A (Civil) Discussion of the + / - 's of Online Classes

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Therapist4Chnge

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I would love to learn more about the + / - 's of an online class (we can split it out to a new topic). I've never had one, and though people keep saying they are rigorous and whatnot....it seems like the downsides would really detract from the overall learning.

*edit*

I'd like to have an open discussion without it degrading into people bashing back and forth. Since i've never had one, i'm looking to learn more about them, and to hear from anyone who wants to contribute the $.02.

-t
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Therapist4Chnge said:
I would love to learn more about the + / - 's of an online class (we can split it out to a new topic). I've never had one, and though people keep saying they are rigorous and whatnot....it seems like the downsides would really detract from the overall learning.

-t
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I took 4 online courses and I must say, that you automatically work more on your material due to the fact, that it is not like someone mentioned before a time in class where you can sit in w/o participating. Online you have to comment, take action in online class discussions, and will often be motivated to turn your assignments in early because you are allowed to do so.

I worked probably a little more in my online classes than in the traditional setting. I think it is also more work to write than to speak (sounds weird but is true). Think about it. If you have to write everything you would usually say..........
I liked those classes but I missed the personal interaction. I just like academic settings and my personal preference is mainly just that , with an online class here and there.
 
If you're really motivated I think you can learn a lot...but if you have a tendency to be lazy, like me, it might not be the best option. It's a lot easier to put off studying when you don't have to have your 'C-' grade handed back to you in person by a disappointed teacher. Whereas I would never miss a real test, I often slacked on my online tests because my traditional classes were more...well...real. I had to priorotize and my online classes got the short end of the stick.

I also tend to learn from lectures and active discussion much better than by reading, which is another reason online learning didn't work out for me. Some online classes have discussion groups, but I don't find the virtual discussion as stimulating as being in a real classroom. But if you're one of those people who easily absorbs everything they read, you could probably learn a lot from an online course.
 
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chaos said:
If you're really motivated I think you can learn a lot...but if you have a tendency to be lazy, like me, it might not be the best option. It's a lot easier to put off studying when you don't have to have your 'C-' grade handed back to you in person by a disappointed teacher. Whereas I would never miss a real test, I often slacked on my online tests because my traditional classes were more...well...real. I had to priorotize and my online classes got the short end of the stick.

I also tend to learn from lectures and active discussion much better than by reading, which is another reason online learning didn't work out for me. Some online classes have discussion groups, but I don't find the virtual discussion as stimulating as being in a real classroom. But if you're one of those people who easily absorbs everything they read, you could probably learn a lot from an online course.
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I agree, you have to be truly disciplined and always on the ball. When I took mine, I was on the computer all the time (not that I wouldn't be now, lol).
It is also really interesting to take online classes if you like to figure personalities out, since you can tell pretty quick what participants are about; well---to be fair maybe not in every class, but I took Afro -ethnic studies, a multicultural class online. Boy, those discussions we had were hot. The good thing is that you can think longer before responding, whereas in a traditional setting the situation could rather explode.
 
I like those innovative professors who merge the benefits of online and tradional approaches to teaching. Nothing keeps you up on readings like having a "e-post" due, especially when you will then be responsible for discussing the post later in seminar. Then, you still get the value of face-to-face interaction with an expert merged with a technological mechanism forcing you to getting your readings done in a timely manner;)
 
Leveraging technology is something that we can learn from online classes. I learn best in a traditional classroom setting, but I like having materials easily available to download. This isn't a ground breaking idea (getting stuff by e-mail has been around 10+ years), but I think mainstreaming it was an important step.

-t
 
We are all scientists...right??? There has never been a study that has shown supiority of in person over online or networked didactics.
 
I took most of my online classes (3) during my summer breaks.

It was simply for convenience or to squeeze one class in, otherwise impossible to do.

The main idea was to have only one class I could concentrate on and I did not have to drive to the university (which in L.A. is a big fat plus!)

And I believe that there is no difference, as Psisci mentioned, since I received the same grades and learned an equal amount in those classes as I did in others.
 
Let me just see if I understand this. You are all saying that there would be no difference between an online and resident course. I can only assume that you mean in some cases. I don't know how you could role play in therapy courses to practice interventions in an online format. I'm not sure how you could learn to administer most tests without in-person instruction and observation. Can some one post a little more detail about what types of courses they felt were similar and what format your online courses used. Please see my post on the Fielding thread.
 
Neuro-Dr said:
Let me just see if I understand this. You are all saying that there would be no difference between an online and resident course. I can only assume that you mean in some cases. I don't know how you could role play in therapy courses to practice interventions in an online format. I'm not sure how you could learn to administer most tests without in-person instruction and observation. Can some one post a little more detail about what types of courses they felt were similar and what format your online courses used.
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I'd like to know this also.

Neuro-Dr said:
Please see my post on the Fielding thread.
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Can you copy and paste the post over here? I'd like to keep the online course discussion over here, and have the other thread be about Fielding.

-t
 
From the Fielding Thread....

I'm not sure why I can't seem to stay out of this one. Partly, because I met a professor from another discipline (businnes management) at a wedding and we were discussing that she teaches at a blended format progrom housed by mutiple universities in the Chicago area. Odd I know and I'm still not entirely sure I understand the structure, but she was talking about the rigors of online instruction and students and I think we both agreed that the missing element is the ability to teach the concepts outside of the direct material and the way to ensure that the material taught is actualy done by the student and under the parameters specified. The problem is that the online platform contributes greatly to the class. Several programs run like "distance learning" where assignement are posted, quizzes are "opened" and "closed" online and questions are posted about each weeks reading for discussion.

Other programs use an interactive platform where webcasting of live classes is done with distance students participating in the lecture. Still others involve a video vingette format where piece of an intake of therapy session are shown and then choicepoints and questions posed to the students.

These are VERY different models for delivery and each has some strengths and weaknesses built in. As for Fielding, the quality seems to wax and waene based on the core faculty at the cluster model. A very good friend of mine teaches in one such cluster for the NP re-specialization. He fears the PhD program, but has said that most of his NP studnets came from rather traditional Clinical PhD and some PsyD backgrounds and had some NP exposure. They bring real cases as well as those he provides and get didactic work in the areas you'd expect. In some ways this is more consistent with Nova's PxP program and those students have passed the PxP examine at very high rates compared to the Alliant model, which is failing miserably in that regard. So again, can online education be used effectively within graduate education, there is no doubt that it can add to the process, though my sense is that it is often used as distance education instead.

I also had the opportunity to teach an intro neuroanatomy course with to live sections and one online. I was pretty uncomfortable with the model, but it did offer me some insight into the comparison of students who were all part of the live "brick and mortar" PhD program, but the University wanted to "experiement" with online delivery. It was a disaster. many of the online students failed and were pretty resentful. It was very difficult to breakdown material when they got lost even though they theoretically did the same reading, had entire lectures in written form, had over 400 powerpoint slides and interactive online tutorials. So, I can speak rather directly to the limits of what can be achieved online.

Finally, as an aside, I'm shocked at the limited amount of testing that goes on if your collective posts are to be believed. Traditionally, therapy courses get less testing and assessment courses are more protocol driven, but what about the foundation courses? Maybe this speaks to the EPPP scores more than anything else. I have never taught a course at a medical school or psychology with testing (MC, fill-in-blank) as a strong component of the evaluation process so it is surprising to hear.
I'll add to that. My actual concern is more that threads on these lists tend to get immediately into polarization on the issue, which I think is sort of superficial. There is no doubt that online education is useful, everyone who posts on these listserves learns things in a format impossible elsewhere because of geographic restraints. I routinely use the internet to look up information and plan lectures, so I'd be lying if I didn't say it benefits all graduate and professional studies. I get answers from colleagues on cases on the NP listserves as well.

I think the issue is what format the information takes and whether the class BENEFITS from being online or blended, or whether the educational quality is diminished in an effort to reach a wider audiance.
 
I've never taken an online course, but I have had substantial knowledge of traditional + online (aka BLACKBOARD).

One of my classes, the professor recorded his lecture and put it online (so students can come to class or choose to listen to it at their convenience, or both). Although this may be a self-selected bias since most likely more motivated students will go to class while those that procrastinate will put off listening to lectures until 2-3 days before an exam, those that attend lecture tend to do a lot better in the class. Furthermore, in this format, I've found that the professor can often allow their students to ask questions and other clarification DURING lecture. I've never seen an online course allow that.

Another one of my class has my professor holding office hours in an online chat every week, and that was great because you can get a hold of that transcript if you can't make office hours or you want to see what is important and what isn't.

I do have a question to ask people who've taken online courses, how do you give presentation and speeches? In my communication course, each week, students go to the front of the class and give presentation while we "grade" and comment on their style, speech, and presentation. I'm sure you could do a "live meeting" but it's different delivering a speech to a webcam versus one to a class of 200 people. Can you give an oral dissertation presentation online? Is that fair? Just some questions I've pondered. Thanks.
 
I really do not think good public speaking is a primary predictor of good clinical practice.
Nobody can do online internships, residencies etc... that makes no sense. However the majority of the coursework that is not directly applied can be delivered in an online or real-time video manner. I had quite a bit of experience with this approach in the MS program in psychopharm, and the only benefit I saw to actually being at the site the lecturer was presenting was getting to chat with them on breaks.
 
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Quynh2007 said:
I've never taken an online course, but I have had substantial knowledge of traditional + online (aka BLACKBOARD).

One of my classes, the professor recorded his lecture and put it online (so students can come to class or choose to listen to it at their convenience, or both). Although this may be a self-selected bias since most likely more motivated students will go to class while those that procrastinate will put off listening to lectures until 2-3 days before an exam, those that attend lecture tend to do a lot better in the class. Furthermore, in this format, I've found that the professor can often allow their students to ask questions and other clarification DURING lecture. I've never seen an online course allow that.


Response
Why would you need to ask DURING lecture? You can ask after lecture, and that is exactely what you could do online, only that online you would have more time to think about your question and the prof to respond (what they usually like:D )
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psisci said:
I really do not think good public speaking is a primary predictor of good clinical practice.
Nobody can do online internships, residencies etc... that makes no sense. However the majority of the coursework that is not directly applied can be delivered in an online or real-time video manner. I had quite a bit of experience with this approach in the MS program in psychopharm, and the only benefit I saw to actually being at the site the lecturer was presenting was getting to chat with them on breaks.
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Yeah, I agree

Why would someone even mention internships when it comes to online learning? Everybody knows that's impossible , and there is no point to it. Distance education can be engaging, you can have "live"-discussions, watch videos, e-mail each other, submit papers online, listen to lectures over headphones, and do about everything that does not necessarily require to leave your house and go to an internship site. But you also don't do your internship in a classroom, right?
 
So again, let me try to understand this. Are you all taking therapy and assessment courses online? How would you do that?

Also, why would you not ask questions during a lecture. The students who take my NP courses always ask questions during the lecture, that is when questions about the material are most difficult and in need of clarification.

Are you all talking about graduate psychology courses? When did communication become part of that curricula?
 
Neuro-Dr said:
So again, let me try to understand this. Are you all taking therapy and assessment courses online? How would you do that?

Also, why would you not ask questions during a lecture. The students who take my NP courses always ask questions during the lecture, that is when questions about the material are most difficult and in need of clarification.

Are you all talking about graduate psychology courses? When did communication become part of that curricula?
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Of course, you can ask during lecture, but you can also ask afterwards, can't you? You can equally ask during any assignment or time while taking distance education classes and your questions will be answered in a timely manner. Clarification can be done via distance too. Why does that sound so alien to you? Therapy can be done in a hybrid model, where students take an online course that replaces supervision and do the actual therapy at their sites.
By the way, would you ever teach an online class/course?
 
So, you're not reading the thread start to finish.

I think I've outlined a fair bit of work that I've done in the area as well as my support for online pieces in the education process. When neuroanatomy course have been compared the results have been dismal with a fair amount of prepping. The complaints from other professors is that the therapy components have 3-6 courses that are required PRIOR to entering practica. Thus a fair amount of role play, supervision and correction goes on PRIOR to turning that studenbt loose.

I did not have good experience with students "waiting until later" with regard to neuroanatomy. The materail would buil on itself.

I'm still puzzled by the fact that no one has taken any MC, or fill-in-the-blank tests to date in graduate school.
 
well, I was just responding to the question the OP asks, which is about online classes, which to me not only relates to clinical psych since I'm still in undergrad, so I don't have much experience in that area.

Questions asked during lecture is often very important, especially when the prof. sometimes gives conflicting (sometimes even wrong) information, and students can ask for clarification/correction at that same time.

And on a slightly related note, have LOR from professors who teach online similar to someone who teaches in the traditional sense? I can understand the "this student did everything I ask, turned work in early" but I like the traditional setting where I can go to office hours/dinner with the prof. to develop a relationship that will allow for my LOR to be extremely personal. I can't imagine an online class having an informal discussion where the prof. ends up learning a lot about the student. who knows? not me.
 
ND, if people cannot handle the additional responsibility then so be it, but that is their fault not that of the method. This discussion is getting a bit...way off course as we are doing this in the Doc forum. Most CME is done in a distance format now, most agencies recognize this as equal training, only those who have something to lose do not...like those who are employed to traditionally train docs, and big university who wants nothing to change so they do not lose their outmoded jobs. :cool:
 
psisci said:
I had quite a bit of experience with this approach in the MS program in psychopharm, and the only benefit I saw to actually being at the site the lecturer was presenting was getting to chat with them on breaks.
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How did you find taking the 'nitty-gritty' (for lack of a better term) courses like neuroanatomy, orgo, etc? I found the in-class experience to be really helpful because of the detail, and being able to not only pick the brains of my profs, but also my fellow classmates. I think most of the information can do well in that format (with all of the powerpoints, and supplemental notes). One of the most useful pieces for me was the whiteboard stuff in class, though I think you can replicate that with the right software. Do programs use their own custom software, or mainly go with the traditional stuff? (Blackboard, etc?)

-t
 
Quynh2007 said:
well, I was just responding to the question the OP asks, which is about online classes, which to me not only relates to clinical psych since I'm still in undergrad, so I don't have much experience in that area.

Questions asked during lecture is often very important, especially when the prof. sometimes gives conflicting (sometimes even wrong) information, and students can ask for clarification/correction at that same time.

And on a slightly related note, have LOR from professors who teach online similar to someone who teaches in the traditional sense? I can understand the "this student did everything I ask, turned work in early" but I like the traditional setting where I can go to office hours/dinner with the prof. to develop a relationship that will allow for my LOR to be extremely personal. I can't imagine an online class having an informal discussion where the prof. ends up learning a lot about the student. who knows? not me.
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You went to dinner with your prof? :laugh:

Now I understand the quality of in-class study:laugh:

Don't tell anyone that you did though;)
 
psycholytic said:
Response
Why would you need to ask DURING lecture? You can ask after lecture, and that is exactely what you could do online, only that online you would have more time to think about your question and the prof to respond (what they usually like:D )
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THat's a good point, though it may come down to the learner's style. Personally, I like being able to ask questions during the lecture because it seems to 'stick' better when i'm in the moment, as opposed to going back to it. That being said, I can see how being able to formulate a more complete response could be helpful.

-t
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
How did you find taking the 'nitty-gritty' (for lack of a better term) courses like neuroanatomy, orgo, etc? I found the in-class experience to be really helpful because of the detail, and being able to not only pick the brains of my profs, but also my fellow classmates. I think most of the information can do well in that format (with all of the powerpoints, and supplemental notes). One of the most useful pieces for me was the whiteboard stuff in class, though I think you can replicate that with the right software. Do programs use their own custom software, or mainly go with the traditional stuff? (Blackboard, etc?)

-t
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Prof's often post Power Point presentations on Blackboard for you to look at and download if you need to. You can also pick everybody's brain via computer, just like we do here.
 
many professors have "coffee with the professors" and "take a professor to dinner" type. At least at my school, professors take an active role beyond the classroom, becoming resident faculty advisors for residential halls, etc. so, it's easy to get to know profs and for them to get to know you if you seek it out.
 
As a graduate of an online doctoral program (yes, in clinical psychology) and a former campus-based but now current online instructor, I find the "debate" about online learning rather curious.

It is just a different teaching modality, no more no less. Take your pick: discovery-based learning, student-centered, constructivist, hands-on, self-study ... the list goes on and on ... there is a seemingly endless variety of learning "packages." None are one-size-fits-all.

It seems that people want some sort of definitive yes or no answer about whether online learning is "just as good" as the conventional campus-based variety.

But it doesn't take a longitudinal, factor analyzed, metanalysis to recognize the core differences: online delivered classes required consistent engagement of student and instructor and therefore also require a higher level of self-motivation. (It also helps to be a fairly proficient reader and writer.)

Is this "better" learning? For some yes, for some no.

In this forum, however, a larger concern does appear to be whether clinical psychology skills can be taught via distance learning. Given the fact that the major distance learning clinical programs all require face-to-face "residencies" this is a bit of a red herring. Yes, the legitimate next question is "Are the residencies adequate?" but that same question could be posed to a variety of campus-based programs. One can graduate from a predominently research PhD program in psychology and still be licensed (assuming completion of adequate supervised practice hours) but the underlying education would not have incorporated much "hands-on" therapy practice. (Of course, given their different emphasis, there could be an entire debate over whether PsyDs are much better prepared clinicians than any PhD.)

In my N=1 personal sample, in two years of practicum and internship, I never had my therapeutic or assessment skills criticized or even questioned. (Though a fellow intern from an APA accredited campus based program did need remediation for assessment skills.)

Online learning -- like college in general -- is not for everyone.
But it is a viable means of advancing one's education.

-----

For psisci,

A very basic EBSCOhost search for "online education" returned 388 hits. (Selected bibliography follows).

Barry, M., and Runyan, G. (1995). A review of distance learning studies in the U.S. military. The American Journal of Distance Education, 9 (3): 37–47.

Carey, J. M. (2001). Effective Student Outcomes: A Comparison of Online and Face-to-Face Delivery Modes. DEOSNEWS, 11(9). ISSN 1062-9416

Cheng, H. C., Lehman, J. & Armstrong, P. (1991). Comparison of performance and attitude in traditional and computer conferencing classes. The American Journal of Distance Education 5(3): 51–64.

DeNeui, D. L. & Dodge, T. L. (2006) Asynchronous Learning Networks and Student Outcomes: The Utility of Online Learning Components in Hybrid Courses. Journal of Instructional Psychology, 33(4). 256 - 259.

Lee, J., Carter-Wells, J., Glaeser, B., Ivers, K., & Street, C. (2006). Facilitating the development of a learning community in an online graduate program. Quarterly Review of Distance Education, 7(1). 13 - 33.

Qing L. & Akins, M. (2005) Sixteen myths about online teaching and learning in higher education: Don't believe everything you hear. TechTrends: Linking Research & Practice to Improve Learning, 49(4). 51 - 60.

Shachar, M., & Neumann, Y., (2003). Differences Between Traditional and Distance Education Academic Performances: A meta-analytic approach.
International Review of Research in Open and Distance Learning, 4(2). http://www.irrodl.org/content/v4.2/index.html#mainsection


And organizations devoted to the study of online education:
The Sloan Consortium
http://www.aln.org/index.asp

Penn State
American Center for the Study of Distance Learning
http://www.ed.psu.edu/acsde/deos/deos.asp
[currently being reorganized]

Athabasca University
The International Review of Research in Open & Distance Learning
http://www.irrodl.org/index.html
 
You are preaching to the choir. My challenge was for anyone to find anything saying online was worse. In the UK, the open university is very highly regarded and pedagogy is heavily studied.
 
I'm not sure I understand the relation of CMEs to graduate education. If by agencies you are refering to Boards, then it would not matter whether CMEs are better/worse/equal in an online format since these are not considered appropriate for skill acquisition, but rather skill maintanence. In that, you can't sit for the NP board with a NP foundation acquired from weekend formats, national conferences and lectures regardless of their delivery. To use this as a supporting argument for online graduate education is odd (to me).

My point is not one of blanketed support or critism of online education. Again, I think we all recognize that it has value within any program. My unanswered questions are about the application of online methods of instruction to all aspects of skill acquisition within the clinical doctorate degree. I can share with you (and have) that several instructors (myslef included) have found that some courses translate better than others. We have not seen differences in say social psych and hostoty & systems in residency formats versus online going beyond student preference which seems to be self selective.

The APA does not allow for outside agencies to be wholly responsible for the acquisition of a skill and thus relying on high quality practica and internships to train the student in applied areas is insufficient for APA approval. It also has created problems for HLC approval in some cases since the university is unable to provide internal outcome measures on student learning for training they didn't do. This is why the on-site supervision has become so important. In addition, their is another potential issues that can arise: "how do you determine that the post, quiz, project or other learning outcome was actually done by the student?" We can agree that ethics are important, but I have seen no evidence that it makes it more prevelant in clinical psychology, particularly when survey data still suggests 5% of psychologists sleep with their patients.

Another issue is how oral skills are taught online, this could be achieved in video format, but no one has said whether this actually occurs in their courses? How assessment protocols administers, scored and interpreted.

In short, my questions are similar to those I have on a variety of topics, which is not goodness or badness but why and how. I do not have a psyd and phd together so I can't give you the pros and cons, but my educational history was pretty traditional, and I have been boarded twice in the areas I specialize in. I have taught and supervised students from PhD, PsyD and med schools, so I have some expereinces across the board. I get frustrated when these discussions degenerate into defensiveness and world views. I see a place for everything, but believe that all methods can and will be abused if not evaluated. There is nothing wrong (IMO) with professional school education delivery, the contact hours, course requirements and faculty bios are fine. However, I watched one program drop its required credit hours from 124 to 98. This was not of the faculty members choosing. The practicum requirements of another went from 2000 to 1200 in another. I believe these occured to increase admissions, and that result was evident. Is the problem with the program or the PsyD model. I think not. The issue is the economics and the administration. To me. Can their students perform, most do, but the bi-modal results are evident to me and speak to problems with adminissions.

This means that we must all agree that all decisions made in the adminstration of graduate programs are not wholly done with academic excellence in mind. PhDs recruite those that will teach for them and advance the research, PsyD recruit those that can pay the fees that fund the school or (in for-profit models) those that fund the share-holders, and online programs recruit those who need a program to fit within their life. None of these reasons are inherently good or bad, but should make the scientists inside us ask whether they have the potential to compromise the quality of content delivery, in what ways, and for what topics.

Thus, there is no "yes" or "no" answer but a need for the types of honests discussions that have lately become more scarse in my readings of recent threads.
 
Well said! I agree with you for the most part. I am not sure where anyone wrote in reference to CME's. I referenced the open university in the UK which is a degree based program (MSc/MA and PhD, EdD). It has been around for ever, and is a well respected degree. I also mentioned that there is a lot of research on educational formats in the UK, and I know this because I am an alum of the Univ of Education, Univ of London. I too see the many problems in the way psychology is taught today, and it is nowhere worse than Ca. I do not see it getting better, but alot of problems have been solved. The hx of psychology training in Ca is very interesting, and basically up until about 10-15 years ago one could literally purchase a degree based upon life experience, and even get licensed if they had the wherewithall to pass the exams......scarey
 
see your post (#20)
 
Neuro.....very well said.

I'm concerned that the APA would let a program cut from 124 to 98 and 2000 to 1200. I think the clinical hours are vital, and if anything....they should be increased (if possible).

-t
 
The APA does not have a policy on these issues. They have core requiements and those can easily fit into either model with any number of training hours. It would depend greatly on your self-identification as a program. You can graduate from on APA approved program with no therapy courses and no therapy practicum hours. Remeber the APA does not mean CLINICAL Psychology alone and it does not mean APPLIED Psychology either.
 
Psychwhy and Psycholytic are you willing to share the ways your program approaches some of the issues in my previous posts?
 
psychwhy said:
A very basic EBSCOhost search for "online education" returned 388 hits. (Selected bibliography follows).....
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I don't really have the energy to get into this debate, but I have to pipe up here. Are you telling me that the very esteemed and certainly unbiased journals the American Journal of Distance Education, TechTrends: Linking Research & Practice to Improve Learning, and International Review of Research in Open and Distance Learning published favorable articles about distance learning??? :wow:


ETA: Forgot one: DEOSNEWS...(from their website): "Established in 1991, DEOSNEWS is published monthly to promote distance education scholarship, research, and practice...."
 
psychanon said:
I don't really have the energy to get into this debate, but I have to pipe up here. Are you telling me that the very esteemed and certainly unbiased journals the American Journal of Distance Education, TechTrends: Linking Research & Practice to Improve Learning, and International Review of Research in Open and Distance Learning published favorable articles about distance learning??? :wow:
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Good one :laugh:
 
Neuro-Dr said:
Psychwhy and Psycholytic are you willing to share the ways your program approaches some of the issues in my previous posts?
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Give me a specific one , you want to know about and I will try to answer it.
 
psychanon: Are you telling me that the very esteemed and certainly unbiased journals the American Journal of Distance Education, TechTrends: Linking Research & Practice to Improve Learning, and International Review of Research in Open and Distance Learning published favorable articles about distance learning??? :wow:
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And let the logical fallacies begin ... using a red herring to build a straw person, perhaps?


  1. Just because some of these titles have "distance learning" in the title doesn't mean they unequivocally and with bias support distance learning. Are you suggesting the Journal of Clinical and Counseling Psychology never publishes studies with negative conclusions?

  2. The aforementioned EBSCOHost search did employ the "peer-reviewed" limiter, supposedly the foundation of "true" research. But peer review is only valid if it produces articles negating premises we already dismiss? Nice way to reverse a confirmation bias

  3. There was nothing in my original post suggesting this was meant to be a comprehensive literature review using only the most impeccable sources. It was a quick search done to refute a perceived challenge that there was no research done on distance learning.



psychanon: I don't really have the energy to get into this debate, but I have to pipe up here.
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Yes, thanks so much for the "hit-and-run" criticism. So much for a reasoned and reasonable -- or civil, as the OP requested -- discussion.
 
OK, Neuro-Dr, I've seen how it is all too common on this forum for trying to honestly share information to be responded to by petty sniping. But you seem to be sincere in your request, so here it goes:

Neuro-Dr: Let me just see if I understand this. You are all saying that there would be no difference between an online and resident course. I can only assume that you mean in some cases.
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Actually, I don't think anyone is so naive as to suggest there is no difference. The contention, I believe, is that "different" automatically means "lesser" or "insufficient." The underlying follow up question is: What proof exists that the "conventional" model is truly effective?

We all employ a confirmation bias to our own experiences to varying degrees. I do not have first hand experience with a conventional clinical psychology doctoral program. However, from the various descriptions that have been shared here, it seems pretty obvious that even campus-based programs have widely varying foci and levels of quality.

The general criticism of distance learning in psychology is that "obviously" such programs cannot provide the same types of learning experiences as campus-based programs. The underlying premise being one can only learn therapy/assessment in the same format as is done (I presume) in campus based programs. However, of the major distance-delivered clinical programs of which I am aware, they all require face-to-face didactic sessions.

Neuro-Dr: I don't know how you could role play in therapy courses to practice interventions in an online format. I'm not sure how you could learn to administer most tests without in-person instruction and observation.
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Again, I have no first hand knowledge of campus-based doctoral program pedagogy. I do know, for example, that the Albert Ellis Institute provides a home-study version of its REBT practica where the student submits video/audio tapes of sessions. I completed one of their face-to-face practica and then was permitted to sit in on the supervision of the current fellows where their cases were reviewed by listening to audio tapes of the sessions. Seems to be there doesn't need to literally be an "instructor in the room" for learning therapeutic skills to occur.

But to directly answer your question about my doctoral program
Coursework
Assessment:
PSY 7610 - Tests and Measurements
PSY 8230 - Psychological Testing
PSY 8240 - Advanced Psychological Testing
PSY 8250 - Psycho-Neurological Assessments
(These also required completion of practice batteries using the standard "big name" instruments.)

Diagnostics/Therapy
PSY 7320 - Advanced Biological Psychology
PSY 8220 - Advanced Psychopathology
PSY 8310 - Theories of Psychotherapy
PSY 8320 - Research in Psychotherapy

These courses also had to be taken simultaneously with a year-long series of intensive face-to-face didactic experiences. Beginning with a two week session where there were extensive intervention and assessment labs, followed by nine weekend sessions where additional techniques and instructions were provided, culiminating in a second two week session where proficiencies were assessed and evaluated.

Now, I know that reasonable people can disagree about the best approach to take in teaching the skills inherent to the practice of psychology. However, at least from my personal experience in this distance program, I certainly do not feel like I lacked for any experential facets. In fact, during my practica and internship, I was never criticized for any lack of therapeutic or assessment skills. (One intern colleague from an APA-accredited campus based program, however, required remediation on assessment skills.)
 
Psychwhy, I appreciate your candor and I hope it is clear from my posts that I wellcome technology in the teaching paradigm. Can I follow up by asking the format the online portions used? It looks like theory was driven online and then experiential pieces in the face-to-face sessions which is what I had suspected.

Is the format for the online, weekly readings, postings and testing and papers. Or are there video lectures, webcasting lectures and mutli-media interaction?
 
I completed the majority of my coursework from 2000-2003, when online course delivery was still relatively "new".

As such, most all of the online course delivery was in the form of threaded discussion postings. Using standard texts, we generally read 200 or so pages/week and were required to answer two discussion questions/week while responding to others' answers. Most all classes then culiminated with a 20 - 30 page paper. While this may not be the "same" as campus-based classes, it is the basis of an oft cited benefit of online learning -- your participation is required. There was no coming late to class or vegging in the back of the room. The assessment courses were an exception, the submission of a set number of batteries and an assessment report taking the place of the final paper.

During one therapy class they did use a very rudimentary "decision tree" type simulation. At the time, the school acknowledged the limitations of the simulation, but was constrained by the general lack of high-speed Internet connections. Now that broadband is much more common, I presume that might be changing.

However, from my experience as an online instructor, I just had some students complain about the delivery of a recent (decidedly low-tech) exam because their dial-up connections didn't deliver the questions quickly enough.

Personally, I am frustrated that even though such technologies as streaming video and real-time web conferencing are available, they are not more frequently utilized in online learning. I have access to some programs that would literally permit me to create and share a live (or recorded) lecture to supplement a PowerPoint presentation. However, there still are some logistical problems in ability of students to access such presentations. Ironically, a commonly cited benefit of online learning -- the ability for such offerings to reach virtually every corner of the globe -- is limited by the reality that while the World Wide Web may indeed be "world wide," the speed at which people access it is certainly not universal.
 
Thanks for your response and I think this speaks to the concerns that others have of online learning. Mainly, the emerging technology. I taught a forensic course where several department of corrections staff wanted to take it and we webcast it in real time with a TA on site with them to email questions to me as they came up. It worked great and I thought the experience was equal to that of being there. I think any one who wanted today to offer such online courses should invest in this type of technology. It might not be needed for every class, but a student willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars should be given the technology to participate. Some universities give laptops to their undergrads so I don't see the issue. I think when delivery of content really steps up to these advances, you won't hear the complaints and the access to the best and brightest will expand as it has over the past two decades.
 
psychwhy said:
And let the logical fallacies begin ... using a red herring to build a straw person, perhaps?


  1. Just because some of these titles have "distance learning" in the title doesn't mean they unequivocally and with bias support distance learning. Are you suggesting the Journal of Clinical and Counseling Psychology never publishes studies with negative conclusions?

  2. The aforementioned EBSCOHost search did employ the "peer-reviewed" limiter, supposedly the foundation of "true" research. But peer review is only valid if it produces articles negating premises we already dismiss? Nice way to reverse a confirmation bias

  3. There was nothing in my original post suggesting this was meant to be a comprehensive literature review using only the most impeccable sources. It was a quick search done to refute a perceived challenge that there was no research done on distance learning.



Yes, thanks so much for the "hit-and-run" criticism. So much for a reasoned and reasonable -- or civil, as the OP requested -- discussion.
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First of all, I'm sorry if my tone veered from the civil nature of this thread. It was not my intention. Sarcasm comes easily to me, and I hope it didn't come across in a hostile way. I am staying away from entering into the meatier areas of this debate not because I don't have strong opinions nor because I can't back them up, but because others have voiced my opinions quite articulately, and frankly because like most grad students I have no time.

Second, I spoke up not because I know anything about the literature on distance learning, but because as a scientist I get alarmed when people cite shoddy sources. I know you meant this as a cursory review, but you implied that this is a sampling of the literature.

Would JCCP publish a study with negative conclusions? What do you mean by negative conclusions, first of all-- negative for what? Second, JCCP's scope (found at http://www.apa.org/journals/ccp/description.html) say nothing of advocating a particular viewpoint. DEOSNEWS, in contrast, specifically states that its purpose is to advocate distance education. Journal of Distance Education is published by the Canadian Association for Distance Education, and its editorial board is filled with people with a vested interest in promoting distance education. It's kind of like Journal of Frito-Lay publishing a study of how delicious potato chips are. Peer review only works when the so-called peers can be objective.
 
Neuro-Dr: I taught a forensic course where several department of corrections staff wanted to take it and we webcast it in real time with a TA on site with them to email questions to me as they came up. It worked great and I thought the experience was equal to that of being there. I think any one who wanted today to offer such online courses should invest in this type of technology. It might not be needed for every class
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While I appreciate your point, I would counter, why would it be needed for any class? The class you describe sounds like a wonderful simulation of a campus-based class, but it again begs the question: Is the lecture class the only viable and legitmate means of imparting knowledge?

It cannot be ignored that a major reason for the popularity of asynchronous online classes is the freedom it provides the student to not be locked into a particular time and place. The format you describe does eliminate the need to be in a particular place, but the student must be available at the same time as the instructor, particularly challeging given the global attendance of many classes.

Forget global attendance, what if the third shift corrections officers wanted to take your class? Were you going to stay up and webcast at 3 AM or require them to stay up and "attend" the class at 10 AM?

Neuro-Dr: ... but a student willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars should be given the technology to participate. Some universities give laptops to their undergrads so I don't see the issue.
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The underlying problem isn't about the availability of technology, but the inadequacy of the infrastructure. Sure, FedEx can deliver a laptop practically anywhere but that doesn't mean someone in rural America is going to have access to a broadband connection that will permit the fullest use of materials on the Internet.

I have a current student who lives on an island off the northern coast of Maine. Even though low-tech online classes can reach her, should she be denied access to online learning because high-tech offerings are impractical because it would not be profitable for the phone and/or cable company to hook her up to broadband?

Neuro-Dr: I think when delivery of content really steps up to these advances, you won't hear the complaints and the access to the best and brightest will expand as it has over the past two decades.
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Sorry, but to me this isn't just about a different means of transmitting the same presentation but a sea change in pedagogy. While I understand why some may resist relinquishing the "conventional" methods, no one has provided compelling evidence of the superiority of those methods.
 
Well, you raise some interesting points. Let me say that the webcasting can be recorded and sent through video and watched whenever. However, I often give case examples and can give explanations in real time that would be recorded for later, so I don't the issue of convienence is one really. These students wanted to be a part of the process and thus it met their needs.

In medicine, the hippocratic oath is to do no harm. However, in order to prove that an intervention would not harm someone, it has to be proven in safety studies. Thus, part of the efficacy trials is to prove WHAT the intervention does. In 1994-7 we conducted several studies on content mapping for people in video versus lecture classes and the software used to gauge the similarity of the associations made between those who were at lecture and those who only watched on video. The program indicated that the associations between professor and student were more similar in the lecture model.

I have never had a graduate student not particpate in a class, mainly because the classes never exceed 10-15 and I just won't let. them. My worry when a student is not taking a test in front of me is whether I'm measuring their performance or someone elses.
I think the fact that there is data that suggests convential programs work says nothing about why they work and some skills can be taught online with no detraction from the learning, there may be other risks you run in terms of how much volume of material can be posted and whether the lenght/breadth/depth of questions asked and answers given in class are different from online posts, I don't know the answer to this. We all seem to aggree that there may be limits to what can be done and costs and benefits to each.
 
psychwhy said:
In my N=1 personal sample, in two years of practicum and internship, I never had my therapeutic or assessment skills criticized or even questioned. (Though a fellow intern from an APA accredited campus based program did need remediation for assessment skills.)
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I'm considering a PsyD online as well. How hard was it to find internship (for my case it's California or Texas)? My program requires learner to independently find internship.
 
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