Take prereqs/raise gpa-3yrs vs. PhD-3-4 yrs then go to med school??

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Lucky Buck

Peeping Torgo
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
38
Reaction score
0
I was planning to begin tackling my remaining prereqs this summer; If you need more info, check out my previous posts which go into more detail about my background.

Basically, 3.0 ugpa - BA in History, 3.8 gpa - MS in Biomedical science (non-thesis). I still have to take Organic I,II; Physics I,II; Calc and Bio II lab; I have all As in the other prereqs. The plan was to take the prereqs and other coursework over the next 2 years to help raise my ugpa and prep for the MCAT. In total, I was looking at 3 years before I would begin med school (assuming I was accepted the first round). I am also 32 and time is becoming more precious.

Here's where my confusion comes into play....I have an opportunity to do a PhD. The PI is aware that I want to go to med school and has agreed to allow me to take the prereqs (1/semester) while working on the PhD. He has also agreed to support me, so I won't have to teach. Because I would be coming in with a MS (No one has to teach me how to use a pipet), the PI thinks 3-4 years is being realistic.

So....for the same amount of time, 4-5 years max (I'm aware that research is not always predictable) I could pick up a PhD, get some publications, get paid, and knockout my prereqs. Also, in case something were to happen 4 years down the road that prevented me from going to med school, I would have a PhD to do something with as opposed to being in the same boat credential wise in 3 years.

I am concerned about having options and utilizing my time and accomplishing as much as I can. I also have no idea what it would be like, for example to take Organic + lab and a Neuro grad class and get my work done in the lab and make everyone happy??

For those that would suggest I speak with an admissions director....I did speak with one. I discussed my background and he suggested I take a full-time load for 4-6 semesters and volunteer. After I explained the PhD option he suggested that the PhD might be a better choice??? So, I'm in limbo. I have tried some other admins and haven't heard back. Any advice or opinions?

Members don't see this ad.
 
Just finishing up my PhD and holding acceptances for start of MD school this August.... and 39 years old. So dont worry so much about the clock... its passe.

Now with respect to the PhD... I've taken MD classes during the progression of my work and I work closely with both MD's, MD/PhD's, and PhDs. In all honesty, my thesis work makes me more prepared to become an 'above average' physician. I say this after having taken a battery of tests designed for the MDs as well as those required for my PhD. Med school is a long procession of multiple choices designed to condition you to auto-regurgitate on command and without thinking. The PhD, on the other hand requires creativity and reflection in your thinking as requisite for the design and implementation of experiments. One teaches you to think, the other encourages thoughtless response. I know these are generalities, but I have found that there is a great deal of substance to them.

Who would you prefer looking after your interests?
 
So....for the same amount of time, 4-5 years max (I'm aware that research is not always predictable) I could pick up a PhD, get some publications, get paid, and knockout my prereqs.

(1) NEVER start a PhD program unless you want a PhD and you want it for a specific reason (i.e, to become a researcher).
(2) However long you expect it to take you to finish your PhD, add a year and a half to that to get your actual time in school.
(3) NEVER start a PhD program unless you want a PhD and you want it for a specific reason.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
If you do an MD/PhD program, you get subsidized: you get out of med school with no debt. If you really want both, in my view, there's a compelling financial reason to combine them. MSTP programs are fiercely competitive, but if you can show an upward trend in your GPA and publish while you finish your prereqs, then you could be in the running.

Also, do the math and be realistic about how much you can improve your GPA. You can't really raise it more than a couple tenths of a point.

Best of luck to you.
 
I agree with the above posters. NEVER do a PhD as a back-up. Since you haven't done a thesis-based masters, you may want to figure out if doing research for 3-4 (or more) years is the thing for you. Its VERY hard to take classes while doing your thesis research, AND dealing with the random problems that arise throughout those years. The only way one can survive is to enjoy what they are doing.

Having a PhD doesn't necessarily mean a "job" after the degree, or at least a good job. As with all things academic, a lot depends on your academic merit which includes publications, your research skills, and of course grades. Most PhD students finish with just 1 publication, while some accumulate a lot more than that. Its dependent a lot on what kind of research you do too. In the end, a PhD "should" be a person who creates thing and solve problems. Thats why industry pays them the big bucks. Same applies to academia, as a professor, you must publish or perish. As "amazing" as a PhD program sounds, upon graduating, most PhDs lack the experience to jump right into industry and academia. Hence, most PhDs doing post-docs for 1-3 years. Even MD/PhDs do post-docs when they intend to go into teaching/research.

If you like research, and intend on using your PhD, then go for it. But you might want to factor in that you have to take the MCAT, which is usually takes 2-3 months to study for. You may have to take a PhD qualifying exam (orals) despite having earned a masters. Thats a 3-6 month studying effort. Those two exams alone take up most of your year, and believe me they take up a lot of time from research. The QE wasn't as ba

Speaking from personal experience, its very hard to take classes, do PhD level research, prepare for the MCAT, and tend to other PhD obligations (not to mention personal life). I'm a 2nd year PhD candidate, so I got the oral exam out of the way, but I am still taking classes to boost my GPA. I have all my pre-reqs done though, but its still tough to find good classes while finishing up my thesis. The quickest and EASIEST way to get pre-reqs done is a post-bacc program..hands down. It only takes 2 years to get pre-reqs done. For you, since you have completed the english requirement, and probably the math too, you could finish it in less then 2 years if you do summer school.

Know what you're getting into FIRST. Most of the PhD students on SDN are quite happy where they are despite having interests in going to med school. However you can probably go around looking for threads about "leaving" a PhD program and all that too. See what other people have to say. You DO NOT want to be in a position where you bail out of a PhD program for med school...or worse...become a disgruntled graduate student. Seen a few of those too as I near the end of my PhD program.
 
Thanks for the responses!

Let me address a address a couple things.

-When I said I did a non thesis MS....that was only half true. I was in a thesis program for 2 1/2 years. You've all read horror stories about tyrannical PIs; well, I had one. Despite accomplishing the goals that were laid before me, my PI kept adding things to my plate and no one in the department seemed to care that I was pushing 3 years. His mode of persuasion was....you want a good letter of recommendation, then you'll add this experiment and by the way you'll continue teaching every semester and doing yard work at my house; I am not kidding! I reached my breaking point and left to finish non-thesis at another university.

So, I've been in the ****e; I worked for a bad PI and I know what research is all about. That's why I've been very upfront about my plans with the PIs I've talked to. I'm not about to make another uninformed decision!

-As far as MD/PhD....can't do that because I still have prereqs to take and a low gpa that would probably keep me out of a program like that.

-I don't think I would have to add a year to however long it takes me to do a PhD. If I know I'll be finishing up in a given year, I can apply that year. The med school admin director indicated that I have to have graduated in order to matriculate; nothing would prevent me from applying while in a program.

-I don't think the PhD would be a waste...on the contrary, I'm considering it because part of me doesn't want to spend three years just taking classes that don't really count toward anything degree wise. I'm aware that most PhDs have to postdoc but, I just have a hard time believing that I would not be in a better position as far as securing a better position long term if (God forbid) I were unable to attend med school in four years and all I had was the same credentials I have now plus 50-60 credit hours and a ugpa that is two tenths of a point higher.

It is nice to know there are people out there doing this. Thank you for all the advice and the opinions....keep them rolling and perhaps you can help me reach some kind of conclusion.
 
Well, here are my thoughts for what they are worth. Why do you want the PhD? Do you plan to stay in research or do you want to do clinical trials?? If your main intent is to practice medicine, then in my opinion, skip the PhD. You could do your remaining pre-reqs in 4 semesters, so you could even apply for the Fall '08 class if you work hard over summers, or Fall '09 if you want to take it a little slower. Your undergrad GPA is a little lower, but mine is only slightly better, and I don't anticipate any difficulty getting into my school of choice. Plus your grad GPA does make up for that somewhat. If you are looking at top tier schools, that's a different story. But I am looking at a DO school, and some state MD schools, and have talked with people there that made it seem like my GPA was not a problem (my MCAT makes up for it).

From reading your posts, your tone suggests that you really want to do the PhD, and if you don't have anything else to do, go ahead. But if it were me, 32 is older to be beginning (I know there are many older on here, but if you ask them many say they wish they had started earlier - myself included). If you have a 5 year PhD program you're 37 or 38 starting med school. 42 when you're done, 45 if you do a 3 year residency and end up in your late 40's with huge amounts of debt, and have worked your butt off for 12 years to get there. If you do the fast track you will end up in the same place 3 years earlier, plus that 2 years of undergrad pre-reqs will be nowhere near as strenuous as the PhD program.

Just my two cents
 
I have a Ph.D., am older, and am starting med school in July. Anyway, I suggest you take a year of post-Bacc and get most or all of those pre-reqs out of the way. Do some research on the side if you have time and can work it in without messing up your grades, which should be mostly As. Give yourself some time to consider the options since you are unsure. Volunteer, shadow, and consider careers both in & outside of medicine. Talk to med students and PhD students. Talk to researchers and physicians. I'm convinced you will know within a year (or sooner) whether you want to go MD, MD/PhD, PhD --> MD or something else entirely. Pick the education for the career you want to do as your first choice.
 
I appreciate the advice, it's helping; any more opinions, life experiences? Another thing that is making this decision hard is the PhD is a sure thing, I can start immediately. There is something scary about being 32 and taking classes on a 2-3 year plan in the hopes of being accepted to medical school one day. My fear...what if I can't make it happen?

It's ironic...when I was younger, risk and chance meant nothing and I wasted a lot of time not taking my education very seriously....now I'm older and afraid to take a chance and my education/career is my number one priority????
 
I appreciate the advice, it's helping; any more opinions, life experiences? Another thing that is making this decision hard is the PhD is a sure thing, I can start immediately. There is something scary about being 32 and taking classes on a 2-3 year plan in the hopes of being accepted to medical school one day. My fear...what if I can't make it happen?

It's ironic...when I was younger, risk and chance meant nothing and I wasted a lot of time not taking my education very seriously....now I'm older and afraid to take a chance and my education/career is my number one priority????
I'm another PhD-to-MD here, just finishing my first year of med school. I'm the same age as you are. My suggestion to you would be to apply MD-only programs and then look into doing the PhD if you still want to once you get here. It is MUCH easier to go MD/PhD from an MD program than it is from a PhD program. If your grades aren't up to par for med school, well, you know what you have to do.

As for the risk problem....anything worth having in life is worth working for, and is worth fighting for. If getting that medical degree means something to you, then don't roll over and cry uncle without even trying. It's a lot easier to be a nontrad applicant to grad school than it is to be a nontrad applicant to med school, or (even worse) a nontrad applicant to MD/PhD programs. If you try and fail to get into med school, then you can still go to grad school in a year or two, but at least you'll go without kicking yourself and wondering "what if." :)

Make sure to educate yourself about this process, and go for preadmissions counseling from one of your state schools before you apply. It helped me TREMENDOUSLY. Also, look into ALL of the options (DO/PhD, MD/MS, etc.). You can check out the physician scientist forum for more ideas. Best of :luck: to you. :)
 
I appreciate the advice, it's helping; any more opinions, life experiences? Another thing that is making this decision hard is the PhD is a sure thing, I can start immediately. There is something scary about being 32 and taking classes on a 2-3 year plan in the hopes of being accepted to medical school one day. My fear...what if I can't make it happen?

It's ironic...when I was younger, risk and chance meant nothing and I wasted a lot of time not taking my education very seriously....now I'm older and afraid to take a chance and my education/career is my number one priority????

Nothing is EVER a sure thing, even med schools not like that. As a PhD student, you are dependent on funding, your PI, thesis committee, qualifying exam committee, and your research going well. This past year, there have been two classmates of mine who had to alter their plans because they lost funding, or lost lab space. They worked it out, but it delayed their work by about 6-12 months. One student this year did not pass his oral exam, and therefore is contemplating on retaking the exam, or just leaving with a masters despite already having done much of his research. Earlier this year, one student had to change PI's. He had to start a new project after working on his previous one for a year.

Murphy's Law has a much larger effect in the PhD student world. If taking classes is scary to you, then I'm not sure what to really say. Although most of my graduate school classes were just as hard or harder than med school courses (because most were med school courses), its definitely certain that med school is a lot harder than any amount of grad level or undergrad level courses due to both quantity and difficulty. Therefore if you fear at age 32, what metric will you use to gauge your capacity to handle med school classes?

In the end, med school favors undergrad GPA more so than graduate GPA. Your undergrad GPA isn't all bad, but it isn't all that good either. If you are intent on getting into med school, then you should focus on where it counts, however you should at least address these questions if you intend on pursuing a PhD:

(1) How many ADDITIONAL GRADUATE classes do you have to take. Although some may not be required for your degree, there may be electives that are necessarily in areas of defense.

(2) When will you take your oral examination to advance to candidacy. As stated, it does take some amount of time to study for this.

(3) While taking your pre-med pre-reqs, how will you study for your oral exam, do your research, take your core PhD curriculum and/or study for the MCAT?

(4) How much lab time does your research require? Are the times flexible (e.g., no time dependent experiments). The physics, and ochem labs may not be at convenient times depending on your school.

The above is certainly doable, since I'm doing it. My PI is an MD/PhD who has known me since my undergrad days. He knows that I am planning to go to med school, and thus allows me to do whatever I want to reach that goal. HOWEVER, my first priority is STILL FINISHING my PhD. If it means I drop all courses this quarter to do research, then so be it. Although your future PI is all for your future goals, you may find out that neither you or he are in control of the good and bad things that happen in research. Quality work is key, but you would want to go the easy path as well. IMO, this med school game is more or less an all or nothing response. You commit yourself fully to the endeavor, or just give up now. There's no fishing around or what not. My decision to do a PhD has never been or will be a tool to serve as a back-up "in-case" i don't get into med school. It is a tool for me to be an MD/PhD. If i don't get into med school after my PhD program, I will do a post-doc and a masters, or even a post-bacc (are there even PhD's in post-bacc programs?..lol). So yea just think about that, do what you like, but like I said somewhere, these are choices that have long lasting repercussions.
 
Just to clarify...I did not say I'm afraid to take classes. What scares me is....being 32 and....pumping so much effort into something for 2-3 years that doesn't count toward a degree or anything that would make me more marketable if things don't work out with med school. In my mind, the PhD solved that problem.

I realize I need to let go of my fear and this hang-up with being 32! The opinions and advice have been very helpful. I think I'm going to bypass the PhD and just do what I have to in order to get into med school as freakin fast as is humanly possible.

I asked myself where I would rather be in 5 years and then 10 years.... I would much rather be half way finished with med school in 5 years than wrapping up a PhD. In ten years....I would much rather be completing my residency than wrapping up my second post doc or just finishing med school!!!

Since I ultimately want to be a doctor....I should take the quickest route....after all, I'm freakin 32!!!!!!
 
God, time flies. I keep thinking that you're about to START your first year. How was it...with that PhD of yours;). Easier than expected? Or worse?;).
:laugh: Well, I'm glad that I'm not held prisoner to your memory, because I really don't want to have to repeat my entire M1 year. :p

It's going ok. Hectic. Exhausting. I'm still glad that I picked this school, but there are definitely days when I think to myself that I could be out doing a post doc right now....I told my mom this last weekend, and she said, "But Q, you told me that you were only a mediocre chemist." Way to go with the vote of confidence, Mom. :smuggrin: :p

I would say that nothing we learn in med school is conceptually difficult. It's just that there's a ton of it, and we have MUCH less control over our time compared to what I had in grad school. The one nice thing about it is that I know if I just keep getting up every morning, I'm almost certain to graduate one day. As you so eloquently pointed out, that guarantee is certainly lacking in grad school. :cool:
Lucky Buck said:
I asked myself where I would rather be in 5 years and then 10 years.... I would much rather be half way finished with med school in 5 years than wrapping up a PhD. In ten years....I would much rather be completing my residency than wrapping up my second post doc or just finishing med school!!!

Since I ultimately want to be a doctor....I should take the quickest route....after all, I'm freakin 32!!!!!!
It sounds like you should definitely go to med school then. Check into DO schools, your state schools, and others where your stats are competitive and where you think you'd be a good fit. Make your app as strong as you can, apply widely, and never look back. :luck: to you. :)
 
Top