Is it possible to be a surgeon but let others do the postop care?

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Misterioso

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Is it possible to be a general surgeon who mostly operates and turfs the postop care to other doctor(s)? Maybe only being called back if there is an emergency that requires surgery.

I know the old saying that operating is only part of being a surgeon, yada, yada...but is it possible to tailor your practice in such a way?
 
Misterioso said:
Is it possible to be a general surgeon who mostly operates and turfs the postop care to other doctor(s)? Maybe only being called back if there is an emergency that requires surgery.

I know the old saying that operating is only part of being a surgeon, yada, yada...but is it possible to tailor your practice in such a way?
true general surg, i dunno.

but there are options for you....
ortho. they focus on bones - boneheads.
or endocrine. very very smart - and MOST is elective. or at least schedule-able....

with general, real GENERAL, it's hard.

you could also consider plastics. or any specialty where your patients go home within a day or so.
that will set you up - so think about SurgiCenter cases.

elective-like.
 
Misterioso said:
Is it possible to be a general surgeon who mostly operates and turfs the postop care to other doctor(s)? Maybe only being called back if there is an emergency that requires surgery.

I know the old saying that operating is only part of being a surgeon, yada, yada...but is it possible to tailor your practice in such a way?


The surgeon that turf’s a post-op care of patient is not considered a SURGEON in the classical definition. A Surgeon invest so much in pre-op and intra-op management that you do not want to give up the post-op care to other “idiots”. This is the hallmark of a true surgeon. And not neglect your post-op complications to other. A small change in management in the post-op care can make the difference of life and death. So the answer is absolutely NO!
 
Let's not get caught up in the definition of a true surgeon or whatever, since every other person has their own definition of what a true surgeon is (i.e. some don't think ophthalmologists are true surgeons, others don't think orthopods are true surgeons, etc).

I'm interested in knowing if it's possible to mainly operate and leave most of the postop to other doctors. geekgirl mentioned SurgiCenters...I did a quick search and found lots of them to be open 9-5 or thereabouts with a 24-hour postop facility. Does anybody know what kind of general surgery cases are mostly done at SurgiCenters and who handles the postop?
 
Yeah, it is called attending. he operates, and residents take care of patients. In all seriosness though, it is you are a doctor, not just a technician and should take care of paients, not just cut.
 
Misterioso said:
Does anybody know what kind of general surgery cases are mostly done at SurgiCenters and who handles the postop?

to answer your question - lumps & bumps, hernias, lap choles.

but to echo the other sentiments, please do not become a general surgeon if your attitude is to turf your post-op patients to other physicians. makes my skin crawl. consider ortho instead.
 
Most surgeons will refuse to handle other surgeons' post-op complications.
 
Turfing YOUR post-operative patient to someone without SURGICAL training is a very sad way to run a practice. It's not fair to your patients. Please don't become a surgeon if that is what you're worried about.
 
Though some people do more outpatient/ "small" procedures which means less in-house, very sick patients, there still usually is ER call, clinic, etc; lots of things that keep you busy.

Pre and post-operative care are integral parts of being able to make good intra-op decisions; plus, you want to be able to follow your work through, educate the patient on their diagnosis, recovery, what further care they need, etc.

There is no getting around working extremely hard if you want to be a good surgeon.
 
Misterioso said:
Let's not get caught up in the definition of a true surgeon or whatever, since every other person has their own definition of what a true surgeon is (i.e. some don't think ophthalmologists are true surgeons, others don't think orthopods are true surgeons, etc).

I'm interested in knowing if it's possible to mainly operate and leave most of the postop to other doctors. geekgirl mentioned SurgiCenters...I did a quick search and found lots of them to be open 9-5 or thereabouts with a 24-hour postop facility. Does anybody know what kind of general surgery cases are mostly done at SurgiCenters and who handles the postop?

The quality of surgeons and the quality surgical care in this country will gradually get worse and worse over time, if the "TRUE SURGEONS" adapt your approach to post-op care.

But then again, you may have a point that with these 80 hours work week ----- the potential is there for turfing post-op care to others.
 
Pedsurgdoc said:
But then again, you may have a point that with these 80 hours work week ----- the potential is there for turfing post-op care to others.

Not as an attending. No 80-hour workweek regulations there. 🙂
 
Not positive it is true, but I heard that at Mayo hosp, all surgical patients are followed by the internal medicine team for routine medical care, with the surgeons managing wound and potential complication stuff. Anyone else hear this?
 
The_Id said:
Not positive it is true, but I heard that at Mayo hosp, all surgical patients are followed by the internal medicine team for routine medical care, with the surgeons managing wound and potential complication stuff. Anyone else hear this?

What is the difference between that and getting Infectious disease, Renal, Pulmonary, endocrinology, Hematology, Rheumatology…consult. I think surgeons throughout the country are doing this, partly for medical legal reasons --- or out of laziness.

There is no way getting around the fact that a True Surgeon has to answer to (or be responsible for) the good and the bad things he/she goes in the OR. This model is good for the surgical profession and good for patient care.
 
The_Id said:
Not positive it is true, but I heard that at Mayo hosp, all surgical patients are followed by the internal medicine team for routine medical care, with the surgeons managing wound and potential complication stuff. Anyone else hear this?


That sounds like what I was talking about, and a prestigious place like Mayo doing it. I don't see what the big fuss is if other doctor(s) handle the routine postop management and the surgeon takes care of any complications that require surgery.
 
I think there is a big difference between routine post-op care and having another team following along both from a monetary and ethical standpoint.

As a surgeon, your fee includes pre-op through the end of the global period (for major surgeries up to 30 days post-op). This includes all the rounding, office visits, etc. (with some exceptions that I won't go into right now). To routine turf out things you can handle is then a little suspect reimbursement wise. The model for this is the splitting of the global fee between ophthalmogists and optometists when one does the operation and the other does the post-operative care (last I checked, it got split 80/20, but that probably has changed)

Likewise the American College of Surgeons has defined a code of conduct which I will list below.

Now I think having another team (e.g. a severe CHF patient that has a cardiology team or their general internist that knows them following, etc.) is probably encouraged. And perhaps if the resources were available, having a general internist that knows them keeping an eye out for other issues that might not rise to a surgeon's notice would not diminish care. However, it is still ultimately the surgeon's responsibility to monitor the overall well-being of the patient. His or her operation is going to cause a certain amount of physiologic insult and it is the surgeon who was in doing the operation that knows what the level of concern should be. To voluntarily walk away wholly from the patient and wait to be called back is probably to be derelict in duty, unless you can arrange to have another person of equal knowledge to cover you (e.g. when you are on vacation). Having said this, I do know of a number of private practice surgeons that do use internists for their routine medical care of their post-operative patients, only managing the drains and diet and wounds.


From: http://www.facs.org/fellows_info/statements/stonprin.html#anchor173119

E. Postoperative Care
The responsibility for the patient's postoperative care rests primarily with the operating surgeon. The emergence of critical care specialists has provided important support in the management of patients with complicated systemic problems. It is important, however, that the operating surgeon maintain a critical role in directing the care of the patient. When the patient's postoperative course necessitates the involvement of other specialists, it may be necessary to transfer the primary responsibility for the patient's care to another physician. In such cases, the operating surgeon continues to be involved in the care of the patient until surgical issues have resolved. Except in unusual circumstances, it is unethical for a surgeon to relinquish the responsibility for the postoperative surgical care to any other physician who is not qualified to provide similar surgical care.

If the operating surgeon must be absent during a portion of the critical postoperative period, coverage should be provided by another surgeon who is skilled and who can render surgical care—including reoperation, if necessary—equivalent to that provided by the surgeon who performed the operation. The patient should be informed about this arrangement in advance.

The surgeon's responsibility extends throughout the surgical illness. When this period has ended, it is appropriate for the surgeon to relinquish the responsibility for management of the patient. When a patient is ready for discharge from the surgeon's care, it may be appropriate to transfer the day to day care to another physician.
 
Misterioso said:
Is it possible to be a general surgeon who mostly operates and turfs the postop care to other doctor(s)? Maybe only being called back if there is an emergency that requires surgery.

I know the old saying that operating is only part of being a surgeon, yada, yada...but is it possible to tailor your practice in such a way?

Yep, it's possible - it's called academic medicine. During a rotation I completed at Big Cheese Hospital, the attendings on one service were notorious for operating a ton, then abandoning the patients with the expectation that the residents would field any complications. They weren't remotely interested in their patients' wellbeing, or even the outcome of their efforts.

The truth is, this is a lousy way to treat your patients. Although to you a lap chole is just another case, to the patient undergoing the op, it's a huge deal. These patients are scared and need to place their trust in the one responsible for their lives during that short period on the table. When you dump them onto someone else after the operation's over b/c, well, you just don't care about that "postop stuff," you're betraying that trust.

I can't tell you how many times during the aforementioned rotation I was the recipient of distressed comments from patients whose attendings had dumped them off. One wasn't convinced that the attending had even done the operation, since he didn't visit her immediately pre-op, didn't stick around for her to come out of anesthesia, and never checked up on her in the days that followed. For all she knew, ExtraCrispy the lowly med student had completed the operation, since I was the only person she ever saw consistently. These patients don't seek out a big-name attending so that a med student or resident - still learnin - can manage them throughout. They want an experienced doctor they can trust, who will ACT like their doctor for the duration of their stay in the hospital.

So yeah, it's possible. But I've no idea why you'd want to do your patients such a disservice.
 
Misterioso said:
That sounds like what I was talking about, and a prestigious place like Mayo doing it. I don't see what the big fuss is if other doctor(s) handle the routine postop management and the surgeon takes care of any complications that require surgery.


You can let the medical service keep an eye on the Finger stick, Tylenol dosing, patient’s concerns ---i.e. hospital food, whether or not the TV works. But everything else related to patient’s outcome (i.e. morbidity and mortality) should be taken care-of by the Surgeon.


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The OP's question and subsequent answers don't address the fact that regardless of who providdes post-op care, the surgeon who performed the operation is legally, and more importantly, ethically responsible for that patient's post-op well-being.

Personally I am not comfortable relegating the bulk of post-op care to other physicians. But if you choose to "turf" out this care to consultants or the "ICU team", make sure you are comfortable with these physicians, and that you trust them. And understand that it will still be your name on a lawsuit.
 
Celiac Plexus said:
The OP's question and subsequent answers don't address the fact that regardless of who providdes post-op care, the surgeon who performed the operation is legally, and more importantly, ethically responsible for that patient's post-op well-being.

Personally I am not comfortable relegating the bulk of post-op care to other physicians. But if you choose to "turf" out this care to consultants or the "ICU team", make sure you are comfortable with these physicians, and that you trust them. And understand that it will still be your name on a lawsuit.

Don't lawyers usually go after every doctor who's on board the patient's care in order to maximize their chances, instead of going after just one doctor?
 
You know this is a huge issue and the ACS president to be talked about this and the changing paradigm amoungst the 80 hr/wk'ers...

After all the interviews I have gone on, I have never been more convinced that general surgery is where I am supposed to be. The reason: We are supposed to be the ones that can fix and treat nearly all that ails our patients. We are supposed to be the medicine doc that operates. We take pride in our hard work and our wonderful outcomes. We own our mistakes and work to let them not happen again. I thought patient ownership was kinda a HUGE foundation of general surgery. I would hate to spend 5 years of my life with folks that honestly don't give a **** about this or view surgery with such a flippant attitude.

As has been stated before by Flite surgeon and the like... if you want a lifestyle job and don't give a **** about patient care...

Surgery is not for you.
 
solstice118 said:
You know this is a huge issue and the ACS president to be talked about this and the changing paradigm amoungst the 80 hr/wk'ers...

After all the interviews I have gone on, I have never been more convinced that general surgery is where I am supposed to be. The reason: We are supposed to be the ones that can fix and treat nearly all that ails our patients. We are supposed to be the medicine doc that operates. We take pride in our hard work and our wonderful outcomes. We own our mistakes and work to let them not happen again. I thought patient ownership was kinda a HUGE foundation of general surgery. I would hate to spend 5 years of my life with folks that honestly don't give a **** about this or view surgery with such a flippant attitude.

As has been stated before by Flite surgeon and the like... if you want a lifestyle job and don't give a **** about patient care...

Surgery is not for you.


Ease up on the melodrama Captain Hero.

Nobody said anything about not caring about patient care. At the same time not all of us want to sell our lives to our careers and be just another walking cliche of a surgeon. It's funny how everybody emphasizes "team care" of patients, but then it turns into patient "ownership" at the drop of a hat.
 
Misterioso said:
Ease up on the melodrama Captain Hero.

Nobody said anything about not caring about patient care. At the same time not all of us want to sell our lives to our careers and be just another walking cliche of a surgeon. It's funny how everybody emphasizes "team care" of patients, but then it turns into patient "ownership" at the drop of a hat.


For a change I may have to agree with Mysteriono. The heart of all things in this capitalistic society is Money and Time. At one point Surgeons had the Money and no Time. But now, when the starting salary for a surgeon is the same as internal medicine ($115,000.00); --- A lot of surgeons young and old want more Time. Which translates to less post-op patient care. Unfortunately, this is the reality of health care in this country.
 
surg said:
As a surgeon, your fee includes pre-op through the end of the global period (for major surgeries up to 30 days post-op). This includes all the rounding, office visits, etc. (with some exceptions that I won't go into right now).
The global period for most operations is actually 90 days.
 
NJ-MDdoc said:
the starting salary for a surgeon is the same as internal medicine ($115,000.00
The lowest offer I've seen is $160k. The average is around $200k. The highest I've seen for a starting salary guarantee was $400k.
 
solstice118 said:
You know this is a huge issue and the ACS president to be talked about this and the changing paradigm amoungst the 80 hr/wk'ers...

After all the interviews I have gone on, I have never been more convinced that general surgery is where I am supposed to be. The reason: We are supposed to be the ones that can fix and treat nearly all that ails our patients. We are supposed to be the medicine doc that operates. We take pride in our hard work and our wonderful outcomes. We own our mistakes and work to let them not happen again. I thought patient ownership was kinda a HUGE foundation of general surgery. I would hate to spend 5 years of my life with folks that honestly don't give a **** about this or view surgery with such a flippant attitude.

As has been stated before by Flite surgeon and the like... if you want a lifestyle job and don't give a **** about patient care...

Surgery is not for you.
beautifully said.
 
FliteSurgn said:
The global period for most operations is actually 90 days.
You are absolutely right. My brain must have slipped a gear.

By the way, a quick google search turned up this interpretation of Medicare regs on what is included in the global period.
http://www.gamedicare.com/newspubs/May00/50.htm
 
FliteSurgn said:
The lowest offer I've seen is $160k. The average is around $200k. The highest I've seen for a starting salary guarantee was $400k.


With low insurance reimbursement and high malpractice, at least in the East Coast and West Coast; The starting salary is between $115,000.00 to $160,000.00 (this starting salary is only true for high-high volume surgery). ( A friend of mine was offered $125,000.00 to start in Connecticut!!) A lot of surgeon will tell you $200,000.00 and $300,000.00 figure, to maintain self-respect. I am only telling you the reality.

Take a look at medical economics, In some areas Internal medicine make more than surgeon, Then the question is why wake up in the middle of the night to take care of post-op patients, when medicine doctor can take care of them at least until the morning.


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FliteSurgn said:
The lowest offer I've seen is $160k. The average is around $200k. The highest I've seen for a starting salary guarantee was $400k.


With low insurance reimbursement and high malpractice, at least in the East Coast and West Coast; The starting salary is between $115,000.00 to $160,000.00 (this starting salary is only true for high-high volume surgery). (A friend of mine was offered $125,000.00 to start in Connecticut!!) A lot of surgeon will tell you $200,000.00 and $300,000.00 figure, to maintain self-respect. I am only telling you the reality.

Take a look at medical economics, In some areas Internal medicine make more than surgeon, Then the question is why wake up in the middle of the night to take care of post-op patients, when medicine doctor can take care of them at least until the morning.







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Results of medical exam are under investigation
Monday, September 26, 2005
BY ANGELA STEWART
Star-Ledger Staff
The American Board of Surgery is investigating allegations that doctors at Morristown Memorial Hospital were given the questions and answers to the 2005 national board examination prior to the test.
 
Misterioso said:
Ease up on the melodrama Captain Hero.

Nobody said anything about not caring about patient care. At the same time not all of us want to sell our lives to our careers and be just another walking cliche of a surgeon. It's funny how everybody emphasizes "team care" of patients, but then it turns into patient "ownership" at the drop of a hat.

Melodrama... Yeah, I guess I got caught up in the misunderstanding of your use of the word turf. Ya have to admit it has nasty connotation.
And alright alright... you're right. I will be the overprotective pr**k who will who will be heavily involved in my patient's care. I will not be "selling my life to my career" but I can see how you might view it as that... Really the only thing I want to clear up is that I wasn't implying that "surgeon patient ownership" is different from "team care", as in surgery team care. It's not and it isn't productive or possible to be the "one man captain-hero-service", tho it sounds nice 🙂. Surgery is a team sport. Another reason why it rocks and if your partner on call, your resident, your <insert practice ideal> takes over while you are off then that is still within your realm/team/practice and you still own your patient and all the complications/triumphs that go along.

Also, you talk about turning into some cliche... having another service care for post-op care feeds the stereotype that we don't think and all we are capable of doing is cutting.

F*** that. That's not how I roll. 😉
 
NJ-MDdoc said:
With low insurance reimbursement and high malpractice, at least in the East Coast and West Coast; The starting salary is between $115,000.00 to $160,000.00 (this starting salary is only true for high-high volume surgery). (A friend of mine was offered $125,000.00 to start in Connecticut!!) A lot of surgeon will tell you $200,000.00 and $300,000.00 figure, to maintain self-respect. I am only telling you the reality.

Take a look at medical economics, In some areas Internal medicine make more than surgeon, Then the question is why wake up in the middle of the night to take care of post-op patients, when medicine doctor can take care of them at least until the morning.







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I don't know how it is around the country and in the NE it might be different cause of saturation but I have friends that are recent graduates of SE programs and started off 240 K in the Ft-Laudy area and 260 K in the Orlando area. That's what they are making in Private practice just out.

Maybe two rare examples but when I went to Jersey for an interview after I was berated for asking too many questions about surg onc or peds surg matching/training post their program (?! amazing huh?) he proceeded to tell me that all of his gen surg graduates get offers in the 250-300s. Granted this must be inflated... but there is a huge difference between 115 and 250-300. NJ-MDdoc, is it possible that this was an outlier during your friends job search?
 
solstice118 said:
I don't know how it is around the country and in the NE it might be different cause of saturation but I have friends that are recent graduates of SE programs and started off 240 K in the Ft-Laudy area and 260 K in the Orlando area. That's what they are making in Private practice just out.

Maybe two rare examples but when I went to Jersey for an interview after I was berated for asking too many questions about surg onc or peds surg matching/training post their program (?! amazing huh?) he proceeded to tell me that all of his gen surg graduates get offers in the 250-300s. Granted this must be inflated... but there is a huge difference between 115 and 250-300. NJ-MDdoc, is it possible that this was an outlier during your friends job search?


Like any work force, a surgeon has to provide the revenues. The insurance companies do not care how long you have trained to get where you are as a surgeon &#61664; Therefore, they are getting away with paying less and less each year. Which translates to less pay for the surgeon. The insurance company identifies all doctors and surgeons as “provider”, no difference form Physician Assistant provider or Nurse Practitioner provider. This has resulted with less revenue and in combination with high malpractice ----&#61664; Less money for surgeons, unless you are doing high volume (20 to 30 cases a week!). This is the reality of surgical practice.


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Results of medical exam are under investigation
Monday, September 26, 2005
BY ANGELA STEWART
Star-Ledger Staff
In addition, the board of surgery is withholding exam results from eight graduates of the hospital's training program who took the test Aug. 10.

The probe, which began in mid-August, focuses on the hospital's surgical training department and the facility's director of surgery, Rolando Rolandelli, according to Robert Rhodes, associate executive director of the board.

Morristown officials say they are cooperating with the investigation, which they believe will clear the program and Rolandelli of wrongdoing.
 
I think the OP should consider interventional radiology. Those guys do some surprisingly invasive stuff (permanent IV access, AV grafts, embolizations, aneurysms, aorto-fem grafts) and have zero involvement beyond the actual procedure. I can appreciate a lot of the posts about surgeons wanting to taking ownership of their patients, but in my internship (anesthesiology intern doing a lot of ICU months) at a major academic institution, I see a ton of turfs to MICU and hear a lot of things like, "this patient no longer has surgical issues, so we'll be signing off." Not sure how typical this elsewhere.
 
cchoukal said:
I think the OP should consider interventional radiology. Those guys do some surprisingly invasive stuff (permanent IV access, AV grafts, embolizations, aneurysms, aorto-fem grafts) and have zero involvement beyond the actual procedure. I can appreciate a lot of the posts about surgeons wanting to taking ownership of their patients, but in my internship (anesthesiology intern doing a lot of ICU months) at a major academic institution, I see a ton of turfs to MICU and hear a lot of things like, "this patient no longer has surgical issues, so we'll be signing off." Not sure how typical this elsewhere.

Good point. I often wondered when the IR guys would face a rebellion and be forced to develop their own service.

As to the "no longer has surgical issues transfer, I have seen that a fair bit with specialty surgeons and less with general surgeons (though I wouldn't say never), but maybe that's just my experience.
 
cchoukal said:
I think the OP should consider interventional radiology. Those guys do some surprisingly invasive stuff (permanent IV access, AV grafts, embolizations, aneurysms, aorto-fem grafts) and have zero involvement beyond the actual procedure. I can appreciate a lot of the posts about surgeons wanting to taking ownership of their patients, but in my internship (anesthesiology intern doing a lot of ICU months) at a major academic institution, I see a ton of turfs to MICU and hear a lot of things like, "this patient no longer has surgical issues, so we'll be signing off." Not sure how typical this elsewhere.


Before, in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s and even in the 90’s –Internal Medicine got paid @ $170.00 to do the pre-op screening and H&P (30 to 45 minute job) and the surgeon got paid @ $4,000.00 to $6,000.00 for a colon surgery. Now the surgeon is luck to see $600.00 to $800.00 and that is after begging the insurance companies for months. It’s not rocket science that over time surgeons will not cry-out patient “ownership”.


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Results of medical exam are under investigation
Monday, September 26, 2005
BY ANGELA STEWART
Star-Ledger Staff
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=251592
The probe, which began in mid-August, focuses on the hospital's surgical training department and the facility's director of surgery, Rolando Rolandelli, according to Robert Rhodes, associate executive director of the board.
 
surg said:
Good point. I often wondered when the IR guys would face a rebellion and be forced to develop their own service.

As to the "no longer has surgical issues transfer, I have seen that a fair bit with specialty surgeons and less with general surgeons (though I wouldn't say never), but maybe that's just my experience.

I've also wondered why IR doesn't have its own M&Ms - it should, since complications from G-tubes/J-tubes (perf'ed stomach or duodenum), etc. do happen occasionally.

I agree that typically, it tends to be services such as ortho, neurosurg, etc. that will only operate and then relate the "routine post-op care" to the primary team. In many cases, that's general surgery, especially for trauma patients - ortho will fix the femur, neurosurg may do a craniotomy, but then everything else is delegated to the G Surg team. In most cases, that just means babysitting the patient until they're ready for D/C home.
 
cchoukal said:
I think the OP should consider interventional radiology. Those guys do some surprisingly invasive stuff (permanent IV access, AV grafts, embolizations, aneurysms, aorto-fem grafts) and have zero involvement beyond the actual procedure. I can appreciate a lot of the posts about surgeons wanting to taking ownership of their patients, but in my internship (anesthesiology intern doing a lot of ICU months) at a major academic institution, I see a ton of turfs to MICU and hear a lot of things like, "this patient no longer has surgical issues, so we'll be signing off." Not sure how typical this elsewhere.

I think in order for IR to survive, they are changing into a clinical specialty, seeing their own patients, admitting them, fixing them, doing post-op and discharging them. I don't think IR will only be a procedural specialty anymore and this is why it is not a competitive specialty right now - people who go into radiology don't want the hassles of patient care.
 
As a peds residents who get the "dumps" from surgery all the time, I'm glad to see that there are at least some of you surgeons/future surgeons out there who are willing to take responsibility for your patients instead of trying to get someone else to do it. Pediatricians and Internists are not the only ones who can add K to fluids and check fingersticks glucoses, you guys went to med school too!
 
fourthyearmed said:
As a peds residents who get the "dumps" from surgery all the time, I'm glad to see that there are at least some of you surgeons/future surgeons out there who are willing to take responsibility for your patients instead of trying to get someone else to do it. Pediatricians and Internists are not the only ones who can add K to fluids and check fingersticks glucoses, you guys went to med school too!

“Responsibility for your patients” &#61664; At what point are they your patients and at what point are they not your patients, these are relative terms. They are your patient when the cost-to-time spent ratio is high and they are not your patient when the cost-to-time spent ratio is very low.

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Results of medical exam are under investigation
Monday, September 26, 2005
BY ANGELA STEWART
Star-Ledger Staff
Rolandelli came to Morristown in January 2003 from Temple University in Philadelphia, where he was program director of surgery. That same year, all four of Rolandelli's Morristown graduates failed the written portion of the board exam.
 
I had interviewed at Morristown about a month and half ago. I do not think the residents in the program know about this investigation. The program should have notified the incoming interns/residents. This sound very serious problem. Am I crazy in thinking they should have told us about this?! What other programs have this kind of problem that I don’t know about?
 
Ohio said:
I had interviewed at Morristown about a month and half ago. I do not think the residents in the program know about this investigation. The program should have notified the incoming interns/residents. This sound very serious problem. Am I crazy in thinking they should have told us about this?! What other programs have this kind of problem that I don’t know about?

You can’t be overly paranoid. If you are going to rank a program, call the current residents and ask. The info will help you and lack there of will speak volumes.
 
Here's the difference. If I get the OP point, he/she is going into an operation with the intent of letting someone else take care of his patients. On the other hand, we often consult on things that we are less adept at handling like a patient with a hypercoagulable state. I find it appropriate to ask for help when things are way out of your scope. Every surgeon is not equipped with the knowledge to handle a patient with complex DM. Remember, it is all about pt care! Get my point?
Pedsurgdoc said:
What is the difference between that and getting Infectious disease, Renal, Pulmonary, endocrinology, Hematology, Rheumatology…consult. I think surgeons throughout the country are doing this, partly for medical legal reasons --- or out of laziness.

There is no way getting around the fact that a True Surgeon has to answer to (or be responsible for) the good and the bad things he/she goes in the OR. This model is good for the surgical profession and good for patient care.
 
Misterioso said:
Is it possible to be a general surgeon who mostly operates and turfs the postop care to other doctor(s)? Maybe only being called back if there is an emergency that requires surgery.

I know the old saying that operating is only part of being a surgeon, yada, yada...but is it possible to tailor your practice in such a way?

In my country, If you perform a surgery, the post-op is included in the fees of the surgery... so the hospital/patient pays the surgeon for the surgery and ALL of the post-op visits that are requiered. (applies for gral surgery and all other specialities). Handling the post op to other (when you are getting paid for it) would not be very attractive for the patient.


apart from that, I think that what you propose is really scary... that kind of treatment would turn general surgeons into butchers... 😀
 
NJ-MDdoc said:
With low insurance reimbursement and high malpractice, at least in the East Coast and West Coast; The starting salary is between $115,000.00 to $160,000.00 (this starting salary is only true for high-high volume surgery). ( A friend of mine was offered $125,000.00 to start in Connecticut!!) A lot of surgeon will tell you $200,000.00 and $300,000.00 figure, to maintain self-respect. I am only telling you the reality.
Well, I'm telling you my reality. The contracts that I have personally reviewed are in the range that I gave. The difference in compensation is also greatly influenced by overhead. Most multispecialty groups will subtract anywhere from 35-55% off the top of the amount you actually collect from the patients and their insurers. On the other hand, you can get into a single specialty group that holds their costs down and make a lot more while working the same amount. My future practice in the Midwest averages 11% for overhead and all of the general surgeons clear $500k+ after expenses.
 
PedsurgDoc.... you must therefore believe that the Mayo surgeons (rochester Mayo) are not "true surgeons". They provide only true surgical management but don't get bogged down in post-operative non-surgical management of their patients. Do you know what happened? their outcomes improved!!!

Why should the surgeon be expected to manage a patient with diabetic, renal and cardiac issues post-operatively that aren't linked to the surgery itself, when that same surgeon spends most of their day in the OR?

Most of you guys aren't out in the real world, and so all of your statements represent what you observe in medical school or during residency/fellowship.... The surgeons I work with only are interested in operating and getting through their clinic as efficiently as possible. Any patient with even the most minute medical problem gets managed by a medicine team and they (the surgeons) remain available for post-operative SURGICAL complications.

It is funny how during residency surgical residents get this mentality that they know everything about everything... Arguably, they do know more than most residents at similar PGY level. And that mentality disappears as soon as they are in private practice.... Plus you can't be a dickhead to the family medicine people anymore since they are your #1 referral source.

Word to the Wise: regarding starting salaries (and this is applicable to all fields of medicine that are procedure oriented).
Don't be falsely swayed by starting salaries. Often the higher starting salaries are higher for a reason 1) the group is going to screw you when you become a partner 2) the group is miserable/malignant and can't find anybody to help unload their patient burden/call coverage 3) the place sucks and nobody wants to live there.....
I would much rather have a starting salaryof 160K/year if I know that as a partner in 2 years I will be pulling in 1,000,000$/year after overhead... Instead of a starting salary of 400,000 if at best I can only make 600,000 per year as partner...
This is something that is crucial for future contract seekers. You need to know what kind of income you can generate and be realistic about your job opportunities. If you can do 6 lap. choles, 3 colectomies, 2 hepatic segmentectomies and 2 bed-side trachs between 7am and 6pm (like a guy I know at MGH) then you should expect to generate a lot of income during your practice. If you are the guy/gal I know who can only do 2 Vag. Hysterectomies in a day then you should expect to make very little money....


oh and solstice... your pre-pubescent/idealistic/utopic view of surgery will change as you mature as a surgeon. Most surgeons do surgery because they love having their hands inside somebody and fixing things with those hands. Most general surgeons don't go into surgery so they can order sliding scale insulin, titrate metoprolol for somebody in a.fib, or manage addiction problems.
 
how is it possible to do 6 lap choles, 3 colectomies, 2 hepatic segmentectomies, and 2 bedside trachs in only 11 hours? does he just supervise the residents? i don't see how anyone can do that much alone, from start to finish for all those procedures. even at shouldice, a hernia repair takes 45 minutes from start to finish, and that's a simple procedure. but 3 colectomies and 2 liver resections on top of 6 choles and 2 trachs???

also, what kind of operations are these people doing to earn a million a year as a general surgeon? i would have thought that the upper limit is much less.
 
footcramp said:
how is it possible to do 6 lap choles, 3 colectomies, 2 hepatic segmentectomies, and 2 bedside trachs in only 11 hours?
The key to that kind of volume is good OR turnover and/or being allowed to stagger rooms. Without efficient OR support, you have a hard time getting anything done. For example, my average time for a lap chole is 15-20 minutes, but the OR turnover in my current locale is horrible and they won't stagger rooms. So, even though I can do a gallbladder every 20 minutes, the turnover time is going to be about an hour before I can get to the next case. With that kind of support I'm really lucky if I can get 3 gallbladders knocked out by lunch.

Similarly, open colon resections can usually be done in 30 minutes or so. Bedside trachs (perc trachs, I assume) are fairly simple procedures that can easily be done between OR cases.

My personal best (at a much more efficient hospital): In 4 hours...lap Nissen, lap chole, lap ventral hernia, lap inguinal hernia, and an open sigmoid colon resection. 😎
 
FliteSurgn said:
The key to that kind of volume is good OR turnover and/or being allowed to stagger rooms. Without efficient OR support, you have a hard time getting anything done. For example, my average time for a lap chole is 15-20 minutes, but the OR turnover in my current locale is horrible and they won't stagger rooms. So, even though I can do a gallbladder every 20 minutes, the turnover time is going to be about an hour before I can get to the next case. With that kind of support I'm really lucky if I can get 3 gallbladders knocked out by lunch.

Similarly, open colon resections can usually be done in 30 minutes or so. Bedside trachs (perc trachs, I assume) are fairly simple procedures that can easily be done between OR cases.

My personal best (at a much more efficient hospital): In 4 hours...lap Nissen, lap chole, lap ventral hernia, lap inguinal hernia, and an open sigmoid colon resection. 😎
These times are hilarious. At Columbia a 3-5 hr lap chole is the norm, 2-3 hr hernias,5-6 hr colon resections... and the surgeons have the nerve to whine "anesthesia delay" when we take an extra 15-20 minutes at the beginning of a case for a fiberoptic intubation.
 
he staggers rooms but now uses the OR of the future at MGH which is designed around efficiency (ie: the patient goes to sleep in an induction room - gets wheeled into the OR - hook up to ventilator, prep, drape, operate - staples - pt off ventilator and brought to special recovery area where pt is extubated and moved on to PACU. While the staples were going in, the next patient is intubated in induction area, ready to be brought in - nothing (except for the OR beds) are on wheels so that means the floor can be swept clean in 2 minutes, and the ready-surgical packs are brought in.... My personal best is 12 cases from 7:30am to 5pm.... It is an exhausting day, because I put in epidurals for the liver, colon cases, so there is a lot of running back and forth. And this can of course only be done with 2 anesthesia providers (MD w/ CRNA or resident)... The surgical times that you guys are exposed to aren't consistent with the real world, and flitesurgeon is absolutely right. A straightforward lap chole shouldn't be longer than 20 minutes from trochar in to trochar out, etc...

the more money you generate for a hospital (ie: the more cases you do per day) the more likely that that hospital will give you 2 ORs to stagger.... the more money you generate the more likely that you can start dictating terms of turnover, hiring of staff, fast anesthesiologists, etcc.... hospitals only listen to the money-makers, cause the last thing they want to do is piss you off and send you packing to another hospital
 
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