Certificate vs. Masters in specialties

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enginerd

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I was just randomly looking at some dental school websites and stumbled upon the post-grad section and I noticed that for specialties there's a difference between a "Certificate of Advanced Graduate Study in (some specialty)" and "Doctor/Master of Science in Dentistry in (some specialty)?" I was pretty confused but why would anybody want a "Doctor/Masters" if we can just practice with a "certificate?"

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Hi there,

After you finish a specialty or GPR/AEGD program, you will be given a certificate (a diploma) certifying that you have completed such residency. For programs that 2 or more years in commitment, some offer a Masters Degree in addition to a certificate. This requires you to do a Thesis and defend it. It is very odd that additional training in dentistry resulted in a Masters degree which technically is lower than Doctor of Dental Surgery. Is it worth it to do a Masters? Well, if you plan to pursue a PhD in the future, you must have this MS first. Other than that, it does nothing for you other than couple addtional letters behind your DDS/DMD. DP
 
Dr. Dai Phan said:
It is very odd that additional training in dentistry resulted in a Masters degree which technically is lower than Doctor of Dental Surgery. Is it worth it to do a Masters? Well, if you plan to pursue a PhD in the future, you must have this MS first. Other than that, it does nothing for you other than couple addtional letters behind your DDS/DMD. DP


Actually it's not that odd, if you consider that medical and dental education has been around longer in the UK than the US. Traditionally the medical education model has been to first recieve an MBBS=MD or for dentistry a BDS=DDS.

Both a BDS (Bachelor of dental surgery) and a DDS (Doctor of dental surgery) are equivilent undergraduate dental degrees. They are both the first degree in the subject of "dentistry" that you can earn. Just depends on what country you obtain it. You then can puruse a Masters of Dentistry.

Similar also to law... In England you will recieve a LLB (bachlelor of Laws) which is the same as a JD degree (Juris doctor) in the states. They are both First degrees in Law and are equivlent. You then can puruse your LLM degree.

This has become confused in the US with the advent of calling professional degrees "doctorates" when technically they are not "doctorate level study" (a PhD is).

Just look at the field of Physical therapy. If you attended a physical therapy program in the US say 20 years ago you would have obtained a Bachlors of physical therapy. If you attended 10 years ago you would have obtained a Masters of physical therapy, and now the past couple of years they have started calling all the new physical therapy programs a DPT (doctorate of Physical therapy). But the curriculum is really no different, and at the end of the day.. guess what? Your stilll a physical therapist. :)

It has become confusing in the US, but historically as you can see the education model is origionally from the UK and they still retain the proper names for the level of education you recieve. :thumbup:
 
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Thank you for clarification! As you can see, it is very confusing in the States and also did some serious DISERVICE to one profession that is Pharmacy. 5-10 years ago, A Doctor of Pharmacy must require one addtional year or more?( very competitive to get in) after 4 year of phamarcy to be considered a "doctor". Now, most schools grant graduating students "Doctor of Pharmacy" or "Pharm. D" as the standard degree. Although the education is identical to both, a doctorate in phamarcy is much much more impressive than a bachelor. Nowadays, just look at the name tags of the people who work at Walgreens or Walmart, most if not all have Dr. so and so on their white coat.

In my case, when I graduated in 2000 with a Masters of Science in Dentistry degree (in prosthodontics), the gown I wear is from my Dental School with the three stripes (for Doctoral Degree) and ofcourse the hood is the colors of my Master Degree. Everyone in the Master Section look at me funny thinking that I had wear the wrong gown as "3 stripes" on the arms are for doctoral candidates only! But you are supposed to wear the gown of your previous degree so people are asking why this guy wears a Master Hood with a doctoral gown??? See the confusion? DP
 
Dr. Dai Phan said:
Thank you for clarification! As you can see, it is very confusing in the States and also did some serious DISERVICE to one profession that is Pharmacy. 5-10 years ago, A Doctor of Pharmacy must require one addtional year or more?( very competitive to get in) after 4 year of phamarcy to be considered a "doctor". Now, most schools grant graduating students "Doctor of Pharmacy" or "Pharm. D" as the standard degree. Although the education is identical to both, a doctorate in phamarcy is much much more impressive than a bachelor. Nowadays, just look at the name tags of the people who work at Walgreens or Walmart, most if not all have Dr. so and so on their white coat.
DP

Dr. DP,

The two degrees for pharmacy are NOT equivalent so you're really doing the disservice. The B.S. degree only involved two rotations and sometimes one elective, which were usually completed in 4 to 5 months. The PharmD curriculum requires at least 1 year of rotations, most of which are clinical in nature. Also, the curriculum itself has been changed for the PharmDs to include more clinical aspects of pharmacotherapy.

The post-BS PharmD was 2 years in length, not the 1 year that you stated!! The PharmD curriculum today reflects the old 3 year post-grad BS and 2 year PharmD degree. So just like dentists earn a doctorate in 4 years, pharmacists now earn a doctorate in the same amount of time. Also, just like in dentistry, many pharmacists complete 1 to 2 year residencies in clinical training. YES, that's 1 to 2 years after the 4 years for the PharmD after whatever time was required for undergraduate work.
 
Hello,

Thank you for clarification as I am not sure if it is one or more years after the 4 year bachelor of pharmacy for the Pharm D. I have many friends who are pharmacists and the ones who graduated 5-10 years ago or more indicated to me how unfair that nowadays, most schools grant the Pharm D. as the standard degree opposing to requiring additional training beyond the 4 year as in the past. When I go to Walgreens or the drug stores around the street, I see nothing except young kids with DR. XXX on their name tags. I do not know much about Pharmacy training so I am all ears... All I know is that many graduates in the pasts feel that they too should deserve the Doctoral degree like today's counterparts. They also told me that the curriculum for their 4 year Bachelor is identical to today's Pharm. D degree program. DP
 
Dr. Dai Phan said:
Hello,

Thank you for clarification as I am not sure if it is one or more years after the 4 year bachelor of pharmacy for the Pharm D. I have many friends who are pharmacists and the ones who graduated 5-10 years ago or more indicated to me how unfair that nowadays, most schools grant the Pharm D. as the standard degree opposing to requiring additional training beyond the 4 year as in the past. When I go to Walgreens or the drug stores around the street, I see nothing except young kids with DR. XXX on their name tags. I do not know much about Pharmacy training so I am all ears... All I know is that many graduates in the pasts feel that they too should deserve the Doctoral degree like today's counterparts. They also told me that the curriculum for their 4 year Bachelor is identical to today's Pharm. D degree program. DP

As a graduating pharmacist, I can tell you that I have heard the same arguments from the BS guys. The curriculum difference speaks for itself, and, frankly, I think the BS guys are jealous cuz they went to school for 5 years for a BS and we got to go for 6 years for a PharmD. There are many BS guys that also recognize that we have a lot more CLINICAL training than they have and we have to do project after project, things they simply did not do in their training. But again, the time committment speaks for itself. I don't know what young kids you're talking about Dr. DP. A 24 or 25 year old with a PharmD isn't that much different than a 25 year old with DMD or DDS. They may only be a year or 2 younger than the DDS or DMD guys because most 2+4 PharmD programs don't require the full four year BS or BA. You'll see the same thing with dentists too.
 
I actually have a funny story (at least to us) about the Masters in Dental Science degree. My husband received his DDS from UCSF in the late 1970's. He graduated on a beautiful day in June in SF, with much pomp & cirucumstance. The dental hygeine school grauduated at the same time with the dentists. After the appropriate & uplifting speeches, the Dean of the School of Dental Hygeinists got up to introduce the class..."will the candidates for the Bachelors Degree of Dental Hygeine please rise..." and the graduation went on. Very nice....

Then the Dean of the School of Dentistry got up, introduced the faculty, etc...etc..etc... - all very nice. Then he proceeded..."will the candidates for the Masters of Dental Science please rise...."....and no one stood up!!!! :eek: The Dean leaned over the podium and looked at the first two rows of the audience (the whole graduating dental class!!!) and said - "STAND UP - YOU ARE ALL GETTING A MASTERS!" He then went on to explain, about 2 years into dental school, they had all fulfilled the qualifications of Masters of Dental Science, so they were being awarded two degrees. No one knew they were getting it and it was a really meaningless degree in CA then...and now. Things may be different in other places of the world.

Well...it was funny at the time...and certainly worth another round of drinks to celebrate. But...altho his Masters of Dental Science hangs on the wall of his office, it does nothing to further his career as a dentist...

Now...as a pharmacist...I graduated at the same time as a Pharm.D. IMO - my degree from 1977 was no better nor no worse than other similarly clinically trained pharmacists at the time. The accreditation process has changed for training of pharmacists. Now the only degree offered is the Pharm.D. and this is the only degree since the late 1990's - a BS is no longer available. That is reflective of the amount of time it takes to learn the profession, not the value each of us brings to the profession. I have worked with pharmacists who have a BS degree with 30 years of experience who know far more than a Pharm.D degree with 5 years of experience. Its all in what you do with what you are presented with...IMO.
 
blotterspotter said:
So just like dentists earn a doctorate in 4 years, pharmacists now earn a doctorate in the same amount of time.

See.. this is where the real confusion lies. In the US.. a lot of professional programs including Physical therapy, Medicine, Dentistry, Pharmacy, Audiology, Occupational therapy, etc.. like to call their first degree a "doctorate", when it is in fact Not a real doctorate.

In the UK they have always kept to the fact that the First degree that you earn in ANY subject is called a "bachelors", The second degree you can earn in ANY subject is called a "Masters". and the 3rd and Highest degree you can earn in ANY subject is called a "Doctorate" ie. a PhD.

UK MBBS = US MD
UK BDS = US DDS
UK LLB = US JD
UK B.Optom = US OD
UK B.Aud. = US Dr.Aud
UK B.OT = US DOT
UK B.PT = US DPT
UK B.Pod = US DPM
UK B.Chiro = US DC
UK B.Pharm = US PharmD.

etc etc etc..

Then you can build on your first professional degree in Dentistry with a Masters of Dentistry degree.. and then a PhD in the subject.. etc.

This is historically the correct terminology in the majority of the worlds educational system as laid out by educators in the UK who founded most of the worlds first universities and medical schools. (Including those in the US)

But for many reasons today.. (a lot of them money driven and/or political or for marketing purposes) Many of the US professional schools have changed the title of their "first undergraduate degree" to a "doctorate". But this is technically incorrect terminology. :thumbup:
 
blotterspotter said:
I think the BS guys are jealous cuz they went to school for 5 years for a BS and we got to go for 6 years for a PharmD.

A 24 or 25 year old with a PharmD isn't that much different than a 25 year old with DMD or DDS. They may only be a year or 2 younger than the DDS or DMD guys because most 2+4 PharmD programs don't require the full four year BS or BA. You'll see the same thing with dentists too.

There are some medical and dental schools (and others) for that matter that condence their subject matter into longer or shorter periods.
Ie. UOP dental school in SanFran is 3 years and you get a DDS.
U Penn Dental school is 4 years and you get a DMD.
Newcastle Dental school is 5 years and you get a BDS.
McMaster Medical school is 3 years and you get a MD.
Harvard Medical school is 4 years and you get an MD.
Cambridge Medical school is 6 years and you get an MBBChir.
Australian National University is 4 years and you get an MBBS.


Also.. some schools have slightly different curriculums. (for example.. you might get almost 6 months more clinical experience in dental school at University of Nebraska than at Harvard dental.) or.. some use PBL and some are more didactic.


But at the end of the day. They are all equal licensed professionals within their respective fields with and they have the same scope of practice regardless what you call the degree.

Ie.. a doctor is a doctor. a dentist is a dentist, a pharm is a pharm.

Even if I have a "MBBS" (bachelor of medicine) I can take the US board exams and enter into a US training program and guess what. I can use my degree interchangeable with an MD and do the exact same things, because they are equivalent allopathic medical degrees.
Same goes for dentistry, pharm etc.

If any "extra time" is required to move from one country to another etc.. it is only because of politics and money, not because of any real differenece in the degree.
 
sdn1977 said:
The Dean leaned over the podium and looked at the first two rows of the audience (the whole graduating dental class!!!) and said - "STAND UP - YOU ARE ALL GETTING A MASTERS!" He then went on to explain, about 2 years into dental school, they had all fulfilled the qualifications of Masters of Dental Science, so they were being awarded two degrees. No one knew they were getting it and it was a really meaningless degree in CA then...and now.

Now...as a pharmacist...I graduated at the same time as a Pharm.D. IMO - my degree from 1977 was no better nor no worse than other similarly clinically trained pharmacists at the time. The accreditation process has changed for training of pharmacists. Now the only degree offered is the Pharm.D. and this is the only degree since the late 1990's - a BS is no longer available.

That is an interesting story. What subject in "dentistry" is his masters granted for? Never heard of that happening before. (Ie. I dont see how you can be granted a Masters of Dentistry before you complete your first entry level degree in dentistry ie. BDS, DDS, DMD.)
A "Masters in oral biology" could be an exception, because this could be a continuation of your Bachelor of biology degree for example.

As far as what you've stated about the pharmacy education. I agree with this. This is what I've been trying to point out. It's really just a "name change" the american schools have done, and has nothing to do with what you actually learn or don't learn. and has nothing to do with the actual level of education you recieve.

The first degree you recieve in any subject matter should technically be refered to as a Bachelors or at least a "First professional undergraduate degree".

For example. Even if you recieved a DDS or a "Doctor of dental surgery" in the US. If you say wanted to practice dentistry in Australia. You may be required to "upgrade" to the BDS degree in Australia. Just like they make you upgrade to the DDS in the US sometimes... or at least require some additional exams and time spent in an accredited dental program in that respective country.

Again, this has Nothing to do with level of education, but Everything to do with licensure and politics.

Australian upgrade program for foreign dentists
 
OzDDS said:
The first degree you recieve in any subject matter should technically be refered to as a Bachelors or at least a "First professional undergraduate degree".

Since many people who enter pharmacy school already have a bachelors degree, then the PharmD is their 2nd degree. Other people completed all the prerequisite courses but may not have gotten their bachelors, so the PharmD is their 1st degree. This would be a nightmare. I don't think that you can hand out two different degrees to two students who completed the same program.
 
dgroulx said:
Since many people who enter pharmacy school already have a bachelors degree, then the PharmD is their 2nd degree.

Other people completed all the prerequisite courses but may not have gotten their bachelors, so the PharmD is their 1st degree.

This would be a nightmare. I don't think that you can hand out two different degrees to two students who completed the same program.

No.. I agree that you shouldn't hand out two different degrees. That's not what I'm advocating.

Both students should recieve a "bachelors of Pharmacy". Because NEITHER one of them would have completed a previous degree in pharmacy.

A previous bachelor of biology doesnt count because this is technically a different scientific field. ....make sense?

Because for BOTH students, this will be their FIRST degree in the field of Pharmacy. Then Both students should recieve a degree titled Bachelor of Pharmacy



For example.. Let's say you have 2 students applying for medical school at the university of London. Both have previous bachelors degrees.. one has a degree in buisness and the other has a degree in chemistry. After they both graduate from medical school, they will BOTH recieve the Bachelor of Medicine Degree MBBS. Because for Both of them.. this is their first degree in the field of Medicine that either has recieved. After further study in medicine... they may be eligible for a Masters of Medicine and then upon more study may be eligible for a PhD.

Same for dentistry.. BDS, MDS, PhD.

Bachelors -> Masters -> Doctorate

Same for ANY subject you study, buisness, law, philosophy, etc etc.. ad. infinitum.


:thumbup:
 
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Sounds good to me.

OzDDS said:
No.. I agree that you shouldn't hand out two different degrees. That's not what I'm advocating.

Both students should recieve a "bachelors of Pharmacy". Because NEITHER one of them would have completed a previous degree in pharmacy.

A previous bachelor of biology doesnt count because this is technically a different scientific field. ....make sense?

Because for BOTH students, this will be their FIRST degree in the field of Pharmacy. Then Both students should recieve a degree titled Bachelor of Pharmacy



For example.. Let's say you have 2 students applying for medical school at the university of London. Both have previous bachelors degrees.. one has a degree in buisness and the other has a degree in chemistry. After they both graduate from medical school, they will BOTH recieve the Bachelor of Medicine Degree MBBS. Because for Both of them.. this is their first degree in the field of Medicine that either has recieved. After further study in medicine... they may be eligible for a Masters of Medicine and then upon more study may be eligible for a PhD.

Same for dentistry.. BDS, MDS, PhD.

Bachelors -> Masters -> Doctorate

Same for ANY subject you study, buisness, law, philosophy, etc etc.. ad. infinitum.


:thumbup:
 
OzDDS said:
No.. I agree that you shouldn't hand out two different degrees. That's not what I'm advocating.

Both students should recieve a "bachelors of Pharmacy". Because NEITHER one of them would have completed a previous degree in pharmacy.

A previous bachelor of biology doesnt count because this is technically a different scientific field. ....make sense?

Because for BOTH students, this will be their FIRST degree in the field of Pharmacy. Then Both students should recieve a degree titled Bachelor of Pharmacy



For example.. Let's say you have 2 students applying for medical school at the university of London. Both have previous bachelors degrees.. one has a degree in buisness and the other has a degree in chemistry. After they both graduate from medical school, they will BOTH recieve the Bachelor of Medicine Degree MBBS. Because for Both of them.. this is their first degree in the field of Medicine that either has recieved. After further study in medicine... they may be eligible for a Masters of Medicine and then upon more study may be eligible for a PhD.

Same for dentistry.. BDS, MDS, PhD.

Bachelors -> Masters -> Doctorate

Same for ANY subject you study, buisness, law, philosophy, etc etc.. ad. infinitum.


:thumbup:


That would all be fine IF you could obtain a professional degree in the US without first having some sort of other "general" degree. I realize there are some exceptions, but most professional schools require that a student have at the very minimum 2 years of liberal arts studies. Since you really can't bypass that stage, a doctorate of "whatever" is appropriate.
 
AhhPuller said:
That would all be fine IF you could obtain a professional degree in the US without first having some sort of other "general" degree.

..at the very minimum 2 years of liberal arts studies. Since you really can't bypass that stage, a doctorate of "whatever" is appropriate.


You can obtain a Professional degree in the US without first obtaining a general degree first.


The "first professional degrees" DDS, MD, etc are the First entry level degree you can recieve in that field. (MD and DDS degrees in the US represent Undergraduate Medical education/Undergraduate Dental education) This is not a "doctorate" level degree.. There are many US MD and DDS programs that do not require a previous degree.. so.. no. I don't see why it's appropriate to call it that. :confused:

Even at some schools in the UK and Australia that are 4-year graduate entry medical and dental schools.. A prior general degree is required.. and yet the medical and dental degrees you recieve are still called a "bachelors".

Even the programs that are 6 years long in the UK? How is that any different than the 2-year premed and 4-year med training that your describing in the US. Not to mention that there 6-year med programs in the US too! :idea:

Even if lets say I studied "classical languages" I went to college and recieved a Bachelors (my first degree) in this subject matter.. then I continued and recieved a Masters in "classical languages".. the I recieved a "true doctorate".. ie. a PhD in "classical languages". Then say, I went back to college and studied chemical engineering.. then I would then be required to first recieve a Bachelors in chemical Engineering... as I have never studied this subject before and would be starting from the bottom level again. I couldnt jump from a Masters in Classical languages to a "Doctorate" of chemical engineering if I haven't ever studied the basics of that subject matter before.

I don't understand why so many people object to this simple concept of the classical system of education. :confused:

I do realise that Everyone loves to be called Dr. so and so.. and I guess that's the problem. It's not really correct.. and a bit like cheapening the title if you hand it out to everyone who has not studied one particular subject matter from the ground up to the specialist level. make sense?

Calling someone "Doctor" because that is their job is different.. ie. You would still call someone who had obtained a "bachelor of Medicine/Bachelor of Dentistry" a Doctor. But because of the job they had, not because of the level of the degree that they had obtained. MBBS is the Same thing as an MD.

Bob Jones, MBBS = Doctor Bob
Bob Jones, MD = Doctor Bob

;)
 
I have a question, who cares about any system other than that in America? ;) Everyone should change their ways to be like us, and stop whining. :thumbup:
 
WildcatDMD said:
I have a question, who cares about any system other than that in America? ;) Everyone should change their ways to be like us, and stop whining. :thumbup:
And send us their women.
 
OzDDS said:
You can obtain a Professional degree in the US without first obtaining a general degree first.

The "first professional degrees" DDS, MD, etc are the First entry level degree you can recieve in that field. This is not a "doctorate" level degree.. so.. no. I don't see why it's appropriate to call it that.

Even at some schools in the UK and Australia that are 4-year graduate entry medical and dental schools.. A prior general degree is required.. and yet the medical and dental degrees you recieve are still called a "bachelors".

Even if lets say I studied "classical languages" I went to college and recieved a Bachelors (my first degree) in this subject matter.. then I continued and recieved a Masters in "classical languages".. the I recieved a "true doctorate".. ie. a PhD in "classical languages". Then say, I went back to college and studied chemical engineering.. then I would then be required to first recieve a Bachelors in chemical Engineering... as I have never studied this subject before and would be starting from the bottom level again. I couldnt jump from a Masters in Classical languages to a "Doctorate" of chemical engineering if I haven't ever studied the basics of that subject matter before.

I don't understand why so many people object to this simple concept of the classical system of education. :confused:

I do realise that Everyone loves to be called Dr. so and so.. and I guess that's the problem. It's not really correct.. and a bit like cheapening the title if you hand it out to everyone who has not studied one particular subject matter from the ground up to the specialist level. make sense?

Calling someone "Doctor" because that is their job is different.. ie. You would still call someone who had obtained a "bachelor of Medicine/Bachelor of Dentistry" a Doctor. But because of the job they had, not because of the level of the degree that they had obtained. MBBS is the Same thing as an MD.

Bob Jones, MBBS = Doctor Bob
Bob Jones, MD = Doctor Bob

;)

Again, that is the exception in Europe and not the rule. I like the system in America. First 4 years = Bachelors of whatever. After 4+ more years of school after that, you should def. be a dr of something. I agree that the US is all that matters. :thumbup:
 
AhhPuller said:
Again, that is the exception in Europe and not the rule. I like the system in America. First 4 years = Bachelors of whatever. After 4+ more years of school after that, you should def. be a dr of something. I agree that the US is all that matters. :thumbup:

Makes sense.. :rolleyes: so I guess that in a few years we will all be calling our nurses and dental hygiensts "Doctor" because after they did their 4 year sociology degree, they completed their 3-4 year DDH (doctor of Dental hygiene) or their DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) degrees.

Everyone gets to feel important and good about themselves in America. Where "what" you study or the quality of instruction doesn't matter.. as long as you "did your time".. then your "doctor of something" :thumbup: Awesome!
 
AhhPuller said:
I agree that the US is all that matters. :thumbup:

Think a bit more globally... You do realise that your statement above is the reason the rest of the world hates us.
 
You mean there's dry land beyong the borders of the US?!?!?
 
OzDDS said:
In that case, you might be interested to know that the first American medical school also granted the (B.M.) "Bachelor of Medicine" degree. ;)
Philadelphia College (UPenn)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8515696&dopt=Abstract

http://www.famousamericans.net/thomasparke/

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=234412

That's just silly, and I was being sarcastic. Historically, we have done a lot of things, and it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way to do it. It happens to be the way we do it, and I like it. The difference with nursing is that you can earn that degree WITHOUT first obtaining a bachelor's degree. Further, the curriculum for most nursing programs is not 4 years SOLELY dedicated to the practice or nursing. Anyway, there is a doctorate in nursing and that's just fine with me.
 
OzDDS said:
...........
The "first professional degrees" DDS, MD, etc are the First entry level degree you can recieve in that field. This is not a "doctorate" level degree.. so.. no. I don't see why it's appropriate to call it that.
....................
Hey Oz.
I have been reading some of your posts, silently, but I have to say that some of the information you have collected and are presenting here is in fact misleading.
Please, bear in mind that I am a BDS. No bias intended here.

DDS/DMD/MD/PhD and equivalents ARE in fact doctorate degrees. I do not think that you are about to re-define education in the US and re-define the level of degrees awarded. Here is how simple it is;
The rule (not the exceptions as UOP or other fine schools) is that; in order to go on to a "graduate" level degree you must first posses a bachelors degree, in other words and in most cases, over 120 post-secondary education credits. 120. Now, if you are familiar with graduate studies here, you may already know that most professional doctoral level degrees require on average completion of 80 credits before the degree can be awarded, which is FOUNDED upon your previous education (120 credits) at the undergraduate level. Masters level graduate degrees are usually 36 credits or more, also following the same concept.
In this light, you would have accumulated roughly 200 post-secondary credits at the Doctoral level (BS+MD) and 156 at the Masters level (BS+MS) as opposed to only 120 at the Bachelor's level (MBBS).
Now an interesting point to refer to here is that when I had my BDS credentials evaluated here in the US ( www.ECE.org ), my BDS degree added to 170 US credit hours. However, it was not given an equivalence of a doctoral level degree (DDS/DMD) in the US due to the difference in level of education between the 2 degrees (post secondary level versus post bachelor’s level).

Now, although overseas degrees MBBS/BDS and the likes are actually medical degrees, and in most instances extensive programs with excellent training, the accumilated credits of your cumulative education would still fall short of a US equivalence of a graduate/doctoral level of education.

To sum up, MBBS and MD while very relative to one another are not the same thing, just like a BDS and DDS/DMD are not. I have to agree with you though that the scope of the courses completed and training endured in both programs leading to both degrees maybe very comparable, however, still not equal.
In this example,
PhD = Philosophy Doctorate (Latin Philosophiae Doctor)
MD = Medical Doctorate (Latin. Medicinae Doctor)
the main difference between both degrees is that one is research based, and the other is clinical based. Simply put. Both are doctorate level degrees. If you want to call it PhMD, then go ahead ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate
http://nsf.gov

I am also curious to know what level of education are you at now ? Are you a foreign dental grad, already in advanced standing or else wise ?
Why do you feel that you have to prove this to everyone so badly ?

Thanks.
 
AhhPuller said:
That's just silly, and I was being sarcastic. Historically, we have done a lot of things, and it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way to do it. It happens to be the way we do it, and I like it. The difference with nursing is that you can earn that degree WITHOUT first obtaining a bachelor's degree. Further, the curriculum for most nursing programs is not 4 years SOLELY dedicated to the practice or nursing. Anyway, there is a doctorate in nursing and that's just fine with me.

Most Dental degrees in the US don't require a previous degree either. Most people have them.. in order to be more competitive. But its not technically a requirement for most schools here. Because a DDS just like a BDS is an undergraduate dental degree.
 
NileBDS said:
Hey Oz.
I have been reading some of your posts, silently, but I have to say that some of the information you have collected and are presenting here is in fact misleading.
Please, bear in mind that I am a BDS. No bias intended here.

DDS/DMD/MD/PhD and equivalents ARE in fact doctorate degrees. I do not think that you are about to re-define education in the US and re-define the level of degrees awarded. Here is how simple it is;
The rule (not the exceptions as UOP or other fine schools) is that; in order to go on to a "graduate" level degree you must first posses a bachelors degree, in other words and in most cases, over 120 post-secondary education credits. 120. Now, if you are familiar with graduate studies here, you may already know that most professional doctoral level degrees require on average completion of 80 credits before the degree can be awarded, which is FOUNDED upon your previous education (120 credits) at the undergraduate level. Masters level graduate degrees are usually 36 credits or more, also following the same concept.
In this light, you would have accumulated roughly 200 post-secondary credits at the Doctoral level (BS+MD) and 156 at the Masters level (BS+MS) as opposed to only 120 at the Bachelor's level (MBBS).
Now an interesting point to refer to here is that when I had my BDS credentials evaluated here in the US ( www.ECE.org ), my BDS degree added to 170 US credit hours. However, it was not given an equivalence of a doctoral level degree (DDS/DMD) in the US due to the difference in level of education between the 2 degrees (post secondary level versus post bachelor’s level).

Now, although overseas degrees MBBS/BDS and the likes are actually medical degrees, and in most instances extensive programs with excellent training, the accumilated credits of your cumulative education would still fall short of a US equivalence of a graduate/doctoral level of education.

To sum up, MBBS and MD while very relative to one another are not the same thing, just like a BDS and DDS/DMD are not. I have to agree with you though that the scope of the courses completed and training endured in both programs leading to both degrees maybe very comparable, however, still not equal.
In this example,
PhD = Philosophy Doctorate (Latin Philosophiae Doctor)
MD = Medical Doctorate (Latin. Medicinae Doctor)
the main difference between both degrees is that one is research based, and the other is clinical based. Simply put. Both are doctorate level degrees. If you want to call it PhMD, then go ahead ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate
http://nsf.gov

I am also curious to know what level of education are you at now ? Are you a foreign dental grad, already in advanced standing or else wise ?
Why do you feel that you have to prove this to everyone so badly ?

Thanks.


What about say.. a program like Australian National University's medical school. They require a previous bachelors degree before you can begin their medical degree. Yet when you graduate you still recieve a "bachelor of medicine" after 4 years of med school.

So, by your definition. If I have over 200 credit pts and a (BSc. + MBBS). That then makes (by your definition) the MBBS degree I would have received a "doctoral degree".
 
NileBDS said:
I am also curious to know what level of education are you at now ? Are you a foreign dental grad, already in advanced standing or else wise ?

My father is from Canada, but recieved his medical degree (mbbs) from Australia and his Masters of Med from the UK. I have finished my Bachelors at UCSD. I'm just working at the moment, but I am contemplating applying to dental school in UK and Australia. I was just thinking about where I would ultimatly want to practice. Also, just comment on some things because it bothers me that some of the Americans here think that because someone's degree MBBS, BDS, or whathaveyou.. is called a "bachelors" that it means that they are lesser doctors than American's who'se degrees are called "doctorates". But I don't feel that they are any different.

A doctor is a doctor. We all learn the same ****. I just don't like the attitude some take towards it. Plus, I think its silly.. cause of all these so called "doctoral" programs in the states are just fluffed up anyhow.
 
NileBDS said:
I have to say that some of the information you have collected and are presenting here is in fact misleading.


when I had my BDS credentials evaluated here in the US ( www.ECE.org ), my BDS degree added to 170 US credit hours. However, it was not given an equivalence of a doctoral level degree (DDS/DMD) in the US .

1. legally speaking.. please tell me what I've stated that is un-true.

2. I understand you have had some frustrating personal experience dealing with some people in the US who "evaluated" your previous education. But that doesn't mean that what they've said is true. Just what they think.. because they have based their definition of doctoral level of education on total number of credit points achieved as opposed to the actually level of subject matter you have completed. :thumbup:
 
OzDDS said:
It has become confusing in the US, but historically as you can see the education model is origionally from the UK and they still retain the proper names for the level of education you recieve. :thumbup:

To call the UK system the "proper" system is to ignore a key difference between the countries: those degrees aren't undergraduate degrees in the US. Dental school is a bit of a weird animal. Almost all dentists do have bachelors degree, but it's not strictly required. However, virtually all U.S. law schools (the ones accredited by the American Bar Association) require that one complete a bachelors degree. That's quite different from the UK model in which the law degree is the bachelors degree. The US changed the naming scheme largely because it didn't make a lot of sense to have bachelors degree be prerequisites for bachelors degrees.
 
OzDDS said:
In the UK they have always kept to the fact that the First degree that you earn in ANY subject is called a "bachelors"

The obvious distinction is that US programs often require a bachelors prior to getting the higher degree. You can't be awarded a US MD without getting the bachelors first. You can't be awarded a US JD without getting the bachelors first.
 
OzDDS said:
You can obtain a Professional degree in the US without first obtaining a general degree first.

That's impossible for lawyers (with the incredibly minor exception of some weird unaccredited schools).

That's impossible for doctors. The bachelors requirements must be satisfied before the MD is awarded.

The granting of the professional degree is CONTINGENT on the granting of the bachelors degree.

Even if lets say I studied "classical languages" I went to college and recieved a Bachelors (my first degree) in this subject matter.. then I continued and recieved a Masters in "classical languages".. the I recieved a "true doctorate".. ie. a PhD in "classical languages". Then say, I went back to college and studied chemical engineering.. then I would then be required to first recieve a Bachelors in chemical Engineering...

But, of course, that's a very bad analogy because the engineering degree is not CONTINGENT, either de facto or de jure, on the former degree(s).
 
OzDDS said:
Makes sense.. :rolleyes: so I guess that in a few years we will all be calling our nurses and dental hygiensts "Doctor" because after they did their 4 year sociology degree, they completed their 3-4 year DDH (doctor of Dental hygiene) or their DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) degrees.

No. The latter degree is in no way CONTINGENT on the former degree (or even former coursework). That's a VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT. What do you not understand about that?
 
OzDDS said:
What about say.. a program like Australian National University's medical school. They require a previous bachelors degree before you can begin their medical degree. Yet when you graduate you still recieve a "bachelor of medicine" after 4 years of med school.

Apparently they think naming uniformity trumps substantive education differences. Perhaps it's a ruling by some accrediting agency. It's not a particularly important matter.

So, by your definition. If I have over 200 credit pts and a (BSc. + MBBS). That then makes (by your definition) the MBBS degree I would have received a "doctoral degree".

If in the US, and if those prior credits were NECESSARY, yes.
 
mdub said:
those degrees aren't undergraduate degrees in the US. Dental school is a bit of a weird animal. Almost all dentists do have bachelors degree, but it's not strictly required.



Yes, Both BDS and DDS and DMD are all undergraduate dental degrees.

an MD is also an "undergraduate medical degree".

Even in the US.

Check these links:

http://65.39.131.180/ContentPage.aspx?name=MD Program Home

http://www.uic.edu/depts/mcam/ugme/

http://www.med.mcgill.ca/undmededuca/

http://www.utmem.edu/dentistry/Admissions/DDS/DDSprog.html

http://www.dentistry.ubc.ca/academic_programs/dmd/

http://www.med.ualberta.ca/education/ugme/admissions/dofd.cfm

"Graduate medical and Dental education" would be completing a Masters of Dentistry or Medicine and/or specialty training.

mdub said:
You can't be awarded a US MD without getting the bachelors first.

Not true! Most people have them in order to be competitive enough for admission. Yes, Some schools do require it, but some schools don't.. Yes.. even in the US. :thumbup: So.. NO. you do NOT have to have a BA/BSc before obtaining an MD in the US. :)
 
NileBDS said:
you would have accumulated roughly 200 post-secondary credits at the Doctoral level (BS+MD) and 156 at the Masters level (BS+MS) as opposed to only 120 at the Bachelor's level (MBBS).

Most MBBS programs are 6 years long and 170 credits or so.. so is this one:
http://www.med.umkc.edu/education/default.html
Which is an accredited "MD" program in the US that is 6-years too. So is this US-MD not a real doctoral degree then either because it was done in under 200 credits?

The University of Queensland Medical school is 4 years long for just the med degree (mbbs) (previous bachelors degree is required), and they also have a 7-year long option where you recieve both a BSc and MBBS combined which is over 200 credits.
 
mdub said:
The US changed the naming scheme largely because it didn't make a lot of sense to have bachelors degree be prerequisites for bachelors degrees.

Well.. if a bachelors degree is for "undergraduate curriculum".. or for "entry level" studies in any subject matter.

Of which a US MD and US DDS are.. I.e. They are undergraduate medical and dental degrees representing the very first entry level degree you can obtain in that subject. Then yes, I think it should be defined as a "bachelors".

http://www.answers.com/topic/bachelor-s-degree

Again.. Just because you have a bachelor of Chemistry, doesn't mean that you can get a Master or Doctorate of Medicine.

Chemistry and Medicine are different fields of science. After you finish your undergraduate chemistry education, you are starting over at the bottom in the field of medicine.. undergraduate medical education. chemistry is not medicine.

Again.. not trying to argue.. and I know I'm being pedantic. But its true.

My father has an MBBS, but he is allowed to put MD on his buisness cards and white coat if he wants because he has a US medical license and it is reconised by the state that they are equivilant degrees.

So Australian Bachelor = US Doctorate
 
No one can get into any professional program without completing the requirements. For many Med/Dent this is 2 years of Chem. Bio. and Physics. While these have "nothing to do with Med/Dent". I want you to attempt to take biochem, physio, anatomy, etc. with out this background. In essence these are the first two years of at least 6 year program.
 
OzDDS said:
My father has an MBBS, but he is allowed to put MD on his buisness cards and white coat if he wants because he has a US medical license and it is reconised by the state that they are equivilant degrees.
So Australian Bachelor = US Doctorate
Oz. You have too much to prove.
Good Luck applying for dental school.
 
One last note for you to contemplate and be honest with yourself about ...
If you are not even in dental school, and plan on applying in Australia or the UK, and if it is your firm belief that both degrees are the same ... why is your name Oz"DDS" not Oz"BDS" ?
 
OzDDS said:
Makes sense.. :rolleyes: so I guess that in a few years we will all be calling our nurses and dental hygiensts "Doctor" because after they did their 4 year sociology degree, they completed their 3-4 year DDH (doctor of Dental hygiene) or their DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) degrees.

Everyone gets to feel important and good about themselves in America. Where "what" you study or the quality of instruction doesn't matter.. as long as you "did your time".. then your "doctor of something" :thumbup: Awesome!

As far as I am concerned, a doctor is what a doctor is. If the person is a doctor of classical arts, then the person technically has recieve the highest competant degree allowed for that field. The board of education in NYS doesnt give any special preference to any docterates and holds them all to the same. A nurse cannot be call a doctor as she is not the master of the field. A physician assistant cannot be call a doctor because they are not the master of that field. Of course again, you dont need a degree in order to be the best in one's field. However the doctorate is the proof that you need in order to get your license to practice.
 
NUKE said:
No one can get into any professional program without completing the requirements. For many Med/Dent this is 2 years of Chem. Bio. and Physics.
In essence these are the first two years of at least 6 year program.

This is correct. Pre-med requirements and med school (MD) in the US is the same thing as a 6-year program (mbbs)...

This is the SAME for both the US-MD and UK-MBBS 6-year programs.
 
Well, you've proven your point to yourself, oz. :thumbup: It may be a first professional degree, but it is also a professional doctorate in the US. You can argue whatever you are trying to argue ad nauseum, without having any effect on that fact. If you think this system is so stupid or inflated, then don't become a part of it. If you do get a dental degree in the US, please explain to your patients how even though you are called "Dr.Oz" your degree is in fact only a bachelors degree and America is stupid for raising it to the status of a professional doctorate, blah, blah, blah.. :rolleyes:
 
WildcatDMD said:
If you think this system is so stupid or inflated, then don't become a part of it.

I don't think that America's system is stupid.. I just have a problem with those in it who take this elitest attitude and claim that their's is better or of higher distinction... when it's all really the same thing. :thumbup:
 
WildcatDMD said:
please explain to your patients how even though you are called "Dr.Oz" your degree is in fact only a bachelors degree and America is stupid for raising it to the status of a professional doctorate, blah, blah, blah.. :rolleyes:

If you get a BDS in England. You are still called Dr. there.
 
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