Mid-tier programs

courtyard · Dec 9, 2006

Hi,
I am an average applicant coming from top-ten school. Given my numbers (mid 230's on step 1) and upper 1/2 in my class grades, I don't think I will be competitive in top programs.

I wanted to get some opinions from those in the field on which programs are considered as "mid-tiers". Also, what are some applicant specs of those that successfully match to these mid-tier programs.

Thanks!

C.

resxn · Dec 10, 2006

I think the reason no one really has posted much on this is that it's hard to name name's when saying someone's not a "top-tier" program. And I'm not going to be one to start.

As much as it is panned, US News and World Report ranks the hospitals and you can look to that as a general guideline. I emphasize general because I think things are ranked by reputation and NIH money way more than by quality of residency training, but it does provide a starting point.

redtomato · Dec 14, 2006

I'm interested in this too. I don't need to know about specific programs, but would be curious to know if there are any ENT residents or applicants on this forum who have average scores and matched or are getting interviews. Basically, is there hope for those of us that aren't great test takers but want an ENT job?

TheThroat · Dec 19, 2006

If you have OK scores and grades and have a lot of research, then apply widely and see what happens.

The reason that the AVERAGE score of a med student getting into an oto residency is, what, 235, is because HALF of the students are above that and HALF are below. For every dork with a score of 255, there is some dude getting into a program with a score of 215.

Research is what counts.

As far as "mid tier" programs, there is no such thing. There are programs that are more academically centered, like Iowa, Michigan, Hopkins, UNC, Wash U, and many others. Most other programs will well prepare you for private practice and some will have a focus, like Wake and Vandy for voice, Penn and Cleveland Clinic for sinus, etc. You can go into academics from ANY program if you apply yourself and get to know the right people.

As far as USN&WR goes, I think that its a joke as far as giving potential residents any information on the quality of their residency. It is largely based on reputation and NIH funding, which means squat as far as residency education. That said, for residents who KNOW that they want to go into academics, going to a program with a good reputation usually means that the faculty there know the right people for getting into the best fellowships.

josehernandez94 · Dec 19, 2006

TheThroat said:
Research is what counts.

So I have 6-8 weeks of time that I can allot for an OTO research project very early in my 4th year. Do you think this is sufficient time to partake in something meaningful or do you feel it's necessary to do something like a year out?

Thanks a lot!

resxn · Dec 19, 2006

something is better than nothing, but obviously quality is choice. If you've got the time to get involved in a project that will have a better chance to be published in a leading ENT journal, you are better off.

When I applied 7 years ago it wasn't as competitive as it is now, but research was still heavily favored. I started my own "prospective" clinical trial rather than sitting in a lab with a micropipette. I explained when I interviewed that I felt strongly about doing my own project which might have relevance to me as a practitioner rather than jumping on a project to detect some IL involved in some cancer and attach my name to the paper. I think the people who interviewed me about my project really liked to hear that. There may have been some who thought I was wasting my time, but they never said anything. But to qualify that, I was interested much more in clinical programs over research programs. That position may not have played so well if I was gunning more for the research schools.

TheThroat · Dec 20, 2006

In my opinion, if you have 8 weeks to devote to research, programs will be impressed if you use it to do something of quality. I did 10 weeks of bench work, and feel that it really helped my application. By the way, I got NO publication out of the research.

Doing a solid clinical project would also be helpful, but it takes usually takes longer than 8 weeks to get a prospective project off the ground, just because IRB approval can take months alone.

josehernandez94 · Dec 20, 2006

Hey Throat and Resxn,

Thanks for the great, helpful info. I really appreciate it.

aggernodi · Dec 23, 2006

Regarding "mid-tier" programs, no such thing. Any ENT program in the US will train you well and you will graduate just fine as a general otolaryngologist. But to make your application stick out, I agree with research and publications as a way to improve your credentials.

I would suggest getting in touch with a chief resident and inquiring if anyone was in the process of trying to write up a case report or paper. Why? Well, if you apply yourself and are very aggressive with reading up on the topic, obtaining references, and even assisting with the writing, you most likely will be a co-author. Not only that, you get your name noticed by the attendings and residents.

BUT, be sure to really apply yourself if you volunteer and the resident accepts your help. Anything less will create a bad impression. What do I mean by apply yourself? I mean once you get the go ahead, you have a list of 20 references photocopied, read, and a great first draft of the intro (which any medical student should be able to write up) back to the resident (do NOT bypass the resident and go the the attending) in 5-7 days.

You are not only out to get publications, but you are out to impress...and help out. Alternatively, aggressively help with IRB protocol submissions which is the bane of most publications/research.

Over the years, I've had 2nd and 3rd year medical students co-author papers with me AND publish before their applications went out... needless to say, they all got noticed for their efforts and are currently in great ENT programs now.

jsong812 · Jul 15, 2008

aggernodi said:
Regarding "mid-tier" programs, no such thing. Any ENT program in the US will train you well and you will graduate just fine as a general otolaryngologist. But to make your application stick out, I agree with research and publications as a way to improve your credentials.

I would suggest getting in touch with a chief resident and inquiring if anyone was in the process of trying to write up a case report or paper. Why? Well, if you apply yourself and are very aggressive with reading up on the topic, obtaining references, and even assisting with the writing, you most likely will be a co-author. Not only that, you get your name noticed by the attendings and residents.

BUT, be sure to really apply yourself if you volunteer and the resident accepts your help. Anything less will create a bad impression. What do I mean by apply yourself? I mean once you get the go ahead, you have a list of 20 references photocopied, read, and a great first draft of the intro (which any medical student should be able to write up) back to the resident (do NOT bypass the resident and go the the attending) in 5-7 days.

You are not only out to get publications, but you are out to impress...and help out. Alternatively, aggressively help with IRB protocol submissions which is the bane of most publications/research.

Over the years, I've had 2nd and 3rd year medical students co-author papers with me AND publish before their applications went out... needless to say, they all got noticed for their efforts and are currently in great ENT programs now.

Very helpful post. thanks

Mid-tier programs

courtyard

Member

resxn

Full Member

redtomato

New Member

TheThroat

SDN Moderator

josehernandez94

Senior Member

resxn

Full Member

TheThroat

SDN Moderator

josehernandez94

Senior Member

aggernodi

Private Practice ENT

jsong812

Senior Member

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