nerves or the fascia around the nerves and they got all upset and mad when I mobilized him.

I talked to a friend of mine (DC) (We are like the sheepdog and Wiley Coyote in the cartoon where we are friends after hours and try to kill each other during the day) and he said that he sees that from time to time.

I don't buy the whole fertility thing, but I am serious. I saw this, it was like the guy had a vomit button. Like Data on Star Trek TNG had an off button. Thoughts??
 
fun8stuff said:
the only profession that can use the title of physician is a MD or DO. Anybody else who uses it is just trying to trick people into thinking they are a MD/DO. Optometrists, dentists, podiatrists, chrios are not physicians! my stepdad is a chiro and does not use the term physician. believe me, you do not want to trust any chiros that call themselves "physicians".

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=physician&db=*

I wouldn't say that Podiatrists are not considered physicians. They go through the same 4yr medical school model as MD/DO's. Many Podiatry schools have DPM students taking the same classes as the MD/DO students. My starting class schedule this fall at RFU is: Gross Anatomy with MD students, Biochemistry with MD students, also Neuroscience, Micro/Immunology, Histology....pretty much very similar curriculm for the first two years. Then DPM students have to take their first set of medical boards similar to MD/DO's. The third and fourth year consists of clinical rotations and externships: Derm, Ortho, Peds, Radiology, Anes, ect.. Then after the 4th yr. the DPM will take their second set of medical boards. Next they will do a 2 or 3 yr residency at a hospital in Podiatric Medicine and Surgery. These residencies compose of Anesthesiology (acutally intubating pt's), Orthopaedics (assisting hip, knee, and of couse foot surgery, and covering call for Orthos at some places). Some Podiatry rotations include Pathology, Radiology, Infectious Disease, Dermatology, General / Vascular Surgery, Internal Medicine, ER, Anesthesia, and Orthopedic Surgery. Yeah, and don't forget being able to prescribe medications.

After all of this: Do you really think that a DPM is not considered a physician?
 
doclm said:
I wouldn't say that Podiatrists are not considered physicians. They go through the same 4yr medical school model as MD/DO's. Many Podiatry schools have DPM students taking the same classes as the MD/DO students. My starting class schedule this fall at RFU is: Gross Anatomy with MD students, Biochemistry with MD students, also Neuroscience, Micro/Immunology, Histology....pretty much very similar curriculm for the first two years. Then DPM students have to take their first set of medical boards similar to MD/DO's. The third and fourth year consists of clinical rotations and externships: Derm, Ortho, Peds, Radiology, Anes, ect.. Then after the 4th yr. the DPM will take their second set of medical boards. Next they will do a 2 or 3 yr residency at a hospital in Podiatric Medicine and Surgery. These residencies compose of Anesthesiology (acutally intubating pt's), Orthopaedics (assisting hip, knee, and of couse foot surgery, and covering call for Orthos at some places). Some Podiatry rotations include Pathology, Radiology, Infectious Disease, Dermatology, General / Vascular Surgery, Internal Medicine, ER, Anesthesia, and Orthopedic Surgery. Yeah, and don't forget being able to prescribe medications.

After all of this: Do you really think that a DPM is not considered a physician?[/QUOTe
Best of luck to you. State licensing boards decide what the doctor is to be called, not patients or SDNers :laugh:
 
doclm said:
I wouldn't say that Podiatrists are not considered physicians. They go through the same 4yr medical school model as MD/DO's. Many Podiatry schools have DPM students taking the same classes as the MD/DO students. My starting class schedule this fall at RFU is: Gross Anatomy with MD students, Biochemistry with MD students, also Neuroscience, Micro/Immunology, Histology....pretty much very similar curriculm for the first two years. Then DPM students have to take their first set of medical boards similar to MD/DO's. The third and fourth year consists of clinical rotations and externships: Derm, Ortho, Peds, Radiology, Anes, ect.. Then after the 4th yr. the DPM will take their second set of medical boards. Next they will do a 2 or 3 yr residency at a hospital in Podiatric Medicine and Surgery. These residencies compose of Anesthesiology (acutally intubating pt's), Orthopaedics (assisting hip, knee, and of couse foot surgery, and covering call for Orthos at some places). Some Podiatry rotations include Pathology, Radiology, Infectious Disease, Dermatology, General / Vascular Surgery, Internal Medicine, ER, Anesthesia, and Orthopedic Surgery. Yeah, and don't forget being able to prescribe medications.

After all of this: Do you really think that a DPM is not considered a physician?

I (and i think most of the population) see podiatrist as real doctors. From what I know, podiatric medicine is evidence based- there is research to back everything up. This is much different than chiropractic, which was originally based on good/bad fluids of energy. I have nothing but respect for the profession (podiatry).

It's only a matter of wording and definition. Historically, the term physician has been reserved for MD/DO's. This is the one last terms that distingishes a MD/DO from anybody else. Many professions are starting to call themselves doctors (nurses PhD, pharmacists, & physical thereapists), mostly for the purpose of trying to obtain the status of a MD/DO. This confuses the pubic and could be dangerous.

The training of these other health professions may be similar (and may even include a few classes that are the exact same as the courses taken by med students), but they are still different professions that focus on different aspects of health. Most med students are even told that they don't really learn medicine until years 3 & 4 (& residency beyond) which is when they actually begin to practice medicine and treating pathologies of the entire body.

As I said above, my step dad is a chiropractor and he refuses to call himself a physician. This is because there are people out there that when they hear "physician" assume that means they went to medical school. He has told me of multiple cases where this has caused confusion. Just the other day he was telling me how he heard of this one chiro who had a patient ask him about some blood pressure medicine he was on. Well the chiro told him that he didnt need and to take some herb instead. The guy ended up having a heart attack and dying a month or so afteward. This is a worst case scenerio. There are many chiros (& other docs) out there that would have told this man that it was out of their expertise and told them to go talk to their MD/DO. However, there are some out there that don't know their limitations and sadly, it is normally the ones who call themselves "chiropractic physicians" who are the culprits.
 
fun8stuff said:
Just the other day he was telling me how he heard of this one chiro who had a patient ask him about some blood pressure medicine he was on. Well the chiro told him that he didnt need and to take some herb instead. The guy ended up having a heart attack and dying a month or so afteward. This is a worst case scenerio. There are many chiros (& other docs) out there that would have told this man that it was out of their expertise and told them to go talk to their MD/DO.

Very sad... I think in most (if not all) states, chiropractors do not have the authority to take patients off meds as that would fall under the ability to prescribe medications which chiropractors are not licensed to do.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
It hasn't always been this way, GPs (General Practitioners, MDs with only an internship after graduation) used to be quite common. Now, they are almost impossible to find. A minimum of 3 years post-graduate is required to actually practice medicine with all the proper licensing and insurance.

Not true.

An MD/DO who completes an accredited internship can obtain licensure and insurance for a general practice or something similar.

Know a dude that was a surgery intern, finished the internship, decided against categorical surgery residency, and now has a successful weight loss clinic/general practice.

Not done alot anymore with the move towards board certifications, but can still be done.

Additionally, military flight surgeons are typically GMOs (general medical officers) who have completed only an internship, and yet are the MD in charge of the health of all the pilots in whatever wing he has been assigned.
 
jetproppilot said:
An MD/DO who completes an accredited internship can obtain licensure and insurance for a general practice or something similar.

True, but not in every state. Most have only a one year requirement, but several have two-year requirements, and one state has a three-year requirement. In many states the one-year requirement is only for US graduates, with a three-year requirement for FMG's.
 
awdc said:
Very sad... I think in most (if not all) states, chiropractors do not have the authority to take patients off meds as that would fall under the ability to prescribe medications which chiropractors are not licensed to do.

Actually, Oregon is the only state where "de-prescription" is legal by chiropractors. In the remaining 49 states, the chiropractors can advise that the patient speak to their MD/DO about stopping a medication. Now that is a fine line, and we all know that many patients will never actually hear the "but go talk to your doctor" caveat, but to be legal that has to be said.

- H
 
jetproppilot said:
Not true.

An MD/DO who completes an accredited internship can obtain licensure and insurance for a general practice or something similar.

Licensure in some states but very few. Insurance priced low enough to do business anywhere, extremely rare, and becoming more so.

jetproppilot said:
Know a dude that was a surgery intern, finished the internship, decided against categorical surgery residency, and now has a successful weight loss clinic/general practice.

Not done alot anymore with the move towards board certifications, but can still be done.

According to my health policy professor (this was 9 years ago in undergrad) less than 1% of all practicing physicians outside of the military have not completed residency. I'm sure that number is even less now. Less than 1% is comparable (I would imagine) to the number of practicing chiropractors remaining from unaccredited chiropractic colleges like Mecca. The argument that a very rarely used and difficult to execute loophole exists doesn't indict all of MD/DO education.

jetproppilot said:
Additionally, military flight surgeons are typically GMOs (general medical officers) who have completed only an internship, and yet are the MD in charge of the health of all the pilots in whatever wing he has been assigned.

Same with the Army and Navy. It is a loophole that is the result of many historical factors and one not likely to be closed soon. The only "good" part about it is that these officers are only seeing the soldiers (by definition more healthy than the average person) not their dependents. Almost all of these GMOs (there are two in my residency program) go on to complete residencies after their military service. They only serve as GPs when they are serving, they are NOT sub-specialists, and they report directly to board-certified physicians in their direct chain of command. One of my classmates refers to his time as a GMO as "back when I was a PA..." :laugh:

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
Actually, Oregon is the only state where "de-prescription" is legal by chiropractors. In the remaining 49 states, the chiropractors can advise that the patient speak to their MD/DO about stopping a medication. Now that is a fine line, and we all know that many patients will never actually hear the "but go talk to your doctor" caveat, but to be legal that has to be said.

- H

i have a hard time understanding why they can do this when they have no training in pharmacology. what is oregon thinking?
 
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