I had thought about helping people most of my life but I just feel that pharmacy is very limiting and I had thought about going to med school. I have a PharmD but I really would like to open my own rural medical clinic. I am 31 now and had thought about going back to MD/DO school in a few years. I just wanted to get your opinion on some obstacles I might face and any advice you may have....Thanks
Pharmacist wanting to go to med school
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I feel the same way and kinda in the same shoes as you. How long have you been practicing and how good is your UG gpa. Have you taken the MCAT yet? Some people are reluctant to say that having a pharm D background will help you much. It isn't a trump card but will still help you. You will still probably want to look into volunteering and working with/shadowing docs...
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I would say forget about all of the volunteering nonsense and years of asstic work to get a high score on the MCAT at your age... Take a two month review for the MCAT, and if it isn't higher than a 27 at your age I'd go to the Carribean and do an accelerated program at a school like the AUC (36 months) and get on with your life(20 months there, 16 months in U.S.)... AUC you can practice in all 50 states and their one of the TOP 3... Also, they cater to older people, the average age of entrance is around 26 and usually have a student body where 90% of them are U.S. Citizens.... Good luck... www.aucmed.com
I had a 3.1 in undergrad and graduated in 2005 with my PharmD. I have a BS in Chemistry too. I think that I would need at least a 28-30 to be considered competitive for med school. Should I think about the MD or DO route more? I think that I have a unique background that would help my chances in getting in. I think that I am going to apply in 2-3 years, get my bills in in order and that would give me enough time to study for the MCAT.
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Ok, I'm am a nontraditional as well so I hope I can offer some good advice:
1. Your 3.1 is too low for an MD school. You will need a 33+ to compensate if you want to have a shot. It's also lower than what most DO schools require but you can probably get in with a 30 and a 3.1.
2. You DO need to do some volunteering. Currently, your previous pharm experience means adcoms are unsure why you want to do med school and want to know that you have researched this option. Your low GPA means that adcoms will not forgive you for your lack of clinical experience for your high stats. Also, volunteering does not have to be time consuming. Once a week for a few hours is good enough. Shadowing is recommended as it can cement your decision and looks good on your application with minimal work.
3. Your pharmD will not hurt your chances but you will need to answer 'why medicine?' question. You also need to make sure your stats are up to snuf. You get no brownie points for having completed a pharmD (i.e they won't cut you slack on your MCAT).
4. To raise your GPA, you may want to consider taking some upper level science courses at a local university. While studying for the MCAT, I realized there was a point when I could not raise my MCAT score any further no matter how much I tried. If you can't hit above 30, you probably won't get into med school unless you can raise your GPA. Given that you already did your pharmD, perhaps doing a special masters program may be better since you would need a lot more undergrad credits to raise your undergrad GPA. A special masters program takes a year to do and if you did well, can help 'erase' poor undergrad performance.
Hope that helps.
1. Your 3.1 is too low for an MD school. You will need a 33+ to compensate if you want to have a shot. It's also lower than what most DO schools require but you can probably get in with a 30 and a 3.1.
2. You DO need to do some volunteering. Currently, your previous pharm experience means adcoms are unsure why you want to do med school and want to know that you have researched this option. Your low GPA means that adcoms will not forgive you for your lack of clinical experience for your high stats. Also, volunteering does not have to be time consuming. Once a week for a few hours is good enough. Shadowing is recommended as it can cement your decision and looks good on your application with minimal work.
3. Your pharmD will not hurt your chances but you will need to answer 'why medicine?' question. You also need to make sure your stats are up to snuf. You get no brownie points for having completed a pharmD (i.e they won't cut you slack on your MCAT).
4. To raise your GPA, you may want to consider taking some upper level science courses at a local university. While studying for the MCAT, I realized there was a point when I could not raise my MCAT score any further no matter how much I tried. If you can't hit above 30, you probably won't get into med school unless you can raise your GPA. Given that you already did your pharmD, perhaps doing a special masters program may be better since you would need a lot more undergrad credits to raise your undergrad GPA. A special masters program takes a year to do and if you did well, can help 'erase' poor undergrad performance.
Hope that helps.
You raise a good point about the salary, but I honestly (and I know you have heard this before) but I am not in it for the money. There is a point you reach in your life when you ask yourself, "Have I done enough with my life?" "Have I achieved my maximum potential?" "Was I able to help the most people?" I think that I have reached that point. I do enjoy working with patients as a pharmacist but I really think sometimes that I can do more. I know that I will probably be in debt for a long time but so is everyone else. I think that there are a lot of people out there that are left out of the medical system and they need someone who understands their situation. i was inspired by this article I read a few years ago about a retiring NY physician that didnt take insurance, only charged 10 dollars for an office visit and gave medications out for free. Hopefully, I will be able to do something similar.
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I still think going to the Carribean would be a wise decision, you can get federal aid and stafford loans.. What if you wait 3 years , take the MCAT, and can't get into a U.S. D.O or MD.... Just because your a Pharm D., doesn't mean much because alot of people applying have been in scientific journals and stuff-->and that doesn't always help them...Also, PhD's apply and don't get in... Your talking about PhD's in neuroscience, biomedicine, biochemical engineering...Your best shot at a U.S. M.D. is to apply to your state institution... I raised my GPA well over the 3.2 minimum for my state and they basically through my app in the trash... And I've even did all the research crap... Stem cell research, publications, 2 years volunteer work, etc.... I did get accepted elsewhere but barely(put on waitlist and accepted after)..And I'm way over a 3.1 (3.5) and a 33 MCAT after retaking it... Applied to 20 places 1 interview and 1 acceptance...Good luck... That's why I urge you to reconsider this option before possibly being let down 5 years more into your life... Medschool acceptance is pure luck, and its not a fair process... But, I guess if you insist on applying with a 3.1 and 31 MCAT, you better get a masters to raise your undergrad GPA from god knows when... Also, I don't know an M.D. school that will even look at your application with a 3.1, 3.2 is usually the bare minimum and 2% of all applicants get accepted with a 3.2...
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Go straight to the source that you're hoping to impress. Speak to the admissions offices, and do not go directly for the Caribbean before you get a true assessment from those who call the shots. Get a decent MCAT and apply, because it doesn't hurt to try.
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I wouldn't listen to this, and if what you want to do is become a MD then I wouldn't go the DO route, but that would definantly be personal decision. You will however need to assess you situation and recognize that it may end up being pretty hard to get in. Try calling some of the schools in your state, and maybe a few more, talk to someone in admissions, explain your situation and find out what They think. They are usually honest, some tend to be rather blunt but this will definantly help. If it's your dream then shoot for it.
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I soo concur. But no one is going to listen to us. They have to see it for themselves, and see that it's sooo not worth the lost income. If I had been able to have a job that paid over >100k before med school that I didn't hate, I would soo have stuck to it. Being 28, with $80k in debt, no savings, no ira, no nothing, with about 5 more years before I start seeing good income and interest continuing to build up yearly is so damn disheartening. Med school is over rated in some cases. Like this one with the OP.
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What the hell difference does it make MD/DO? If he trully wants to open up a low income clinic and trully help the poor, it makes not a bit of difference. Doesn't sound to me like he/she prefer's one or the other anyway. To the OP, it makes no difference which route you take, unless you are interested in something super competitive like rad-onc, ortho and such because I hear those are a little easier to get in as an MD, but that's just hearsay and there are programs out there who don't accept DO's. I'm sure if you kick but in school and your steps you'll be on the same playing field as any competitive MD.
I still wouldn't go back to school if I were you, but since it seems you made up your mind, go either route. DO's are friendlier to non-trads so you might have a better shot there. Good luck.
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If you don't know what the "shots" are looking for you haven't done your research...Do you know how the typically applicant gets into medical school in the U.S.? Those who call the shots wrote a book on it, or no-one would get accepted to medical school.. This book is called the MSAR, and I'm pretty sure the "SHOTS" are looking for a fairly high MCAT (Usuallly a 30 based on the average), a 3.7-4.0 GPA (again about average), research or volunteer experience, good recommendations, and a great sense of humor.... Does this person fit a 3.7-4.0 GPA and a 30 MCAT? Does a typical Carribean student have stats under these... YES!!! Apply to the Carribean... UNLESS and I mean UNLESS, you have time or want to waste it bringing your STATS up for the next few years if they arn't already high enough...By then you'll be about 35 and have 4 years of school plus residency... And Finally be making money when your forty, plus paying off loans, etc...Maybe buy a house when you 50, and pay your practice off when your 60! Just a worst case scenario that is possible... You might get in with a 3.4-3.5 and a 27 (MIGHT) Also, based on "Shots" I actually know, can be biased against an older applicant, where's the Carribean older applicants are the norm...This doesn't apply to all the schools though...By recruiting the younger, the AMA gets more use out of a doc based on their age becuase they can practice longer... I will say come down to you or a 22 year old with similar stats, you won't be considered just because the other 22 year old has more potential to practice longer... Even though the 22 year old isn't a pharmD, it won't make a difference as a practicing physician in the long run...Good Day...
B
Blade28
Unfortunately graduate GPAs don't count for that much in the med school admissions process - at best they're seen as a "nice" extra-curricular. Your undergrad GPA remains separate from your graduate GPA, and the former is the one that really needs to be up to snuff.
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Unlike what was previous stated, your GPA is competitive for DO schools. If you score at least 27+ you would have a good shot at DO schools. IMHO, you should focus on studying for the MCAT and shadowing a couple doctors including some DO doctors. Sounds like your leaning towards primary care in underserved areas, then I believe DO school would be prefer for you. Just my opinion though. Good Luck.
Also, a DO can get into MD othro programs (granted it is tough) and DOs also have there own othro programs. For the most part they are similar programs with some little differences.
if the undergrad gpa is to be considered separate from the pharmacy school gpa...considering this is a 6 yr program...would the first two yrs of pharmacy be considered the undergrad portion and the last 4 considered grad?....considering traditional undergrad is 4 yrs...would I have to just calculate my first two yrs of pharm or my first two (pre-pharm) with the next two (p1 and p2)?....a bit confusing I know...any kind of help would be greatly appreciated!
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..goodb29..so many advised has be given to you already...this is what I'll do if I were you:score high on the MCAT (>30), apply broadly MD/DO schools. We all know you've a lower undergrad GPA however, it wouldn't hurt if you apply with a solid MCAT score. I'll highly recom that you apply to U.S Med Sch first before venturing to the Caribbean.
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You mention an excellent creed. I was a business major and just..it was like lightning. I started to feel hollow. I want to be part of something and help people. Many can argue businesses and pharmacists do it in their own right, which is true. Still, there's nothing like keeping someone alive so they can see their children.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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Contact AMCAS and ask for instructions. Offhand, I can't think of any of the regulars in this forum who made the PharmD-to-MD/DO jump, so we won't be able to answer this for you.
Just FYI for the rest of you, this is an old thread from a year and a half ago that someone bumped up. I'm not saying you shouldn't still give the OP advice, just that s/he may no longer be around to read it.
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I happened to work in an ER that had two attendings who were previously pharmacists, so you aren't alone. I'm not 100% sure, but I think both were DOs for what it is worth...
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I'm not sure if this differs between schools, but as a current med school applicant (in pharm school), the way I had it was that the first 4 years (including my P1 and P2 year) were the undergrad GPA. The last 2 years were graduate (well actually, my P3 year was my entire grad GPA since I'm currently a P4 and rotations are P/F). However, the reason I had classified my coursework in this manner was that my undergrad/pharmacy institution also had classified the first 4 years as undergrad and the last 2 as grad for tuition purposes (P1 and P2 year costed less than the last two years...). I will also note that my AMCAS was submitted and verified without a problem, so the way I did it appears to be OK. I think, though, that it might still be best to double check with people from AMCAS and also from your undergrad/instituation.
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I'm also a pharm student applying to med school this year. My first two years were my "undergrad" and all the actual pharmacy courses were considered grad. I talked to AMCAS and some of the schools that I was applying to in order to find out. However if I took a course that was not pharmacy, I listed it as undergrad even if it was during my 3rd, 4th, or 5th year. I guess it might depend on your pharm school though. Take a look at a copy of your transcript, it should shed some light. I wish could I had listed the pharm courses as undergrad though it would have improved my GPA even if only a little!
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rx515, you probably could have done it either way. AMCAS doesn't really know what to do with pharmacy coursework, and will generally verify whatever you record. So unless your transcript explicitly says that you're enrolled in the Graduate School, you can count it however you want.
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Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead, but I was curious if anyone figured out if AMCAS would distinguish the undergrad/grad gpa. I am currently in my third year of pharm school, and trying to plan accordingly so I can enroll into medical school the following fall after graduation.
Thanks in advance for any info/tips!
Thanks in advance for any info/tips!
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I kind of have a question along the same lines as pharmacy85... I did not complete a BS and went straight from doing 3 years of undergrad to pharmacy school. I guess I am technically a "grad student," but the most I have ever graduated is high school. My question is, because I have not completed a degree, can I hypothetically count my pharmacy grades along with my ug grades on pharmcas? Sorry if this is a stupid question, I have an inkling it is.
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and by Pharmcas I mean AMCAS
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God I hated PharmCas, Can't wait to go through the whole thing over again! : sarcasm :
I was in a similar position as you, as I got accepted into the pharmacy program before finishing a BS, but I ended up finishing my bachelors credits, and having a big chunk of my graduate credits count for my upper level elective credits (in my school it was 24 of the 60 upper level credits) Max that you can transfer into most schools is 90 (60 undergrad-AA and 30 upper-pharm classes) so its not too far a reach to get your Bachelors.
Unless you have a phenomenal gpa (which i do not ~3.2 because I f'd up the first year of college) I suggest only applying to schools that do not require a bachelors per se, since you will possess a degree higher.
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ah, I see. good luck to you. are you planning on applying both DO and MD? I am deathly afraid of ADCOMS asking me "why the switch from pharmacy to medicine?" Lol, I currently have no answer aside from the fact that I have become disillusioned with pharmacy.
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Geez. I'd think you've already completed all of the prereqs for medical school. You've obviously got clinical experience. Take the MCAT. If a med school won't take you then that shows the adcom was comprised entirely of idiot ******s.
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No, I only plan on applying MD. I've got a year to think of answering that question, but I am trying to find an answer that will make the adcom's go "ahhhh, I see Med school is your only option". More or less, in my own words, I feel held back as a Pharmacist, I'd like more patient interaction, more say in their health care management. I started up a MTM program at my pharmacy (medication therapy management) which seemed to drive my desire even more so. I like the increased autonomy rather than just being viewed as an ancillary health care provider. Most people, who are not pharmacists, don't realize how important a pharmacist is to the field. I feel that I can use my medication knowledge to my advantage in getting through medical school, as well as taking care of the patient, especially when pt's are on 10+ meds, combating multiple disease states.
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The same way that many are with medicine >?
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I'm a P3, and I have a feeling you are going to tell me there are plenty of things I can do as a pharmacist to bring me closer to the patient, but at the end of the day, pharmacists aren't allowed to touch the patient (to a degree).
And I see that you are a resident, that's awesome! My friends were applying for residency and from what I hear it was pretty rough to get into one. What is your specialty if you don't mind me asking.
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i am actually done with residency and I am specialized in solid organ transplant. I now work with an organ transplant program. I just think some people get hooked on thinking the grass is greener.
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well, the grass is greener on the other side, due to the refraction of light, on my eyes
sorry still in mcat mode
and now i just remembered I have to write a paper on this.
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Remember that there are some pharmacists now offering patient-level medication therapy management and billing insurance companies and patients directly for such services. You don't necessarily need to become a physician if you want to work directly with patients.
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Yes and I think MTM programs are amazing, I believe in it so much that I started one at the pharmacy that I work at with the help of my Pharmacist manager. He has been great to do this for me (as he doesnt get paid extra, the company does), but I have been working at the pharmacy for a very long time and I brought up the lack of sufficient communication from explaining to a patient the first time they take a medication, to keeping up with them after years of being on the same medication. I have a great deal of respect for pharmacists, my grandfather was one, but becoming a doctor was always number one to me, I was just a little late to find the courage to pursue it. While I love my patients (I've come to know the regulars), and am elated when I know I did something to make their lives easier/better/more comfortable, it doesn't fascinate me like my counterpart. It's hard to explain in a post, and I suppose I have a year to work on my personal statement, but I have the type of personality pursue my interests, I was not doing this by attending pharmacy school, I was following in my grandfathers footsteps.
There is a ton of information that I know, and there is a vastly greater amount of information that I know I don't know...but none of this compares to how large the amount of knowledge, that I dont know, that I dont know. And this Fascinates me.
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Dr. Kim,
In your opinion, is the general reputation (or at least from what I have seen on SDN) of pharmD's applying to med school looked down upon true? Ive heard reasons such as
1. Med schools know that the PharmD can drop out at anytime and still be "successful" so they are more likely to leave
2. There is a shortage of pharmacists as is, and Adcom's don't want to take away from that
3.A pharmacist applying to a medical school is seen as "indecisive", so Adcom's are weary about the applicant "changing their mind" again.
Shedding any light on the situation would be so very greatly appreciated, thank you!
In your opinion, is the general reputation (or at least from what I have seen on SDN) of pharmD's applying to med school looked down upon true? Ive heard reasons such as
1. Med schools know that the PharmD can drop out at anytime and still be "successful" so they are more likely to leave
2. There is a shortage of pharmacists as is, and Adcom's don't want to take away from that
3.A pharmacist applying to a medical school is seen as "indecisive", so Adcom's are weary about the applicant "changing their mind" again.
Shedding any light on the situation would be so very greatly appreciated, thank you!
Most adcoms dont exactly know what to do with it because in the old days people went to school right out of college, but I disagree it doesn't mean anything.
I believe they don't make a distinction. It's all calculated with your GPA in undergrad. They compute your GPA using a simple formula that doesn't fit in distinction.
ALso, to the guys wanting to switch careers. Pharmacy definitely needs to branch into other areas, but med school is soul crushing. The 3.9 guy sounds like a good fit for medicine, but he should be aware that he has no idea what he is walking into. And there is no way med folk can explain it to him, as language does not convey the pain.
However, I do sometimes wonder if I shoul have followed the med route. I know it aint glamourous and it's not what it's cracked up to be, but doctors do get respect at work, don't have to deal with bosses or micromanagement. Their organizations control the supply. I feel like pharmacy has totally lost the point of a residcency, to control supply in the face of massive school openings. Some imagination in pushing scope of practice would be welcome too.
If that is the case with the time frame then there are some pretty pissed off u.s. medical folk. A main component is the sense of terminal loss in med school, espeically for a young man, which seven years seems like forever.
Shaving a year off of that would be bliss.
One caveat, it seems that caribean grads have a massive amount of persecution, many scramble (meaning they dont match). Also, I hear the AMA is gunning for keeping the residency slots down while U.S. med seats increase. might be over. Caribeans are considered foreign grads.
Hi,
I am a first year pharmacy student at the University of Georgia. I got into pharmacy school through the 2 year track with a 3.68 GPA, (it would have been like 3.83 if it wasn't for getting a D in ochem 2 which i retook and got a A). Anyways, I am very interested in NYU med school after i get a pharmD. I know that my pharmacy gpa will be lower than a undergrad gpa b/c its obviously harder. Will med school admissions consider a lower gpa if its a pharmacy gpa?
I am a first year pharmacy student at the University of Georgia. I got into pharmacy school through the 2 year track with a 3.68 GPA, (it would have been like 3.83 if it wasn't for getting a D in ochem 2 which i retook and got a A). Anyways, I am very interested in NYU med school after i get a pharmD. I know that my pharmacy gpa will be lower than a undergrad gpa b/c its obviously harder. Will med school admissions consider a lower gpa if its a pharmacy gpa?
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I am in a similar process as you...good luck! I don't think the adcom is going to wonder about our grades, more about our 'fickleness' and the change of profession. I have been thinking over 2 years and I still feel like I need a better answer for them
What about someone with a good, but old undergrad gpa, 3.58 sci, but a poor optometry degree, 2.67 sci, 3.0 overall? That's 120 credits to 112 undeergrad. also, is DO school that competitive these days? how are these two different grad/undergrad programs judged?
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It's getting there. The average GPA and MCAT scores are climbing.
How can it not count? Isn't it more indicative, particularly if it is in the sciences, like his pharmd? How is it viewed then? Particularlry if the undergrad grades are plus ten years?
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The admissions committee might not view it as such. I would like to think of it as more indicative of your ability but I've been told by others who have been on the admissions committee that it is not so.
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