UPenn interns who left?

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Did anyone hear about 5 interns leaving the UPenn residency program last year and why they left or what happened?
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horrible mentoring I guess or may be they were whipped daily!:laugh:
 
My friend left last year because he was absolutely miserable. He said that patient care was the least important part of day-to-day activities, very far behind stroking egos, from the residents' up to the attendings'. People always looked out for themselves, there was no team atmosphere at all, and patients and education always suffered. He said they never followed work hours rules or caps and they abused the interns with things they were expected to do. He ran as fast as he could. As he was leaving Philly he threw his pager into the river and hasn't looked back.

I have no idea how this affects today's applicants, but it's an honest assessment of what you're in for.
 
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That story is a little hard to believe... So pretty much your friend found absolutely everything wrong with the program? You left out the daily whippings and annual human/intern sacrifice . You may be right but I really haven't heard any bad things about Penn on this forum and I'd like to hear if anyone else knows about this. Obviously, if anyone is really concerned they should just email some residents at the program who know about the situation.... then let me know, heh.
 
THOG said:
That story is a little hard to believe... So pretty much your friend found absolutely everything wrong with the program? You left out the daily whippings and annual human/intern sacrifice . You may be right but I really haven't heard any bad things about Penn on this forum and I'd like to hear if anyone else knows about this. Obviously, if anyone is really concerned they should just email some residents at the program who know about the situation.... then let me know, heh.
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what makes it so hard to believe? that his friend was unhappy with the program and left? it's not like this is some unsolicited bashing of the program...the OP asked if anyone knew about "5 interns leaving the UPenn residency program last year and why they left", and peptidoglycan just answered the question: the intern was "miserable" and had his own reasons for wanting to leave. it's not a right vs. wrong or fact vs. lies discussion--it's just someone's personal choice. That intern obviously wasn't a good fit for that program, and i don't see what's so hard to believe about it. if anything, i can believe it a lot more now that interviews are over because of how little time we actually spent at each interview...it's simply not possible to know for sure whether what you're seeing in the few short hours of your interview day is exactly what you may think it is and whether it's the right fit for you. it's a risk for all of us, and if i haven't read any bad thing about a program i'm interested in on these forums, i'm not going to delude myself into thinking that it's therefore a flawless program, just as i won't let a few anonymous posts criticizing a program convince me that ranking them would be a mistake, as i know that they're just the opinions of an anonymous few.

if someone posted a rave review of a program, would you accept it all as fact or would you say that it's hard to believe, like you did with the post above? if you're going to read these forums, all opinions, good or bad, should be taken with a grain of salt anyway, and i like when anyone is courageous enough to speak up about something that you won't hear from a bunch of residents or faculty trying to sell you their program. it's nice when people don't sugarcoat everything they say about a program and i'm glad we have these forums to do so anonymously.
 
The question was asked because a red flag went up for the OP. He obviously thought something was wrong. As soon as I validate his funny feeling, it becomes "hard to believe". I know you'd all rather me say all 5 of them won the lottery and left to start a world peace non-profit, but that isn't what happened in reality. Ask around some more -- there are still people in that program who feel the way he did but stuck it out. If they'll let you talk to their residents, and you dig hard enough for the honest folks who can look past their coaching, you might get an even better assessment than the one-sided one that I know.

And thanks, mcindoe, for your words -- I only wish I had gotten on here and said them before.
 
Hi peptidoglycan. Did your friend go to another medicine program, switch residencies, or leave medicine all together? The reason I am asking is the first one paints a different rationale for his leaving compared to the latter two. Also, do you know where the other 4 went? (Not asking for specifics, just the categorization listed above.) I know of another "elite" East Coast school where someone is leaving this year, but he is switching into another competitive track, so that tells me he just switched because the field was not a fit not because the program wasn't.

peptidoglycan said:
My friend left last year because he was absolutely miserable. He said that patient care was the least important part of day-to-day activities, very far behind stroking egos, from the residents' up to the attendings'. People always looked out for themselves, there was no team atmosphere at all, and patients and education always suffered. He said they never followed work hours rules or caps and they abused the interns with things they were expected to do. He ran as fast as he could. As he was leaving Philly he threw his pager into the river and hasn't looked back.

I have no idea how this affects today's applicants, but it's an honest assessment of what you're in for.
Click to expand...
 
McIndoe, thanks for your words of wisdom. To be honest though, I kinda realize you should take stuff on a web forum with a grain of salt. That's exactly why I posted my reply asking for others who know about the situation to support what Peptidoglycan said. See how that works? I want to know the negative side too as I only got one interview day like everyone else. However, I didn't want to take one anonymous guy's word for it. Notice that I didn't call him a liar; I simply took it with a grain of salt, and asked for more experiences. Note that I also said people should ask the Penn residents too which is clearly bettter than getting info from a forum.

Also, if one person writes an amazing review of a program, I take that with a grain of salt, just like you. However, if lots of people say good things about a program, I tend to give that a small measure of credence. That's why I asked for more negative experiences with Penn so I could better weigh them against the favorable experiences people have mentioned online and offline to me about Penn.

To clarify, I don't disbelieve that 5 interns left, I just don't know why and would really like to know as much as I can about it. Seriously, thanks Peptido for posting but when you list everything negative I could think of about a respected program, don't expect me to believe it wholeheartedly... I don't even know you. I was simply surprised by the severity of your friend's feelings and want to know if this is an exaggeration or others also feel this way. I think I'm in line with your philosophy McIndoe but thanks for checking;)
 
wow, that's pretty surprising to hear that 5 interns left. my husband was a resident there (just graduated june '06) and really loved it there. this is not to say that things were perfect, but he never complained to the point where i would have thought that he'd leave.

i remember him going through his intern year and it was tough. really, really tough. i myself did internal med. residency but at a community hospital (because i did not want to get the crap beat out of me - as is the reputation of all ivy league places). but he wanted to go to a competitive program and get a comp. fellowship (cardio, which he's doing now). but other than working super hard as an intern...i don't recall him finding the residents/attendings terrible.

honestly, most people who apply to such programs know what they're in for. i'm not saying that someone who quits for whatever reason is weak, but you really should know while ranking that ivy schools usually make you work super hard. and its funny that penn lost 5 interns (i can't confirm that) b/c penn tends to have a milder rep. when it comes to interns being worked hard. i wonder what happened this year to get so many people irritated enough to leave.
 
So Gwen, who do you think got better training? Did you think there were significant differences between your community program and his university program? Who worked harder, and why? Who was more prepared to take care of bread and butter medicine after 3 years? Just curious to hear your take on a well known university program vs. a community program (though not necessarily yours in particular), and their pros and cons.
 
I know one of the 5 interns who left the program. He was the intern on my medicine rotation and is now doing anesthesia. It is a tough residency. The hospital is very busy especially now that a local hospital has just closed down. But the PD is absolutely serious about the work hours. In fact, I think the biggest strength of the program is that Dr. Bellini is very responsive feedback. She is creating a non-teaching service for general medicine and is separating one of the specialty services that has been notorious for heavy workload into two. The new census cap is probably the lowest of any programs that I've visited.
 
I talked to a current resident about it and apparently two went into emergency medicine instead, one went into radiology, and another into graduate/research. The fifth one was unknown.
 
holy crap, i guess med schools need to do a better job of exposing students to all specialties for long enough. i've been through this "residency" change so i can understand how tough it is to make a decision to drop an old program.
 
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I am one of the Penn interns who left the program after academic year 2006. I have been asked to post a reply to this thread by a number of friends. I can confirm that 5 interns left the Penn medicine program last year.

While at HUP, I was honored to take care of many sick patients and to have worked side by side some of the best young doctors in the country. The friends I made during internship will go on to have great careers in medicine. Ultimately, medicine was the wrong choice for me.

Should you have any questions, I'd be happy to respond.
 
I would also make a few comments about some of the erroneous comments mentioned in this thread

1 - You can't throw your pager into the river. To graduate from internship, you actually have to complete all dictations, have an exit interview with the program director, and return your pager. Sorry.

2 - The post about this cap business is silly. The cap, to my knowledge is mandated by the ACGME. Not Penn. I capped every non Sunday call at HUP starting from September through the end of June. Unless you're on Rhoads liquid, you need to have a census with possible dispo. A non teaching service of sorts steals away the healthy 23 year old who needs 24 hours of IV antibiotics or the 37 year old the ED admitted for a ROMI. This happened when the CDU was created and staffed by NPs and the easy admits were replaced by sick rocks or even Rhoads overflow. And it's not like we didn't wind up being responsible for the non teaching service patients anyway because the NPs sign out at 5pm.
 
peptidoglycan said:
My friend left last year because he was absolutely miserable. He said that patient care was the least important part of day-to-day activities, very far behind stroking egos, from the residents' up to the attendings'. People always looked out for themselves, there was no team atmosphere at all, and patients and education always suffered. He said they never followed work hours rules or caps and they abused the interns with things they were expected to do. He ran as fast as he could. As he was leaving Philly he threw his pager into the river and hasn't looked back.

I have no idea how this affects today's applicants, but it's an honest assessment of what you're in for.
Click to expand...

I am currently an intern at Penn. It is no secret that 5 folks left last year. I think all but one left to go into another specialty and the other person left to attend a different IM program that was closer to his fiance/girlfriend.

Patient care and education - are the two most important parts of day-to-day activities so far. Yes, there are tasks like discharge paperwork, social work rounds, late night blood draws (rarely) that don't feel all that educational at the time. I completely disagree about there not being a team atmosphere. We have dayfloats on almost all services and depend on our co-interns for crosscover, etc. It is just not true that "stroking ego's" is the most important part of the day. When I was on the intern trail, the one thing that kept coming up over and over again was the esprit de corps at Penn along with Dr. Bellini's reputation to go to bat for her housestaff. All still holds true as far as I'm concerned.

80hr work rule - I've gone over 80hrs per week once when averaged over 4 wks and this was largely b/c every one was relatively new to their responsibilities and it was a very busy/sick service (liquid oncology). This year, an attending that was known to not comply with getting the post call team out on team was taken off the teaching service. Dr. Bellini doesn't joke around. I don't get scutted out to do ridiculous things unless I volunteer to do so when I arrive on a rapid response or code. In that case, I'll do whatever it takes to expedite diagnosis, treatment, etc.

As far as people looking out for themselves- That is true and it is a good thing. Rule number one of a good intern is "Trust no one and expect sabotage". BUT - that doesn't mean that I don't really enjoy working with my co-interns and go out of my way to make sure that my patient list is nice and tucked. Internal medicine is a very team oriented field in my opinion. And I think that Penn's reputation for fostering that sort of vibe speaks for itself. Residents in general crank out a good amount of my to do list when I'm at clinic, cover for us during report (and hold pagers), etc. We definitely enjoy the team work aspect of training.

The bottom line is that I am learning a lot, feel MUCH more competent to take care of patients and feel like I am ready to be a resident. I truly like the people I work with and enjoy them more as time goes on. I feel supported by our program director, in terms of duty hour reform, resident well being, and in helping to determine career goals.

From the paragraph above, it sounds like the poster's friend has a flair for the drama, which may mean he'd see only the negative no matter where he went. I can only speak for my self and I've never regretted coming here, not even once.
 
now that sounds more like what my husband said about upenn!
 
Wondering if there are any updates to this thread. A bunch of us RadOnc applicants are wondering about the Penn prelim year that comes included in a match into the Penn Rad Onc residency. Apparently we get about a 15 minute introduction from the IM program director about the prelim year, and no opportunities to talk to people actually in the Penn intern year. Given threads like these, we all wonder if we should ding the RadOnc program in our ranklist--it's such a tremendous program, but who wants a year of misery that may be too some extent (i.e. cross-cover) unrelated to future practice?

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Especially helpful if written with specifics tailored to the intern year. Thanks!
 
you are probably going to work much harder than you like from what I have heard from people who are there but you should know that is going to be the case at any big medicine program. why not go cushy community prelim or something like that if you don't want to work.
 
indiamacbean said:
you are probably going to work much harder than you like from what I have heard from people who are there but you should know that is going to be the case at any big medicine program. why not go cushy community prelim or something like that if you don't want to work.
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The poster above you mentioned that the prelim year comes prepackaged with a Penn RadOnc match.

Bottom line is, yes it is a tough year, but likely no tougher than any other big name IM programs. A year is a year, so it shouldn't deter anyone from matching at Penn in other fields. However, as there are other top RadOnc programs I'm sure, give Penn a pass if you are looking for an easier intern year.
 
Has anyone else been hearing negative things about Penn? On our interview day, several of the residents I talked to told me that they are compliant with the 80-hour work week averaged over 4 weeks "most of the time" but often work 32-33 hour shifts and stay until 2-3pm post call. This thread is about the 5th time that I've heard people associating Penn with a malignant atmosphere. It is a highly regarded program but I feel like I'm going to bump it down on my rank list after reading and hearing about so many negatives about this program.
 
I am a PENN student. I did my medicine rotation at HUP. What people say about the program being malignant is true.

1) someone correct me if I am wrong but I think 5 people left in the year ending in June 2006 and ~6 interns left after the year ending in 2007 (this doesn't count the 2 that were booted for BAD behavior). so that means in two years IN A ROW greater than 10% of their intern class has left. These people left and did Radiology, anesthesia (penn has a VERY CUSH program), and one girl went into derm.

2) For people who refuse to believe this then go ahead rank PENN very high on your list. If you get in you deserve what you get;). It never ceases to amaze me how people just refuse to listen because they have their hearts set on the prestige. I met a student from UMDNJ who told me her DEAN told her to watch out for PENN as there is a high drop-out rate and she swore that it was because he was biased....OOOOKKKKAAAAYYY! knock yourself out but you have been warned.


HERE is what I have observed about the program:

1) EGOS are a BIG deal at PENN and the intern who noticed this is very astute. You do have to stroke the egos from the resident on up the chain and it just gets EXHAUSTING when your stupid HOSPITALIST attending who came from TEMPLE feels like he needs a ****ing round of applause from you every ****ing morning... get over it!

2) They DEFINATELY go over work hours. when I was on the floor there was a team of 2 interns that worked like 19 or 20 STRAIGHT days. I knew one of them. This guy is a HARD worker but around day 17 he started to get dark circles under his eyes etc... I think he was scheduled to do 21 straight days but then the 3rd year resident felt bad and told the two interns not to come in on day 20. (get this, this was right after his Heartfailure ICU month...completely heartless)

my intern said that it isn't uncommon for them to work nearly 100 hours on certain services as you can't leave if the patients aren't taken cared of. (don't know how often this happens, but don't believe that whole 60 hour work-week bull Lisa Bellini and friends are trying to sell to people)

3) It is super busy with a high turnover, plus depending on the service a lot of your patients will be transfers from outside hospitals that couldn't handle whatever these patients had.... these patients can be interesting, but do know that they are COMPLICATED and HARD and if you have 5 of them out of 12 pts.... you will be running on all cylinders and GRILLED by the attendings.

if you want interesting patients then do an away elective and then get the hell out of there at the end.

4) the envirionment is Malignant, Attendings will slice you up to pieces...especially in the MICU.

5) worst of all, PENN is very old-school in that their unstated motto is that "you are on your own, its up to you to sink or swim". If anything happens, anything at all you are on your own. I really wouldn't believe this If a PENN med grad (very nice guy) didn't go out of his way to tell all PENN student applicants to the program not to go there as there is little support. This guy is smart and very capable and he loved penn at the end of medschool but evidently by the end of intern year he had had enough.

I know people who were very enthusiastic about specializing who were so burnt out by the PENN residency that they decided to just stop and go into primary care. If you don't mind the risk of burn-out and not realizing your dream to become a cards/GI/Hemeonc or whatever then take the plunge.

6) if you don't think YOU will burn out in the program you should also consider that OTHERS WILL. This is Proven by the drop out rate in the past couple of years... being 6 people short means less man-power and THIS MEANS MORE FLOOR TIME AND LESS ELECTIVE TIME AS AN INTERN AND RESIDENT for the people who STAY. The residual work has to be done by SOMEONE and PENN does not hire ANYONE midyear or mid-residency. As a result, some interns and 2nd years were only getting to do 2week electives. It was not unheard of for 3rd years to be jeopardized into an intern spot for a couple of days while on an elective due to a shortage of man-power.

6) people come to PENN cause they think it will give them a better chance at landing a cardiology or GI fellowship but the truth is that once you are here you are dealing with some bigwhigs who really only care about their research and won't really go out of their way to support you... it is very competitive to get in on a research position with an attending and then get them to support your application to fellowhip.... a couple residents get to stay at penn for cards fellowship but an overwhelming majority come from Harvard. Some Penn residents match at the Lankenow(???) cardiology program... BUT with 75% of AMGs matching in cards I think it can be done from many places not just PENN.

7) I do think that a non-teaching hospitalist service was started this year and that should ease the strain of the shear patient volume.

8) FYI- There are over 40 PENN students applying into medicine during this coming match year (fall 2007). THEY were all invited for a PENN interview day where the Chairman told them that they wanted to keep as many PENN students as possible this year. I think the program has become weary of people dropping out and is reverting back to their own stock as they know the students and the students know the system (ie. they know what they are getting into)

9) LASTLY. Interns who match into the PENN med residency are VERY smart, often very strong students from their own schools. I think this influences the drop-out rate as these guys had MANY options and to come to PENN and go through ****...well I think they realized that the experience just wasn't worth it.... It's not just anyone who gets to drop a medicine residency and instead goes into Radiology or derm.
 
Rad-Onc

PENN's rad-onc is supposedly pretty good and they are building this new laser with an accelarator that is as big as a building's foot print. HOWEVER, the intern year is rough. I would go to MD anderson if I had the option.
 
sounds like someone didn't honor their medicine clerkship. you're just a student, your eyes will be opened when you go to residency ANYWHERE. wake up, this is the real world and yes, you are on your own.

philly4343 said:
I am a PENN student. I did my medicine rotation at HUP. What people say about the program being malignant is true.

1) someone correct me if I am wrong but I think 5 people left in the year ending in June 2006 and ~6 interns left after the year ending in 2007 (this doesn't count the 2 that were booted for BAD behavior). so that means in two years IN A ROW greater than 10% of their intern class has left. These people left and did Radiology, anesthesia (penn has a VERY CUSH program), and one girl went into derm.

2) For people who refuse to believe this then go ahead rank PENN very high on your list. If you get in you deserve what you get;). It never ceases to amaze me how people just refuse to listen because they have their hearts set on the prestige. I met a student from UMDNJ who told me her DEAN told her to watch out for PENN as there is a high drop-out rate and she swore that it was because he was biased....OOOOKKKKAAAAYYY! knock yourself out but you have been warned.


HERE is what I have observed about the program:

1) EGOS are a BIG deal at PENN and the intern who noticed this is very astute. You do have to stroke the egos from the resident on up the chain and it just gets EXHAUSTING when your stupid HOSPITALIST attending who came from TEMPLE feels like he needs a ****ing round of applause from you every ****ing morning... get over it!

2) They DEFINATELY go over work hours. when I was on the floor there was a team of 2 interns that worked like 19 or 20 STRAIGHT days. I knew one of them. This guy is a HARD worker but around day 17 he started to get dark circles under his eyes etc... I think he was scheduled to do 21 straight days but then the 3rd year resident felt bad and told the two interns not to come in on day 20. (get this, this was right after his Heartfailure ICU month...completely heartless)

my intern said that it isn't uncommon for them to work nearly 100 hours on certain services as you can't leave if the patients aren't taken cared of. (don't know how often this happens, but don't believe that whole 60 hour work-week bull Lisa Bellini and friends are trying to sell to people)

3) It is super busy with a high turnover, plus depending on the service a lot of your patients will be transfers from outside hospitals that couldn't handle whatever these patients had.... these patients can be interesting, but do know that they are COMPLICATED and HARD and if you have 5 of them out of 12 pts.... you will be running on all cylinders and GRILLED by the attendings.

if you want interesting patients then do an away elective and then get the hell out of there at the end.

4) the envirionment is Malignant, Attendings will slice you up to pieces...especially in the MICU.

5) worst of all, PENN is very old-school in that their unstated motto is that "you are on your own, its up to you to sink or swim". If anything happens, anything at all you are on your own. I really wouldn't believe this If a PENN med grad (very nice guy) didn't go out of his way to tell all PENN student applicants to the program not to go there as there is little support. This guy is smart and very capable and he loved penn at the end of medschool but evidently by the end of intern year he had had enough.

I know people who were very enthusiastic about specializing who were so burnt out by the PENN residency that they decided to just stop and go into primary care. If you don't mind the risk of burn-out and not realizing your dream to become a cards/GI/Hemeonc or whatever then take the plunge.

6) if you don't think YOU will burn out in the program you should also consider that OTHERS WILL. This is Proven by the drop out rate in the past couple of years... being 6 people short means less man-power and THIS MEANS MORE FLOOR TIME AND LESS ELECTIVE TIME AS AN INTERN AND RESIDENT for the people who STAY. The residual work has to be done by SOMEONE and PENN does not hire ANYONE midyear or mid-residency. As a result, some interns and 2nd years were only getting to do 2week electives. It was not unheard of for 3rd years to be jeopardized into an intern spot for a couple of days while on an elective due to a shortage of man-power.

6) people come to PENN cause they think it will give them a better chance at landing a cardiology or GI fellowship but the truth is that once you are here you are dealing with some bigwhigs who really only care about their research and won't really go out of their way to support you... it is very competitive to get in on a research position with an attending and then get them to support your application to fellowhip.... a couple residents get to stay at penn for cards fellowship but an overwhelming majority come from Harvard. Some Penn residents match at the Lankenow(???) cardiology program... BUT with 75% of AMGs matching in cards I think it can be done from many places not just PENN.

7) I do think that a non-teaching hospitalist service was started this year and that should ease the strain of the shear patient volume.

8) FYI- There are over 40 PENN students applying into medicine during this coming match year (fall 2007). THEY were all invited for a PENN interview day where the Chairman told them that they wanted to keep as many PENN students as possible this year. I think the program has become weary of people dropping out and is reverting back to their own stock as they know the students and the students know the system (ie. they know what they are getting into)

9) LASTLY. Interns who match into the PENN med residency are VERY smart, often very strong students from their own schools. I think this influences the drop-out rate as these guys had MANY options and to come to PENN and go through ****...well I think they realized that the experience just wasn't worth it.... It's not just anyone who gets to drop a medicine residency and instead goes into Radiology or derm.
Click to expand...
 
gwen said:
sounds like someone didn't honor their medicine clerkship. you're just a student, your eyes will be opened when you go to residency ANYWHERE. wake up, this is the real world and yes, you are on your own.
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Please don't discourage negative comments. This is one of the only ways for us to learn any of the real scoop on a program.

Unless you are at Penn, I'll take his word over yours.

I for one will not apply here next year after two people have given a very negative review of Penn.
 
viostorm said:
Please don't discourage negative comments. This is one of the only ways for us to learn any of the real scoop on a program.

Unless you are at Penn, I'll take his word over yours.

I for one will not apply here next year after two people have given a very negative review of Penn.
Click to expand...


I agree with you completely! and let me furthermore add, that just because the above poster was a student dosn't mean they can't assess a program fairly! we get more than enough exposure at these places to tell a malignant program from a bening one!
 
Wow, I never knew that UPenn would have such a malignant reputation . . . I have seen a really malignant medicine program (Boston not Philly), thought it to be sort of a fluke, but maybe east coast programs are just nastier, . . . I am doing a medicine elective at a community hospital, but which has academic ties and great teaching, . . . sooo much better than prior academic centers I have been at where they "rip you to shreds", I don't doubt that it is disruptive for a residency to have some many interns leave, . . . bad reviews aside have so many interns leave constantly speaks louder than words ever could, . . . I think that if the intern who left the academic program did an easier IM residency at a community place they would like it better (medicine as a career) the difference between malignancy and friendly is the same as night and day . . . I think life is too short to have to try to stick it out in a malignant place for three years . . . does anybody really feel that you learn more in a academic place that is so malignant that you want to leave or in a close community place where you are happy? (If you dont' catch the dripping sarcasm this is because you can't see my face as I type this)
 
come on guys...internal medicine isn't fun unless its intense and with a lot of drama ;)
 
hey guys,

my sister in law asked me to write this through her account. i finished my residency at HUP recently and i'm doing a cards fellowship currently.

i'm just going to give you my 2 cents. you will definitely work hard during your three years there. i have NEVER found faculty to be malignant - if anything, they are more than willing to work with you and help you. the faculty are at HUP because they really care about your education and want to teach.

in my three years, except one or two weeks, i never went over 80 hours - i think most residents can say that about their programs. after meeting people from many diff. residency programs, i can tell you that the residency at HUP is demanding, but you will leave with one of the best IM training in the country. if you are looking for an easy program, HUP is not the place. if you are willing to work hard, you will be rewarded with an excellent education and top fellowship/job in the future. the majority of the graduates went on to fellowships at top level places. and a few that chose to go to smaller programs, did so for personal reaons, not due to a lack of options.

FYI - i never did 3 weeks in a row like the penn med student said at residency, but i am definitely doing that as a cards fellow.

if you have questions, just PM to this account and i can answer any question for you. but if people are going to drop out of applying to HUP b/c of reading negative things here, honestly, its their loss, not the program's.

if you are looking at HUP, contact me or souljah1 (he wrote on this forum and looks like he would be a PGY-2).

thanks!
 
MedStudent2007 said:
but if people are going to drop out of applying to HUP b/c of reading negative things here, honestly, its their loss, not the program's.
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If I wasn't sold on the arrogance of your program from the MS post above, I am now. Nice job of enhancing HUP's pompous reputation.

Academic standing and fellowship placement can be had at many programs -- University of Pennshytvania doesn't provide anything uniquely special in that realm.
 
1) NOT bitter about not getting Honors. Honors or High Pass doesn't change much for a PENN-med student (per DEAN). I have a couple of friends who had straight High Passes and 230s on Step 1 who matched in DERM...sooo I am not losing sleep over not getting honors. (not an ego thing, just fact)

believe it or not I just think people should know what people who are on the inside of PENN have observed.

2) My opinion IS subjective however, the drop-out data is not. As I understand it the top medicine programs compete for ~200-300 of the top applicants. THESE guys are smart and they are driven. They seem to stick through the Brigham and UCSF and other programs just fine. SO why is it that the ones at PENN are running towards radiology?

That is the magic question here.

3) you can wait for the interview day to make your assesment if you like (by all means) but know that they are trying to sell the program to you and no one will come out and say "OHH but did you hear about our six interns that quit last year?"

4) What struck me at PENN was that people jsut didnt' seem happy. I remember being at dinner with my medicine team while on-call and this intern from another team pointedly says to me and the other medical student: "I would not do this again, if I could go back I would not do this again" and get this, no one else made a statement to counteract this. there was no "but it gets better", "OHH but we match in cards at MGH" so it is worth it. no one said a word. It wasn't the statement that made the impression, everyone has an off day. It was that of the six residents sitting at the table (a mix of 1st and 3rd years) no one could muster up a rebutal or a "now now its not so bad"... not even the two 3rd years that matched at really good fellowships. now THAT made an impression.

5) PENN's ego: MY good friend thinks that PENN suffers from "BIG FISH in a SMALL POND syndrome". It is the only major research institution in philly and for miles around (there is Jeff, but they just aren't as recognized nationally). Whereas the institutions in NYC or New England have other intitutions to balance each other out (even the Harvard institutions balance out each other out). BUT HUP Penn's hospital is the largest employer in philly (not hard to do) and it holds A LOT of clout in the city...so occasionally PENN feels bigger than it actually is. This is ironic to me 'cause as a med-student when I am in New YORK or NEW ENGLANd I constantly have to correct people and tell them that PENN is not PENN-STATE;).

6) I will tell you this though...you will see some cool stuff at PENN and you will leave knowing your stuff. But you can have that at a lot of places.

7) Anyway, good luck in your search for an optimal residency experience
 
when i visited someone at CHOP, i remember the slogans in the street 'We Are Medicine'...now enough said!
no direspect to penn. its the best. i'd bet anything the people that quit would also have quit any other rigorous medicine program as well.
 
The "We Are Medicine" slogan is a bit embarrassing. A few other students and I gave one of the DEANs the "are you ****ting us" look when we found out about it. He looked pretty embarrassed about it.

Seriously, it takes some balls to run an add like that.

On another note... I don't know of any other major medical institution that has to actually run adds to drum up business. I mean I don't think Columbia needs to.

It must have worked tho cause PENN is in the green this year. They are usually in the red but this year all physicians (including residents) got a holiday bonus ($300 for residents).
 
It'd be interesting to look at the resident directory (can't seem to locate it on the website) to see if many of the Penn students decide to stay at their own IM program... it would be a useful indirect indicator of its "malignancy."
 
Hey guys,

I'm a 2nd year penn resident... and I love it here.

2 years ago 4-5 people left. Some of them left because they figured out that medicine wasn't for them. 1-2 left because they felt overworked. I didn't know any of them and can't give you any more information than that.

Our class and the SAR class love this program. I don't go over 80 hours and the only time I go over 30 hours is if one of my patients end up crashing/coding post call. Dr. Bellini did a lot of the intial work tying resident fatigue with medical mistakes and she is VERY involved in making sure that work hours are complied with.

The JAR and SAR class spend a lot of time together. We watch baseball games, go to Eagles games, play poker, go out for drinks/dinner all the time. I can say that my friends and I love our job and everyone I've talked to (after reading the above posts) would do this again.

I can't convince any of you that this is true. Just becasue I love the people here doesn't mean all of you wil. You'll have to come see for yourself during the interview day. However, if any of you have any questions, please message me and we can talk.
 
BIGDAWG- are you telling us that no one left the program from your PGY1 class last year?


I don't dispute that you love it and that you love going to the Eagles games but if you haven't noticed that 5-6 people left from your year then the argument could be made that you are a little out of it. You haven't been paying attention to the happenings of your program.

I did notice that the SARs and JARs do get along pretty well...but shouldn't they anyway?
 
I'm a second year resident at Penn as well. What up BidDawg?

Last year 5-6 people did NOT leave our program.

1 person left for medical reasons
1 person left b/c her fiance matched in fellowship in NYC and she transfered
1 person left AFTER completing a prelim year to go into consulting
1 person left AFTER completing intern year and changed to neurology at Yale

We also gained two residents (one from MGH and one from Mayo Clinic) who left their respective programs.

Noone from our class quit or dropped out b/c of the program or b/c they were burnt.

I came from a pretty big med school and I'm actually impressed by Penn's program. We know our days off for the entire year. We have a golden weekend off every month except when in the MICU and the other 2 days a month are weekend days as well. This is huge for feeling normal. The only time you have weekdays off are when you are in the ICU at HUP or the CCU at Presby. Knowing your schedule in advance makes it really easy to switch schedules.

The intern class gets 2 2-week vacations plus 6 days off around xmas or nyears. 5 weeks of vacation isn't that bad, especially when combined with two months of ambulatory medicine. That leaves 9 months of call. Better than some other "hard core programs" where you have 10 plus months of call. As a second year resident, we get even more elective time (the student who talked about less elective time is wrong). I have 5 1/2 months of call, about 2 months of service time (jeopardy, ED, etc) and the rest is elective time. With that elective time, 6 weeks of it is totally off to do research in anticipation of fellowship applications.

When you are on in-patient services it is very busy. It isn't a cush experience and it isn't meant to be. Like my med school, the residents work really really hard when taking care of in-patients. A lot of my friends that I graduated med school with are working just as hard at other programs, but they don't know there days off until they show up on service and rarely get a weekend off.

Lisa Bellini is geniune. She truly cares about our experience. The reason why admissions went throught the roof last year was b/c a near by hospital closed down and all ambulance/ED admissions diverted to HUP. Our ED is ridiculously busy and when you combine that census with direct clinic admits and outside hospital transfers you get lots and lots of admissions. In one year, she obtained a million dollar funding project in order to create a non-teaching hospitalist service and expanded the NP service - a successfuly maneuver to off-load the previously notorious services. I was very impressed by that.

I look at residency like this. If you go to a large hospital, you work really hard. Residency is tough. Residency is tiring. The lack of sleep adds up as does the stress of continuously taking care of very sick patients. People react to this very differently. Some (rarely) bail (at all programs), some go out and party, some go exercise, some spend time with family, some vent constantly and complain. Coping comes in all flavors. I can tell you this, I have never felt that the administration in this program didn't care about me. I actually feel that it is one of the best things about this program. I was looking for an intense academically oriented place that also genuinely focused on resident well being - and I found it.

I don't get this whole pompous thing that some people are talking about. People here are pretty laid back. The residents all get along really well, look out for each other, and learn from each other constantly. The majority of the faculty are incredibly approachable and are down to earth.

A lot of what was said above by this ONE penn student does not sit true with me. Now that I've completed half of my residency training, I have no regrets about coming to penn. I'm not going to lie, parts of residency suck - but find me a program where that isn't the case...

My advice is to see things for yourself and don't make decisions on an n of 1 - especially when the majority of the numbers given are bogus.
 
You know, this thread really highlights the fact that one really needs to find a program that they think will be the right fit. Going to a program for reputation only is a reasonable choice, but then one should remember that when slugging through the next three years. It will probably payoff with a successful fellowship match.
 
Souljah-

yeah, no.

you are either white-washing info or completely clueless.... I happen to know that at least one of those people didn't leave voluntarily so you are leaving A LOT of info out when you quote those numbers.... you left "B**" out... You also left out the resident that switched from categorical to "primary care track" (although I wasn't really thinking about him/her either). I mean if you are going to start itemizing individual cases you should be complete.;)

You were also incomplete about who joined your ranks as a categorical resident... But I guess you don't know it all.

Honestly, I don't really care what numbers you quote.... what I do know is that as of Feb last year one of your classmates was lamenting to her 3rd year resident about how 6 or 7 interns were leaving the program (2 expulsions and ~5 running for their lives). I actually believe what she had to say (she seemed genuinely stressed out by the whole thing). Now perhaps a couple people didn't match into Radiology as they had planned and stayed put, but to me the fact that people were actively looking for a way out tells me that not all was peachy as you make it sound.

[now as an aside, I am about to stoop to the level of JOHNNYWALKER who was taunting me about the whole honors thing so if you don't want to be offended don't read this rant:....JUST TO BE REAL with you dude... I come from a top 5 institution, not just "a big school", so I will tell you a secret... a High Pass from PENN is pretty much an honors at your dinky spot so :p!!! ALSO, if YOU got honors and think that's why I am writing all of this cause YOU think YOU are hot **** and I am just bitter (NOT!!!), I think you will be surprised during match day when you find out that your honors from STATE-MED don't mean **** at an IVY:p... I on the other hand, will take my HIGHPASS from PENN and dance into a PHAT residency as I have seen my other schoolmates do thank you very much (can we say 16 Radiology matches and 9 with STRAIGHT HIGHPASSES;))...and you better believe that I will be paying attention when people have anything to say about my choice spots...but that is just me, I like to know before I jump]

ONE LAST PLUG FOR PENN= the name does carry some clout, I think as a resident when it comes to matching for fellowships it's basically "if you want it you can have it" over here. Names matter, as my dean told me when he was applying to PENN gen surgery from Georgetown no one would even consider his application at PENN 'cause he wasn't from an IVY, but the PENN students seem to match into some primo spots just cause they are from PENN...so does it come in handy. I guess. The question is- at what cost?
 
This thread was supposed to be about people voicing their opinions, I voiced my opinion that's all there is to it... This is all very subjective, some people like to hear something other than a fake "this program is great" if there are indeed issues that need to be addressed. Others won't believe it even when it comes out of the mouth of their own deans whose job it is to protect them and give them an unbiased heads-up (true story)...whatever... I know I wouldn't sign-up for this place knowing what I do... but that you would just ensures that a great spot will be available somewhere else :).
 
[now as an aside, I am about to stoop to the level of JOHNNYWALKER who was taunting me about the whole honors thing so if you don't want to be offended don't read this rant:....JUST TO BE REAL with you dude... I come from a top 5 institution, not just "a big school", so I will tell you a secret... a High Pass from PENN is pretty much an honors at your dinky spot so !!! ALSO, if YOU got honors and think that's why I am writing all of this cause YOU think YOU are hot **** and I am just bitter (NOT!!!), I think you will be surprised during match day when you find out that your honors from STATE-MED don't mean **** at an IVY... I on the other hand, will take my HIGHPASS from PENN and dance into a PHAT residency as I have seen my other schoolmates do thank you very much (can we say 16 Radiology matches and 9 with STRAIGHT HIGHPASSES)...and you better believe that I will be paying attention when people have anything to say about my choice spots...but that is just me, I like to know before I jump]
Click to expand...

I see that you've had plenty of time to consider how to humiliate yourself in public.
 
Doctor&Geek said:
I see that you've had plenty of time to consider how to humiliate yourself in public.
Click to expand...


Whatever! Ha! deep down you secretly worship PENN (and the other biggies) why else would you spend your precious time agonizing about whether "2 residents left PENN" or "6 residents left PENN". BECAUSE I GUARANTEE! that if we had started this thread about South West Florida State NO ONE would have cared... you would have said "NEXT!" and moved on..to PENN....

As the PENN resident said before, people leave residency programs ALL THE TIME... this is true... YET, you "Doctor&GEEK" are somehow invested enough in this case to read through all these messages to hear all about PENN... WHY is that? is it 'cause YOU wish YOU could be at PENN someday?

However inflammatory that comment may have been, if it weren't true to some extent (that the PENN name will get you whatever you want regardless of your residency director's eval) all of you would not be climbing all over each other trying to get in. BUT you are...'cause it is true.

You are not fooling me buddy...not one bit...you can take the high and mighty tone but the fact that you felt the need to respond just tells me that the comment hit a chord with you...why is that???;)

There is a thin line between love and hate honey...ever heard of indifference?

I am out:p
 
dude..its internal medicine residency..not vietnam war

if people leave, its b/c their career goals are changing. not b/c their environment is uniquely unbearable. for every 1 resident that supposedlly leaves penn, i'm sure there's >20 that finish. that stat shouldn't scare anyone who is A) smart enough to get into penn and B) acknowledges that their residency will be difficult from the start.
 
Although I'm not even thinking about matching in IM and I'm certainly not going to Penn, I'd recommend that applicants talk to the PD directly. I've asked every PD on interview day why residents leave their program, and where they go. Every PD has been more or less honest with me (some more so). Then you can also ask the residents and hear their perspective.

EVERY program in EVERY specialty has residents leave. It's much more common than we realize at the beginning of the interview process. It doesn't necessarily reflect anything about the program itself. Talking to the PD gives you a sense of how honest they are in their self-assessment of the program, how they deal with problem residents, and how they might help you if (god forbid) you realized that you personally had made the wrong choice. Most of us start residency with the best of intentions and commitment. Some of us realize we made the wrong choice. A really good program will assist you to find a better match, and will find a way to cover the extra work so that the left-behind residents don't give up their lives to cover your workload.
 
philly4343 said:
Whatever! Ha! deep down you secretly worship PENN (and the other biggies) why else would you spend your precious time agonizing about whether "2 residents left PENN" or "6 residents left PENN". BECAUSE I GUARANTEE! that if we had started this thread about South West Florida State NO ONE would have cared... you would have said "NEXT!" and moved on..to PENN....

As the PENN resident said before, people leave residency programs ALL THE TIME... this is true... YET, you "Doctor&GEEK" are somehow invested enough in this case to read through all these messages to hear all about PENN... WHY is that? is it 'cause YOU wish YOU could be at PENN someday?

However inflammatory that comment may have been, if it weren't true to some extent (that the PENN name will get you whatever you want regardless of your residency director's eval) all of you would not be climbing all over each other trying to get in. BUT you are...'cause it is true.

You are not fooling me buddy...not one bit...you can take the high and mighty tone but the fact that you felt the need to respond just tells me that the comment hit a chord with you...why is that???;)

There is a thin line between love and hate honey...ever heard of indifference?

I am out:p
Click to expand...

Actually, I'm being considerate because DaBigDawg is one of my friends and former classmates.

Of course, I totally don't mind that you continue to make a hysterical mockery of yourself on the internet. It's highly entertaining - you truly are the epitome of professionalism.
 
DIG FAST said:
was that really necessary?
Click to expand...

relax, please. all I'm telling you is that I don't have any bias toward one program or another, and I don't have anything to gain by posting one opinion or another.
 
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