USC makes me so mad!!!

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USCdent09 said:
I don't know how other schools operate, but USC has no F'in idea on how to run at dental school. Only 18% of the graduating class of 2007 actually graduated. Are you kidding me???? And you know what they say.... it's OUR fault. Do NOT go to this school!!! Its not worth the money we pay and crap we go through. I am going to take my Part 1 boards in July in try to get the hell out of dodge to another school!
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:laugh:

Old news...
Why do I get the feeling that this is the same person under a new alias?

Also, if it's so bad (it very well could be as bad as you say), why don't the students do something about it? Are there class representatives that are communicating with the faculty and administration? 18% graduate because they didn't finish their requirements or because of other reasons? Please elaborate. "Other reasons" are hard to address, but if it's due to meeting clinical requirements then is it the fault of the student for not finishing or the fault of the faculty for reasons I don't know? Please elaborate. Thanks!
 
Columbia07 said:
:laugh:

Old news...
Why do I get the feeling that this is the same person under a new alias?
Click to expand...

Check this out Columbia, the disgust and disatisfaction about the program is general. Once you get here, ask ANY 09 their thoughts about this situation and you will see the sentiment around the school. The frustrations are so many that we need to voice our opinions and SDN is a perfect means to do so. I really don't want to scare you or anything but sadly this is the situation at SC.
 
[
Dude, I'm so pissed at SC that this year I might rout for the UCLA. My 2007 friends are so frustrated about not being able to finish their requirements successfully. The worst thing is that we will be in the same position coming our senior year. SC should just make it official and become a 5-year school instead of 4
 
[

I think we owe an obligation to the SDN PreDental Community to let them know, they BETTER ASK ABOUT GRADUATION RATES AT SC Dental before committing to this scam of a school.
 
Columbia07 said:
:laugh:

Old news...
Why do I get the feeling that this is the same person under a new alias?

Also, if it's so bad (it very well could be as bad as you say), why don't the students do something about it? Are there class representatives that are communicating with the faculty and administration? 18% graduate because they didn't finish their requirements or because of other reasons? Please elaborate. "Other reasons" are hard to address, but if it's due to meeting clinical requirements then is it the fault of the student for not finishing or the fault of the faculty for reasons I don't know? Please elaborate. Thanks!
Click to expand...


Nothing changes. Every class has screamed and nothing gets done.
 
People fighting for chairs...this isn't anything new, at least for the other schools I interviewed at. Is this the only reason why people are not graduating on time, because of the limited number of chairs? I have close friends in the class of 09' and 10' and they love it (maybe they're not being truthful, but I don't know why they would hide their resentment). I went to SC for undergrad so I know a lot about the school.

I understand that most people hate PBL and say that it leaves gaps in your education, but if you stay on top of your game and read the books that everyone else reads at other dental schools, I don't see how you wouldn't be some what prepared for the boards (plus using the board prep material). Maybe I'm wrong, but I tend to think that 80% of the lectures I've ever attend were the biggest waste of my time. Having a professor read a powerpoint to me is not improving my grasp of the information; however, reading the text for myself or seeing the material in a clinical case has always been better for me. Obviously we all have our own learning styles, and maybe many people went into SC' thinking they could handle the PBL curriculum and ended up regretting it.

Is the administration gaining anything from not improving the graduation rates (besides an extra semester of tuition, which is mostly offset by funding the materials, labs, clinics for the students staying), or improving the PBL curriculum? Also, what do you guys think of the new proposed clinic on the 2nd floor? http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/update/may07/CLINIC_clinic_redesign.html

Thanks for the input.
 
lionelhutz said:
Nothing changes. Every class has screamed and nothing gets done.
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This quote seems to be the theme of many dental schools ... I would like to know if there are ANY d-school administration that actually listens to students' concerns. For the most part, they really REALLY don't seem to care. You're lucky if they're just apathetic and don't set out to purposely exploit you.

I miss the naive, optimistic days of pre-dent.
 
They could possibly close the clinic (one summer is probably all they would need) and allow students to complete their requirements at an off-site location.

So, you like the PBL curriculum?
 
They said that they will probably redo the clinic during the summer two week break. The problem is funding. They only have half of the money they need.

It doesn't look like they're going to get the money in time. They're probably just going to paint some walls and plaster a couple of plasma tvs across the clinic and change some signs. they're only doing this for the accreditation thats coming up in the spring of 2008. just some touch ups. as it stands, nothing that will impact anyones education.

I just wanted to add something else.
Up until now, I believe that USC has given me a great education. Yeah, PBL sucks, is stupid, and you really don't learn much from it. But, I have learned a lot. This is because of the way the system is setup I have a lot of time to study by myself. For example, yesterday was the first time I stepped inside school for almost two weeks. We haven't had much to do and the PBL system can be manipulated so that it doesn't waste your time (Trust me, PBL and the process is a major waste of time.. ask any faculty member). What have I been doing? I've been studying my as.s of for the boards. I love USC for the freedom it gives me. Preclinically, I have learned A LOT!!! The faculty is good. Sometimes it can be a headache and things might be unorganized, but I believe its like that at every school. The first two years are a major change from undergrad. You have to do things on your own. Listen to others above and see what they have to say. Learn from peoples experiences.
The clinic is the problem. It doesn't seem like anyone listens to us. I don;t know why. Do they not care? Do they make money off of doing this to us? Are they trying to impress someone by making it difficult for us? Do they just want us to suffer? Who knows. I just know that nothing is changing and a lot of students are paying for it (financially, mentally, and with their time).
 
If you guys believe that the school is not providing the quality clinical experience you deserve I suggest you look at the ADA website for the accreditation requirements and if the school is violating them, you can file a complaint with the ADA comission on accreditation. Just a thought!
 
This is all too familiar. There are some facts that I thing every predent and dental student should know at the earliest possible time:

Most dental schools don't give a dam about their students.

Most dental schools will not support you through your rigorous dental education.

Most dental instructors are professional curmudgeons who happen to be dentists.

Most administrators will do nothing in the avenue of change no matter how much you complain, write petitions, or scream and holler; no matter how valid and obvious your complaints.

Mostly your compensation for enduring the foolishness detailed above is the high salary of a dentist and that you will help patients who have no idea how much you have endured to call yourself doctor.

Most dental school alumni will not give any money to their school due to the predatory nature most dental schools exist.
 
How can it be the student's fault with only an 18% graduation rate?? Up until now I am been pretty supportive of USC. I do like PBL, it really fit my learning style, and I really think that I retained more that I would have in a traditional lecture setting. I only studied 40-60 hours for NDB1 and easily passed(84).


I truly believe that I will be more than a competent dentist when I graduate. However I am completely dissastified with the way the clinic operates. If UoP can graduate their students in 3 years, there is absolutely no excuse for USC's dismal graduation rate since we have a four year program. A senior told me that if I wanted to graduate on time that I would have to walk on the "dark side" , which she meant to not follow the rules.

For instance every pt is supposed to have the following done once a year: 1) DAta Collection- this take place in one appointment which includes for every pt ( diagnostic casts, perio probing, update xrays, E & I, Md Hx update). 2) Tx planning appointment ( Established updated Tx plan which takes 1 appt) 3) Perio Tx - can be 1 or more additional appointments

Many of my patients that have been transferred to me from upperclassmen have Tx plans that are 2 years old and haven't had a cleaning for 2 or more years, yet in order for me the work on the patient (ethically) I have to spend at mininmum 3 appoitments just to bring them up to date, before I can start any restorative tx. I currently have 50 pts to manage and if I was Treat every pt by the book, then that would take me 150 appointments + adding 10-20% additinal appointments due to cancellations that brings me to 180 appointments without doing any restorative work. We have 12 possible appointments that we can book per week, so that means that I can spend 15 straight weeks, working my butt off, but not getting any restorative therapy completed. With the mandatory rotations, lectures, presentations, clinic closures etc, it would easily take me more than 1 semester to bring my pts up to date.

However half of my patients I picked up through our Urgent Care Clinic, so in order to do any restorative work on these pt's it would take approximately 9 visits before I perform any restorative work. (1st appt the day I actually see them in the emergency clinic, 2nd appointment- taking our pt through the patient admitting clinic, 3rd appt- data collection, 4th appt- Tx plan, 5th-8th appt for quad Sc/rp, 9th appt periodontal re-evaluation/tissue check. I could skip the 5th-8th appointment by referring them to dental hygiene, but they book up so fast that it can take forever to get a patient out of there.

With these 50 pts, I only have 1 that is Tx planned for class II amalgams, for which we need to take 3 competency exams on, I don't have any full denture cases ( I think we need 7 arches to graduate).

Obviously I won't be able to see all of my currently assigned pts, so I am trying to figure out which ones I can drop or transfer.

So far I have treated every pt by the book, per USC standards, but I feel mounting pressure to "walk on the dark side" so that I can have a chance at graduating on time.

Out of the 17-18% who graduated on time, I would like to see how many of them have gone to extraordinary measures to graduate on time i.e. paying for their pt's procedures, placing ads in the LA TIMES, doing dental work on their family members. Both of my friends are having family fly in from out of state just so they can meet some of their graduation requirements.

Thankfully we have an awesome football team to watch, which almost makes my $65k tuition worth it!
 
NVDental said:
How can it be the student's fault with only an 18% graduation rate?? Up until now I am been pretty supportive of USC. I do like PBL, it really fit my learning style, and I really think that I retained more that I would have in a traditional lecture setting. I only studied 40-60 hours for NDB1 and easily passed(84).


I truly believe that I will a more than competent dentist when I graduate. However I am completely dissastified with the way the clinic operates. If UoP can graduate their students in 3 years, there is absolutely no excuse for USC's dismal graduation rate since we have a four year program. A senior told me that if I wanted to graduate on time that I would have to walk on the "dark side" , which she meant to not follow the rules.

For instance every pt is supposed to have the following done once a year: 1) DAta Collection- this take place in one appointment which includes for every pt ( diagnostic casts, perio probing, update xrays, E & I, Md Hx update). 2) Tx planning appointment ( Established updated Tx plan which takes 1 appt) 3) Perio Tx - can be 1 or more additional appointments

Many of my patients that have been transferred to me from upperclassmen have Tx plans that are 2 years old and haven't had a cleaning for 2 or more years, yet in order for me the work on the patient (ethically) I have to spend at mininmum 3 appoitments just to bring them up to date, before I can start any restorative tx. I currently have 50 pts to manage and if I was Treat every pt by the book, then that would take me 150 appointments + adding 10-20% additinal appointments due to cancellations that brings me to 180 appointments without doing any restorative work. We have 12 possible appointments that we can book per week, so that means that I can spend 15 straight weeks, working my butt off, but not getting any restorative therapy completed. With the mandatory rotations, lectures, presentations, clinic closures etc, it would easily take me more than 1 semester to bring my pts up to date.

However half of my patients I picked up through our Urgent Care Clinic, so in order to do any restorative work on these pt's it would take approximately 9 visits before I perform any restorative work. (1st appt the day I actually see them in the emergency clinic, 2nd appointment- taking our pt through the patient admitting clinic, 3rd appt- data collection, 4th appt- Tx plan, 5th-8th appt for quad Sc/rp, 9th appt periodontal re-evaluation/tissue check. I could skip the 5th-8th appointment by referring them to dental hygiene, but they book up so fast that it can take forever to get a patient out of there.

With these 50 pts, I only have 1 that is Tx planned for class II amalgams, for which we need to take 3 competency exams on, I don't have any full denture cases ( I think we need 7 arches to graduate).

Obviously I won't be able to see all of my currently assigned pts, so I am trying to figure out which ones I can drop or transfer.

So far I have treated every pt by the book, per USC standards, but I feel mounting pressure to "walk on the dark side" so that I can have a chance at graduating on time.

Out of the 17-18% who graduated on time, I would like to see how many of them have gone to extraordinary measures to graduate on time i.e. paying for their pt's procedures, placing ads in the LA TIMES, doing dental work on their family members. Both of my friends are having family fly in from out of state just so they can meet some of their graduation requirements.

Thankfully we have an awesome football team to watch, which almost makes my $65k tuition worth it!
Click to expand...

WOW! Do other schools require so many appointments before starting the restorative work? NINE appointments seems simply ridiculous! Can you complete some of your requirements at an off-site location (e.g. LA County, Mobile Clinic, etc)?
 
The off site clinics are great if you have operative credits to get out of the way (drill and fill). I don't think anyone has any trouble graduating because they are missing those. But the problem is fixed cases (crowns and bridges) and competency exams. The off site clinics don't help with those much. Correct me if i'm wrong, though.
 
NVDental said:
For instance every pt is supposed to have the following done once a year: 1) DAta Collection- this take place in one appointment which includes for every pt ( diagnostic casts, perio probing, update xrays, E & I, Md Hx update). 2) Tx planning appointment ( Established updated Tx plan which takes 1 appt) 3) Perio Tx - can be 1 or more additional appointments



However half of my patients I picked up through our Urgent Care Clinic, so in order to do any restorative work on these pt's it would take approximately 9 visits before I perform any restorative work. (1st appt the day I actually see them in the emergency clinic, 2nd appointment- taking our pt through the patient admitting clinic, 3rd appt- data collection, 4th appt- Tx plan, 5th-8th appt for quad Sc/rp, 9th appt periodontal re-evaluation/tissue check. I could skip the 5th-8th appointment by referring them to dental hygiene, but they book up so fast that it can take forever to get a patient out of there.
Click to expand...

Same here at Case dental school. It takes that many appts before I can actually do any restorative work. Thanks goodness, we have our own chair here in the clinic and we can actually book up to 3-4 appts per day. Last year, I'd spent my entire summer doing admitting and cleaning all day long and did about 3 restorations 😀😀😀😀
 
yo genius, seems like you just entered your 3rd year. Have you cut any teeth on 3rd floor yet? If you just finished your perio sophmore block, why don't you start talking when you enter clinic and do real work? How you gonna explain there is 2008 that already finished 15 indirect units? Once you get your degree and start your own practice, what ya gonna do? Sit at your small office and waiting for patients to show up with cash? You gonna start yelling at your assistants to recruit more patients? If you really think that you should just quit dentistry now or work for someone else for your entire dental career. Nobody asked you to stay and you are free to quit anyday. Oh wait, one of the biggest complaints from students is well my senior did not give me any patients. Is that what ya gonna say when you do not have patients on your practice? Nobody gave me any patient when I opened up my practice. Well, if that's how you gonna think, I really recommend you not to waste any money by staying at dental school.
 
boyla4685 said:
yo genius, seems like you just entered your 3rd year. Have you cut any teeth on 3rd floor yet? If you just finished your perio sophmore block, why don't you start talking when you enter clinic and do real work? How you gonna explain there is 2008 that already finished 15 indirect units? Once you get your degree and start your own practice, what ya gonna do? Sit at your small office and waiting for patients to show up with cash? You gonna start yelling at your assistants to recruit more patients? If you really think that you should just quit dentistry now or work for someone else for your entire dental career. Nobody asked you to stay and you are free to quit anyday. Oh wait, one of the biggest complaints from students is well my senior did not give me any patients. Is that what ya gonna say when you do not have patients on your practice? Nobody gave me any patient when I opened up my practice. Well, if that's how you gonna think, I really recommend you not to waste any money by staying at dental school.
Click to expand...

So what you're saying is that it is this student's fault that he doesn't have patients? And you're comparing being a student to running a business? Thats a very poor line of reasoning. As as student he should be able to concentrate on learning his profession and the school that he is paying money to should do its part and provide him with adequate numbers of patients. If it cannot do that then it needs to recruit more patients or accept less students. Obviously as a business owner it becomes your responsibility to find your own patients but that is an entirely different situation than being a student.
 
Midoc said:
So what you're saying is that it is this student's fault that he doesn't have patients? And you're comparing being a student to running a business? Thats a very poor line of reasoning. As as student he should be able to concentrate on learning his profession and the school that he is paying money to should do its part and provide him with adequate numbers of patients. If it cannot do that then it needs to recruit more patients or accept less students. Obviously as a business owner it becomes your responsibility to find your own patients but that is an entirely different situation than being a student.
Click to expand...

you're definitely right... the school should be facilitating in the appointments/patient-pool... as students, you shouldnt be having to deal with those issues.... thats why there are problems at sc... im sure that they will fix it... now that it has become a major issue....
 
Midoc said:
So what you're saying is that it is this student's fault that he doesn't have patients? And you're comparing being a student to running a business? Thats a very poor line of reasoning. As as student he should be able to concentrate on learning his profession and the school that he is paying money to should do its part and provide him with adequate numbers of patients. If it cannot do that then it needs to recruit more patients or accept less students. Obviously as a business owner it becomes your responsibility to find your own patients but that is an entirely different situation than being a student.
Click to expand...

you're definitely right... the school should be facilitating in the appointments/patient-pool... as students, you shouldnt be having to deal with these things.... thats why there are problems at sc... im sure that they will fix it... now that it has become a major issue....
 
philchungski said:
you're definitely right... the school should be facilitating in the appointments/patient-pool... as students, you shouldnt be having to deal with these things.... thats why there are problems at sc... im sure that they will fix it... now that it has become a major issue....
Click to expand...

So, are they going to fix it? Any new news?
 
helico said:
So, are they going to fix it? Any new news?
Click to expand...

Nothing so far. The directors and deans are actually pissed and "disappointed" with the students for trying to do something about continually bending over and taking it up the backside. I guess their - daddy's going to punish you if you disobey me - has worked pretty well for them in the past. They also like to fall back on the ol' reliable: vague non-committal answers about things that may happen somewhere in the distant future. If that doesn't work they usually either blow us off or tell us that we can do something. Which usually involves us spending a lot of time and effort leading to no real changes. That way, when the class finally realizes its totally screwed and that faculty have just pawned us off and diverted our attention, its actually to late for us to do anything because graduation time is already upon us and we are completely sick of this place anyways and just want to get the he!! out.
 
It appears that the administration has listened to our concerns and is going to implent some major changes by September. The school is going to handle the scheduling and management of patient care, but we will have mandatory clinical attendance ( I am there everyday anyway). They will also be emphasizing that graduation is competency based, not requirement based, so the emphasis will be patient management, rather than on competing "X" number of crowns, dentures etc. More details to come!
 
I hope you are correct for sanity sakes, but I wouldn't believe anything from the administration until it happens. Actions speak much louder than words, and I for one would always be cautious about asking for things that should already be in place. Kudos to you guys just the same.
 
Thanks to all of these great upperclassmen and their hard work to get things changed at USC. Now people like me that are part of the incoming class will have a better experience and a chance to get out on time. Thanks again for all of the hard work that the other classeshave put forth for all of our benefit:meanie:
 
youngmc27 said:
Thanks to all of these great upperclassmen and their hard work to get things changed at USC. Now people like me that are part of the incoming class will have a better experience and a chance to get out on time. Thanks again for all of the hard work that the other classeshave put forth for all of our benefit:meanie:
Click to expand...

haha.. don't be naive enough to believe things will magically change now.

There certainly may be some changes, but believe them when you see them.
 
all I was saying was thanks for the help to those who have and continue to work hard for the betterment of their fellow students RELAX!!!
 
I've never been to USC and can't specifically comment on its dental curriculum.

I went to NYU.( and I'm never going to return to that hole. )

The problems that you guys are complaining of........makes me actually WANT have went to USC instead of NYU. Don't get me wrong; I know USC students have it hard.

I could write a 25 page essay ( single spaced and font size of 10 using standard margins in MS Word ) on why NYU dental should close up. But I'm too sick and tired from other problems to have the luxury of doing so. ( and I frankly don't care if anyone chooses to go to NYU anyway. It's their loss; not mine. )

So really, don't make USC seem a lot worse than it really is. Unlike med schools, there are ONLY two dental schools across the country that come close to being commended.
 
So really, don't make USC seem a lot worse than it really is. Unlike med schools, there are ONLY two dental schools across the country that come close to being commended[/U].[/QUOTE]

And which two dental schools may they be...........?
 
Probably those schools with the least amount of complaints and most efficient organization. Funny, how those two seem to always codify. I would guess that UOP would be one of them, but I don't attend there so I can't say for sure. Still, I don't ever here students from there ranting and raving about anything, which is somewhat comforting. Maybe they are too busy studying like mad, but I suppose there is more to the story.

Dental school is hard work, but it can be hell when the respective administration is dysfunctional and seemingly unable to right itself. Problems are to be expected, but professionals are also expected to come up with solutions before things get out of control. Sadly, this doesn't seem to occur as often as it should.
 
I'm curious to know if there are still problems going on? I finished in '05, did a GPR residency and now own my own practice but I don't have too much contact back there anymore.
 
I am only a sophmore and I know there is still a lot to be done but the school is getting better from what I have seen. I know that around 80% of last years class got out on time if not higher. I also know of a few seniors that are done or very close to it know. I really enjoy being here and the changes that have been made are helping a lot. Also we are getting a new Dean soon so more changes should be coming. I look forward to what the future changes may bring.
 
MaxAnn said:
This is all too familiar. There are some facts that I thing every predent and dental student should know at the earliest possible time:

Most dental schools don't give a dam about their students.

Most dental schools will not support you through your rigorous dental education.

Most dental instructors are professional curmudgeons who happen to be dentists.

Most administrators will do nothing in the avenue of change no matter how much you complain, write petitions, or scream and holler; no matter how valid and obvious your complaints.

Mostly your compensation for enduring the foolishness detailed above is the high salary of a dentist and that you will help patients who have no idea how much you have endured to call yourself doctor.

Most dental school alumni will not give any money to their school due to the predatory nature most dental schools exist.
Click to expand...


Amen. I really, really hate my school and pretty much all my faculty and classmates but I am kinda stupid enough to still send them donation. I am hopeful it really it go into the student scholarship or loan program as adverstised.
 
what are your requirements? Is it by points or by procedures?
 
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